The Killer Twins; Aircraft Wrecks on Carnedd Dafydd and Llywelyn 

Quite a few USAAF and USAF aircraft met their end up there too.

One RAF pilot of an Anson saw the mountain just in time and pulled back on the controls, enough to crash land flat parallel on his belly. The crew survived injured, one crewman went down the mountain for rescuers, the mist came down obscuring the site to rescuers, one of the crew released his fluorescent yellow-orange sea-marker dye into a stream flowing downhill, and the rescuers followed it up and recovered them alive. Happily not all the crashes were totally fatal.

I was going to comment about some of the "blind canyons" that both military and light aircraft flew into in Colorado. An ultralight pilot in NoCO was telling me about his own issues trying to get across the Rockies and how choosing the wrong route almost cost him.

You maybe right! The crashes were so close together it's even possible stuff has got intermingled over the years.

I don’t know if this is practical bearing in mind fuel constraints. Also this happened when navigational aids such as VOR had not been invented. Even experienced pilots will unwisely ‘scratch around’ under clouds trying to find their way.

@@mtkoslowski it was a night navigation exercise. One of those killed was the Navigator who could of taken star shots and worked out their position if they could gave got above the clouds. Also onboard was the Radio Operator. Unfortunately the RO took a wrong radio bearing due to miscommunication. As for equipment the aircraft as it was from 239 Operational Conversion unit it would have been fitted with all the equipment in use on the operational squadrons including Gee-H which had been introduced back in 1943. The aircraft on this exercise would have sufficient fuel for their task plus a reserve, and considering the British weather in March they would gave gad suffcient to climb away from the hills and mountains of Wales and England. At the time of impact they had been airborne for about 7 hours. Now a Lincoln has a combat radius of about 2,800 miles at 15,000ft and 200mph with 14,000lb of bombs. The same fuel load would equate to a much greater range considering that no bombs would have been on board.

@@neiloflongbeck5705 Your assumptions are interesting given there was no flight data recorder on board. Concerning fuel you’re also making assumptions since we don’t know exactly how much fuel they took on before the flight. Celestial navigation? Let’s assume that they could get a fix of their position above the clouds (I know buggerall about celestial navigation) how, even if they knew where they were, would they have done a let down through the clouds? Sorry, but I think you’re making too many assumptions without foundation. Did you read the RAF accident report? You see, you use phrases like _”…would have had enough fuel…”_ instead of claiming ‘DID have enough fuel.’ I believe we have insufficient information other than speculation that the pilot exercised poor judgment in the circumstances despite his accomplishments and gallantry. Regrettably even the best sometimes make poor decisions.

@@mtkoslowski well let's start with navigation. The positions of numerous stars are given in Navigator's almanacs with a minimum of two stars you can get a rough positional fix, with 3 or more stars you can get a more accurate positional fix. Now RAF Valley is on the coast with the end longest runway being roughly north-south and the longest north-wedt-south-east in alignment. Once you get you position to fly to a point over the Irish Sea using dead reckoning and taking further positional fixes before turning g back towards the location of RAF Valley before descending to under the cloud base and fly back to the position of the base to land. The Lincoln had fuel burn rates between about 170 gallons per hour and 400 gallons per hour depending on the supercharger gear, the weight and altitude. These can be found online in the Pilot's Handling Notes. The Lincoln had a max fuel capacity of 3,580 gallons. Of course, as with every aircraft not al, of this fuel will be available for use in flight, so assuming g we can use 90% of this fuel in flight, then at the maximum fuel burn rate it equates to about 7 hours of running time for the engines. By the time RF511 crashed they had been airborne for about 7 hours, so at max fuel burn they would have been running on fumes. At the most economic fuel burn we're kicking at over 18 hours of engine running time.

@@mtkoslowski, as someone who has worked military aircraft in the past, there is typically a minimum fuel load that goes on-board after each mission. We called it the "ramp load" (the amount of fuel it would have just sitting on the parking ramp). So, if one knows the type of aircraft, one can at least make an educated guess at the minimum fuel the aircraft would have had aboard. Often for missions, though, it would have a greater amount of fuel depending upon the type of mission and duration involved.

@*UncleJoe* you can have some of our New Forest ponies, they have more road sense than the tourists.

@*UncleJoe* Thanks but no thanks, we have our own small populations of wild boar due to escapes from farms etc. Not a major problem at the moment but no need to encourage the tasty buggers.

The Brecons have semi-wild ponies too.

@*UncleJoe* The US has a little thing called room that we do not have in the UK.... Its the major issue with many reintroduction programmes some of the dreamy eyed idealists in the cities have dreamed up! Like reintroducing bears and wolves into the UK. They can never adequately answer the question of where the hell are you going to put such animals without them coming into conflict with humans? Population density of humans in the USA is 35 people per square kilometre, in the UK its 260....

Was the Bethesda hut still in use then?

As Ed said, lost on a navigation exercise in bad conditions, radio out so you drop down trying to spot a landmark to locate yourself. You may think you're over the Cheshire plain, nice, flat and low but you're actually over North Wales, not so nice flat and low...

They may be low lying, but the weather in Snowdonia is as changeable as it comes, and it can kill you just as easily as in many higher mountain ranges. One thing Snowdonia shares in common with the Brecon Beacons (a range of hills to the South) is mist and fog, which is regularly extremely thick and can close in with startling rapidity. You can be in perfect visibility with sun shining, then within five minutes you are in a thick fog and cannot see more than ten feet in front of you. Being from the Heads of the Valleys, so only about five minutes from the Brecon Beacons I can assure you that such fogs are not uncommon.....

I think Tyrone Power was one of those who flew that route

My father as a cadet heard voices in the mist above his head on Carnedd Daffydd, yet he was at the very top, they had been up there looking for the wreckage of an Anson and a civvy Cessna , he said it was dead silent in the mist and then they heard adult male voices above them. It spooked them quite a bit. I gave no doubt it has phenomena.

I was told that the Wellington had a magnesium alloy wing spar, like the later Varsity, which would burn with intense white light and high heat, with fuel added i am guessing most of it burned up. The R101 airship met a similar fate in France.

@@robshirewood5060 In that case there would only have been scortchmarks left for a short time. Thou the Wellington was known for it's rugged structure that structure will only have it's strength as long the structure is in a whole shape. Meeting rocks the structure would not have been able to hold and would fragment easily. There at more solid components like engine turrets and landing gear, If they are not in place on the crash site they must have been remowed, Weapons especially because no nation will leave arms out in the nature for all to collect.

@@briansteffmagnussen9078 Totally correct the MOD RAF RN did remove most leaving only items that were too big or problematic, there were two Anson engines at one time on the Carneddau. One of the links i posted shows the Wellington framework just as you stated. I googled AIR CRASHES WALES there are some good online sites

B-17, B-24, Ansons, Wellington's, Cessna, C-47, many other types. Sad history

Did one from when i was in Grenada on the wrecks there, it's more opportunity than anything 😁

@@EdNashsMilitaryMatters WELL I was going to suggest it sounded like this one might be his penultimate one the way Ed was gasping on the steeper climb. Sounded like a leaky steam engine. Nearly as knackered as I am. At least Grenada's at Sea Level Ed 🙄

Its easier than it looks if you actually take the time to you know, look at the Welsh alphabet. People assume we use the English Alphabet, we do not. Our alphabet is based on the English alphabet, but there are significant differences. Really the only two sounds that English speakers should have issue with are CH and LL, IF they take the time to actually look at our alphabet, rather than just assuming we use the English.....

No the Welsh people respect the crash sites, most of the wreckage was taken away by MOD RAF or RN for crash investigation.

@@robshirewood5060 ..bodys were recovered some of the wreckage left in place, attracting aicraft researchers and hikers. around 4:00 in the video its rather usual that metal parts get collected by locals and/or tourists from crash sites. no matter if respected by some locals, other individuals see a chance for benefit.

@@tomlobos2871 Agreed, but i know a lot of people in that area, and most are respectful

@@robshirewood5060 in some places here in germany, you can still find items like a barrel, cows drink of. still having a stamping on it saying something like "property of the wehrmacht" a different case but it shows that civilian life took benefits of whatever militarys left, especially if its not claimed and left for good. UK in general had an economical struggle after the war if i am right. i am not blaming anyone for doing so. and i doubt that i would do it different if i saw a chance of generating a profit wich might help a family in a hard period. today we would see things from a different perspective as we are lucky to live in a world of good chances. aircraft crash sites are usually cleaned up, its not a sunken ship where the peace of the dead would be disturbed. whats still missing here is a memorial stone. maybe an idea for crowdfunding as this is not really expensive and can become a landmark for future tourists, learning about the fate of the the crews died hiere.

Air bags on the hills?

Lol yep, hence apologies in advance. At least I tried ;)

@Ed Nash's Military Matters Not a criticism. Your pronunciation was OK and you had a go. Your videos are excellent. Welsh pronunciation is straightforward when you know the rules, but that's the challenge!

@@martinhughes2549 Long live, Y draig goch, the red dragon

Yeah, they will read this and thank you for it. #voidCliche

Love the whole region. Would happily live there.

@@EdNashsMilitaryMatters I’ve done a lot of potholing and stuff like this as a kid most of the mine are now closed to well some but yeah what a great place 👍

You have to remember, the ponies need something to scratch themselves on between their annual de-fleaing. Flippancy aside, I think the debris is a handy reminder of the historical dangers of aviation, and that the UK may have a fairly friendly climate, but it will kill you given the chance.

Civilians can fly there, i have also seen para-gliders, but mostly military I believe.

I would like to do more PRC aircraft, but the one I did got demonitized and I have no idea why. So I am very dubious about doing more.

@@EdNashsMilitaryMatters Ah yes the classic you tube, "you did something wrong but we will not tell you what"

@@kittehgo Or as we call it, FUtube...

No an RAF Chinook with Intelligence and Police Anti Terrorism experts from Northern Ireland crashed into a hill in western Scotland at a route roughly 45 degrees from Aldergrove, bloody insane idea putting all of them on one aircraft, sometimes "intelligence" is the last thing involved. Sad loss and terrible tragedy, they blamed the Pilot and his father fought for years to clear his name. He was former RAF himself.

@@robshirewood5060 That was the one I was thinking of. I knew it was full of important CT folks just not the specifics 👍

Glad you liked the book! And dont feel bad about nit going, I'm a bit of an idiot ;) As for burma, no book in that about my experiences, all very dull all I did was reach people how to fill in the human rights abuse forms.

Absolutely. If I hadnt finished when I did I would have turned back anyway because the weather was on the turn.

You get salmon spawning in the Brecon Beacons which is the national park further south.

@@richardsawyer5428 thanks

B-36 was notorious for engines catching fire due to their being reversed and overheating. Do you mean the one which lost the A-bomb, most of the15 crew parachuted, most lived some drowned?

@@robshirewood5060 Thank you.Yes I suppose so.

@@sealove79able There is a good report on it on a site dedicated to B-36 losses

@@robshirewood5060 Thank you.

There are some sites in the Cumbrian (Lake District and surrounding) Fells too *Definitely* they should be allowed to stand as tribute.