The INSANE story of Air France 11 

INFORMATION THAT FEW PEOPLE KNOW ABOUT THIS INCIDENT : This flight is schedulded at the worst moment in term of cicardian rythme disruption. The effect of the jet lag is so powerful at this slot that this flight is known amongst Air France pilots to be one of the most challenge in terms of fatigue and physiological stress. And it is return flight... Follwing a flight with a huge jetlag... US companies don't take this slot for this reason. I guess Air France didn't have so much choice. The flight is long, but not enough to make a relief pilot mandatory so it's a two pilots crew only. This information is lacking in most of the videos and articles on the subject despite being well known by a lot of aviation professionals. We're talking about a human phenomenon here. So this information is very important as it played a huge role in this event. There is a reason why this crew had a risk of having poor CRM at arrival in these conditions

@@hellomiami4012 Exactly.

If you like Bill Bryson i also recommend "A short history of nearly everything"

I wonder why they can't engineer a CONTROL CONFLICT warning, an audible warning like "pull up terrain" ?

You need to check the MANDELA EFFECT on AIR PLANES

Now you know how SHE feels when HE'S on top... again...

@@PutsOnSneakers that's pretty good. 😂😂😂👏👏👏

This is where the human factor comes in, after flying at night. You'd think the technology in this day and age, that such an aircraft could detect that both pilots are combating each others inputs?

i think there's an instinct that its the plane.. that its us against them.. when in fact the enemy is your ally. This runs counter to how we're wired

That's what happened with AF447; but that ultimately went down to the Airbus flight control system, where the joysticks don't move in unison with each other.

:-) - Yes. But in this case nearly 200 human lifes were at stake.

Good story 🙂.

I think your brand of ‘humor’ is misplaced here; Not to mention being stupid and unfunny in any context. You need to work on your material, "Chumba Wumba".

@@NicolaW72 zit down son

@@longfade don't be so serious all the time

Can you imagine doing this in old fully only mechanically linked aircraft? One pilot would instantly turn to the other and say 'whose got control, you or me?'. These modern aircraft are making pilots go dumb.

That's what she said!

And how often in the heat of the moment the callout is forgotten.

Seems to be a problem at AF. Even if you say “my controls” you are not sure that controls are actually yours. Because the monitoring pilot is frozen and mentally not there. Pulling the yokes backwards

​​​@@huwzebediahthomas9193this particularly plane had both yokes mechanically linked, like the good old days. the stress of the situation and inability to calm down simply meant both pilots were fighting each other, even if the inputs by both pilots could be felt. Simply put, this incident had nothing to do with modern aircraft making things dumb.

I'm not a pilot, but from my understanding, there actually is a warning for that, at least on (some?) Boeing aircraft, where the computer should call out "Dual Input." Not sure if that's the case on this aircraft though.

@@garmmermibe5397 that's an airbus feature I think. But on the Airbus this warning is even more important since the sidesticks don't move on the contralateral side when an imput is given, in contrast to the yoke on a Boeing which always moves on both sides when inputs are given on one side since they are driven by electrical motors. I think that this incident as well as similar incidents on Airbuses prove that both manufacturers would benefit from implementing each other's features as well.

Certainly have this on airbus, but I’m unsure on Boeing. Really should have it, but it may also be ignored by the pilots in the heat of the moment. This is an embarrassing moment for Air France, not the only one either.

What about a plane that says dual input? When both pilots are struggling at the same time.

@@sharoncassell9358 Airbus does this already when there are inputs on both side sticks. Not sure about other aircraft though.

why ? no individual represents you. Unless you're one of those lemmings out there...

It is definately very embarrassing not only for a former AirFrance pilot as you are but also for a French as I am as our national air company seem not to be very trustable. Yes it is a shame to see so badly trained pilots in charge of the life of hundreds souls every day.

And, to think KLM is partnered and basically part of the Air France group.. The Dutch will regret this for a long time to come..

@@PutsOnSneakers what a profoundly stupid and psychopathic comment.

it really is very worrying to see what 2 pilots without any skill can cause to hundreds of passengers that trust them with their lives. It is extremely shameful and the airline needs to take action against both of the pilots. Even the stressed tone of voice indicated that they both really didn't know what they were doing. It is scary to just think that people like that could be flying the plane you're on...This airline has crashed people to their deaths before if I remember well. I would never trust to fly with them

Air France had several incidences relating to pilot error: AF 447 Atlantic crash; Muehlhouse 1988 crash; AF 358 Toronto crash

@@expansionone Indeed. And on @Mentour Pilot you can even find some more.

😅😂

Saaame!

read the initial BEA report, it explain the situation. Flight timing is very bad du to jet lag which didnt helped also. and the atc voice make it catastrophic but the plane was still flying all time even if they went go around. Also from a geographic point of view, CDG airport is not inside Paris but some kms to the north. After the runway when coming from usa (ie west) , there are just fields (so the video is a little over sensational) . No plane are normally allowed to fly over Paris, they all go one side or the other ....

entièrement d'accord avec vous... j'ai arrêté il y a longtemps de voler avec Air France.... surtout après le crash du vol 447

@@MrLabtec70 Pour tout dire moi aussi. Il fut un temps où je voyageais souvent (mais pas extrêmement souvent non plus) sur les "navettes" Marseille-Paris ou Marseille-Bordeaux pour raisons professionnelles (j'ai travaillé dans l'industrie aéronautique 13 ans après ma carrière de pilote) et j'ai quand même vu deux fois des approches à vue complètement foirées sur Marseille, avec remise des gaz (heureusement). Pour gagner du temps par rapport à la procédure IFR complète, si on est en bonnes conditions on peut toujours "annuler l'IFR", passer en vol à vue et se poser comme le ferait un avion d'aéroclub, directement ou après une vent-arrière et c'est courant à Marseille où il y a souvent du vent mais rarement du brouillard. Sauf que ... c'est du pilotage manuel. Dans les 2 cas l'approche était trop haute, trop vite et mal alignée : je savais que c'était mal engagé dès le départ même en place passager ! Une fois ça peut arriver mais plusieurs ... ça m'attristait un peu tout de même mais je me disais que c'était un jeune à l'instruction, etc ... En fait c'était autre chose et c'était avant le Rio-Paris. Il y a un problème de recrutement et de formation à Air France depuis un moment. En plus si vous regardez des vidéos de spotters sur des aérodromes internationaux importants genre Los Angeles ou Hong Kong, pas Rodez, vous pouvez passer une heure à voir des avions de toutes les compagnies et il y a presque toujours KLM et presque jamais Air France. Où est passé Air France ? Quand aux vidéos de cockpit que je regarde avec un œil professionnel, elles me désolent, pas toutes bien sûr mais certaines avec le jeune copilote type bobo parlant avec des ouaieuh, arborant le petit bracelet fluo qui fait "branché" (je suppose), les indispensables Ray-Ban et une barbe de 3 jours (tous les jours de 3 jours) mais surtout qui parle beaucoup trop et de trop de choses au lieu de se concentrer sur ce qu'il a à faire et sur la situation de l'avion à l'instant présent. Quelle image de ce qui était une compagnie prestigieuse mais aussi du pays car tout le monde le voit ! Tout part en sucette et Air France ne fait pas exception. Des vidéos semblables prises dans des compagnies moins "prestigieuses" sont bien plus professionnelles ! C'est triste, ça m'agace profondément et ça me fait honte alors que ça pourrait facilement se corriger.

Agree 100%

@@patolt1628Found the disconnected old fart! 🙄🤦🏼‍♂️ Bet you’re the type to yell at children who cross your lawn…

Communication is paramount. Tell eachother what's going on figure out what's wrong what to do about it.

@@sharoncassell9358 I think that goes into the fatigue session. Starting skipping steps and not thinking the consequences cause you are tired and want to get on with it. Luckily the comm breakdown didnt brought the plane down.

Some crews don't take the importance of resting during layover seriously. They wanna do trips and might experience peer pressure.

And night flying in general.

This is especially true for AF. Their pilots clearly lacking the soft skills

lets stop blaming fatigue for every accident or incident. All pilots are tired but not all pilots are idiots, too.

@@marks6663 i suppose u were never tired and made a mistake. maybe you could share with us the type of job you have so.

@@marks6663 you have the award for the worst comment

Great comment, would love to have included this in the video.

@@marks6663your comment is such arrogant, ignorant and insulting. No one said fatigue is to blame for every accident instead of pilots except you. You're are treating pilots involved in accidents of idiots but you seem to ignore completely the basics about the air medecine found in a simple theorical exam of a PPL that any 16 year old teen can learn ! If your ignorance wasn't so judging and insulting, it would have been a very good thing permitting you to learn rather than insult people, treating them of idiots. It seems that the only idiot in the room right now may be the one who treat others the others of this...

@@HeaanLasai no matter how deep psychologically you go, it all boils down to the captain not saying, "I have control" it's pilot error, plural. The captain should also have said "I'm flying, CP get the check list out for......?" This negates this from ever happening. But the investigation is on-going, so all speculation at this juncture.

You see, it’s not the aircrafts fault. It’s human.

*side stick

If both pilots lose situational awareness at the same time, it doesn't matter if they act upon a yoke or a joystick.

They actually stack up quite well, the difference is that AF is not shy about making those events public, in order for others to learn about a mistake and not repeat it again.

​@@jetaddicted I'm not familiar with European air incident investigation procedures, but do Airlines in Europe (or in France in particular) have a say in whether or not incidents a relating to their aircraft are made public? All final reports from the NTSB in the US or the Canadian TSB are public documents, I can't imagine that Air France has any authority to tell the BEA to keep an incident like this a secret.

@@KevBotM This seems like a good question to bring up to Petter over on "Mentour Pilot" and/or "Mentour Now" (channels on YT)... He's European and awfully keen to share technical and "Industry Insider" information about all things aviation. He might even already have a video discussing it and I've just managed to miss it (so far)... He even encourages people to ask about ANY "weird things" they might want to know about aircraft, the industry, history of avionics, and just life as a pilot in general. Nothing against Green Dot, of course... I WOULD be willing to speculate, however, that European Investigations are largely public documents, too. This guy sounds Possibly Irish or Scottish by his accent, and would have it kind of tough to get internal investigation info' from France if it wasn't already public to some extent... BUT of course, that's also entirely speculation on my part. ;o)

Oh. Its not an isolated event. Other countries suffer the same problems. They all use the same planes & often have similar attitudes. Humans will be humans. Combative, conflictive and sometimes jealous.

@@gnarthdarkanen7464 petter is Swedish and lives in Spain.

Look up AA587. That was also a pilot training issue. What about British Midland 092? IIRC they shut down the wrong engine. No accident has a single cause, including AF447, so blaming pilot training is simplistic. But it is true that one aspect of pilot training has changed across the whole industry, related to stall recovery. That is however often the case, at some scale, following an accident or incident.

@@axel-stephanesmrgrav7036 You will have difficulty in flying with British Midland Airways they went bust in 2012.

@@andyworsley3908 and their champion pilots were probable hired by BA...

@@axel-stephanesmrgrav7036 I'm not picking on Air France randomly. Some time ago I did some research on which of the major airlines have the best and worst safety records (in the jet era). A lot had one or two fatal crashes: BA, Lufthansa, KLM (before the merger), LAN, Delta. Only one airline had none: Quantas. Air France had 5 - by far the worst and that's the reason I won't fly with them.

I stopped flying with Air France a long while ago... surely after the 447 crash !

👍 Too many CRM issues at AF

@@change_your_oil_regularly4287 I gather that at one time it was nicknamed "Air Chance".

A 3rd pilot observer would bring passenger confidence back into the fuselage…

Air France ≠ Aeroflot593

@@manolollol I meant AF953, Douala, sorry, typo.

There’s an idea!

AND the Copilot had (insanely) poor basic flying abilities and knowlede, like the one in this episode.

I'd hate to think if that B777 was an Airbus. We might have AF447 all over again, but with a higher death toll.

@@Robert_N I don't think this incident would have happened in an Airbus, for three reasons: - the Airbus flight stick commands roll rate (in flight), not control surface deflection - the sticks are not physically linked, so pilots can't physically end up wrestling over small movements as happened here - the averaging approach (combined with an audible alarm) would have mitigated this situation I think Xymanek is correct - this incident largely puts to bed the idea that physically linked sticks are the way to solve pilot coordination issues. Clearly they are not.

@@asquithea Agreed bro/broette. Both designs of Boeing and Airbus have their strengths, but I prefer Airbus more. Sticks should not be linked, as coordination may fail as you said. Honestly, before I finished the video and stuff, I thought the 777 had a fly-by-wire error caused by a solar storm or something, as solar activity will increase for the first part of the 2020s, up until 2025. Thankfully, there has been no reported incident of a civilian aircraft malfunctioning from a geomagnetic storm. :)

This accident had happened in airbus (AF447). The main issue is Air France crew not the planes

@@kedmax1055 Crew error but exasperated by the Airbus design.

What exactly in the communications with ATC led you to conclude: pilot error?

@@petep.2092 didn’t you watch the video?

@Shevi 777 I did watch the video. There was nothing that I could find in the audio with ATC that would indicate pilot error. My question was to the OP, but since you imply that the answer was contained in the video, you're welcome to answer the question. Frankly, I think the entire comment is bogus since the OP knew that the pilots were in error but then admits not knowing that they were opposing each other… So what was their error as initially but erroneously deduced? Also, the assertion that if AF447 had been fitted with linked controls the pilots would have known what each other were doing is interesting considering this video is about two pilots with linked controls who DIDN'T recognize what the other was doing.

@Burt2481 Flight Management System/Computer

AF447 cannot be blamed on airbus one bit and the side stick is not a valid excuse to put blame on them, but I do believe that they would have recovered in a 777. the first officer (not the reserve fo who put the plane in the stall) would have seen the reserve fo pulling back and felt force, instead of thinking his controls were broken

Yes.

That’s on Airbus aircraft

Thank you! Will do!

exactly right

It’s a Greek word. Kata means down. -strophe means turn / change. The word existed long before the French language.

Thank you!

This mostly means he gets recommended at lot and gets a lot of views from unsubscribed people (which is good because it means the video is reaching new people, which brings in new subscribers, but it is a mistake to assume all viewers are subscribed.)

😂😂😂 JAJAJAJA 🤣

It's not so simple and linked to the AF447 that it seems. Many pilots stressed out that Air France is thé only Airline that takes this sector at this time for a return flight. And there is a reason for it. It is the worst time for a return flight in terms of cicardian rythme disruption. The sleep rythme is the most disrupted and the fatigue is at the highest at the arrival in Paris. Adding to that, even if the flight is long, it is not long enough to put a relief pilot in the crew, according to regulations. According to pilots having made this sector, this flight is the most difficult in terms of fatigue and sleep disbalance. It is a very different situation from the AF447. No ergonomy issues and alerts du to flight stick specifics and alternate law etc... It is a pure story of fatigue, cicardian cycle disruption resulting in a pour CRM (Crew Ressource Management). Poor CRM due to fatigue and cicardian rythme disruption leading to confusion and loose control happen to any Company in any type. This specific event was over covered by the media as nowadays ATC communications are easily accessible and the pilot believed to have a control issue on radio. So the médias quickly interpreted it as something close to disaster. The thruth is that it's not. You can read the report from the BEA online. The aircraft never went close to a catastrophy but there was a real incident. The pilots had pour CRM leading them to confusion and being "behind the plane", making opposite actions on the control with the lack of communication that the pour CRM gives. It gave excessive input, feeling that the controls had issues, go around procedure wrongly done, etc. The terms "almost disaster" "like AF447" etc are sensational and interresting for the médias. But it's not a good representation of what happened. There is no real link to the AF447 because pour CRM leading to incidents happen in all companies each year. Maybe the slot need to be changed for this flight and or a relief pilot is to add, emphasis on CRM to be rised in training. Because this incident has nothing to do with a dynamic stall of an A330 with wrong pitots tubes with pilots lacking training in the middle of the storms due to tropical convergence line at night after departure with 3 crew members. This incident has more to do with the fact that the Covid crisis reduced the recent practice and put enormous pressure on all companies so that unadaptated slot with no relief pilots are maintained. The Covid crisis was followed by a big rise of incident like near miss, loss of situation awareness, loss of control etc. The pilots never had a break so long without flying in the entire history of aviation ! When you know that companies had to burn money on making fly empty aircraft just to make them work the minimum of time and to keep crew proefficiency to at least the minimum for the pilots to not loose their qualifications and licences, you understand the impact. Anyway the pilots of this flight suffered from fatigue, cicardian rythme trouble and lacked of CRM.

@@bonbondesel I do not disagree with you. I'm doing a longer reply,. But for now, the only thing you've missed, or not touched on. Is the very unknown "boredom factor" This mixed with, fatigue, hight stress and anxiety levels, and bad CRM, make for a very volatile mix.

@@bonbondesel excuses

@bonbondesel The crew were inadvertently acting in opposition on the flight controls due to a lack of CRM. In that regard this flight IS like AF447, even though the reason the pilots ended up looking like The Three Stooges is different. Claiming that there is no similarity to AF447 because CRM-related accidents happen in all companies each year is not a valid argument as the prevalence of CRM-deficiency incidents has no bearing on the degree of similarity to AF447. In fact, inadvertent opposition is a rare enough occurrence to make both flights notable. The news media uses terms like "near disaster" because they are in the advertising business-not the news business-and attention-grabbing sensational news is their way of exposing the reader/viewer to the third party advertising that pays their electric bill. If the news is not attractive enough, they will recruit Pinocchio to make it so. Still, to say that the flight was nowhere near serious danger when the control column's safety break mechanism activated-twice-due to the pilots' shenanigans you have to be unaware or recklessly dismissive of how quickly such control opposition can jeopardize continued safe flight and landing. An Egypt Air 767 nose dived into the sea when the control columns similarly disconnected to independent left & right control channels, albeit the FO was desperately suicidal. Did the BEA Preliminary Report cite a lack of recent flight experience due to COVID-19 as a contributing factor, or are you speculating about it?

@@petep.2092 It's crazy as people on internet want to judge, simplify things and make people say what they didn't say to argue. I'm gonna make it brief as I don't have the time to make endless debate, I'm pretty sick having Covid. I never said the slot of the flight, the fact that it is the worst moment for cicardian rythme with a flight long but not obliging to add a relief pilot is the sole explanation to the incident nor excuse the poor CRM. I did not even suggested it. I did not either said that because it can happen elsewhere, AF or and these pilots have no responsibilities in that. You put that in my mouth. Now, I say it again to be clear once and for all: I just wanted to add this information and it's a first end information coming directly from Air France pilots experienced with this flight. Yes there was a phenomenon of over mediatization and the flight was not close to disaster, it's not writren in the BEA reports that the flight came close to it. Never. Media said it. it was analyzed like this by some aviation experts like for example "ATE" airliner pilot, former US Navy F-18 pilot, former French rafale and other figther jets pilot and conceller in aviation safety. If you want to disregard or contradict these kind of expertises, it's up to you. And yes events like that happen in a companies, but not all come to media this way. Yes it is my humble opinion that Covid can have played a role in pilots proefficiency and also yes aviation experts and pilots suggest that the rise of incidents recently could be related to that. Now I'm sick of people trying to confront only for pleasure on internet and asking for more and more over the time to try to prove they are right I just wanted to add an information that is important because in any flight, context play a role. Now if you want to use it to interpret as excuses to mistakes of the crew or Air France training, in order to blame Air France and the crew, go ahead, any pilot or aviation expert know that incidents are not so simple, But let me ask you back the question : You want me to quote the BEA reports because you think I'm saying wrong things to give excuses to AF or pilots, OK, and you ? IN WHICH OFFICIAL REPORT DID YOU READ THAT THE INCIDENT IS LINKED TO AF447 ? I'm just having the same demands as you have towards me ! Answer this because I read the reports and it's not mentionned anyway I just wanted to add an information but on internet people are there to blame and to create confrontation and endless debate. Now if you have an information about this specific flight, go ahead. I brought one with no will of discrediting or judging anyone or even excuse anyone. The issue is that people are there for that. And it's exhausting. It becomes difficult to just bring an informations without being constently sollicitated agressively to take part in sterile debates you don't want. Over.

Glad you enjoyed it!

You cant blame a pilot for becoming disoriented & tired or getting confused. Do you see how different your own neighborhood looks when snow covers the streets or its dark & rainy at night? It does not look the same.

@@sharoncassell9358 They are pilots for a reason.

Look at our country leaders. They are reduced to simple street fighters creating war and cutthroat voting campaigns. Now children play nice.

That's human nature 😮😮😮

Well put. Completely agree. The human element..

Des prix elevés, un service qui laisse a désirer(pour etre gentil) et des idiots incompétant a bord, vraiment du genie cette compagnie

Pas que chez Air France malheureusement : en tant que Français qui a travaillé aussi bien en France qu'à l'étranger et qui travaille avec différentes nationalités, je peux vous certifier à quel point les Français sont archi-mauvais quand il s'agit de travailler en équipe, voire même archi-cons ! Parce qu'à la limite, d'autres nationalités qui n'auraient pas le sens du travail en équipe sont toujours prêtes à apprendre. Les Français, pas du tout !

You picked up one of the most important cause of this incident: fatigue. But the regulations do not require a relief pilot to be mandatory for a flight so long as surprising as it might be. The detail that a lot of people miss is that it is a return flight at the worst time for the cicardian rythme (sleep rythme) So much that US companies don't take this slot for a good reason: it gives too much fatigue due to sleep rythme disruption and fatigue accumulation. A wide numbers of pilots said that this flight is one of the most difficult to do in terms of fatigue. One of the most challenging. It plays a great role in this incident.

Thanks!

You mean PLANdemic; get it right.

Plannedemic

Good to see you here dlc!

Yea, not rocket science. Basic " who's in control" .

@@IDontWantAHandle101 Yes.

France is far from being the sole country to speak the national language also in busy international airports. In Italy it's the same, in Spain it's the same, in Portugal it's the same, etc etc. You've got big hubs where pilots and ATC can speak Italian, Spanish, etc. It's like this in numerous place in the world and has nothing to do with nationalism. In any country it's easier to communicate in the mother's tongue language than in another. French pilots don't have more difficulties than the others to communicate in English in US busy airports. French are not as good as German in English concerning accent and grammar, but they have no specific issues in standard English for aviation. The fact that they speak French in France has nothing to do in this incident. And this airport did not "abandonned" the international language as anyone can communicate in English even French crews who often do it to keep proefficiency. And by the way, Charles De Gaulle airport did not have more issues than others because of misunderstanding with French communication. I don't even know if such issues happened here the last decade...

@@bonbondesel SURE adds to everyone elses "situational awareness" and safety. This stupidity leads to Tango Uniform incidences. cut the excuses!

@@bartsolari5035 thanks for your severe judgment on France ! It's very kind and productive to use terms like stupidity etc... Thanks for the very polite exchange that would have sure been the same from you in real life with the respect of social codes you seem to be mastering 😉

@@bonbondesel I call it as I see it. you did make some important statement as to what may lead up to these incidents. What is of concern is that these issues are "known" but at times NOT dealt with. As to AF, it is my belief that AF has the equipment and training and record to be with the best carriers in Europe. I do NOT severely judge the French, but these two pilots were not following...who is flying, who is monitoring. I hold the FAA in the U.S. in contempt with laxs oversight claiming budget issues. The U.S. can piss away money with a 20 yr war in Afghanistan, but CANNOT fund the FAA to do its job, rubbish. Boeing self certifies the MAX and buries the existence and effects of MCAS, pure lies. There are way too many things that are dealt with "after" people die. BTW, the French do have a sense of their culture and I applaud that. Americans seem to be at each others throats. Bonne journee mon ami!

@@bonbondesel Using another language than standard Aviation English in the radio communication environment of an international airport is a MAJOR safety issue. We use English for ATC communication for the important reason that ALL pilots on the same frequency can understand the whole traffic situation = situational awareness. If French ATC and French pilots use their own French language to communicate in such an environment it is not only against the LAW of ICAO. It is also disregarding an important safety aspect. And by the way one more point: French is not only a language - it's also a philosophy of life. (France is a GREAT nation - French "is" (WAS) the language of international diplomacy. It would help aviation safety in a threefold way if Air France AND French ATC would be required to adhere to English communication all the time: -1- All the remaining pilots in an ATC environment would understand what is going on. -2- The French pilots would be introduced to standard intra-cockpit (cross-pilot) communication procedures that are up to international safety standards. When they have to switch to English they would be reminded that they are NOT at home with their family and NOT in a restaurant, but in a professional environment where safety and CRM (cockpit resource management) are most important. -3- By using the official aviation terms and cockpit relevant expressions ALL the time while in the cockpit, they would be more fluent in Aviation English when communicating with ATC in those countries where English is strictly used.

Well this is not an accident, only an incident that could have been unnoticed if they hadn’t hit the PTT button.

So WHAT are you flying, and for whom? Just so I can learn where to get pilot training...

@@axel-stephanesmrgrav7036 I am currently flying B747s. For your pilot training, you could obtain you pilot's certifications via several flight schools available throughout the USA if you are here, otherwise I'll suggest that you check with your local aeronautical authorities, to find out a good flight school for you.

@@afreightdogslife The 777 cockpit is not that different than 747. this incident is on Air France. many other airlines like United and British Airways have also used the 777 for a long time, and yet they have not had this kind of incident.

@[Blank] I just watched the video once again because I had forgotten the story. Again, I stand by my previous statement. You are correct stating that these other airlines use the same type of aircraft, the B777-300, and they don't seem to suffer the kind of incidents that AF is suffering from. It appears to be a pilot induced problem due to a lack of enforcement of CRM and other training issues and not aircraft related.

There is smth like that in Airbus.

@@michapeka2800 Jup, that seems to be the case! I found an interesting article from an-aviation named "How does the control joystick in Airbus aircraft work?" I would post the link, but RU-vids horrible censorship prevents that, even if I competely disable it...

All it takes is 3 words, "I have control." More training for that captain I think.

@@bartsolari5035 Omg have you ever had Air France coffee? It's like dark acid!

As I was watching the clips, I was constantly saying WTF WTF. I'm still saying WTF.

Why would one disconnect the A/P at 1,500’ when IMC in the first place and expected cloud brake at 300’. This was the first red flag when watching . ( PS , was B777 qualified ) Like Asiana , one cannot design aircraft to be flown by these type of people. Not to mention adherering to company SOPs or best practices. I was not perfect by a long shot, but still , the mind boggles !

If you spoke the same native language as the controller in a situation like this, then I think that speaking it is totally appropriate. The only thing that matters here is clear communication between ATC and the flight crew… whether that be in French, German, Japanese etc.

The French refuse to speak English unless absolutely necessary...

@@lewbro1234 no, it's actually extremely against regulations.

@@astridvvv9662 so if you were placed in an emergency situation, and you and the controller both spoke the same language, but you insisted on speaking English because of ‘rules’, and you ended up crashing or getting into a loss of separation situation etc (and you survived)… you would have a very difficult time explaining that to a magistrate as to why you decided to communicate in English. If the safest course of action is to speak your local fluent language then a court of law would back you 100%. The pilot in command has authority to break any rule they want if it leads to a safe outcome in an emergency situation.

I was wondering about that too. I understand that the emergency crew speaks French to ATC, but the revoking of the climbing clearance to the other air France plane that was taking off was done in French too. For other aircrew around the airport who don't speak French that could have been important information if it had been done in English.

No it is not. And you are true for the US, standard language is English but not used by ATC

You're right, the ICAO has established English as the language of aviation and pilots, mechanics, flight controllers, dispatchers, etc. have to demonstrate english language proficiency to an acceptable level for that job. France ATC are not the only ones who violate that convention. I've heard ATC use Arabic on some trans-Mediterranean routes. They do so with self-centered disregard for the deterioration in safety that ensues and the peril to other english-only-speaking flights, which lose at least some situational awareness due to not knowing what the non-English speaking aircraft are doing or can be expected to do.

This again. I've had so many arguments about ICAO languages. Normally with Americans.

@@bayard42350 Rubbish. Internationally the language IS English (even with an accent)

@@watchtellyinuk actually not, there are six languages allowed according to ICAO. Arabic, French, Spanish, Russian, Chinese and English.

Special dispensation i dunno but in France, at and French carriees discuss in french on any airport, in Germany local company speaks German to the atc ...

They're terrible

@@electricpaper269 are you serious ? to get pilot in France, you need a serious training (that is 2 years for Air France trained pilots and not just simulators of course)

Like a see-saw, close to the pivot point (center of gravity) there will not be much vertical movement due to a pitch change, whereas at the ends of the long beam like a 777 there would be much more vertical movement. The 777 has pitch rate limiting which keeps the vertical speed of pax at the nose and tail-due to pitch changes, to a reasonable level.

Liar.

SAUCRE BLEW !!!!

The French tire easily and revert to speaking French when tired or irritated.

French is also an authorised language in this context : ICAO - "In which Languages has a Licence Holder to Demonstrate Proficiency? Amendment 164 to Annex 1 has introduced strengthened language proficiency requirements for flight crew members and air traffic controllers. The language proficiency requirements apply to any language used for radiotelephony communications in international operations. Therefore, pilots on international flights shall demonstrate language proficiency in either English OR the language used by the station on the ground. Controllers working international services shall demonstrate language proficiency in English as well as in any other language(s) used by the station on the ground.

@@lours6993 Well, that is something I was not aware of. Thank you for informing me. Despite that, however, I feel that using a non-common language will increase the chance of accidents due to reduced situational awareness. If the pilots and controllers are all proficient in English anyway, which they should be, why not use it? Even if only for the benefit of other aircraft in the area.

So in Air France crew Landing and France can’t speak French? Really?

WHAT THE FUCK HAS TO DO WITH THIS INCIDENT ??? the problem was between two people not correctly communicating with each other, FR or EN = same results (even worst in EN because adds a useless amount of effort for this specific issue).

Thanks!

@@GreenDotAviation AF has Never "left one up there".

You should never fire pilots for doing mistakes. That would only bring pilots to never report their mistakes. And if mistakes are never reported they can't be fixed. You should only fire people if they hide their mistakes. Because that is alot more dangerous. Sure this sounds like an infuriating mistake. But I would rather these pilots report their mistake and get some more training/simulator time/education then them trying to hide and possible redo this mistake and it turning into a crash.

@@Semperfy37681 Yes, indeed.

And maybe you can imagine that this crew never ever had an issue in their whole career before this incident.

Yeah, that stuck out to me as well! I though that it was the standard worldwide to speak english in all communication to ATC. It's always the French bending the rules for nationalism >.

Yeah it sounds like they're being deliberately ignorant for no apparent reason.

@@AIRDRAC actually, the Japanese and the Russians also routinely use their language instead of English.

@@AIRDRAC and the Canadians in Quebec, and all the countries that speak Spanish, and the Chinese. In other word more people that the English speaking people

I sort of like the use of the local language, it ads culture, traditions and a sense of what the hell is going on and adds an element of surprise...idiots

To be honest we don't even know what CRM means ...

Panicking is human nature....training is supposed to be the countermeasure for it 😮😮😮

Appreciate it!

Thank you 🙏🏼