The Insidious Erasure of Straightwashing 

Please pin this, i have to scroll really down to see this, /nm

thank you for the correction! please pin this comment, i had to scroll quite a while to find it 💀

​@@everfluctuating that's strange, it's pinned for me - I've tried unpinning and re-pinning again - is it showing up for you properly now?

@@nuclearpancake3683 that's strange, it's pinned for me - I've tried unpinning and re-pinning again - is it showing up for you properly now?

@@HeyRowanEllis for me it isn't pinned either

don't forget turning Zoisite into a woman so that he and Kunzite wouldnt be gay

that was intentional, the networks forced the censorship and the people doing the dub didn't want to, so they protested by *technically* complying with the censorship while making the gay relationship as obvious as possible.

Actually the Archie comics has multiple universes and there shouldn’t be one canon. In the past Jughead did date, was involved in a love triangle and was married to Midge. Because of that I don’t care if Riverdale didn’t make him aroace. As a aroace myself I’m happy that Riverdale didn’t make Jughead aroace. I would have watched it knowing the show ended up being a huge dumpster fire. Edit: yes I know aroace and asexuality isn’t the same thing. I have known some people that are asexual and in a happy relationship. My comment is based mostly on other people’s reaction which I can’t blame because Jughead was confirmed aroace around 2016. Before that his sexuality was up for interpretation.

Writers like to have characters hook up.

I'm glad that someone was thinking this besides me - a fellow aroace

XD

Before the show came out I was at a convention that Chip Zdarsky had a panel at. It the panel the show came up and he said 'I hope they don't turn it into Jughead f&

It's the best thing on earth

I want to know reactions in theaters. It HAD to be hilarious right?

EXACTLY HAHAHA

@@gogreen2496 someone talked about it in these very comments lol

i mean i don't like call me by your name since it's like. just gross in regards to the age difference but otherwise i agree

Best comment lol

you deserve an award for this comment x)

You're not special because you are sexually confused stop treating straightness as abnormal when it's basic biology and is the reason both me and you are existing now posting pointless things on RU-vid. I know you won't take this to heart anyways.

Nice comment 😂

Aha good one 😁

Not to mention they had the guts to firmly make both characters bisexual, especially Poison Ivy who often gets depicted as a lesbian. Even in queer coded media, bisexual erasure is a big thing.

If they are both bisexual why do you call their relationship a lesbian one? We have the term sapphic for these cases.

It makes SO MUCH sense to make them a couple instead of queer baiting and the showrunners claiming they are pro-LGBTQ. This straightforward representation is a breath of fresh air.

since they're both bi, it would probably be more accurate to use the words sapphic or queer!

Catwoman too! Having on screen confirmation of Selina's bisexuality was so great to see. This show is the gift that keeps on giving.

lmao you're not wrong... but also makes it sound like he doesn't have (m)any black friends either

...and his black friend's name is SUPAFLY.

Well, since we don't fit his "aesthetic," I would say this is probably accurate.

He doesn't really seem to like people who are not wh*te tbh.

So, if he grew up watching Blaxploitation films... I'm assuming they somewhat inspired his passion for filmmaking, right? So why on Earth does he claim that Black people don't fit his aesthetic?

Just another reason for me to love the videogame Hades. In there, the main character Zagreus can have a very sexual, sadomaso-ish relationship with a female character Megeara, or a very tender, helplessly romantic relationship with a male character Thanatos. :D Edit: Also, Queen Maeve from "The Boys" sleeps around with guys when she was feeling depressed and needed sex, but her ultimate romantic relationship is with a woman.

It might depend on the writer's sexuality, in a CW Out Panel Caity Lotz actually said that she liked how her character (Sarah Lance) wasn't written based on a stereotype and instead was just open to both even if she tells Greg Berlanti that when she was auditioning she didn't see anything about her character being explicitly bisexual. During the run of "Legends of Tomorrow" her character has relationships with both men and women, but doesn't have a committed same-sex relationship until near the end of Season 3 and similarly during a ClexaCon interview Chyler Leigh said that before Season 2 of "Supergirl" she spoke with the writers when they'd told her that they were going to make her character (Alex Danvers) a lesbian and they worked together to ensure the storyline of her coming out was done delicately

Most bi men are weirdos In a good way of course

Did she stay and watch?

A strange marketing tactic indeed, but I've got to admit that stories like this are pretty hilarious

@@joanapitanguinha150 Sooo funny

At that point, he had already given them his money. Not a bad strategy at the time

i may be pulling at threads here, but i also thought it was strange & was wondering if it was a tactic to purposely create negative commentary about queer cinema. if homophobes were being duped into seeing these queer pictures, then it wouldn't be too far out to reason that they would leave negative press about the film - either specifically because they were duped, or because they were outraged by the content as a whole. in turn, this negative press could be used by studios to perpetuate not making more queer cinema ("see? other people hated these films, so there isn't a reason to keep making them!" sort of thing).

@@nightwingdefeatingbadguys enlightened Nightwing fans in this thread

that's really sweet:)

W grandad

“Pride” was such a wonderful movie. It brought me to tears. Seeing one marginalized group stand up for another was beautiful.

W old dude

@@123videos456 dude so true! In the end when the miners show up for Pride and that Billy Bragg/brass band version of There Is Power in a Union is playing - instant crying for me, yup.

yes!

My guess is that if Spielberg didn't push for it, the movie never would have been made

That's complicated, I think. No Hollywood studio in 1985 thought making a movie about a black lesbian woman was worth doing at all. It happened the other way around - Spielberg is, without much competition, the most commercially successful director of all time, he made it in his own studio (Amblin), and it's because he wanted to make the movie that it got to the screen at all, and was as widely distributed and watched and reviewed and nominated as it was. Which is not to say that's an ok state of affairs, it's certainly not, but that is the reality of the time. Should Spielberg have made the movie? That's a complicated question too. Color Purple was the first major studio movie centering black women. The only thing that comes close was the Lady Sings the Blues - the 1972 Motown film about Billie Holiday staring Diana Ross. It was definitely the first centering multiple black women and black lesbian women. Spielberg had just come off 8 record busting hits in a row - Jaws, E.T., Indiana Jones, etc. He could do anything he wanted. His name was gold, it basically guaranteed a hit. And he decided to make this movie, he decided to use his uniquely massive privilege in industry to platform some of the least represented people. He didn't retell the story centering white people, like SOOO many of the Civil Rights movies. I think it's easy to underestimate how revolutionary that was for mainstream Hollywood at the time. 3 black women were nominated for Oscars from the Color Purple, the first time more than one black woman had been nominated in the same film, and never for an explicitly lesbian role. Point being, could an adaptation of the Color Purple done a better job representing black lesbian women? Absolutely. Did Spielberg make choices that water-down the book (including adding a happy ending)? Absolutely. But let's also not lose sight of how much better a job The Color Purple did of representing black lesbian women than the prior 60 years of US cinema.

@@camipco Thanks for this perspective. I didn't know the history of the film adaptation. It's still a shame he watered down the sapphic relationship and the lesbian identity of the main character, but we can appreciate the big stride forward. What's sad is that 4 decades later, studios still operate the same way as if the strides of The Color Purple adaptation were the finish line rather than a good start to a longer journey.

@@pmtoner9852 It probably wouldn't have.

yes, I thought of that, too. It is definitley not talked about sincerly that he is gay, it is stated like a cold fact

Also tragic seeing people ignoring his questioning of gender present in his later work or misinterpreting it. Dude was forced to be chemically castrated after his invaluable service.

He had the poetically gayest life. It sounds fictional but he lived it all.

To those complaining, knock it off. The film states he was gay. That should be enough. It was a biopic, not a romcom. And coming from a bisexual man I found the story to be very heart wrenching and moving. The movie was about his contributions to science, the war, and the tragedy of his situation. It was a fine film and doesn't need to be changed because someone thinks it wasn't enough. Think about this, if HE saw it today? What would he think? If you can answer me that question? Then my ears are wide open and I'll happy listen and have a conversation

@@ahmanetbones9496 considering he killed himself over their inhumane treatment, probably angry that Weinstein interfered with the script to leave it on a more unearned happier ending.

Imagine thinking Vi finding Cait hot is out of character 💀

Even if she was straight it would have been in character (not that she is). Trying to tell argue that the no nonsense street kid who doesnt put on airs.. would suddenly decide to not be direct? Executives are fools who see woman and cant imagine them being anything other than demure in respect to s3x and attractiveness.

@@boserboser6870 Vi literally has a line in league saying they need to hurry it up cause “I have a date, and she hates when I’m late.” As IF it’s out of character or she’s not fruity 😭

I think that was a producer, not Riot. Riot basically plaster up Vi and Cait for any pride material that they can

One of my great joys in life is that in League, one of Caitlyn's death lines is, "Tell Vi I..."

Yessssss it is hilarious, and as a bi girl the erasure of destiny and rogue's story when it comes to mystique has always had me pissed lol they just put her with all four of the male leads in the movies RIP

Must be in newer stories. I read quite a lot Deadpool comics, and I can't remember the character being a horn dog.

While your description is correct in a way, the sequel to Deadpool was very obviously trying to adapt Deadpool's relationship with Lady Death. In the comics it's his most standard relationship, and when it comes to Deadpool, about his only real love story. I'm queer. I love Deadpool. And I had 0 problem with this depiction because I still think at the end of the day they got the character right.

Ngl he gets straight-washed a lot in the comics too. Any time he shows attraction towards men it's either something that can be played off as a joke (see; his interactions with Thor, Wolverine or Frank Castle), something that can be written off as just "totally just a very close male friendship ha ha" like with Cable or pure unrelenting queerbait/fujobait like with the Spideypool series. He should've had at least one genuine reciprocal thing with a man (or been with Cable years ago but that's a whole other story 💀) by this point imo.

Wait you guys think deadpool is straight washed,no he flirts with colossus like a lot

I loved the show so much I was like "Finally!"

I always hated the casting of that movie. I had cast it in my mind when I read it with Sting as Lestat and Daniel Day-Lewis as Louis and I could just never unsee that. lol I'm not sure Sting could have pulled it off acting wise but he was fantastic in the role in my inner movie.

Thanks for the informative and interesting post

I saw the movie when I was a child and I didn't see anything between Louis and Lestat,I always thought that Claudia and Louis were a couple growining up.

@@dhsf5937 I saw it quite young too, and I did see it. It wasn't in your face, but it was definitely there. I personally think Claudia was more of a child Lestat 'got' for Louis, so he won't feel so isolated - kind of pushing Louis into the 'traditional' role of a woman (not ideal either, the role or the idea of that role). To me it seemed Claudia was internally becoming a grown up stuck in her childs body and might have fallen in love with Louis - in my eyes he loved her like a daughter until the end.

"Aggressively Non-binary" I love this. Goes to show what a fanbase can do. It's so annoying that Cartoon Network just didn't make them non-binary in the first place or even now just confirm it because of how well of a reception they've had by viewers. It's so stupid

It's insulting to women to suggest that Lake does not count as one.

@@VPWedding No it isn't. And if you think it is, you have some issues you need to work through.

@@VPWedding Why?

@@VPWedding I do.

I was going to comment that. That was one of my favorite movies growing up, but I only read the book it's based on a couple of years ago. I was floored. I always thought the movie was very gay because of the subtext that is still there, but people around me seemed to not see it that way. So when I finally read the book, I felt both vindicated and shocked at how straightwashed it was. By the way, I would have to check, but I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the two main actresses were against cutting their romance and did their best to portray their romantic love with how they played off each other, even if the script itself removed any direct references. It is probably also one those cases where their queerness were so intrinsic to the story and the characters as a whole, as Rowan mentioned, that it's just impossible to tell that story without at least that subtext...

@@ma_alva I'm so glad someone else loves this story. My sister and I read it years ago and have been trying to spread the word ever since. I feel like I also read that about the main actresses. They did a great job with what they had to work with.

@@odie4bre They really did! They are both so talented and have such great on-screen chemistry, I saw them as a couple even before I could fully understand what being gay meant, let alone in the movie's setting. I was literally a kid. I need to go rewatch that... It's been many, many years, and I haven't even watched it since I read the book...

@@ma_alva Sounds about right. I read somewhere too the flour scene was meant to be subtext or like a nod or something basically to confirm they were meant to be lovers. Like it was written in as a low-key middle finger to acknowledge they were lovers but the explicitness had to be cut, so the flour fight scene was added in

They cut the sex scene and made it a food fight.

An archilles even :( , i mean ther seems be the marvels loosely based but else, yeah the great thing is gods were relative indicriminate, like a bloody zodiac, is one of zeuses lovers. and yeah even hera is pretty indiscriminate going after zeuses lovers there. and thats near all of the gods, except hades is pretty loyal, apearently, an hestia, and maybe athena ace

The video game Hades thankfully averts this! Quite a few gay/bi greek mythological characters in that.

That would be the male half lol there was nothing more masculine to the ancient Greek and Romans than to be so magnetically male enough to have a stream of male lovers...

Artemis and Athena were essentially canonically aroace in the mythology. It one of the poems (I can’t remember which), it says that Aphrodite (love and sex) holds no power over them. Unfortunately, this is because of misogynistic ideals in Ancient Greece, so yeah. Most queer rep in Greek mythology is because of misogyny, actually.

@Ella Haha No I wonder if artemis was maybe demi romantic, but there's argument for anything, we'll never really know the original intension or which story was the original interpretation, and on the aroace side of the spectrum either way

It’s such an odd pattern

It's much better nowadays, but it pains me to remember the kinda shit Sailor Moon did to appease homophobes. "They're cousins" was their "They were roommates."

@@bobmanperson599 Yeah, while I think its a tad bit better now, personally I'd say that the dark magical girl subgenre has done the most damage to this entire genre, as it was mostly made by men for men and you know they went down hill from there.

@@bobmanperson599 I find it funny, that , oh you didnt straghtwash it, you want jut localize with sweet hiome alabama. And how they made the starlets trans to cover up the same sex?! But its a crime they left out in the rose movie the bickring of the girls about how that dude is really havig something with mamoro. And they made one dud of th first main 4, into not a dude , which makes no sense. (also good couple)

Huh? aren't most modern Magical Shows super gay, even when they don't outright say it? Madoka, Nanoha, Precure, Symphogear, etc. even the classics like Sailor Moon and CCS had gay shit even if the main couple was F/M.

But it's also a great contrast because the same company did the dub in Spanish which allowed them to be queer

that is interesting.

And even a lot of canon ace rep is either limited to it being revealed outside of the work by the creators or executed in such a way that the "asexual" part can be ignored by audiences. It's frustrating.

the issue is that it is very diffuicult to represent that when it can be hard to actually represent, because its hard to really represent that in a story. You can easily make it clear that characters are in a relationship for any other romantic/sexual orientation, then with trans and nonbinary characters, the pronouns used can make things clear. People need to put a LOT more effort for aromantic and asexual representation, and so a lot of writers don't put in much effort to try to make it clear. A lot of it still does come from erasure and stuff but at the same time, as someone who wants to get into writing myself I can easily see how it is a lot more complicated to represent compared to other queer topics.

@@Savariable maybe someone will make an asexual peacock cartoon. like Happy Feet, but not.

In a sense Barbie has ace and aro representation. Barbie is basically aroace

@@Savariable I mean you could have a character ask them something along the lines of "And what about you? Do you got a special someone?", since these conversations are both small-talk and often enough occur in reality to not feel forced. Aro/ace character could answer with something like "Nope, not my thing. Never been in love either, and I don't think that's gonna happen any time soon." You could obviously alter that conversation to fit the specific sexuality and clear up misconceptions, but a conversation like that takes less than two minutes and is easy to do in every genre. Aro/ace being a sexuality of absence only means that it's hard to show, but telling should be easy. To add to OP's comment, what also drives me nuts is fandom reactions to a heavily implied aro/ace character. Saiki K for example is an anime about a dude with psychic powers who just wants to be left alone and is heavily aro/ace coded. He shows no interest towards the two girls that desperately try to grab his attention. But for some reason, some parts of the fandom take that as a "he must be gay then" (despite him never showing any interest in guys either), instead of a "maybe he's just aro/ace". It seems that we are completely non-existent to them.

I hear this all the time but i have yet to find any evidence of Ruby having for example a male voice actor or being reffered to with male pronouns. I know they did't air certain episodes in some regions and toned some voice lines down, but i think the original claim is mostly BS.

Tbf, Rebecca Sugar isn't really an individual whose content I want to consume to begin with. She's kinda problematic

@@amiccus_ Ok i fail to see why.

@@amiccus_ why is Sugar problematic?

@@amiccus_ How exactly is Sugar problematic?

That would be so cool! I’d watch it. I think I’ve seen a fanfic with a slightly similar concept

I now want to see this hypothetical movie even though I have no idea how that would actually work

Ooh, which way are we talking? Do they literally realize they're fictional characters, or are they in some terrifying Truman Show situation in-universe?

@@perrisavallon5170 Or maybe it's a little bit more "somebody/something has altered reality to eliminate these things" and leave them ultimately unable to find out who/what is doing it all, and keep the censorship parallels in (heavy) subtext.

Would definitely watch/read that.

There are people like that? They must be coming from an alternate universe or sumthing 😭

@the cool nice guy🎩 ah yes, the fetishization of sapphics. so unfortunately common.

@@camrosie to be fair there's also the fetishisation of homoromantic relationship in the boys love community that originated from yaoi

@@crazydragy4233 yep, there indeed is, and all of it needs to stop. I was just responding specifically to that comment.

No they don't. This dynamic becomes a thing because most marvel and dc fans in 2023 aren't actually fans of comics, but movies and thus, have no real understanding of comic heros villians and vigilantes

I think that's really important. There's still a pretty strong anti-LGBT+ narrative which claims queerness is symptomatic of modern society being 'degenerate', or that the spectrums of sexuality & gender identity are just some kind of fad? Due to decades of censorship, our history books and popular arts often appear to support that viewpoint too. I think it's vital that our current creators keep highlighting the many historical examples of queer identity, and retelling those stories in effective ways, in order to show that this is an intrinsic part of our shared humanity.

@@anna_in_aotearoa3166 100% agree! I am now actively seeking out such videos so I can learn and share with others!

Yes! I didn't even know it was an option. Thought I was a late bloomer or something. Now 42 single, happy, and childfree 😜

@@lkf8799 That's awesome!

Hope you watched Derry Girls!

Completely agree. I didn't know asexuality was an option. Just thought maybe I was a late bloomer and hadn't found the right guy ... Still happy, single, and childfree at 42 😜

​@@lkf8799Same. Had a boyfriend because thats what you are supposed to do and was absolutely perplexed to realize that people really are that sex-obsessed and that its not just exagerated propaganda to make people reproduce.

I think I watched the first season of that, cause it seemed a little bit promising at the start with good character/actor combos, but then at the end I realized that the ladies had been called multiple variations of 'hole' more than their actual names and just deleted it's entire existence from my brain. Never look back.

Also he is , yeah, like if they kept him ace, that would be fine, disapointing but be fine, but the really distracting romance, whyyyy. The only good thing is vlad and that frienemy he has,

Leonardo (2021) is gay af. Check it out, it's not bad.

Calling antiquity figures gay is a bit inaccurate. Before individualism became accepted, personal identities like that weren’t really a thing. You would be more accurate saying Greco-Roman culture was bi, but individuals were not really allowed to have sexualities, and at the very least “gay” would have had a very different meaning. Sexuality for an individual (versus enforced by what is good for society) is a modern concept, gender is context dependent, and both are very valid identities today, but really weren’t in the past (before early 1800s or if you really want to stretch it to philosophers, the 1600s at the earliest in European culture), and likely won’t be in the future (I’ve talked to multiple professors who specialize in this, including one from Harvard, and they are in agreement that we are likely moving towards a “universal queer” where everyone agrees that no labels perfectly apply to anyone, and society as a whole rejects labels; this is probably at least a couple of generations away, but could happen in some of our lifetimes). Edit: for an example that showed same sex desire but avoided the anachronism of “sexuality as identity”, see The Favourite; there was undeniably some queer desire happening, but given it was set in a time when most didn’t even get to choose their own “straight” partners, the idea of “not marrying a man” was never even considered by any of the characters (except maybe the queen). This is what I mean when I say sexuality wasn’t really a thing until individualism came in preaching self-determination.

The show runners wanted to do an Assassins Creed movie and didn't think to look up anything about Da Vinci, even though Assassins Creed pointed out he was gay.

the movie is literally about the interaction between gay activists and miners like its literally the main plot lmao

@@stormagedon3852 I mean. It was still made to be quite palatable for general audiences. None of the gay characters are particularly flamboyant or femme. And they don't even mention that Mark Ashton was a communist.

@@Pan-optic never said that's not true just that it's hilarious to remove all hint of queerness in the marketing of the film when it is one that's very explicitly about queers

@@stormagedon3852 No, that's fair, I wasn't disagreeing with you. Just adding that you can still have movies about queers that are kind of acceptable-washed for non-queer audiences.

@@Pan-optic people shout anti communist insults at him and one of the first scenes of the film has his apartment with a big ol' hammer and sickle on the wall?

cis het but love both of those shows so sad owl house was cut short.

Owl House was really great and wholesome, but tbh the main relationship in She-Ra is extremely toxic and not a great example of how a relationship should be, like I wouldn't want my kids to think that their relationships should be like that at all. Not to mention, the creator of that show and various other members of the creative team are just... assholes.

@@amiccus_ Yeah, The Owl House is great, but I could not finish She-Ra for the life of me. The dynamic between Catra and Adora was painful to watch, and I honestly have to say that as a bi person it helped me accept my own queerness far less, I had always been taught being sapphic was inherently toxic, and the fact that this was shown on screen only reaffirmed what had been already ingrained in my psyche. Obviously this isn't the only cause of my internalized biphobia but it did not make things any better.

@@amiccus_ I don't know the background of the creators. She-Ra is the first sapphic cartoon I watched so it has a special place in my heart. Yes, Catra is not the best character, but I didn't think of the toxic relationship because I have watched it as an adult. All I can say is that besides all of that that's still tons of lgbt+ representation that I never saw. I think that's the silver lining.

@@ameliasellers6396 I mean we are taught that being gay is wrong and that's all we know for so long. Their relationship being flawed, for me at least, it's a sign that even wlw relationship can be flawed, we are all human. But then again seeing this as an adult might have made me biased

That makes me so mad! I can't believe people would leave out such a pivotal part of the books

@@jaywilliams4216 right? It’s literally a romance book. That’s the whole point of the story

wait for real? that's so obnoxious lol. i'm guessing the people straightwashing it hoped that people would ignore the giant Stonewall Award sticker on many reprints of the book.

Why, thats why aything i open when you code gay relationship as "just friends" o course people will read that a gay, becaue a lot are. Why would youplay down, a good romance.

gonna check it out

I didn't mind the womanizer aspect of Quill because it fit into his character growth as a broken young man who never felt like he had connections in the galaxy, as the movies progressed he most certainly lost a lot of those womanizing traits (although sadly mostly because he became focused on Gamora, which is nice in its own way, we likely won't ever see a bisexual Star Lord in the MCU)

@@darkmask5933 The thing is: it doesn't fit with Quill, not with the comic version of Quill that inspired Gunn, and I feel that version was much more complex and interesting than what we got. Of course changes need to be made in adaptation, believe me I get that, but I feel like the "dumb womanizer man who grows up to be decent" trope is already quite common and Gunn didn't really bring anything new to the table. I know I'm alone on this boat because very few people read the 2007-2009 version of Quill, and because the GotG movies are good on their own so no one really cares except me lol

@@mekinot Yeah I get you, no I'm not trying to discount your feelings, Gunn completely reshaped the Guardians, Rocket also was completely and irreversibly revamped as well, nowadays you won't find anyone who isn't more familiar with his modern personality.

Wasn't Peter quill being bi a recent change? Or is that not what you're talking about at all?

Honestly comic book Starlord prior to the movie being released was pretty boring and generic. Just a cookie cuter flyboy who also happens to be the lost heir to a galactic empire. He was basically Luke Skywalker but with less personality. I do like he very much in the more recent comics though. I’d love to see Phyla-Vell and Moondragon. Although I can see why they were cut. It’s already a lot of characters to introduce all at once.

This is so true!!! (I’m currently rewatching the show for the 2nd time)

I was surprised to hear that because the show does a full 180 in the later seasons. The clip that comes to mind is them aggressively making out and Mitch full on straddling Cam lol

It's not "straight washing" though. They aren't called straight, they're not shown crushing on women. It's just having to work around censorship.

​@@magnus6609eh. It's just that as the show went on gayness became more and more accepted so they knew they could show more affection.

the thing is, you act as though there is one single comic with that character, you act as though the timeline where they are gay is THE timeline, iceman was an original xman, one of the first comic books stan lee ever wrote, you are asking movie makers to ignore 800 issues of straight character for one issue of a mediocre lgbtq romance

@@captainstabbin5374 Do you think people will agree with your take?

​@@captainstabbin5374 No. I act as though they used mutant identity as an analogy for queer identity, but left characters that are canonically queer in the closet because actually saying what they wanted to say was too scary for them in 2003. And in almost every movie that followed in the franchise.

@@nicatina not a take, its fact

@@captainstabbin5374 To you, it's a fact. But to all of us, we know it's another shit take. They weren't asking movie markers to ignore "straight characters", I don't know where you got that from. Y'all be putting words into everything that fits your own narrative. Just like how y'all will claim anything is "woke" "political" "pushing an agenda" or "forced" that involves minorities in media nowadays, and when we call you guys out for having an opinion that's so not popular, y'all act like martyrs who are being wrongfully oppressed.

they just want everything to be staright

Isn't there a spiderpool story that's pretty dark?

@@dundundun7215 Just because a story is dark doesn't mean it's deep. Also, charliejacobs issue with MLM relationships being played off as a joke is very prevalent in that story.

Yeah, Deadpool is pan, but only in a jokey “I’ll fuck anyone or anything” way, he isn’t actually played as a genuine bi/pan guy.

@@stevethebarbarian9876 Which sucks, as a genuinely played straight bi/pan deadpool would work really well.

to be fair, nothing about deadpool is serious; he is an entirely joke character, so ofc none of the queer representation is gonna be very serious. I do wish we had more onscreen queer superheros though.

And it worked, in that Modern Family had really high numbers from a Conservative / red-state audience. Like for a lot of Americans, that was the first gay couple they saw on tv. Yeah, it's absolutely integrationist and homonormative, but there's a lot of people who are only ready for homonormative.

@@camipco I'm really glad to hear that :) I'm in the UK so I had no clue the sort of demographic it was reaching in the USA

It's also my understanding that one of the actors is gay, and the other is not, and it took the hetero actor a bit to get used to the idea of kissing a gay man and did t want to do so at first. Of course, if it was scripted and he couldn't do it, they probably would have cast someone else.

That show actually kinda swayed my gfs dad on gay marriage lol. He's a bigot

@@thelemon5069

Samee!! 💖

OMG SAME!! The book is at my library now and I can't wait until I can check it out!!

Rowan rules!!

Oh really? FUCK yeah

I know rowan does a lot of research and that some stuff just gets missed, but I literally had to pause when I heard that error because it caught me off guard here in a cultivated safe space.

Professionally, he goes by ND (pronounced Indy) because he still wants all his work connected under one title, so ND would have actually been more appropriate when referring to him

Showrunner means primary voice actor?

@@legion999 Showrunner is the head writer and executive producer. They quite literally “run the show”.

Oh shit was Eugenie a lesbian?

@@beeaggro2593 definitely, there's a couple of scenes where she clearly prefers a womans company to men, and she's described as a sapphic beauty

Not that vague lol

fwiw, Rowan has definitely talked about Jughead before, iirc there's a whole video on the channel about ace erasure.

@@camipco Yeah, but it's still a great example of queer erasure because (a) the creators who did it were so gleeful in doing so in interviews yet get a pass because of the other visibility in their show and (b) even other aces trot out the 'um AKSHULLY there's a multiverse because comics so only Zdarsky's version is allowed to be ace' chestnut (see earlier comments about Jughead under this video). I've never seen an example of a queer character who's erasure in an adaptation is so defended & celebrated as his, and it is entirely rooted in how many people just don't count asexuality.

@@melasn9836 Oh I definitely agree it's queer erasure. I'm just saying Rowan has spoken to this exact topic, even if she doesn't in this particular video. Here's some videos from Rowan about Ace representation: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-2YJFXqipVOI.html&ab_channel=RowanEllis ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-P6v1J7kQv_c.html&ab_channel=RowanEllis ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-FV7C4xos5pY.html&ab_channel=RowanEllis

Iceman was assumed gay for a while. Kitty was also written to be queer by CC. But yeah, essentially queer characters didn't really start popping up in the mainstream of Marvel until the 2010s. Wherein which characters like Karolina Dean and Val were made queer from the jump

If you’re comfortable, would you comment on how you figured out you were lesbian instead of bi? I’ve identified as bi for the last 10 years but definitely lean more toward women, and I’d like to hear your perspective

@@highonquack6622 Hi , absolutely! My partner and I are polyam but I never had the confidence to date a woman. When I finally did, everything clicked. All the feelings I had that didn't make sense fit and all the things I related to me being weird or having a low sex drive just vanished. My partner is wonderful and supportive so it wasn't just a wrong man scenario. For the first time I believed I was sexy and I craved everyrhing about her. It still took me a few more months to realize it but looking back, I never thought about boys, but it seemed like I had to be with one. Plus I grew up in a small town where no one came out until after they moved away.

@@ashlin8326 thank you for sharing, and I'm glad you understand yourself better now! Hearing about other people's experiences really helps put my own into perspective. Wishing you a beautiful, Sapphic life

well, sexuality is fluid

@@kaiyodei Have to disagree if your a lesbian your a lesbian that's not gonna change

Ooh thx

@Grape :D (Garples)! I remember reading in one of his tweets he is gendefluid. He also goes by indy :)

They kept the beloved part but it does make me want to see the rest of it

Jughead wasn’t necessarily straight washed. A recent writer made him aroace, I was happy when I first heard about it. But Archie is a series and it has multiple universes. Jughead was in relationships in past comics being in a love triangle himself and being married to Midge. The fact Riverdale is a dumpster fire makes me relieved my rare representation isn’t shown there

That one's more a fight between two creators since RAS was also a long-time Archie writer

harkness is one of those characters you just can't really straightwash, honestly doctor who has been surprisingly one of the more progressive franchises over the years

Jack kisses 9 in Series 1 ep 13: The Parting of the Ways and has a relationship with his co-worker throughout the first 3 series of Torchwood + another time agent in Series 2 and a guy from the past in Series 4.

An he does shamelessly flirt with a dude with the season 3 end saga. If i remember he did alo flirt with rose and the doctor.

@@marocat4749 He also flirted with a British soldier in the very first episode he appeared in.

There's also Bill Potts, one of 12's companions, who's a lesbian, working class and generally awesome 🥰

I think they did that in The Old Guard. The author insisted that the scene between Joe and Nicky talking about their love be included in the film and he put it in his contract.

Original authors should write plays instead of novels. Playwrights have control over adaptations which authors don't. If you're in the Dramatists Guild, they can't straight wash your work.

Sadly, that's a good way not to get your story picked up at all.

oh, Heston knew. they even filmed some quite explicit parts which were later cut and never shown

@Embreis No, he didn't. It's a well known story that Gore Vidal, the writer, and the actor playing Marsala came up with the idea of playing Marsala as if he'd been Ben Hur's lover when they were young, but knew Heston would have a fit and so they didn't tell him. The result was a level of uncomfortableness in Heston's performance that fit, in story, as if Ben Hur didn't want to admit it happened, and Marsala is getting ticked off about the rejection.

Yeah it certainly was a choice.

@@Stargazer_Ley ngl the fact they made them cousins to cover up their love implies they think/thought, homosexuality is worse than literal incest

Also funny because the same company did the Spanish dub, where they were lesbians. So it was essentially stating that Latin America would be chill but Americans think literal incest is better

@@caterpillarking I just think that DiC didn't realize the implication of the censorship, nor did they know about all of the physical affection the two showed for each other in the original show. "Oh they aren't kissing or having sex on screen? We can work around that lol" Remember, the dubbing process back in the 90s isn't at all how it is today.

Oh, THIS!

True, although I'm not sure I'd call that straightwashing since they're exactly as gay as JK has ever written them...

oh my god, that is so true 🤣🤣🤣🤣

I mean it's not like Dumbledore was written as explicitly queer in the first place.

I mean in the case of dumbledore, it was less about "losing homophobic audience" and more about trying to distract the *very* present queer audience from finding out about her transphobic, racist, and antisemetic views. It was an effort to say "Look! I cant be bigoted now!! I just right now decided that a character is gay!" when people were slowly realising how antisemitism and racism ridden both her books and the movies were, and she brought it up again when people initially found out about her strong transphobia. She knew the biggest part of her active fandom were "progressive" or queer, so she used (and continues to use new "diverse characters") it as a cover-up to convince her "progressive" audience to stay, not to cater to homophobic audiences.. She was already catering to those audiences. Her "diverse characters" are as one-dimensional, not to mention harmfully depicted, as she can get away with (her trans woman character is literally named 'sir ona' and is voiced by a man...). If anything, she has only queer baited, because it was very clear that she did not intent for any diversity in the first place. Also, PSA for anyone wondering, do not give your money to anything HP related, that money is actively used to fund anti-lgbt movements that are having seriously negative effects in the UK right now. That includes not streaming the movies, the fantastic franchise, not downloading or buying the games (yes even the free mobile game), and do not buy any merch related to it.

I remember a reviewer basically going on a rant on how parents don't know to tell their kids that lesbians exist. And after that she got called out for her shit but she hides her "apology and explanation" behind a paywall. So you have to pay for her saying a bunch of shit

The only thing that made me upset about the kiss was the fact that it was easy to cut out when shown in other countries, but that's the closest thing we're going to get from Disney when it comes to Queer rep without it seeming forced so it's not too bad I guess just wish they could do better.

we need a jury of our *queers* in these test screenings >:I

Isnt LA pretty liberal so, unless youreally are excluding, you get queer people. :(

Honestly though... they're very obviously reinforcing their biases but because it's culture it's somehow invisible and acceptable. Imagine if their testing audience for "feminine hygiene products" (I honestly find the term a little silly but I don't know a more inclusive replacement for non-cis, non-binary ppl) was purely men 💀

But if you do that and only show your movie to a test audience made up of queer people, then you just run into the opposite problem.

Buffy's a fun one since Tara was supposed to be her college girlfriend

@@beeaggro2593 but faith was RIGHT THERE like im shocked it never happened. imglad we got willow and tara, but buffy was the bi icon we deserved

How many were there??

wtf is bi+ is that, like, premium bisexuality?

I'd hazard a guess that it's mostly just because comic book readers are mostly (heterosexual) men. I don't know how many women read comic books, but I cannot imagine the number being anywhere near 50% for there to be equal leaning for both lesbian and gay characters. It is a little sad that to be a heroic character, you have to erase any expression of femininity though. A very 'obvious' gay should also have the same opportunities to be heroic and powerful as any 'butch' ones; at the same time very masculine gay characters should also be afforded to be gay in all ways possible, be that very queer relationships or other characteristics. As a gay man I do feel very alone in terms of superhero characters. Especially living in a non-US or non-UK country where American superhero comics aren't as popular. Thank god for fanfics filling that void for me.

Honestly, the only gay male hero I can think of is Midnighter (although I think he's more of an anti-hero). He is treated as a badass dude, but thinking it through, his partner Apollo doesn't get much of the same treatment? Sure he looks big and masculine, but somehow always ends up becoming a damsel in distress and even a victim of SA, to be saved by his cool badass boyfriend, which never sat right with me.

@@lazyval27 maybe Marvel can muster the courage to make Wiccan and Hulkling into a fully fledged tv show

@@An1llusion in the west maybe. over in [east] Asia their form of comic (manga, manhwa or manhua) attracts quite another audience. also have a look at _yaoi_ or _danmei_

@@embreis2257 Isn't that media is often made by straight women for straight women and fetishises gay relationships? Kinda the mirror of lesbian issue in the west?

I see the show as completely divorced from that edgy mess that the comics are. Stuff like the milk scene would just leave really bad vibes..

I think the boys TV series tries to maintain the queer characters like Maeve in a more heroic light

would people get mad anyway? "yay we have a bisexual character. we don't care how he behaves!" like when people can't decide if they enjoy gay villains or "stop making the bad guy gay, it says gays are bad guys"

thx for sharing your story!

This might sound like a dumb question but how do you know when you have a crush on a woman? In high school I felt like I had crushes on girls but I'd always ignore them. I feel more comfortable with women than men so it felt different. And the envy thing you brought up. It was confusing whether I thought about their beauty because of a crush or because I envied them.

@@mismiserables Well I mean if you get crushes on boys it's the same in essence, of course culture can make denial go a long away but also, if you don't really have crushes on boys but do on girls... it's also kinda obvious there's a different thing happening, which sadly we're often coaxed into misunderstanding

No shit lol

The Simpsons kind of have a lot of queer characters all around and they just kind of roll with it. Smithers and Lenny/Carl have been gay since the time of Matthew Shephard

@@beeaggro2593 Lenny and Carl never came out they hinted at it when Springfield legalize gay marriage it was never official they outed Smithers on the episode win Lisa created her own Barbie

I don't understand though, the movie itself is squeaky clean family entertainment? Why would a teacher object to that, even if he knew that many of the real baseball players were lesbians? It's a Tom Hanks movie basically.

Are you me? Lol

I think there is a term for people who have a hard time separating aestatic and romantic attraction

Sounds like me but not w a husband.

I think the film was in production before the sequel book that fully confirmed Leah's and Abby's bisexuality but it's still baffling that a thin actress was cast as Leah and her plot was changed so she had an out of nowhere crush on Simon. I'm also devastated there's never going to be an adaptation of Leah On The Offbeat.

But ask anyone who grew up watching the character, as I did, and most would say that of course she wasn't straight. Also, Fred is frantically clutching the closet door and using Daphne as his beard.

@@keith6706 I grew up watching the original series and never saw that. It always felt like velma and shaggy had a thing but shaggy was too much of a lay about and unintelligent for her to truly date him long term.

@Will N "Based on" does not mean "slavishly follow" or "cannot deviate from original". The shows "Elementary" and "Sherlock" were explicitly based on the original characters and stories of Sherlock Holmes, even using the same names. The original stories did not have Jamie Moriarty or Joan Watson. The original stories did not have Watson's wife be a retired government assassin. The original stories did not have Holmes describe himself as a sociopath, or being a recovering addict who enjoyed casual sex and being an online troll. Yet, both shows were based on the original stories.

​@@keith6706 I grew up with it. I don't recall seeing them as anything beyond a group of friends actually. And I don't think original creators actually intended any romance in Mystery Inc. although the animated movies hint that Fred has a thing for Daphne. There are instances of Velma being explicitly into men though that predate the 2001 movie. Even if meant as a joke, she WAS interested in Johnny Bravo XD She was also into that writer guy in "Witch's Ghost" way more than just an idol writer of hers. Can she be lesbian in a new version? Of course she can. Claiming she was always supposed to be is far-fetched though, when the oldest evidence of people trying to make her queer is from 2001 when the character was around for 30 years already.

Velma was literally lambasted in the 60s for being a lesbian lmao

Those two DEFINITELY had more chemistry than Kendrick and Astin's character. That should've been OBVIOUS!

exactly