I'll say this again: as problematic as the prequels are in their execution, I think the overall plot about the rise of tyranny and the fall of Anakin and the Jedi order is a gold star plot in concept, and is pretty well executed in the Clone Wars animated series.
The prequels just suffered from having Lucas as the director, that's all. That's why we have wooden acting and strange dialogue decision. Had he let someone else take a crack at his script and served the role he had in the original trilogy, it would likely have turned out better. But even then, the prequels are good movies and the plot is still Star Wars at its finest.
I don’t think even the most critics of the prequels can deny that on paper the narrative works (save for some details and beats). I think the execution puts some people off.
What I always tend to notice is that I don't really enjoy watching them all that much but I consistently remember them as being great. I think that's because, as has been said, the big ideas and the aesthetic (the visuals, the design of Corusant and Naboo, the droids, the military tech and most of the CGI) are actually really good even though the action is kind of spotty and the script is bad. The politics at play, the interesting role of the Jedi before and during the war, the Jedi order's organization, Anakin's overall story, the emotional final confrontation between Anakin and Obi Wan, it's all really good.
@@johnmorrell3187 and that's what made the clone wars so appealing. Despite it being a kids show, you could see much more competent execution of some of the big ideas. The sequel series, for all its polish and poise, has a very weak big story arc.
I mean, tbf, there were a few years between eps 3 and 4. Vader got his armor upgraded to a Halloween costume (/s). And the Empire was actually kind of a lateral move from the Republic, since the Senate passed over power to Palpatine. So all the clone troopers gradually became stormtroopers, Republic Star Destroyers gradually got phased out, etc. Infrastructure was already there. (Plus Palpatine had a bunch of secret stuff going in the Outer Rim, the uncharted part of the galaxy. That's where Vader/Mustafaar (sp?) was created/is, the lava planet from Ep 3. If the leaks are right, and my gut says there's some truth to them, this will be lame but important in Episode IX.)
My new headcanon is that Palpatine has no idea what he is doing. Everything just somehow works for him just so he can organize insanely contrived conundrums for our main characters.
"Kylo Ren didn't join the fascists because he was seduced by fascist ideology, Kylo Ren is a fascist figurehead out of spite" - which describes just about every edgelord on the internet these days.
I mean, yeah, since TLJ basically all but threw out Snoke being involved in Kylo's backstory, his current backstory is that Luke turned on him because of the dark side in him (obviously a terrible thing to do on Luke's part, but I'm not touching the monster that is TLJ Luke's characterization right now) and his response was to...kill all of his fellow students, who did literally nothing wrong, and join a fascist minority party and become it's figurehead because...Luke hated fascists. Okay, sure, that definitely seems like a response a normal person would have.
People who feel rejected and isolated from mainstream society deserve a voice. It might feel good to put people down but the more you do, the angrier they get.
@@joemcmahon206 At the same time, these people can't be coddled and expect that no one will react negatively to anything they say, no matter how virulent their opinions are. So they shouldn't be shut out, but they have to be willing to work with others at some level rather than just be accommodated.
@@Nathan-kk6lb They do say that Snoke was corrupting Kylo via long distance telepathic force voicemails over an extended period of time until he finally destroyed the academy. Though this might explain why he slaughtered everyone, it is still very unsatisfying. Evil through mind control or similar influences doesn't make for very compelling villains since they're not responsible for what they've done to some degree. Evil just "happened" to them. Kylo was good until Snoke made him not that. His absentee parents weren't such a strong influence on his turn to the darkside after all because spooky space man transformed his mind from a distance. He's less of a character, and more of an object. Edit: a character who's more of a blunt instrument used for evil by the main villain can actually work fine and be compelling, but Kylo is not portrayed as such a brute. The audience is very clearly supposed to sympathize with him, and the long distance force corruption makes this more difficult.
And then Disney panicked when they decided to pander to the crazies and have Rey kiss this guy so now he needs to be a “good person” so they honest to god create him a THIRD new backstory in the comics that no one but diehard fans read which makes this story completely inaccessible to those who just casually watch the movies, where no actually he did nothing wrong and Palpatine from beyond the grave somehow murdered his classmates so that makes it socially acceptable for him to kiss Rey now because he only did a little fascism and father stabbing ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The ketchup--which is RED--is clearly a symbol for communism, and how it sneaks into the background of our lives while we are distracted discussing fascism.
In all seriousness, there was the whole conversation between Anakin and Palpatine about Darth Plagueis. That was the only well-acted scene in the prequel trilogy, from start to finish.
Bloodline wrongfully used "centrist" (somebody in the middle of the political spectrum) instead of "centralist" (somebody who prefers centralization of power as opposed to federalists)
I don't think it was much "wrong" as it was "happening in a different setting than real life politics". I really liked that, and coupled with the fact that "populists" (a word mostly used as an insult IRL) to be sort of the good guys in Bloodline.
Right, but it was a book written in the English language, and it chose to use existing English words that have established political meanings in our world, while choosing to use them in very different ways, differences that weren't deliberate, that didn't contribute to the story. The words were used to sound "political-ish" but clearly without an awareness of their original meaning. To readers who also have no awareness of the words' meaning in our world, this works ok. To readers who are informed about the topic, it's a confusing and irritating weakness.
@@keithklassen5320 Indeed. It spreads an incorrect meaning of an existing term. It doesn't help people who are introduced to the term "centrist" for the first time tgrough Bloodline
Actually, the Expanded Universe/Legends did expand more on the ideology of the Empire which wasn’t really touched on in the movies themselves. This was partially used as an explanation of why the Empire only used human characters in a series where we clearly see the existence of many aliens in the first movie. To create an explanation, the Empire is explicitly said to be xenophobic and discriminate or enslave non-humans. And the further away from humanoid you got, the more they were oppressed. Some were even deemed non-sentient. There was also an undercurrent of misogyny in the EU Empire. Again, this was a way of explaining the lack of female characters in the movie. This, however, was largely unspoken unless the story was talking about an exception to that rule. Characters like Ysanne Isard or Natasi Daala had multi-book arcs and served as major villains, but they were said to have succeeded despite the general disregard for women in the Imperial military. Of note is the three main architects of the Empire themselves are exceptions to the one or both rules. Grand Moff Tarkin was virulently xenophobic and actually kept Admiral Ackbar (It’s a trap) as a slave, barely considering him better than an animal. But Tarkin also supported Daala (who was also his mistress) and didn’t seem to have issues with women in positions of power. Vader never seemed to have problems with aliens or women in all the incarnations I can think of. The most interesting was Palpatine. Depending on the book or comic, he was either xenophobic or merely using that ideology to ensure the loyalty of those in power that did think that way. There’s actually a fair amount of evidence that Palpatine himself very much only had a personal ideology. He cared only about his own power and goals instead of the glory of the Empire. Because of that, he used everyone fairly equally. His master and first apprentice were both non-humans. He even promoted another non-human, Thrawn, to one of the highest levels of power in the Empire. As far as women, Palpatine seemingly was fairly equal in his treatment. He was responsible for Isard becoming a high level official and used women just as often as men as his personal assassins and agents. The EU was filled with fascinating takes on how those in the upper echelons of power during the Empire actually functioned and what they believed. The new Disney canon, however, actually has been steering the Empire away from xenophobia and misogyny. Women started showing up in positions of power in the Imperial military as a normal occurrence. While there might be an undercurrent of xenophobia left over for some characters, like Thrawn (he was carried over to the new canon), it wasn’t anywhere near the extent the EU had it. humanocentrism was still a thing, but not as much emphasis. And just to be clear, xenophobia/humanocentrism here is the closest analogue Star Wars has for racism. In neither the EU nor Disney Canon was the race of a character ever of importance. Humans were just grouped together.
According to "The Book of Sith" (legends continuity) Palpatine himself enforced the xenophobia with "divide and conquer" in mind. The discrimination will push the aliens into leashing out but due to the ubiquity of it they won't simply unify against the government but develop hostility towards humans in general. They will riot which in return allows and justifies even further observation and totalitarian measures. These measures the empire will blame on the xenos and thus raise hostility from the humans towards them. A vicious circle aiming at dividing the people to prevent them to unify against the empire. Another example would be the planetary and sector governors. Palpatine often ordered them to spy on each other with promises of rich rewards if they find proof of conspiricies. He specially did this with governors that were close to each other in order to spread mistrust and force these governors to stay close to Palpatine.
"[Palpatine] cared only about his own power and goals instead of the glory of the Empire." But that's exactly the point... what WERE his actual goals, what did he want to actually DO with his power?
The downside of the new trilogy is that so much of the backstory and motivation of the First Order is buried in the books and simply not explored within the cinematic universe. Is the First Order neo-fascist? Yes and you can see a lot of parallels with how Nazism arose in Germany after they had lost WWI. They scapegoat the rebels and the Jedi as the reason everything failed, without looking at the context of the atrocities committed by the Empire. Then, they capitalize on the iconography of an older, perceived powerful culture (Nazis with Rome/Nordic imagery and ideology). Finally, you create your ur-fascist hero (Bismark for the German people), though the real target for this in the new series is actually more Thrawn/Tarkin and not Vader. Hux is set up as the Hitler replacement here, though more conditioned and less intelligent. In the books, this is directly alluded to as Hux was brought in as a child purposely to mold him into this figure. Another issue is why is there so much complacency in the universe as the First Order arises. Again, the books make a couple points. 1. Under the empire, most of the needs of the common people are met. Despite how terrible the Empire might have been, there are many planets suffering from food/resource shortages after it's collapse. 2. There are still loyalists who would view the rebels as villains and Luke as the greatest threat. To many family members of those that died on both Death Stars, these people are terrorists. Lastly, Kylo is complex for the same reason pointed out in this video. He doesn't care about the First Order or their ambitions other than how, once he gains power, he can use them to achieve his ambitions. His issues with authority are a big point in the books and understandable when you consider that he had two absentee parents (Han didn't want to settle down and be a dad and Leia was too busy in her diplomatic career. Then you get Luke who isn't honest with him about Vader (like Obi Wan and his "certain point of view") and fails to warn Kylo as Yoda did for Luke in the cave on Degoba. Turns out, Luke struggles with a bit of the dark-side pull as one would who would likely exhibit some form of PTSD once they reflected on what they had done in wartime. However, he's never honest with Kylo about it and it plays into how/why he gets manipulated by Snoke. If Kylo has a mirror with the Nazi imagery, it's more akin to Himmler than Hitler. Kylo is fascinated by the occult aspects of the old Sith (as noted in the books) and is exemplified with his leadership of the Knights of Ren. His fascination within the force is as an occultist, looking to bring back the true power of religious mysticism.
problem is in Star Wars it makes no sense because we are talking about a Galactic Society that has no concept of nationaism we see. The Republic, the Empire or New Republic are all somehow galactic governments ruling over everyone and one replaces the other as the central power structure. So where precisely is the First Order meant to fit in as a "nation"? All the core systems of the Empire were the core sytems of the Republic and are the core systems of the New Republic. You could have an internal conflict within that galactic society like how the Clone Wars are portrayed but at no point in Star Wars movie universe do we have anything less than a pan galactic civilization and thus a consensus among probably trillions of people that they are part of that civilization. It really desperately needs more meat on its bones to make sense.
The same downside SW has in regards to the Empire, and the Old Republic, and Seperatists. We never get much info or backstory about them as well. The sequel get shit for that, but the other trilogies dont ...
Vox Draconia I know, it’s like people want the new films to just stop and explain in intricate detail the history of every character and faction. People have been spoiled by the Expanded Universe giving them ALL the information, when most people just don’t care.
@@voxdraconia4035 It's because within the PT and OT we are provided all of the context we require to understand the characters and the world they inhabit. It's not about being provided the wookiepedia entries for everything in the movie, but rather being presented with enough information to understand the most basic narrative question: what do these people want? We are two movies into the ST and intelligent media critics like Lindsay Ellis are unable to answer that basic question. That's why the ST gets so much criticism.
@@kevinfowler4349 I have to disagree. I saw all six films as an adult and in the OT the Empire seemed pretty vague defined but as an amorphous totalitarian power structure that was bad. The Empire was much better depicted in the PT, where Palpatine created a substantial enemy that threatened the Republic, cultivated fear of them, and then escalated the conflict until the people thought that turning the Republic into the Empire in the name of security and stability was a great idea. But in the OT, what enemy is the Empire worried about? Do the Separtists still exist out there? I remember thinking about the Death Star "why does this exist?" It's a mobile planet buster that can carry a massive army around the galaxy. What enemy is the Empire fighting that they want this superweapon, who are they at war with? The Resistance? Do they seriously plan to blow up any planet that might be conspiring with the Resistance? It's not like blowing up Alderaan eradicated the Resistance, that's kinda that idea with guerilla rebel factions like that. It's like the United States building a city-sized Helicarrier and then using it to carry out SWAT raids. Lindsay says the Empire blew up Alderaan as a show of force to intimidate anyone who would defy them, but she glosses over that we don't know who would be defying them except for the Resistance, and if the Empire is bad enough that there's a notable Resistance already, it's only going to strengthen their cause when they start blowing up planets to try and stamp out dissent. "We must overthrow the Empire!" "Eh, they're not so bad" "They've started blowing up their own planets" "Oh shit, we gotta do something!"
8:55, A list of good lines in the prequels. "Hello there" "You wanna buy some death sticks?" "You were the chosen one!" The tragedy of Darth Plauguis. "I love democracy." "This is where the fun begins" "Another happy landing"
I am pretty sure that the first order not have any real ideology is more a reaction to the "The prequels are bad because they focus on boring stuff" idea. A in depth, understandable reason actually put into the movies would be as boring as "trade disputes",a at least in Disney's mind it is. It's why anything related to the rise of the first order has been put in novels and comics, because while star wars fans want that stuff, they think the average joe does not. Disney has been hard core acting on this since they bought Star Wars.
One thing I've noticed about the Empire and the First Order is that both are very consistent on having only human crews, armies, and officers in their fleets without any aliens (and with the Empire, only white humans.) Meanwhile the Rebellion employs many species in its ranks, with folks like Admiral Ackbar and Chewbacca and Nien Nunb among its ranks, as well as the Rebellion allying with the Ewoks bringing them victory after the Empire shot or ignored the Ewoks. So there's this undercurrent, never really said outloud, that xenophobia is a major tenet of the Empire's and First Order's ideology. However, this has never been stated in open in the series ("Solo" has some depictions of Wookiee slavery and uprising, at least), and could've made for something interesting in the prequels considering the Separatists were made up of mostly aliens and so Palpatine may have drawn on repulsion of their species to bring himself power. Of course, that too gets into a separate problem of making aliens stand in for people of color, and George "Temple of Doom and Jar-Jar Binks" Lucas was never the greatest at writing non-white folks and cultures...
That's exactly it. One of the Empire's biggest ideological points was exploiting the xenophobia and human-centrism of people in the Core and turning them against non-humans living in the Outer Rim by labelling them all as "Separatists", a very obvious reference to the Clone Wars, and the devestation it caused.
To me it's kind of like asking what the ideology of ISIS is. The average ISIS fighter probably cares less about the minutiae of Salafi eschatology than stickin' it to the Baghdad elite from whom his community feels alienate, gaining some semblance of power and stability, etc. So to me it could make perfect sense, and indeed be a reasonably deep commentary on war, for billions to loose their lives in a galaxy-wide conflict between two theocratic cults. The only problem is that, unlike with actual human religions, we don't see any evidence of the vast majority of galaxy residents ever having much of conceptual investment in the force. If Palpatine had gone around building temples to the dark side across his domain and made them relevant centers of community, it would make sense that a significant sector of the population would come to see it as an important feature of their cultural identity that they would want to protect despite never actually seeing the force used. Instead all that's really there is a meaningless cycle of violence which eventually unmoors even the military-industrial complex from any ideological context beyond its own power.
It's interesting you say that, because in Legends, Darth Krayt actually did that when he took over the ImpRem and NewRep, turning Sith and Dark Side temples into centers of education, food and job applications and growth.
I think unlike some of the post-Imperial power structures in the EU/Legends, the original Galactic Empire is sort of more like the classic fascist combo of bigoted authoritarian government + war machine + repressive culture (i.e. Sith religion). So there was still plenty of appeal to the average Imperial stormtrooper or citizen, because they didn't need a theocracy when they could still get their ideological kicks of hating on aliens and those liberal Republicans who caused the Clone Wars
@@Yet.Another.Rapper.KiG.V2 I agree with you, there are many non religious ways people could be moved to join/support a warlike regime. To insinuate Mike Pence supports modern day neo nazis is a paranoid delusion though.
It was easier to understand The Empire's goons, they mostly had this air of "I'm just doing my job" which is scary when someone evil is creating those jobs. The lower ranking people in the empire seemed more like regular Joe's just trying to get by. The new order made everyone out to be super angry and hateful. It's not very relatable.
The First Order is descent from leftovers of the original empire. Logically, it most likely started as different factions, then united by Snoke, but their overall goal is to reinstate the Empire. I read somewhere that some of the original basis for the First Order was a hypothetical "What if the Nazis that escaped to Argentina banded together and made a come back?" So there is some element of revenge in the First Order's goals, which is why they probably blew up the capital of the New Republic. But, that bit on Nu-Fascism and the cult of Heroism also made me think that it's likely that the First Order, the older members and the ones that grew up in the empire, are living out Glory fantasies, and see the current state in the Galaxy as an illegitimate insurrectionist government to the Empire, and that the Empire still runs and will rise again. The Resistance is similar, not because it was founded by disgruntled ex-freedom fighters who had legitimate reason to be worried about this Empiric Rise, but because it too has people who formerly fought, who somewhat are reminiscing about their glory days, and want to live out this fantasy of heroism and fighting for something.
I always kind of figured the New Order existed in part due to nostalgia for the Empire. They're the people always talking about how things were better in the good ol' days, much like how modern American populists have mythologized post WWII but pre civil rights America as some sort of golden age.
It kinda was a golden age, economically speaking. The rest of the world was a bombed out ruin while America had all of their production infrastructure roaring and ready to go.
Lindsay, please, make a video about Harley Quinn please! A lot of girls here and there want to be as Harley and to love a man like Joker, they really think that they were in LOVE and that IT IS love. I think it would be interesting to tell the truth about their psychology and abuse. P.S. Sorry for my English and cheers from Russia, love you!:3
Seeing a lot of the same here in the United States. She did touch on this a little bit in one of her earlier videos. She even specifically mentions the relationship between Harley Quinn and the Joker. I wish I could remember which one it was, tho x_x
Wonderful idea. I find that it's widespread, that toxic rommance you talk about. We see it in YA books, which is horrible as it shows youngesters horrible concepts of love, or Erotic books like 50 shades of grey. And the worst part is that it's not normally done to critisize it and there for sends the wrong messages all together.
One of the reasons why I really disliked The Force Awakens was that they just didn't care to take into account that their remake was also their sequel. The movie suggests you just buy into the fact that The First Order is this fringe group, but also has a superweapon that they built - apparently unchallenged - even though there's a whole New Republic, and then the Resistance is a Resistance against... what, exactly? The First Order, yeah, sure, but if there's a whole New Republic in place, shouldn't they, like be a part of the political power structure and just influnce the Republic to curb stomp the First Order before they're an actual problem? I've never thought I'd say that Star Wars needs more politics after watching the prequels so many times, but frankly, too little of it and the suspension of disbelief is gone. And in decent fantasy and SF, no matter how good your story is, you have to have that baseline worldbuilding down to a T. If you want me to focus on your story, I cannot be distracted by the fact your world makes no sense. So yeah, I wholehearteadly agree with the assertion that the First Order doesn't seem to be about anything in particular and is just a rehash of the Empire sans context. Which is, in my opinion, very unfortunate.
I gotta say this, I often find myself not agreeing with you or some of your critisism, but you still come with good points and manage to tell them in an entertaining way.
It disgusts me that a howling mob of hyenas have silenced this woman of clever wit, creativity, and analytical rigour. A mob who will never - either singularly or collectively - evenly remotely match Lindsay in dialectical quality. :(
I just noticed this: the hand sign the First Order uses is a sign used by Serbian nationalists and nazis. It's a neutral symbol of holy trinity but has gaind bad reputation due to this. Not unlike swastika
I also disagree about Kylo killing Snoke on a whim; he kills him only after Snoke stupidly reveals he has been manipulating Kylo this whole time. From Kylo's perspective, the mentor he thought he knew is just as much of a liar as the uncle he thought he knew. Betrayed again, he takes his whole "the past must die for there to be a future" phylosophy in a new, unexpected direction.
Now we get to wonder was that Snoke's intention all along. To push Kylo Ren to replace him and go looking for the Emperor. Makes sense if the emperor changed his plans upon reading Rey's mind and realizing he had found his missing granddaughter. Perhaps he had thought Kylo could convince her to stay if they fought to save each other and Kylo was in charge. Because seriously there is no way Ren was able to hide his thoughts from Snoke and everything Snoke said was true, from a certain point of view, including the you can not kill me bit.
Doubly thinking about it maybe the Emperor thought Kylo would be really angry at him and strike him down when he revealed he manipulated him from birth, but Kylo was all I don't care whatever man, been there done that now what. And the Emperor is no you have to be angry with me or the transference won't work. But Kylo just don't care anymore. So the Emperor quickly thinks there is another, I know I'll make the girl really angry with me by getting Kylo to try and kill her, get her to knock him out of the equation and when she comes for me I'll jump into her. I always did like long gowns anyway.
@@hannahpreece3651 Books released since TROS have explained that Snoke's purpose was to give Kylo a mentor he could kill - thus satisfying the criterion that a Sith apprentice should aim to overthrow their master, without Palpatine having to die. Although neither Snoke nor Kylo were Sith so it's a bit wishy-washy. Pretty sure Snoke believed he was simply acting in his own interests, and may not have even been aware that he was a pawn of Palpatine.
Thank you! I have been thinking about Disney pushing fascism and wondering why people weren't going nuts, and you took the thought so much deeper. Though I don't think they've been marketing the bad guys "almost as much as the heroes." It's struck me from the beginning that they're marketing the bad guys MORE than the heroes.
More commonly referred to as "shock troops", the German's adapted an allied concept and created a specialized branch known as "Sturmtruppen" or storm troopers. The Canadians were considered the allied shock troops, renowned for their blitz-like tactics that would punch small holes in German defensive lines to be exploited by larger leapfrogging reinforcements.
Wait...If leia’s political philosophy is for planetary autonomy...that’s the separatist philosophy from the prequels. I mean I guess that makes sense if the empire was the republic...but kinda wack to consider Leia would’ve sided with Dooku
Interesting comparison. But Harvey dent killed specific individuals based on a 50/50 chance. Thanos wanted to kill half of humanity at random. Both were about fairness but the approach was different.
the main difference, I think, is the scale of each of their personal conflicts. Both motivated by grief and loss. Dent lost his fiance Rachel. She meant the wold to him, but Thanos lost his home world and all the people on it. It only makes sense then that the villain who lost more would have a more destructive plan that ended more lives
I'm doing a project on modern movie villains (like '10s modern) and this was the only video I could find on the first order but hot dam was it interesting.
Because we don't live in a parallel of the Weimar Republic, more likely is the fact we face similar issues as the roman republic already the most dominant empire in its time. As is the U.S. in its role as supreme hegemon. For gods sake Rome had class wars as well. And no America will not be like Nazi Germany and conquer and exterminate various ethnic groups, contrary to popular belief America as a empire is pretty benevolent, Comparisons aside.
Imagine walking around in the Florida heat in those costumes... Especially Phasma's metalic one. It's just shiny plastic... Right? Seriously, whose idea was this??
I'd imagine the Star Wars costumes aren't as bad as the cartoon charecters. I'm sure it's not fun, but they do cycle actors in and out every twenty minutes or so when it's hot.
It is good to see Lindsay, Just Write, Lessons from the Screenplay, and Shaun all release push back videos about Star Wars after the endless and mindless hate spewed at TLJ for past 6 months.
K.Louis yes and i already anticipated this very comment because lord knows if you don't put an addendum to every single comment you make people will completely misinterpret you. So, here is my remix of my original comment: it's nice to see youtube channels that I enjoy tackling the modern iterations of Star Wars with intelligence and nuance rather than nostalgia critic knock off videos designed to appeal to the lowest common denominator who just want their opinions reinforced.
At multiple points in the video a Heinz ketchup bottle mysteriously appears next to Starscream on the shelf and then just as quickly vanishes. See the cut after 14:42 as an example. A) What does this mean? B) Once seen it cannot be unseen. C) My sense of narrative flow and the magical realism of cinema have been completely obliterated.
the empire's military force was mainly maintained because palpatine knew that there was a "alien" threat on the horizon (aka Yuuzhan Vong). to fight the rebels were not the main agenta. "When will Darth Sidious tell [the citizens of the Republic]?" "When he's turned the Republic's chaos into order. When we've built an army and a fleet capable of dealing with the threat. To announce it before then would do nothing but create panic and leave us open to disaster." ―Kinman Doriana and Thrawn[ man the starwars old Expandet Universe was much more fun.
Although I'm a Legends fan through and through, I really love your coverage of this. I hope, someday in the future, you might cover the ideology and give a detailed look at the Yuuzhan Vong. They're very unique for Star Wars and an extremely different group then anything before or since in SW. Think Mongols meets Aztecs meets Cenobites.
I enjoy your videos so much. Thank you for making them. Here was my list. I paused it when you posed the question. I can’t believe I missed the tradition thing. - [ ] Total control by the head of state - [ ] Elitism, the best deserve to win and it’s a zero sum game - [ ] The state as a religion - [ ] Hyper capitalist - [ ] large public works
Basically what most alt-right people and neo-nazis believe. „It wasn’t all bad! If we cut out the world war and the concentration camps it would be awesome.“ totally ignoring that facism at its core is a ideology that needs some sort of enemy to actually work, either one from within or from outside.
I always view the First Order as nothing more than Empire fanboys, in the same way that Kylo is basically a Darth Vader fanboy. They're the neo-nazis to the Third Reich; the less inspired successor to a previously titanic superpower.
Then they’d be more like the Atomwaffen. You know an extreme and small terror group with no popular support because their goals are basically revenge on the Galaxy through terror. Instead, in the films they become a titanic galactic superpower basically overnight.
The First Order is like a bunch of Neo-Nazis who found all the Third Reich's hidden gold and weapons stashed in a cave somewhere. "Hey look! Guns and gold! What should we do now boys? How about we buy ourselves some new outfits and shoot up the town."
True. The New Order really do remind me of the sort of edgelords who pretend to be nazis without actually knowing anything about nazism or fascist ideology. It was a whole political party and much like Republicans and Democrats they have multiple goals, motivations, and stances
@jocaguz18 Are you insinuating that was the point of the line all along? That Lucas deliberately made Obi Wan say that line in order to highlight the inherent hypocrisy of the Pre-Imperial Jedi Order and thus show the inherent duality between the light and the dark side - that despite this duality they're actually quite similar in approach to their chosen ethos? I'd like to believe that, but since this isn't something Avellone wrote in Knights of the Old Republic 2 I'm inclined to believe Lucas subscribed to the same interpretation of Star Wars that he outlines way back in the 80's - that he meant it to be interpreted in black and white. I'd like to believe he realized the appeal of nuance later in his writing but - meh - who knows? It doesn't matter, it's all fucked now.
@jocaguz18 ...what the fuck are you talking about? Nothing I said has anything to do with Disney. Is English not your mother-tongue? It seems something has been lost in translation.
Well, (I believe) even though the stories are non canon now, there was a huge remnant of the empire that was left behind after the death of palpatine. Just from a logical perspective of watching return of the jedi you can see that there’s probably many many people left who were still programed to believe the imperial propaganda or were benefitting from that power structure to the point that they would fight to “defend” it (from their perspective they are the “legitimate” successor state and the new republic are still the rebel alliance). From this perspective, it actually makes sense that the fascist rhetoric (general Hugs’ rally) would be dialed up because (to use fascists’ own “logic”) the emperor fell (pun intended) because he was “too weak”.
Nope, it was a contingency plan of Palpatine's: Burn the Empire to the ground, try to take as many rebels with them as possible, and order the "most promising" (read: most warcrimes-y) Imperial officers to fuck off to deep space and rebuild. They touch upon it over the course of the plot for Star Wars Battlefront 2's singleplayer.
Vicente Ortega Rubilar Hahaha! I'm surprised this wasn't mentioned. Spaceballs hit the nail on the head for the Empire's ideology with that one line! The Empire Strikes Back was proof of this!
This is exactly what psychopaths tend to believe. They might actually be more successful managers for example, not because (from their pov) they're immoral and evil, but because they find ways of reaching their goals that their competitors apparently didn't think of. If you don't have empathy, it can be hard to tell when your crossing some kind of line (it is even for normal people), so when they resort to immoral actions, they often they see it as just beeing more clever than others. So yeah, they seriously believe that good people are dumb.
Revisiting this post-TROS is so funny to me, because JJ and Terrio basically said, "Nah man, let's just bring the Empire back instead and not answer any questions about the power system we created."
The ST clearly lacked an objective (narratively). The OT was about freeing the galaxy from Imperial tyranny (Vader’s redemption was secondary); the PT was about Anakin’s rise and fall, along with Palpatine’s rise to power and the fall of the Republic. The ST was about... stopping the OT baddies from returning (figuratively and literally)?
@@DecafKauffee The ST was about Legacy. Learning from past mistakes while embracing the good that has come before. Kylo's character is literally an embodiment of this theme. He tried to be like Vader too much by killing Han but was then defeated by Rey (someone new). He then tries to be his own Supreme Leader by killing Snoke but then gets defeated by Luke Skywalker (someone old) so then he tries to do both in TROS but it takes both the past and present (Han and Rey) to save Ben Solo from the dark side.
Although to be fair, that IS an explanation. Saying that Palpatine was controlling the First Order from the shadows does, in a way, answer our questions of why and how.
@@littlechickeyhudak Yeah it makes more sense for the original guy who made and ruled the first Empire to come back and try to bring it back again as a back up plan rather than just some other Sith start his own empire with stormtroopers and tie fighters which is whag I feared Snoke would end up being
Goebbels hated Riefenstahl for two reasons: 1.He thought propaganda should always be disguised as entertainment and thought her films were a bit too on the nose. 2.She was a woman.
One thing I like about the portrayal of the First Order is how youthful they are. In Force Awakens there's people in military uniforms on Starkiller base that look like teenagers. Kylo is still in his 20s and Hux is probably only a little older and they're commanding this giant fascist military force that fetishizes the fascist military force of the past. Which is genius, because it shows that having not grown up under the oppression of the empire, they don't understand how horrible it was. This is something that's become increasingly relevant today with teenagers larping as Nazis.
Sam Warren Actually, most of the soldiers and officers were kidnapped from families and been basically brainwashed into believing that the First Order are in the right. They were also treated worse than the Empire. Here's a video for proof: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-hzmDXY8FHJ4.html
I always saw it as something akin to North Korea's Kim Jong: some emotionally stunted young man who inherited this set of prejudices and beliefs that end up empowering him, without giving him an actual set of guiding principles.
Synthetic Pacifist oh yeah you're right! Not sure how I didn't realise that wasn't the Takara MP. The Maketoys one looks way more cartoon accurate in robot mode, though I also like the realistic styling of the official one.
BattleUp Saber Yeah, I can see that appeal. But Meteor also has the benefit of modern, third party engineering, which lends itself to being the better figure overall, not just aesthetically. Also, it doesn't have a wide spread issue with the waist being loose and not holding together. So that's always good.
I just got Maketoys Meteor and it feels so great in hand. The real MP has an alternative mode that is absolutely gorgeous that robot mode doesn't justify it
See I always viewed Kylo Ren as the conflicted nihilist. He chooses to believe that nothing matters anymore but the events of the films force him to question that maybe something does matter. He's questioning what in his life matters, therefore, his random tantrum breakdowns and acts of violence.
That's how I view him, too. I see lots of people who hate him bitching about people who like him going "how can you like him? You know he's a fascist right??" when really, he never actually shows any support of fascist ideology, despite now leading a fascist organization. If he follows any ideology, it's definitely an extreme and negative nihilism, not fascism. (If you're wondering why I said negative nihilism, it's because I myself follow an optimistic existential nihilism, and think it's important to distinguish between the kind of destructive nihilism Kylo Ren espouses, and the more constructive philosophy of optimistic nihilism. Sorry for the soapbox.)
TimeandMonotony I understand what you're saying about your beliefs but I prefer the word Existentialist. Nihilism has such a bad name now (thanks to asshats that totally misunderstood Nietzsche), it's hard to say it without uneducated minds shutting down instantly. All forms of nihilism are descended existentialism anyway.
To be fair, considering how fundamentally fucked up the Star Wars universe is, a bit of nihilism is probably called for. I mean, we are talking about a Universe where the Force is a blind power that warps all life around itself for the sake of harmony, but in doing so crushes the individuals, their dreams and their connections. You can be a jedi, recognize the Force as the ultimate arbiter of what is right and wrong and become an agent of its harmony, forsaking all personal connections and dreams of a world beyond the Force's plans. You can dabble in the dark side, and wrestle the Force so that instead of you being turned into another cog in the galactic machine, you turn it into your own instrument. But by doing so, the Force corrodes you from the inside, warping your will, your goals and your sense of self, turning you into a shell of your former self that can only pursue power for power's sake, until you are eventually cut down. You can choose to walk the middle path, and live in fear of sliding into either extreme, with only complete apathy as a way forward. Or you can choose to not feel the Force. But the Force feels you, and you are always in its grasp. In other words, no matter what you do, if you exist in the Star Wars Universe your life will suck. I'd love Kylo to realize this.
The villains market better because of their generic nature. Luke and Leia are Mark and Carrie, they have faces. Vader and the Storm Troopers don't, they could be anyone under those masks, the marketing is the mask, not the individual. That's one of the reasons superheroes work so well from a marketing perspective, they have masks too.
True. Masked villains are also easier to watch getting killed and to blow into pieces (in video games) as they lack humanity. Think about it. How many video games feature terrorists or other enemies wearing balaclavas or closed helmets?. Deus Ex: HR, Dishonored, Syndicate etc. etc. It is about dehumanising the evil. It is easier to market, sure, as you said, for anyone can, if they want to, imagine themselves "under the hood", but it also distances the heroes or the player character from the lethal violence and often brutal methods of killing that they themselves utilize. It also distances the viewer and makes the "good guy killing" look more symphatetic despite salughtering people in the dozens, or in Death Star's case, in millions. Masking the baddies also makes their violence more indimitatingly machine-like and impersonal. They are easier to hate. I think that the first time a stormtrooper was seen without a helmet was in Force Awakens, as Finn pulls the helmet off after the raid on the village. It was a powerful moment and purposefully done to show that these guys are not clones but humans. Of course Star Wars is not about the moral ambiguity and human suffering of real war, but you get the point.
I thoroughly have problems with people who like the Empire/First Order/Sith. Seriously, it's not like "Hey I'm an antihero and I do what I want", they straight up blow up a PLANET with billions of people in the first damn movie.
Ironically the rebels, by their very definition are supposed to be the sexy freedom fighters resorting to noble terrorism in pursuit of what is right... although perhaps it's understandable why people aren't as comfortable with that angle any more...
The Empire is too big to hate the entire thing. Tarkin is an arrogant, ruthless idiot who doesn't understand how normal people behave, but Thrawn's a better person who we can't straight up HATE
A couple things people usually miss is the deliberate parallels to other Imperialism, British and American. Lucas did intend for the film to be a parallel to the Vietnam war, thus, IMO the United States is actually the closest real world parallel to the Empire.
kind of the... charm, for the lack of a better word, of the Empire was that it resembled THE totalitarian system. for example here in Central/Eastern Europe, the Empire is eerily similar to the USSR, and I'm quite sure about that someone from Asia or Africa could say some other systems - because it's not about the exact ideology, and that's why the OT and the prequels work, and that's why the sequels flop and feels empty. Star Wars always tried to be universal, and whoever was responsible for how the sequels turned out, they didn't understand that. the last trilogy feels American in a way the other two never felt. so, yeah, I guess, thank you for coming to my TEDtalk.
This is a very good video and I think you hit the nail on the head. I also think it's fair to say in addition that the First Order could exist due to someone like Snoke understanding without an Empire, he can imitate some of the characteristics and imagery and simply give a lot of the people who were simply used to the Empire - people of privilege, not particularly bothered by the Empire - some familiarity to latch onto. This wouldn't require a lot of ideological explanation from Snoke, just imagery and claiming to be picking up the pieces. "Restoring former glory" is probably enough for people like the Head Dreadnought Guy who gets blown up at the beginning of TLJ.
"Restoring former glory" is also pretty much what the Empire does in the EU novels - it seems to be *the* thing people figured out years ago would be the most fitting and simple way to unite imperial people in this fictional universe. It'd really make sense. Might be a bit too real though!
I assumed the "plot points without context" was deliberate- Kylo doesn't really understand what Vader believed or tried to accomplish, he just wanted to be cool like grandpa
Yeah. The issue is that even though what Kylo did was realistic, it was also shallow and extremely useless for expanding a character. By making Kylo abandon what he was doing in the first two films, it leaves nothing for him in the 9th star wars film. What Kylo WAS, was thrown away. But we don't really have anything to replace his personality with. He is effectively a blank slate again, but that means there is a reset of his entire character and one wonders why even bother sitting through two films for this.
I agree, that's how I've always "read" the First Order as well. I honestly see it as a reflection of the (sorry) post-modern view on fascism. I don't think it's so esoteric as an Umberto Eco paper. I think a LOT of people today have a basic understanding that there are assholes who crave power for power's sake, and simply piggyback on *whatever* makes people angry to gain that power. Arguably, idealists like Hitler are a relative rarity among fascist monsters. (And to be clear, I'm saying "idealist" in the strict definitional sense of "being driven by ideology.") The Empire might have - on paper - stood for Order and Strength and Unity and keeping all the alien scum and droids oppressed... but Palpatine himself gave no shits about that. Anakin is the one who swallowed that kool-aid, letting himself become a tool just so the Emperor could have UUNNNLLIIMMMIIITTTEEED POWWAAAHHHHH. But then, thirty years after their fall, you get the First Order, a corrupted third-generation copy of the Empire. They've discarded the rhetoric that Palpatine preached and Vader believed as unnecessary - they want to be powerful for no reason except that they identify with those who once were powerful. Just as Kylo Ren identifies with Vader, but without Vader's ideology. In that, I don't think it's very different from Neo-Nazis and Neo-Confederates and similar paleo-fascist groups IRL.
Lucas was kind of a hipster back in the day. He based the Empire on pretty much every regime or government which he viewed as oppressive. The Third Reich, the USSR and the USA mostly.
@@vetarlittorf1807 That's what you can do in that position, you can pull from a lot of influences. The influences from Japanese movies is very obvious too.
The result of having two (planned: three) different directors making the movies as they wanted. It's clear that even the OT, despite ANH being made so it would work alone (because Lucas didn't know if he would get to make the other two), that there is a deeper plot, that the three movies will make a whole together. The PT is even more tightly interwoven, for all the stuff it did wrong (mostly trying too much). The new trilogy is just a mess that happens when people try to undo each other's movie.
The plot is a tyrannical force that brings peace and order to the galaxy is overthrown by people who have no idea how to run a galaxy and who are much worse for the people than the tyrannical force because the usurpers don’t like the methods the tyrannical force uses. Basically the Empire is Stalin if Soviet Russia was a futuristic galaxy instead of an anachronistic country.
@NOVABRIGHTSTAR BRIGHTSTAR At least six people managed to understand my point (going by the number of thumbs up I have at the time of writing this). You obviously think that you've understood something that they all missed. On the contrary. You have chosen to ignore what I obviously meant, apparently because this pretense allows you list all the things you know about Warhammer. You obviously have the ability to learn things, and to express yourself in joined-up sentences with the words in the right order. This puts you far above the baseline for RU-vid comments. But what have you done with these abilities? You've chosen to use them to, essentially, interrupt--as it were shouting over someone making a mildly interesting comment about Warhammer saying "I KNOW MORE ABOUT WARHAMMER! HERE IS WHAT I KNOW ABOUT WARHAMMER!", like a child who has misunderstood an adult conversation. No one cares what you know about Warhammer.
This video was terrific and I loved the discussion of fascist iconography. You touched upon it slightly, but my reading of the First Order's ideology is very close to much of neo-nazis. What I mean by that is that a lot of it is built around a worship and iconography of a totalitarian state, but the ideology is nothing more than a charade for hate. As the Empire was quite clearly the "space nazis" and built around having a stronger sense of ideology I see the First Order like many 20-something neo-nazis: fanboys using that to further their hate, but without any idea of what to do in actual power. That's why the "we demand to be taken seriously" is not just an awesome joke, but in a way such a big truth. They have no actual idea or identity, instead they are built around being unhappy with the current leadership and anything that might belittle them. Notice how focused they are in bringing down the last part of the Resistance, with ALL of their leadership there. It's because it's the only way to stop the people who might actually make people not take them seriously, which is their biggest threat. Snoke seems to have built the organization to cater to young hateful people, as a way to mask their anger as politics, like many real neo-fascist organizations do. The First Order kind of doesn't have a plan (beyond Snoke), because all of them are just there because they are MAAAAD.
It also sort of aligns with how Finn escaped and left the first order parallels ex-neo-nazis leaving those circles of influence once he sees what they truly are, either by a traumatic incident or logical reasoning. see: Life after Hate
I generally love your video essays, but there's one thing, I just have to call out, because it really hurts: It's about that black-red-and-gold print on that "Germany"-Mug: please don't to connect these colours with the Nazis. These are the federal coulours (Bundesfarben, Art. 22 Abs. 2 Grundgesetz - the German post-war constitution, litterally: base law), which the Nazis resented. These colours do NOT represent fascism nor nazism but the liberal movement of 1848, which eventually culminated in the Weimarer Republik. No wonder, the Nazis hated these colours, especially the third one (which is said to represent freedom) and mocked them by calling them "Schwarz-Rot-Senf" - black-red-mustard. The Nazis' colours were black-white-red, compare the swastika flag. These colours were also those of the second Reich, to which they saw themselves as kind of successors. I hope I could clarify this point, as many non-Germans (and a lot of Germans) get these colours combinations mixed up. But for me it feels just wrong to see the Bundesfarben connected to enemies of the Grundgesetz, which was designed with the horrors of the Third Reich in mind especially to provide liberty and human rights and to prevent the rise of another terror regime. No hard feelings though. BTW: it's pronounced Reichs-Tag, not Reishtag. S and T are only pronounced as "sht," if both letters are part of the same sylable, which they are not in this word.
@@wasserruebenvergilbungsvirus Believe it or not, I'm 18 years in the internet and have yet to find someone to call me a Nazi for beeing a german. But don't worry. If someone does, I'll call him a stupid racist on the spot :D
In my perspective, the First Order seems to much more mirror modern facists: modern fanboys of an ideology they don't understand, who get sucked into it unknowingly, and by the time they become truly facist, it's too late. Kylo Ren is nothing but a modern-day facist: he's a young man who's disinhertened by the system handed to him because it's harder than what was promised to him by fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers (despite the fact that it's still relatively easy) (this is the dreaded "multiculturalism" where suddenly minorities and women are allowed to be given a small percentage of power instead of none at all). His father figures having failed him--his father essentially divorcing from his mom, his uncle starting to show concern that he's too much like Anakin--he turns to another father figure (Snoke) for guidance, one who has always been lurking in the shadows (i.e., Nazis and racists). This father figure gives Kylo Ren an ancestor to align himself with, like a man who fought in the war on the side of the Empire (Nazis). See? Your grandfather (Darth Vader) or your great-grandfather fought on this side! Surely it must not be so bad! Then the new father figure convinces him, little by little, that it was always great for us (white men) like the ancestor--why isn't it great now? Why is it so hard now? (Effectively ignoring economic issues, like house market crashes or an entire empire collapsing and requiring reconstruction, or the fact that it wasn't great for everyone, just men in power.) He gives him something to blame--a newly formed Republic, a minority, etc. He tells him that those who show concern for this blossoming new ideology simply do not want him to gain power like how they used to, convincing him that families and friends being concerned about him is something he should feel threatened by. And so when Luke finally decides in a moment of weakness, enough is enough, that his darkness is too great, that's when Kylo Ren turned. And when he does? What does Snoke make him do? Be a glorified henchmen. Kylo Ren kills Snoke because he, too, was disappointing him. He wants to convince Rey to join him because he thinks that this will solve his problem: "my loss of power will go away when I subjugate a woman, when I force someone else to do what Snoke did to me." I've kinda always seen Kylo Ren that way, not as a tragic villain with a sob story but a villain who convinced himself that he was a victim, just like modern day facists.
I'm so glad there are people like you making these despite the constant "why bother with it" comments and attitude. These encourage me to think, they build my perspective, and they are incredibly entertaining. It's a good, perspective building time! (Also find it interesting these have a largely consistent 1.5 to 2k dislike when I've noted it, regardless of views. That's some dedicated haters.... 😬😬)
I got into an argument with a co-worker when he told me he preferred the Empire to the Rebellion because the Rebellion murdered all the civilians on the Death Star and never shed a tear. I looked at him and said, “ALDERAAN?”
One of the main factors in why the first order has no real philosophy or politics beyond angry boys cosplaying as nazis is JJ Abrams. Abrams has no distinct ditectorial style. His main gimmick is mimicking the styles of other more famous directors and then filling in the holes in his story with pointless mystery boxes. This has never been more apparent than when comparing force awakens to last jedi. Force Awakens is all spectacle, set piece special effects, and plot beats shamelessly copied from new hope. It has no themes because Abrams doesn't know how to work thematic story telling into his films. By contrast last jedi is so packed with thematic story telling that the mystery boxes and other weak plot points from previous films are ignored completely. In short, force awakens asks the audience "Hey kids! Remember star wars?" While last jedi asks its audience "How do you deal with your own personal shame and failure?"
@Tom Ffrench the main plot beats of last jedi are copied almost exactly from empire strikes back. A young jedi breaks off from their allies to go train with a tired jaded old jedi who refuses to train them. Meanwhile the young jedi's allies fail their way from one life and death sitiation to the next. The point where empire and last jedi diverge is Rey's rush to redeem the enemy like Luke tried in return, and the fact that Poe and Finn are idiots who need adult supervision at all times. The reality is the worst scene in last jedi is still better than the best scene in the prequels. And last jedi, despite copying the broad plot beats of empire still manages to tell its own story. Force awakens retells new hope with more flash, less substance, and nothing else. And this is only made even more obvious when you look at the dumpster fire that is rise of Skywalker.
Huh? The Last Jedi was good? Surely you're joking. It took an absolutely different direction from what had been established, created a mess of whatever story line that had been planned, which resulted in a convoluted and messy ROTS, it pretty much annihilated a lot of the characters: Luke, Leia, Poe, Finn & Rey to name a few (if not all). Had A LOT of logical inconsistencies; was completely removed from the Star Wars universe in many aspects. Had two major plot lines that went absolutely NOWHERE. And, RJ was so intent on subverting expectations that he literally muddled up the entire story line because of it. Calling TFA a spectacle...sure, it most definitely is 'spectacular' in a sense, but that is exactly what SW has always been. It's hardly a great movie, but I think they did a good job on it. It did its job. It set up the characters, and established the plot. Sure, it's Disney as hell, but that was way better than what happened later to it in TLJ & ROTS. Just FYI, on your claim that TLJ was about personal shame or failure: The thing with Luke was completely removed from the kind of character that we know he was, and the entire time spent on that Jedi planet was pointless, except for maybe seeing Luke redeem himself by bashing on Kylo towards the end? A move which seemed more like a bully making fun of a child, than a mentor agreeing to see the error of his actions. Yeah, that's how you deal with your failures.
@@MrYomaaaan okay, before we start, I want to say that if you're going to act like "you like TLJ? How dare you!" don't even reply to me. Ok. You need to learn what "pointless" means. Luke went to Dagobah to train as a Jedi, he leaves before concluding his training. So, in the end of the movie, he is defeated. If we are going to use your definition of "pointless", TESB is pointless. TESB and TLJ are both about failure, even if the second one says it more loudly. Luke fails in being a good student and Rey fails in being a good student. Rey wants to redeem Kylo, and she fails (just in case you say that she doesn't want nothing). So, your definition of "pointless" is wrong. And before you say that the Cassino Scene is "pointless", I need to tell you that Han and Leia spend most of the time in TESB running from the Empire, and in the end, they failed. So it's also "pointless". If your problem with the casino scene is that its boring, it's ok, because that would be a real argument. And let's talk about Luke. Luke is a man who failed in being the man the galaxy expected him to be. The only thing is...... He already failed before. When Vader said he was going to find Leia and bring her to the Dark Side, Luke atacked Vader and ALMOST killed him. But he stopped. And LITERALLY THE SAME THING happened in TLJ. Luke realize that Ben and Snoke were already together, and he also saw that Ben would probably kill his friends and other students. So Luke THOUGHT in killing Ben, but he stopped. The problem is that Ben misunderstands that and tries to kill Luke. So Luke did the same mistake TWICE. But in the first moment, it was ok. No one except him to be a legend. It's clear that you don't know much about writing, and it's clear that all the arguments that you made are the same that MauLer, Robot Head or Vito made. If you stop watching adult fanboys and start watching intelligent people, you might learn something. I recommend Film Joy, Shaun, Just Write, Nereel, EC Henry, Jenny Nicholson, Hello Gredo, Movie Bob, Sthepan Krozecs, Star Wars Explained, Films and Stuff, Patrick Explains and Sunday movies. Make a real argument next time :)
@@MrYomaaaan that's the saddest example of completely missing the point I've ever seen. RJ, as you put it, is only guilty of one thing. Dumping JJA's pointless and idiotic mystery boxes in order to tell a story about character growth and hardship. The fact that some loud obnoxious children online don't like the story has nothing to do with the quality of the story. As for JJ Abrams and force awakens. The only reason you think "Force Awakens is what star wars is supposed to be" is because JJ's directing "style" revolves around using nostalgia to trigger a dopamine release in the primitive lizard part of the human brain. 20 years from now the JJ Abrams star wars films will be remembered about as well as the prequels, and last jedi will be just as adamantly overhyped as empire strikes back.
@@CitanulsPumpkin It's funny that you should label anyone who doesn't agree with you as a 'loud and obnoxious child' also calling pandering to nostalgia, something which is, btw, exploited for both good and for bad reason by pretty much everybody. And no, I never said that it is what 'Star Wars is SUPPOSED to be', can you point out where exactly I mentioned anything of the sort? I said that it was a good start off point. Sure, the mystery box approach is a cliche, but it wasn't so world-breaking as you've made it out to be. Also, wtf even gets to decide what Star Wars 'should be'? In short, you offered no response on why my points about TLJ being bad is unfounded. Your comment was basically a non-response. You spent more time criticising TFA again than you did about what I'd written.
