Thanks to everyone for the comments love the response, please check out my newest video ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-c_1OHSDapFQ.html a documentary on the fan made Romulan Kerchan Class Battleship.
There's two different variants of Klingon birds-of-prey play classic Burrell which is 110 meters long and they coverlet which I think is about 300 M long
The main thing the Klingon seated help with was there atmosphere Kronos their home planet at this time the Federation had Advanced atmosphere control bread
Venom Geek Media 98 - it’s been already established in canon and on screen, there are two main sizes , the smaller B-rel class about 110 meters and the K- vort Class larger version , that KOLOTH uses. And the KDF has Fighter class and scout class starships, but they are smaller than the Klingon warbirds.
And called K-vort class battle cruisers in yesterday's enterprise. K-vort class being a battle cruiser would explain the major size difference vs. Other class of brid of prey type ships that are scout ships for the most part, or support fighters like seen in the Dominion war
The Klingons have 3 ships of this design, but different in size and crew compliment. The K-22(Bird of Prey) B'rel Class V Scout is 88m long, 130m wide, 16m high, crew--12-14 The L42(Great Bird) Z'gavasta Class IX-X Frigate is 164m long, 242m wide, 31m high, crew--220-240 The D32(Strong Bird) Z'gavva Class VII Cruiser is 110m long, 161m wide, 21m high, crew--142 Information courtesy of my Star Trek role playing game.
Season 2 of TNG kept the Bird of Prey size correct, small with a small crew. When they started using the same model as large cruisers, it really got on my nerves. I think the Bird of Prey is a great design for a small scout/attack ship, but it looks ridiculous as a giant cruiser as big as a Galaxy Class or even matching the Klingon Attack Cruiser. Yes, it was just the studio being cheap by reusing old models, but still. If they need larger ships for some scenes, why not pull out the K'tinga model from The Motion Picture. They really overused the Klingon Bird of Prey as time went on, making it less cool.
yeah im with you on that, when they make it larger you start asking questions like, 'are there any decks in the wings'. its also strange that in ds9 the Kvort completely disappears, though thankfully they gave the Ktinga one last Hurrah.
The B’rel-class and K’vort-class are two different “Birds of Prey” STYLE ships. They are of similar design, but serve COMPLETELY DIFFERENT and DISTINCT roles within the KDF. All the on-screen size comparisons are simply due to the technology of the time; each ship needed detail, so they had to be large enough to shoot adequately. Go by the design specifications from Memory Alpha for a more accurate assumption. In my opinion, any time we see a K’Vort-class cruiser (TNG,) they are dealing overwhelming firepower against the ships they are engaging; Galaxy, Vor’cha included. In DS9, we see the B’rel-class or Scout-class Birds of Prey.
Correction, in "Yesterday's Enterprise," they are not B'rel Class Bird of Preys but Kavort Class Battlecruisers which look exactly like B'rel Class but up-scaled double the size.
Alexin Cobra , unbelievably upscaled...so large yet the surface detailing remains exactly the same. For me, the Bird of Prey will never work as a believable large scale ship. Its design goes against it being so large. I wish the show would have used the K'tinga model from The Motion Picture instead, as that would be far more believable when larger ships are required.
Jamie Braswell Yes, it was lazy on the part of production not to come up with new models to be battlecruisers. I don't agree with you on using K'tinga models to fight the Galaxy Class Enterprise D. They are also small and slightly smaller than the Constitution Class ships, not much different than Bird of Prey in size. Those ships would not be enough to take on an alternate reality battleship Enterprise. You would have to upscale them too, which would be the same problem with the Bird of Prey. Why didn't they use 3 Vorcha Class Attack Cruisers? They would have at least been the top current Klingon ships in TNG era.
Alexin Cobra , I only meant that if they were going to reuse an old model, then us the one from The Motion Picture. That Klingon Ship would be more believable as an upscaled larger ship. In any case, yes, what they should have done was build a new model altogether.
I’d argue that the size of the BoP in the TOS movies wasn’t consistent, specifically regarding the HMS Bounty in ST:IV. It goes from being tiny on Vulcan when people are walking around it, to big enough to hold two adult humpback whales and water and harass a whaling ship. Then it’s small again after it crashes into San Francisco Bay. It was also seemingly big enough to have two bridges and a huge cargo bay in the back.
You nailed it, mate. A fellow named Suricata analyzed the scene from The Defector and proved that the largest Birds are about 350m long, which is fairly consistent with other TNG Birds.
I agree this works but it's more like how the Soviets kept upgrading the T-72 till it becomes the T-90. The Russians much like the Klingon economy had collapsed so they couldn't make anything New.
It was because it looked good. The BoP even today is "the Klingon ship". I don't say this offhand I grew up with the K'Tinga from the movies, but studied and understood the D7 was the Mainstays of the empire. The Nehg'Var was the cool new ship. The Vor'cha was simply the redheaded stepchild because the Romulan D'Deridex Warbird was so amazing.
Mirror universe/alternate reality, since the Klingons never made peace with the Federation, they would need sheer numbers to counter the Federation's advantages- scale up an existing design to a light(?) cruiser for mass production in order to outnumber the enemy and you have the K'vort class in Yesterday's Enterprise. They have more than one shipyard across the Empire after all, and rather than building new more resource-intensive designs they up-gunned the D-7/K'tingas and built cruiser-sized aBirds of Prey just to make up the numbers. More hulls in a full-scale war of attrition makes sense.
As some have mentioned, yes, TNG was trying to stay under budget so they used a lot of previously used models and props especially in the earlier seasons when they were still establishing themselves as a decent show. As a result... We had they using the Old K'Tinga Class Battle Cruiser, as well as, and here is where your size controversy comes into play, they used the Old Bird of Prey models from the original series movies. They made them bigger in some episodes to be more formidable and explained it by saying they we battle cruisers. As a matter is fact the 3 ships that attacked the Enterprise D in the RING Episode "Yesterday's Enterprise" we're even cited as being "K'Vort Class Battle Cruisers". This is in contrast to the smaller B'Rel Class Bird of Prey. Assure from it's size, they visually indistinguishable from eachother. The small B'Rel Class Bird of Prey have a crew of "about a dozen officers and men" as established by Sulu in "Search for Spock" and the larger K'Vort Class Battle Cruiser would presumably have a larger crew as well. Anyways that's part of your controversy. So there's my little geek rant.
In my head canon, I tend to look at the purposes of the BOPs like this (Dominion War): B'rel: small crew, fast attack vessel, comparable to the Jem'hadar fighter D-12: medium cruiser, during the Dominion War, refitted with modern components to fill a medium cruiser role next to K't'ingas and Vor'chas K'vort: heavy defense cruiser, specifically purposed for protecting the Klingon home system and vital Klingon installations/starbases
Its so funny, I recognized the size variants but it never really bothered me because I figured they took a great model like the D-7 and K'tinga and just replicated and moved forward. Keep in mind that during the K'Vort calss period they were using the K'tingas...
The quick and easy explanation is that they used the same pattern for multiple ships of various sizes. They only ever mention b'rel and k'vort by name though.
if you look at the article which i linked to and the picture at 3:00 that is the evidence for a 600m one, and as i said in the video i don't find the idea very plausible as i said in the video there is overwhelming evidence for a brel and kvort classes.
Richard Lahan - no too hard really, especially if you stage the parts in orbit before you begin your build, they could even be transported by starfleet materiels command by BULK warp ships or staged and parked in orbit around the moon and transported by space TUGS.
The K'Vort is a D12 battlecruiser and much bigger than a B'rel. This implies that there are multiple versions of these ships and it's likely that there are modular parts or bits that can be scaled up as needed.
Like the majority of fans, I've always regarded the D22 K'vort light cruiser to be a budget, scaled up version of the D12 B'rel scout / gunboat / escort, churned out by the Drel shipyards, to pack the Klingon navy. When compared to the D7 or K'tinga, the K'vort is under gunned, but may have good EW capabilities, to compensate.
I've always had a problem with the idea of Bird of Prey at different sizes because the idea just doesn't work. You can't a destoryher and upscale it with no external changes and make it into a battleship. It sounds good at first, you're taking en existing hull design, just making it bigger, until you realize that you have to completely redo the interior layout and you have to make sure that you've scaled it up properly s otahat you don't have to have oiddly sized decks because you didn't scale it up by the correct amount. Then you have to figure that what works at one size, might not work at another larger size. You're also limiting yourself by trying to make a larger ship using the exact hull form of another, smaller ship. CErtain things might not fit or work right because you're tying to make it fit or work in a shape that might not accommodate it. I won't argue that there's no real world precedence for something like what was supposed to have been done with the BoP, but they were never unmodified. The first SSBN was made using an attack sub, but they made it longer when they added the missile launch tubes. The US Ticondergoa class cuirse was built on a Spruance class destroyer hull, but they didn't simply upscale it, there were a lot of changes made to the base Spraunce hull when they made the Tico.
SpelChekt I would say some BOP’s were exaggerated in size for aesthetics (visibility) sake. I refuse to think it’s anywhere near as big as a Romulan D’deridex.
I have always thought the Bird of Prey was like DD or CL types. Not an individual class but a type and like any type as the capital ship size grows so do the DD size. The iconic style set by the original was kept, think of the physiological effects of seeing a Bird of Prey decloaking and how much it must get played in media. The raids on lightly protected targets and fear of them showing up would be a powerful tool.
The Bird of Prey was a highly modular and scalable design. The vessel used by Christopher Lloyd in the Search for Spock as well as being commandeered and later used by Kirk and crew in Star Trek 4 the Voyage Home was most likely a scout level vessel or B'rel class at the most. Very small ship's complement in terms of crew size. If you would call in Star Trek 3 he says they outgun me four to one. Although there's very few shots of it comparative in action decloaked, the ship used in Star Trek 6 is most likely at least on par tactically with the Enterprise considering the Run for the money that she gives even without factoring in the ability to fire while cloaked, it takes both the Enterprise and the Excelsior to destroy her and stop Christopher Plummer from quoting Shakespeare. Very likely that one is a K'vort-class, much the same likely as the vessels appearing throughout TNG from The Defector to Reunion to Yesterday's Enterprise. The only instance that does tend to seem a bit opaque is when Riker goes on the officer Exchange program Sabor a Klingon vessel nothing that really stands out and the ship appears kind of small by comparison as well, but the only other time we see a small bird of prey used is when much of the senior officers are turned into kids, and a ship is commandeered by a bird of prey crewed by Ferengi and when Lusa and B'etor use Geordi's visor to fire through the shields in Generations. Fairly sure that General Martok's Rotarran is a K'vort-class, as well as the vessel commandeered by Gul Dukat, mainly based on the scale of the ship compared to the station. But throughout the series of ships they all appear to have similar capabilities in terms of atmospheric Landing. Plus if you look in the various scenes with large fleets during the Dominion War you see small birds of prey and large birds of prey, some of them that are barely bigger than a Runabout, and some of them that are almost as big as a Ambassador class starship.... So suffice to say it is clear that the bird of prey is a modular and scalable design.
The standard issue Bird O Prey has no aft weapons. If there is an aft disruptor it is the slightly larger K'Vort. That is almost the only way to tell them apart without them being side by side.
In 'The Defector' they were supposed to be the new battle crusher but the model wasn't ready so you got upsides BoPs however why this wasn't addressed in the remaster I don't know.
I remember the size discrepancy between the original movies and TNG and DS9 being my adolescent self's first realization that these shows got things wrong sometimes. Simply scaling the size of a BoP up from a Constitution to a Galaxy and down to Defiant didn't make sense. I saw the guns, the wings, the bridge all of it was exactly the same shape just orders of magnitude bigger or smaller...which just made no sense from a realistic, engineering perspective.
I personally just accept that all birds are standard at 110 meters. With exception of "Yesterday's Enterprise", as that was a different timeline. Kavorts can live there. All others inconsistencies are effects problems. Like the Defiant's size issues...
It's a stupid controversy. The Klingons found an efficient, easy to scale ship design (original BOP) and they used it as a standard template for their needs using industrial replication to up scale and up gun the design for a general purpose warship. The D series was their focused Line ship. When that series was uneconomic to continue the BOP took over on those grounds. The fact the Klingons had to have a design revolution to come up with a new series of cruiser and battle ship is not a mark against the BOP series of designs and dirivatives
In my opinion, everybody is looking at that scene from 'The Defector" the wrong way. The BOP's in that scene in my opinion aren't scaled too large. It's the Warbirds that are scaled WAY too small. They don't look to be much wider than a Galaxy class in that scene. They probably had to alter the scales of the ships in order to fit all of those ships onto a TV screen. . I wouldn't take those scales as canon at all. Also, the "K'vort class" is seen many times in TNG. The seem to be the larger ones that fly with the wings swept up. I believe that this ship was the actual replacement for the older K'Tinga class as the Klingon's main battle cruiser. That would explain the size which I accept as being around 300m to 350m in length. The Klingon's simply decided to build a battle cruiser based on a tried and tested design equipped with their heaviest modern weapons. A large BOP styled battle cruiser with a lot more room and decks with a larger torpedo launcher. We've even seen them firing disruptors from the rear on screen. Probably enough room for a rear torpedo launcher as well. Three of them in a group are powerful enough to take on almost anything. Something they learned from their D7 days i imagine.
It is not a "budget battlecruiser", it is tiny. Smaller than a destroyer but larger than a PT boat. There isn't actually any "controversy" over this. It is a tiny 10-15 man ship which can be plainly seen when it is landed on both Vulcan and Earth in STIV. It would take 4-6 of them to challenge a "battlecruiser".
Yesterdays Enterprise was a special case & those K'Vort's can't be taken as equivalent to a normal timeline K'Vort.Just as the Enterprise D was especially resilient & well armed, I'm betting the alternate timeline K'Vort's were also beefed up to heavy cruiser status, which makes more sense given the results of the battle.One destroyed the other 2 heavily damaged, but still able to destroy the Enterprise?Perhaps.Makes sense to me that 3 Klingon heavy cruisers, like that would be a match for the Enterprise D battleship, & could go either way, based on tactics employed & successful hits scored.
🖖😎👍Very cool and very nicely well done and very well informatively explained and executed in every way and detail possibly provided indeed, But the problem I had with the BOP is that even as the larger it got the disrupter Canons all looked the same and in the same scale look as the smaller ones which truly doesn't make any sense, you would think as it got larger that the disrupter Canons would of changed in look as well!,🤔.
Also alot of fams dont realise it does not matter that federation ships can fire 360 degrees and klingon ships cant because klingon ships just turn on the spot or turn while maintaining dorection so they always have their weapons pointed at the target. The klingon ships are not as high tech as fed ships but they are just e gines weapoms and armor so they are competitive in the various wars in the stories
Klingon bird of prey, shown is the B'rel design. there are many designs and configurations and scaling options for this ultra efficient and effective design , although it may not necessarily carry the most efficient engines or types of components ease of material working is high. This makes for a hot ship super spaceframe that can be retrofitted for a plethora of design enhancements or improvements and configuration customization arrangements. the engines can be updated continually etc. the ship's versatility in combat and situational configuration makes it a formidable craft for any vessel even out classing it. this ship has steep turning radii out performing enterprise as you see how tightly it performed the 360* turn and returned fire quickly even if the ship had raised its shields. it at any size from structural shape and agility is hard to hit alone. locked phasers intermittently miss forward bridge boom designs making even sluggish movements. also a benefit the engines are away from the bridge promoting health and survivability. numerous redundant systems are throughout the architecture of the design and cost of production is low. therefore a quantity for a quick time of attack is less limited over duration than that of the federation's own capabilities. iam the creator iam. there is too much to list here, get yours today. the type plasma energy used in weaponry also differs and varies more than more stable energy weapons this adds a mixed bag, potency effect ranging from high to higher.
DYNA KLO - the B-rel and K- vort Class starships were of practical size, going larger was unnecessary and it would be harder to make a single warp sustainer engine in a larger size, bigger than 300 meters and you’ll will need Twin warp nacelles, like on the KDF Battle Cruisers.
3 models.. The B-rell scout such as in the movies.. the K-Vort from Yesterdays Enterprise and the Defector.. and the possibly confused or not ever seen frigate class version (Generations movie size used by the Lursa and B-etor?) which is mid sized between the Scout and K-Vort..
yeah sounds right. the Kvort was basically the klingons seeing the ambassador class at over 500m and going 'oh Sh#t' because they were still relying on the ktinga.
There's no way in hell that the B'rel-class Bird-of-Prey was designed to go up against a Constitution-refit, that's just absurd. In Star Trek III, Lord Kruge said (at around 1:05:50) "Why haven't they finished us? They outgun me ten to one!". The Klingons aren't stupid and would NEVER allow one of their mainline warships to be outgunned ten to one by a Federation Heavy Cruiser. The B'rel was more of a glorified assault fighter. The B'rel was designed to be a very effective raider, skirmisher and saboteur. It was NEVER designed to be a ship-of-the-line like the K'Tinga, Vor'Cha and Negh'Var. According to canon (and based on TNG's budget), the Klingons made a larger version that was more of a straightforward warship (but still outclassed in firepower by the other three classes) called the K'Vort but it's use was rather limited.
Yes the Klingons got the Romulan S-11 scout in a technology exchange,and they really loved the design and function of the ship. And true to Klingon mind set, If you love something and want to make it better you simply make it bigger,stronger,faster and add more firepower. Why research a new ship and spend the money when you have something tried and true? Just make it better and you can have something that you like in about a quarter of the time it takes to design something new.
The Kovort class in Yesterday's Enterprise may well have been an alternate version. It would fit the characterization of the Klingons that in a prolonged war with the Federation, Klingon military technology would flourish and would naturally tend to be ahead of Klingons in the prime timeline who had been at peace for decades.
true though given that in that timeline the destruction of praxis already happened i would doubt the klingons would win the war as depicted. Romulan aid?
@@venomgeekmedia9886 I think maybe enough time had passed for them to have recovered a bit though right? Wasn't the Ambassador an early 24th century design, so Narrendra III isn't that like 20 or so years after Praxis?
@@Vontux true in my opinion the kvort did exist in prime timeline as a stopgap between the ktinga and vorcha, so it depends on when the vorcha appears. certainly by ds9 they replaced the kvort
They just used it again, and gave it different classes, originally it was supposed to be a Romulan ship, but the studio favoured the Klingons, s o it unfortunately remains a Klingon ship.
One thing that I have learned about movie production is a little thing called " Forced Perspective " . Some of your photos where the two BOP's are behind the larger K'Vort class Cruiser ( 4:05 ) the ship that's in the middle facing the Enterprise , are actually further back in a standard Klingon combat ready position . So in perspective the BOP's may Not be larger but closer to the camera . This is the third or fourth time that I've come across these " Size " comparison of ships and it's the same problem the host of the video omits forced perspective in trying to estimate the size of ships and anything along these lines Other than that you have a very informative video . Qapla '
It's not really forced perspective as much as just perspective. Forced perspective is when you use perspective to tricks to make things look larger to smaller than they really are/ A classic example of this the classic tourist photo of people "holding up" the leaning Tower of Pisa. By using forced perspective it make the person in the photo look larger than they really are in relation to the tower and look like they're actually holding the tower up. Another example of this is Main Street at Disneyhland, all of the buildings on Main Street get graudlaly smaller in scale as you get closer to the castle, this makes the street seem somewhat longer than it really is and, most importantly, make the castle seem larger than it really is.
@@Riceball01 Not Necessarily smaller But Further Away . I studied Special Effects when I was younger and wanted to get a job with the Spielberg Studios as a model builder . But I soon found out that any previous model builds the studio could claim for themselves . Since I built several Models for a Military Museum and a few private clients , I didn't feel right about that .
RE: "Star Trek: Discovery" (or STD for short...ooomf!)...well, the ships and costumes and most make-up (Spock exception) were designed under an alternate TradeMark license. (or "licence"). JJ's "Kelvin" different timeline mumbo-jumbo went WAY different, obviously...more than they were required to under the original Paramount Copyrights. There is a video somewhere that explains all of this 21st century legalese clearly.
4:30 no, the real world reason there are different sizes, is that each Klingon house had their own budget and tactics. Some required a small, mobile variant, others up scaled the design to fulfill a role of protecting against greater threats. Other houses had a mix. Keep it real 😃
My take on the Klingon bird of prey was that it was a tried and true design, similar to the Viking longboat.a twelve man raider and a 60 man longboat are the same. Just scaled up.
your wrong in startrek they had scout class and a destroyer class. the destroyer class did not lower its wings. they look similar from a distance but are very different ships.
110m was the smaller scout ships, and the 350 was the larger, either the k'vort class or b'rel class I don't remember. there was no 700 meter version that's larger then the galaxy class starship.
You've come a long way in your narrating :) These old videos were good, very good; still, you punctuated every statement here with lots of uhhhs and umms. Kudos!
3.25: this isn't a camera angle trick, they have scaled it up massively. The BoP on the left is BEHIND the Romulan ship which we know is about twice the size of a Galaxy Class, therefore the BoP is HUGE.
i'm still uncertain on this particular shot. we only see the wingspan of the BOP, which is quite large. it definitely isn't a Bre'l but that just means it could be anywhere between 200-600m?
the shoulder of the BoP is clearly behind the dorsal crest of the Romulan which Canon states is 772m across the beam and over 1,000m long (Star Trek Fact Files, First edition). Its cavity is large enough to completely envelop the Enterprise-D. That puts the BoP's wingspan up there at least 600m (I missed that issue).
having a look around, some sources say that the ships in The Defector were Vor'cha class but they're not. Vor'cha have split noses and fixed wing pylons. These were CLEARLY upscaled B'rel/K'Vort cruisers (which used the same studio models!).
yeah the Vorcha actually rarely shows up in TNG, it being notionally still quite new. my theory is that the Kvort existed as a stopgap between the Ktinga/d7 and the Vorcha, certainly we never see any Kvort's during DS9 suggesting that they had all been retired.
There is no size scale issues, they are different ships, there is the b'rel as seen in most Original Series examples, then the refit in next gen. Then you have the K'vort and it's refit, the latter two being larger cruisers to the former which are more light interceptors, the key differences between the two, asides from firepower is that b'rels wings move up and down depending on what they are doing, being straight in normal flight, up for landing and underslung for combat. The K'vorts don't do this.
The problem with claiming the BOP is a "Romulan Designed Ship" is the fact that it looks nothing like a Romulan Ship and is much closer in design and aesthetics to the Klingon D7 .. In fact, the Romulan ships from TOS are a completely different design .. The Romulan ship in TOS: Balance of Terror and TOS: The Deadly Years, with its rounded hull and engine pods, looks suspiciously like a design stolen from the Federation - and in fact the dialogue in the episode mentions that it's a stolen Federation Design .. The Hull and Engine Pods are Clearly of Federation Origin, but with a Romulan Warbird painted on the Hull .. TOS: "The Enterprise Incident" clearly calls the Romulan D7 ships a "Klingon design" and The "Romulan D7's" in TOS are identical to the Klingon D7s - again pointing to either a stolen design or ships purchased from the Klingons for use by the Romulans .. Since the Romulan ship used in Balance of Terror is called a 'Bird Of Prey' and the Klingon ship in ST3 is also called a 'Bird of Prey' this is clearly not a designation from either Empire - therefore "Bird Of Prey" is a Federation Designation similar to what we Americans call "Warbirds" - which can be ANY airplane from WW2 regardless of design - ALL Bombers and Fighters are called "Warbrids" no matter who designed them -- the more logical conclusion, therefore, is that the BOP is, in fact, a Klingon designed ship - a follow on and improvement to the D7 - that was sold to the Romulans - but then the screenplay was changed and the Romulans were replaced by the Klingons, who designed and built the BOP .. Klingons had the design and combat expertise .. probably had the manufacturing facilities .. the Romulans had the money, which the Klingon Empire desperately needed .. no different than China buying Russian designed aircraft .. The BOP first seen in ST3 is more likely a Klingon design following in the footsteps of the D7 - sold to the Romulans, but also used by the Klingons ..
yeah i agree, the aesthetic of the BOP very klingon, looking quite rugged, and having a shape similar to the D7. i also agree that BOP is itself a federation term, or in the very least a general term that describes a small hit and run craft, normally equipped with a cloaking device. in the same way i think Stormbird and Warbird relate to other kinds of ship, they shouldn't be used interchangeably. they relate to a specific thing.
I was just watching The Search for Spock and paused it when they landed on planet Vulcan. It showed everyone walking out of the ramp and imo the scale looked pretty big (big enough to have a cargo bay that holds two small whales). Other times in episode 4 it looked a bit smaller.
Another interesting thing is the model that they used for the BOP broke. When the model was made it could move it's wings up and down but it broke so they had to film with the wings in a fixed position.
Yesterday's emterprise names them as k vort. We are not looking at bird of prey every time its just the shape is the same. In ds9 they dont use the k vort class size only bird of oreys and vorchas. They show the neg var in other episodes but never against the dominion
I think the design is due for a revamp if they ever decide to bring it back. It's actually quite a clunky looking ship in some respects. The Klingons may be coarse but it shouldn't be beyond them to design a more streamline attack ship but still maintaining the winged effect of the original, which does have a look of malevolence about it.
Having two sizes of identical Birds of Prey is absurd. The Klingons would have to retool their production either way, so why would they be constrained to having the larger version look exactly like the smaller version on the exterior?
The bird of prey b rell class has a crew of about 12 and is in the old films and next gen but there are a few designs of klingon ships that look the same but are bigger. There is no size issue. If you watch yesterdays enterprise episode when the three klingon ships attack the enterprise they look like b rell class bird of prey but they are k vort class cruisers with alot more crew and are alot bigger than birds of prey.
If they hadn't scrapped them I'd offer to buy 10 of a 200 meter length. Keeping the disruptor cannons but no advanced torpedo launchers. Obviously I'd keep the exterior much the same while doing complete systems refit to make sure they were up to date and had cutting edge systems and armor. Dramatically enhancing science and sensors and experiment with dual warp cores. I may not be able to buy cloaking devices, but I'm sure the space for the system would be full of heavily shielded high output power taps. Those could be used until I could get my own team to figure out a cloak or a better system. A few may even be converted for hospital ships and use manoeuvring and armor enhancements, standard cannon and single front and rear rapid fire torpedo systems. Max out with hybrid shields and higher sublight as well as warp speeds. This would be a good way of starting a home system solar system defense force. Buying or building the larger ships for the bigger problems one would find lurking eventually.
definitely if you check out my 'Wings of Kah'less' episode i suggest that the klingons would be selling these ships basically to anyone who wants them. much like the MIG-21 which you can still see operated throughout the world today or the T-34 which the soviets again exported globally.
have you checked FASA Klingon ship recognition book there have a k22 bird of pray scout length 88m width 130m height 16m crew 16 a d32 cruiser length 110m width 161m Height 21m crew 148 and a L42 frigate length 164m width 242m height 31m crew 240
what people forget about klingons is they either get thier ships from slave labor stealing them or what they build and in the early years they did build many styles almost all thier ship kinda looked like birds of prey.
there was a 20 man scout bird of prey ,a 80 man corvette style and a 150 man frigate style bird of prey due to the fact that klingons that build ships are not warrior so there are not many so they tended to use the same style for all thier ship except the ones built by conquered races.
Come on guys how do you not know this if you’re a fan of the bird of prey then you should know there are 3 sizes & classes A , B , C , & they all look the same they just get bigger Yes they use the same prop model but Star Trek has always tried to save money 💰
I still remember those three K'Vort class decloaking while surrounding the two D'Deridex warbirds that were ganking on the Enterprise. GOD, such a glorious moment! ^_^
I detest the Klingon use of these designs and the term Bird of Prey. It's clearly Romilan and would have been if not that Nimoy pushed to use Klingons rather than. Romulans
I think the dark Star Trek six bird of prey was a special model and it was 200 m 210 m it needed the additional size for the more advanced cloaking device or the whole advance torpedoes or the magnetic accelerator or whatever but it needed to be just a little bit bigger about 100 m bigger
The strength of the K'Vort class? Remember, the Klingons were not in a war economy footing when the Enterprise-C messed up the timeline. It took 20 years for them to finally beat the Federation. In DS9, the conflict vs the Klingons before the Dominion war, had the Klingons pushing back the Federation, when they had progressed farther technologically and economically due to the Alliance with the Federation. The 'Yesterdays Enterprise' K'Vort-class benefited from 20 years of war tech and experience. AND if you look at all the times a Galaxy-class has ever fought a Klingon ship, it suffers a catastrophic coolant leak in the engine core that leads to a core breach. I believe that's a design flaw in the Galaxy-classes vs Klingon disruptors. And there were 3 of them during that episode and 2 were moderately damaged with one destroyed.
If you think about it, the only winners in a Federation-Klingon war in that time before the Borg or the Dominion, are the Cardassians and the Romulans. Until the Borg or Dominion show up in which case, those factions will fight it out. Ironically, without the Federation, the Cardassians or Romulans are doomed. Possibly even the Klingons.
The Klingon Bird of Prey was first seen in Star Trek the original series and looked like the Klingon ship in your green box that is in the middle. Note. At one point in time the Romulans also had the same ship design in the original series. If you do not believe me then check it out for yourself.
as far as i am aware we only saw the klingon d7 during the original series era, the klingon bop wasn't until star trek 3. however we do see an earlier version in Enterprise, so its probable that there was some kind of BOP around at that time. but they only got cloaking devices after the episode 'the enterprise incident'.
Bit late here but I draw your attention to two TOS episodes. "Friday's Child" a Klingon agent states he has scout ship in orbit. Enterprise however didn't see it until it appeared at maximum range. "Errand of Mercy" a Klingon ship gets in firing range without being detected. Both would be explained by cloaking technology. I can't conclude that the writers were stating that Klingons had cloaks before ST3, but these observations strongly suggest the legitimacy of it.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 No way of knowing but it's a compelling thought. Did the writers intend those ships to be stealthy "Bird of Preyesque"? Compelling that is, to a nerd with time in his hands.
I've always thought that the TNG size inconsistency is because they used the same models from the movies, which are scaled to the old Enterprise. I'd bet that the prop for the A and D are about the same size. To scale up the exterior doesn't make sense. You'd still have to redesign the interior, the engines, etc. and some of those external parts wouldn't have to be so large. They also already had D7 battle cruisers, so why scale up a scout ship instead of just using the battleship design? Also, just going to point out that Search for Spock makes it very clear that the BoP has a very small crew and is no match for a fully crewed/operational Constitution
Those Birds of Prey behind the Romulan battleship should be spec's. I figure they dicked up the scale for dramatic effect not wanting to spend any $$$ on more ships or different ships. They done fukt it up there.
I consider the 110 m Bird of Prey as my Headcanon size. Everything else i choose to consider forced perspective. Apparently there is lot of accidental forced perspective in Star Trek.
Trekyards sucks they have in the past reviewed models and not credited the authors until us fans bitch about it and now they only review shit discovery thinking it's great!
Guns have existed in calibers ranging from over 1 meter all the way down to 2mm or even less. An internal combustion engine can be a toy or the size of a house. Size may not matter but scale certainly does.
DS9 made the bird of prey look like a fighter craft Edit: if you look at Star Trek Online, the Klingon bird of prey looks acutely scaled. It’s not a tiny craft, but it’s not a giant either
Only a blind man would think that the Klingon from Star Trek discovery and the Klingons from the rest of Star Trek TNG deep space nine voyager are from the same universe of the same species only a blind man would think that same goes for the ships except they finally made the D7 look halfway decent and the original Connie looked pretty good and I like the uniforms in discovery where everything else is 🗑. Garbage
the largew one is the k'vort class battlecruiser (lore wise the BOP) was a good design and they found they could enlarge it and it would make a good battle cruiser. real story CBS are tight fisted and wouldnt shell out more money for new models.
According to a FASA reference, there is suggested multiple classes that can fill the gap, but - yes questionable - fun nonetheless. Scout: www.ststcsolda.space/klingons/K-22/K-22.html Frigate: fasaststcs.com/index.php/thefleets/klingon-empire/l-42-bird-of-prey-class-ix-x-frigate/ Cruiser: www.ststcsolda.space/klingons/D-32/D-32.html
I think it's all just un-cannon scaling by the special effects/model/cgi guys. A crew of 12, with around 6 guys up in the head and another 6 back in the main hull, where the heck did they fit the whales? How was it so huge compared with a ~40-75m whaling vessel? When it's in the foreground, it should look bigger, and in the background it should be smaller....the TNG scaling was not to scale, it was just so bad. Why wasn't the Federation using cloaking devices? It worked on the Enterprise in TOS when they jerry-rigged one after stealing it from the Romulans. Star Trek lore and story archs and what is cannon & what is not has been diluted over time by multiple writers, fandom, and a not very solid base to begin with.
yeah it seems to me the ship is as big or as small as the plot requires it. the federation cannot use cloaking devices because of the treaty of algeron; about 2311 the federation began installing cloaks, the romulans didn't like it and a lot of people died.
Ah, the fact that models were hard to make back then, everything is recycled, and it is just easier to say its bigger or smaller to have a shot for the show than for it to make any actual sense. I don't think they cared so much back then. Now a days, it is much less forgivable to be so nonchalant.
I enjoy your videos. You arent preachy or lecturing in your reviews and you seem to be a REAL Trek lover and supporter. My question is how do you find the time and graphics?
so this video i'm pretty much spit-balling, its a discussion i've had numerous times in my own head so i didn't write a script , the editing is pretty basic, if you want to see time consuming you should watch my wings of Romulus documentaries. most of the pictures can be found here www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/bop-size.htm i personally love this site, it is the definitive source as trek goes.
DS nine general more pot shape is the best example of a brown class bird of prey but they do have cavort class birds of prey which are bigger I think the Cold War is about 400 m in the original braille is about 150 m and then the great bird is 700 m I only made a few of these great birds before the butcher class came out and is trying to make a new bigger washer the container was too old we can retrofit and the Catania
