During the podcast, Druckmann and Mazin say that Joel is going through dissociation during his rampage through the hospital. That's why he's so emotionless during the ordeal. He isn't killing people, he's just working his way through obstacles. They had a certain set of rules they were following when writing that scene. If anybody was armed in front of Joel (even if they had their back turned or were giving up their weapon), he killed them. Notice that he didn't even point his gun directly at the medical staff. Only when the doctor grabbed a scalpel did Joel shoot. None of this is to say that Joel didn't know what he was doing, he absolutely did. But because of his past trauma and experiences, he's able to emotionally disconnect and dispassionately slaughter dozens of people.
Mmm. Makes sense. He didn't even recognize how bad he was becoming then and there. Like he easily could have just injured the doctor, same as in the game, he had him out armed easily. But it was just matter of fact that the doctor and Marlene were in the way at this point.
@@CrazeeAdam they literally remade the first game because of an audio file that contradicts the second game and the doctor also not looking anything like abby at all
yeah when he shot the doctor he didn't even look directly at him his eyes is focusing on Ellie the entire time that's how dissociate he was during the whole thing
@@Bacon00024 Which audio contradicted the second game? Are you referring to the audio recorder about experimenting on infected people that people assumed was other immune people? That was never removed or altered.
Yeah, the mind can do that to protect itself from trauma, but it's also helpful as one is calmly, fearlessly focused on the task. His body took over when the fight impulse was activated and his bodies' motor sensory memory took over, which was defaulted to stop the threats. When trained in self defense, being deliberate is the key as if you take advantage of OODA (human reaction time to stimuli), one stands a better chance at surviving against an aggressor whose got the drop or surviving overwhelming odds by taking the initiative and overwhelming the threat(s) via ooda loop and a greater violence of action..
That is a great infected cosplay. Your cosplays are always so fun. This is one of the best live action adaptations of a game. I love Ashley Johnson explanation of the “ Okay” in the podcast.
Neil Druckman asked 100 parents if they agreed with what Joel did, 100 said yes. Non parents was a 50/50 split. Joel was calm and focused, he was on a mission. Ashley Johnson definitely looks like an older version of Bella Ramsey.
@@casualsuede just because an adult is not biologically related to their child doesn't mean they aren't a parent to their child. a kid who has been adopted by an adult, that kid is their child and that adult is their parent.
Joel noticed Ellie was in a dark place. That's why he told her his story. "Anyway, the reason I'm telling you this," he said. He suspects she's having suicidal ideations after her insistence on following through no matter what. What easier way to do it than through a noble sacrifice? This Joel wants to buy Ellie time to find a reason to live. At the end of the game when she tells him about Riley and losing their minds together all poetic she says, "I'm just waiting for my turn." Ellie still thinks she was supposed to die with Riley. And then Tess and Sam... Ellie was in no place to make that kind of decision on her own, even if she had been given it.
I agree with you that Ellie would likely do the same thing if the roles were reversed. The saddest part of the whole situation to me is that I really don't think Joel, or even Marlene could have made different choices given the exact circumstances that occurred. Joel had just shared all those moments with Ellie, then was knocked unconscious, wakes up and is suddenly forced to make a decision on saving Ellie's life. On the other hand, the Fireflies and Marlene were quite frankly surprised that Joel and Ellie made it, and jumped at the chance to do the surgery. Despite proclaiming that she knew Ellie would want this, her actions indicated she was scared Ellie would decline, which is likely why she didn't tell her. She had no idea how much Ellie and Joel had bonded, and probably thought that just by putting her foot down and escorting Joel out the issue would be resolved. But she basically forced Joel's hand at this point. Let's also not forget, that Ellie was still 14 (or maybe almost 15) and had just gone through a severe trauma. She was in no state of mind to be asked to make such a huge decision either, so putting the decision in her hands isn't exactly the best choice either.
I said the same thing, There's no way a young person her age with a trauma that fresh should make that kind of decision, And Marlene definitely forced Joel"s hand, Treating him like dirt after he went through Hell to get her there.. At least let the man see her before the surgery.
Your last point would make sense in a normal world but this is an apocalypse world so people have to grow up fast I think the right choice would be to ask her what she wanted to do and accept her decision which would most likely be to do the surgery and save humanity which is the most noble thing to do you don’t know her state of mind so stop devaluing her experience so asking for her consent would be the best choice plus it likely would avoid all the aftermath that happened.
I agree. The Fireflies could have WAITED. Drawn some blood; run a few tests. TALK WITH Ellie and Joel. Explain things. Ellie was SAFE there. THey had time.
About the doctor I saw it as his death being decided the moment he said “I won’t let you take her” whereas the nurses/assistants didn’t show any sign of stopping Joel. When he executed Marlene it was because as he said “you’ll come for her” it’s the same reason the doctor was killed.
In this moment, I saw a Parallel to Joel here and the Cordyceps from Episode two and Tess. They both resort to violence when the 'victim' would seemingly violently resist, whereas those who do not and peacefully dealt with.
The doctor scene i felt it was more than just "this man is going to hurt Ellie" I think that Joel really felt "offended", (even in his state of almost complete dissociation,) by some stranger telling him "i wont let you take her" and the realization of being portrayed as an actual threat for her. Like, all his work, efforts and relationship growth with Ellie are being completely dismissed by a stranger that doesn't know what they've been through together. For the Fireflies, Joel is just a cold-blooded smuggler.
The little part about Avoidant people touching their toes to the issue and then moving back to a place where they're comfortable really resonated with me. I'm like that with some things. I just want to push on and get back to "normal" even if it isn't always the best option. That's something I'm working on.
11:44 In that shot right there. Do you know that the nurse closest to the camera, is Laura Bailey?? She actually voiced said nurse in the game & is of course best friends with Pike...I mean Ellie. No Ashley. Hopefully Laura will get to play a more substantial role in season 2. After all she was Abby too...
i have a theory, she will be part of abbys story like she will tell abby about what joel did, and maybe help her on her mission, earlier in the hospital you can see someone with a ponytail(like abbys) escape joels wrath
I'm in my 30's, and some relationships have been teaching me that I never developed some of the tools for fully understanding other people's emotions and responding properly (for whatever reason). I learn a lot by watching your videos, so thank you!
Like you said, it’s easy to sit back and go oh yes, sacrifice one to save the many. But to be honest, if it was my daughter that I had to sacrifice, I don’t think I could do it. I’d be trying every possible thing to find another way.
@@rickbruner5525 some parents can sacrifice their kid for the greater good, it depends on the person. some people think of the world/life/death differently.
@@rickbruner5525 No but I would sacrifice my parnter or my nephew if it meant the world had a chance at a cure and they also agree with me that 1 life is not worth risking the whole human race.
Have you guys not played the second game? Ellie absolutely does not agree with Joel's actions. When she finds out what he did, she refuses to speak to him for TWO YEARS. Even then, she only says "I don't think I can forgive you, but I want to try."
In the game, there are files u can find in the hospital that implys that the fireflies have met other immune people had no success. Which to me is important piece of information
In the game you can find the doctors recorded notes about numerous other immune people he had attempted the operation on before, so Joel has the additional incentive of putting down the doctor so he doesn't attempt it again on someone else.
See Georgia..your theory on Ellie would do the same thing in reverse that Joel did may be tested in the future but no spoilers , I'm so excited for them to adapt Part 2. What an emotional rollercoaster
Thank you for sharing this and I hope you feel better through them and that you have close people around you who you feel safe with. thank you for being here
@Georgia Dow Thank you for your great videos. I started following you after the show last of us and watched lots of your other videos. I enjoy how genuine and soft your voice is when you explain situations and emotions. Shows how much passion you have for your craft. Thanks again!
Oh my god! Georgia, you’ve become a beautiful mushroom! I hope I got that right. I’m sure you were going for the famous “infected by cordyceps” look. Fabulous. Your analysis of these eps and characters has been a great companion to the whole experience. It’s helped me to better understand it all, and that’s an awesome gift. Thank you!
I think you were spot on when you said this was Joel with his back against the wall. Marlene and the Fireflies went about it the totally wrong way. The most glaring thing is that they didn't get informed consent from Ellie, nor made sure she was in a fit enough state mentally to even GIVE consent after the trauma and severe survivor's guilt she s clearly struggling with. But even with Joel they go badly wrong. First off, they don't allow for Joel and Ellie to see each other, talk to each other, and say goodbye. Marlene straight up TELLS Joel "don't worry, she doesn't know because we didn't TELL her, so she won't have been scared etc.", and then expect her men to just march him off back to the highway and send him on his way. You don't tell a parent that you are about to KILL their CHILD without that child's knowledge or consent and not expect a reaction to end all reactions... like, Marlene KNEW what Joel was capable of, and she still cornered him and left him with no option but to lash out as ferociously as he possibly could. I get that Ellie WOULD have said yes to it, especially in her current mental state where she feels guilty she is the only one who has survived the infected after a bite and believes her live can only have value or meaning if she sacrifices herself to save everyone else, but yeah... I view it as the Fireflies not allowing for there to be the OPTION of her having a choice, not as Joel taking away her choice. They were not listening, they were not about to stop and reevaluate how they could go about it the right way, they were going to do it NOW at ANY cost, so... it was kill them or let them kill her, there WAS no "let us hear what Ellie wants and thinks" option he could have chosen instead. Not until afterwards when everyone were dead and there was no one left to do the surgery, which again leaves her with no way to make that choice and get a redo. I just wish the Fireflies had had more sense, Ellie was clearly traumatized and worried sick about Joel who had been hurt and knocked unconscious during their attack - at least give the man a chance to wake up and for the girl to see that he is okay before you do anything else! Take more time, do more tests, talk to Ellie and Joel about the results etc... get it right! Don't just knock the kid out the moment you get a chance and cut out her brain based on a MAYBE - she is the ONLY known immune person in the WORLD, before you KILL her and use up your ONE chance at a cure you better be DAMN sure that is your best and ONLY option. Like, you won't get a do-over, she is the ONLY chance you've got, so... if you kill her for nothing there are just a bunch of people who are NOT immune left, when that immunity might have been able to be passed on genetically and helped create more and more immune people over time... maybe that kind of evolutionary change was how the human race was meant to beat this threat! The whole thing is just so short-sighted and frustrating to me, because it genuinely did NOT have to go down like that if they had just gone about it in a different way.
This is the entire reason I have always felt that Joel was justified. I also see it how they could have done some tests to see if anything could have been extracted without killing her. ( I do not remember what the extra documents in the hospital in the game stated ) That would be interesting too to see if Ellie would be able to birth some immune children in the future. Another avenue not explored.
I completely agree, they went about it completely wrong. The problem is, Marlene did not know that Joel formed a strong bond with Ellie. The Joel she knew from the beginning in the QZ wouldn't have cared that much as long as he got paid for delivering Ellie.
@@AmarthwenNarmacil there was still time to regroup when she DID realize how much Joel cared. The moment she realized how he felt, what their bond was, and how far he was threatening to go if she forced the issue she should have said "you are right. I get it. We will let you see her right away so you can be there when she wakes up. and then we will let HER decide what we do next. We won't force her or hurt her, and I promise that we will respect her choice if her answer is no". She could have disarmed him by removing that imminent threat to his child's life, and then relied on ELLIE to make Joel back down if she was as willing as Marlene assured Joel she would have been. But then the conflict wouldn't have made for such a dramatic ending, so... obviously that didn't happen 😂
@@sarah4hp If you think Joel would have accepted Ellie's choice, you are HIGH. He would have knocked her out so she couldn't fight him and taken her away anyways.
When you're in "The Zone", it's when you're so experienced that you can leave most of your actions on auto-pilot, leaving more of your conscious mental faculties free to focus on higher level considerations. The low-level decisions are automatic, so you can think several steps ahead.
While I agree this is true, I dont really buy it here. It seemed way too easy and the fireflies are a trained militia who can't even wound a single assailant? Its nonsensical. I would've bought it if it had been a more desperate series of lucky kills like it is in the game. This show rushed through or else completely omitted the action and I think it suffers greatly for it.
@@wardweezy947 I get what you're saying. I'm of a different mind in this. If they had increased Joel's body count in earlier episodes, his ruthlessness here would have been less impactful. As for the realism of it, I agree. It's not implausible though, especially when the Fireflies have to worry about friendly fire. They have to identify him first to make sure they wont shoot a companion, whereas Joel can unload indiscriminately. And from what we can see Joel isn't making any mistakes or having any hesitations. It's plausible enough to let me suspend my disbelief and just bask in the drama.
Oooo.... first Members only video Exiting. So fun fact one of the nurses is laura bailey who voices abby in game 2 It's awesome to see the og voice actors in the tv show 👌.
I've seen people make the point that with her age and level of trauma, Ellie wouldn't have been in a position to consent to the surgery anyway, even if Marlene had sat her and Joel down and spelled it out.
I agree she was in no condition to give her consent at that point, but that doesn't make what Marlene and the fireflies wanted to do acceptable. At that point in the story, humanity had been dealing with the outbreak for over 20 years. They couldn't wait a little more and try a solution that was more respectful of Ellie's will? They were willing to sacrifice her on the spot, without her consent, in order to MAYBE find a cure. And another thing: cordyceps changes the behavior of the infected, not the non infected. People don't necessarily have to be horrible towards one another in dyer circumstances. A vaccine wouldn't cure THAT. I'm 100% with Joel on this one. A utilitarian humanity that can't view the value of a life (just how useful it can be to a specific purpose) is not worth saving.
Yeah you can't give a child who's been traumatized deeply and lives with intense survivors guilt the choice to sacrifice herself. That's like offering a suicidal person a loaded gun
@@system0fadowner251 yes you can especially if it means potentially save the world your analogy is not taking to account the stakes of a life saving vaccine she wants to make her life matter and by doing this it would.
Then again we are living in a post apocalypse world with zombie like creatures forming the majority of the population. I dont think childhood is what it was earlier.
Since Ellie wasn't ready to talk about her trauma and Joel isn't good at talking about things like that, he just told Ellie his suicide attempt and how meeting Ellie healed him is how Joel said to Ellie "it gets better"
I love that pause.. Right before he says they've stopped looking for a cure. Because not only does it cut to seamlessly show him shoot Marlene.. but its him almost unable to even say the words and tell Ellie her immunity means nothing. Because he knows its wrong deep down... and he knows thats something she was priding herself on. Super sad .
Someone commented on one of my comments on a TLOU video and it made me think. They said giving Ellie the choice, at least at that time, could be a terrible thing, because she's a child suffering from survivor's guilt and other traumas, and she probably wasn't in her right mind to make a decision like that. It made me think of how careful we are in places where doctor-assisted suicide is allowed, making sure the person wanting that assistance is of sound mind and such. I had never considered that and I wonder what a mental health professional would say to that.
@@Laurel_Ellenstreet Hi, Laurel. Hope you're well. Apologies, but you seem to be completely missing my point. The whole point of the comment is that she's a child with survivor's guilt and may not be in the right frame of mind for making that decision. In such a scenario, her perspective is irrelevant, just like if someone requesting assisted suicide was deemed to be not in the right state of mind, it wouldn't be allowed. And I think it can be reasonably assumed that in the real world, no doctor would consider Ellie to be of sound enough mind to make this decision under these circumstances.
The revelation that Joel’s scar was self-inflicted really broke my heart. It must have been hard for Pedro Pascal to film that scene as well, since he’s shared in some interviews that he lost his mom to suicide when he was younger. I think Joel told Ellie this because he sensed some depression in her and wanted to tell her that despite her trauma, it will get better and she’ll be okay. Ellie helped heal his wounds, and he wants her to know that he’ll be there when she’s ready to share, if at all. When she said, “I’m glad *that* didn’t work out” and he responded with “Me too” made me cry because essentially they both agreed that they’re both happy that he failed at his attempt and that he’s still here. Yet another heavy subject that I think the show handled really well. Also, knowing Joel attempted added more weight to when he was trying to get Henry to not do the same back in Ep 5…he knew what he was going to do because he had been there himself. Ep 1 is called “when you’re lost in the darkness”. The finale is called “look for the light” Ellie’s name means light. She helped Joel find his purpose again-it’s her. If anyone else like myself felt like that scene resonated with you, please know you’re not alone. Your purpose, your Ellie is right around the corner. You are loved and there are people who you haven’t met yet who will need you and will be glad you stuck around. ❤
Dammit Georgia! YES! Noticing Ellie give Joel the space to talk about the suicide attempt.....everything you said around that, how people tend to react if that person wants to share...yes to all of it. It's really hard for me to open up about my own experiences around that for that EXACT reason, and I was struck so hard by Ellie's listening in this scene that I actually missed a lot of what Joel actually said after I realized what he was talking about. Thanks for noticing that detail, it definitely struck me as well.
You are wrong. Joel was telling her about him trying to shot himself was for ellie to know that life goes on (as it was right after the conversation in the balcony or something) and to tell her in his own way that she is the world to him
What I find so fascinating about this episode is how both Marlene _and_ Joel deprived Ellie of the opportunity to make her own choice; Marlene used force, Joel used deception. Marlene was afraid that Ellie would not consent to the surgery; Joel was afraid that she would. Joel and Ellie are going to have some major trust issues to sort out during Season 2.
Love the growing flowers on you throughout the video - such a lovely way to do that. Great analysis as always, the only small nit-pick I have is I think the show does in fact make it clear Ellie would die (how Marlene talks about it "she won't know it happens / feel anything" to giving Ellie's knife to the grunts tasked to escort him). But it didn't influence the analysis much, so it's fine.
On the HBO podcast Ashley Johnson said the way she interpreted her “okay” moment was like an acknowledgment of Joel lying, and an acceptance of like, “Okay. I knew you were lying, I gave you another chance, and you lied again. I can no longer trust you. I’ll stay with you but we’re done.” I dig it.
She knows there's something, but can't process it now. Meanwhile, she needs stability, needs Joel, and loves him (she'll never NOT, regardless of any conflict).
I think the main thing that resonated for me, that made me cheer on Joel during his rampage, was the fact that in this version, nobody decided to ask if Ellie would be ok with this. Informed consent is a law for a reason. ^_^
5:30 So it's interesting to hear you talk about how much of a strain it can be hearing someone talk about such heavy things. Often as a therapist presumably that's your job. What strategies do you employ to help yourself get through that and manage your own emotional wellbeing in the job?
My, your hair decorations are gorgeous, and here i thought you couldn't be more beautiful :) Besides that, love the analysis, it's interesting how open Joel has become and how much he loves Ellie where he will do anything to protect her, like a father. I can't blame Joel for what he did, because i would argue that any parent would or a true family member would protect and do anything for their loved ones...it's not rational...but it's love and i simply cannot say that he did the wrong thing, it's complicated. When there is someone you love is in danger, regardless of relation, nothing and no one else matters...especially some strangers like Marlene and the Fireflies.
It's been a great journey with you covering this series. Your analysis and commentary is informative and educational. I look forward to future content from you.
While you're correct that in Joel's mind, the doctor is the one who is going to harm Ellie, it's incorrect to say that he is not a risk. A knife-wielding assailant can absolutely close the distance and do very serious damage at that distance.
He was never a risk. Besides the fact that he brought a knife to a gun fight, the doctor was NO fighter. A surgeon would never risk his hands even by just hitting a heavy bag. Even without the gun, Joel could have easily taken him out. SO many ways to take out an amateur with a knife. Even someone with a little experience with a knife. The thing with a knife is the fear it instills in you of getting cut. You accept the FACT you are going to get cut, then do what you have to do. Georgia knows about this stuff because she actually is a martial artist. So yes, she was right.
@@classicslover lol sorry but bringing the idiom "knife in a gun fight" as if it nullifies any real-life risks is a tad laughable. As you said, any martial artists know that in a knife fight you're going to get cut. And a cut can end your life - especially from something as sharp as a scalpel. I don't see how you can bring in that piece of wisdom yet not understand the lesson that comes along with that - don't get in a knife fight.
@@Narcissist86 It actually does nullify any risk. Joel just shot him once, but he could have shot him several times before he closed the distance. Kill shot in the head was enough. So you are trying to say that they doctor could have moved each of his legs maybe twice and lunged before Joel squeezed his finger once? What color is the sky on your world? Joel was already aiming at him. As to the "lesson" of don't get in a knife fight, in the REAL world it is sometimes unavoidable. Racist people and just plain jerks have attacked me with knives and tire irons and bricks and sticks. Oddly, they did not take time for discussion or debate. Ill mannered that way. = )
I love watching your videos. They provide new incite on each episode and it shows just how much research the creators have done to make this series as realistic/believable as possible.
I really appreciated how you spoke about.... when someone is sharing something really heavy (like joel sharing with Ellie his suicide attempt that memory/about Sarah ) You pointed out how it is really sacred to be able to hold space as a person recounts that particular trauma and just listen. In Joels case I think we can safely assume he probably never shared that with anyone and him being able to the -theres alot of value there in the context of his relationship with Ellie finding that safety in each other. SO BEAUTIFUL it hits the heart. I think its easy to forget the value of listening to someone share something really dark a memory or recall a event. Even though I think that is something all people would want to be able to do themselves is open up. It is helpful to be able to unburden oneself with sharing certain things. Its interesting how wired / common in people it can be in the act that we want to sometimes divert a heavy thought or memory and bring someone out of it when a person might be sharing with us recounting. Such heavy conversations can be uncomfortable as a listener its often sometimes hard to be able to hold space. Why do humans avoid this? Is just a layer of Psychology that has interested me personally. It was really refreshing to hear your analysis. I find alot of value in your breakdowns. thankyou
@@GeorgiaDow Okay, 😄 That is like so true and so interesting truly. It made me think about ..memoirs or shows etc that are tragic like even this show. Why are people attracted to reading or hearing these kinds of stories do you think?
Many people vilify Joel for taking away Ellie's choice/agency without her consent, yet totally approve of Marlene for doing the very same thing. 🤦♂ Was Ellie in the proper headspace to understand or consent if informed? Not really and Joel knows this. Marlene didn't know of Ellie's recent trauma, yet she took her unconscious body from the patrol and sent her directly into surgery. I think this makes Marlene's decision worse. _telling puns_ 💥 *BANG* 💥 _straight to surgery_
Ellie was not unconscious with the patrol, she was fully alert and physically unharmed. They took her back and probably stuck a needle in her that she thought was for drawing blood but it was actually anaesthetic. She probably even met briefly with Marlene, otherwise she wouldn’t have asked about her since she didn’t know she’d be there. I’m assuming you’re familiar with the game since you’re thinking of what happens there.
@@TukaihaHithlec Roughly 26 minutes into the episode, Marlene: "We didn't tell her, we didn't cause her any fear, there won't be any pain.". *We. Didn't. Tell. Her.* Consent for thee, but not for me.
You are the first person I've heard suggest that Ellie, would also Kill & lie to protect Joel, just as he did. I hadn't thought of it that way, but I believe you are right. I don't agree with Joel, lying to Ellie, but I understand:)
I think what you said about staying busy and being at work being sometimes really good for dealing with emotions is really true. I've been working from home for the last year and I have never been more miserable and in my thoughts constantly and these last few months I've been extremely toxic and clingy and impatient towards people I want attention from and a huge part of that is the fact that I'm at home most of the day amd only go out when I force myself to so I can get food or see friends. However I just got a second job part time at a var Mt friend works at where I work the back kitchen and I've never been more relaxed and patient with people. Its like I'm finally getting a release I've needed this whole last year .
Does anyone actually think the Fireflies would actually be able to do the science to make a cure? Let alone mass produce it? Given they've never demonstrated any level of competency at anything... ever?
That is my questions. I have SO many. Starting with : HOW do they know she has fhe fungus in her brain? If they scanned her brain via MRI (possible, we don't know how long they were knocked out for) couldn't they have shown that? Then there's the whole grow cordicyps out of Ellies brain; cultivate it ; locate and duplicate the correct chemical messnengers . WHERE? and with WHAT? Because everything they were describing; requires a lot of very specialized equipment and a very steady power source. I mean, you can't mcguyver a microscope out of car parts.
I always wonder how the script writing or acting works when you watch Georgia's detailed psychological explanation. I mean, every detail fits perfectly as she described but I am not sure if these deep yet subtle emotions had not been considered in the script or act. Are there psychologist on site teaching actors what to do?lol
Apparently HBO uses something called a intimacy coordinator (for sex/intimate scenes) in all their shows since 2018. Wouldn't be too surprising if they had a psychologist onboard to guide the actors... That Bella's rage scene in episode 8 can't be easy to get in and out.
It is interesting how different Joel is between the game and tne show. Game Joel is very selfish and his motivation feels like it is preventing him from being alone. Saving Ellie is preserving his humanity. In the show, that connection feels more genuine. it is more about Ellie and less about him.
I feel like at the end Joel also does it for Ellie, he wants to show her that life, while tragic, is also beautiful and there's always something worth fighting for. Sadly she doesn't learn that until it's too late.
The show made it MORE about him, not less. In the game, Joel had had moments in his life that gave him purpose. He had feelings for Tess (She knew he did hence her plea to take Ellie for the both of them and their redemption - "There IS enough here.. you have to FEEL some sort of obligation to me" - was about his feeling for her) At the end he said: "you KEEP finding something to fight for". Meaning he found Tess and when she died, he found Ellie. In the show he did NOT have feelings for Tess (She knew he didn't, hence her telling him "I never asked you for anything, not to feel the way I felt, not to..." "This is YOUR chance"). At the end he said: If you keep going, you (eventually) find something new to fight for. This means he had NOT until Ellie. Up to that point he had just been "going" and not finding.
9:40 "Would you be willing to sacrifice your loved one for the world?" - Not without their consent and before thorough consideration of the issue with them, that's for sure. Even if given the choice, I don't think Ellie was in the right head space to be given that sort of a decision, don't you think? Her self-esteem is probably at the lowest it's been. I fear she would agree to the sacrifice more based on how little she cares for herself, rather than how much she cares for the world, if that makes sense. Ideally, she would get time to overcome her trauma first, maybe even to grow up first, so she can make a more considered decision.
I learned so much from this video, teared up like three times thank you also love that fit georgia! The way more plants appear on you as the video gets longer is so GOOD. clever!
Based on the name of the game and what Joel has seen and become himself the last 20 years I think he deep down believes that the last bit of humanity that is left is too far gone to save. However, Ellie, who has become basically an adopted daughter can be the future if he can help her to be better than he was and make a better future starting with her.
A scalpel is actually a larger risk than a gun at that range. Within 20 feet, knives are more dangerous than guns. Just thought I’d correct that misconception.
quickly my new favorite youtuber! only been following the past few months or so, but your videos are one of the things I look forward to now XD and the fact you play D&D is just 11/10. ill keep an eye out on twitch too just in case lol
well if it isn't "Cordyceps Dow!" another great Therapist breakdown/reaction video; you checked every box with this review! by the way Georgia, the giraffe scene, straight outta the game AND that was a real life giraffe filmed at the zoo and edited into the show scene. oh, and i case you think i wasn't paying attention, yeah, i noticed the Cordyceps growing as the video progressed; that was a really nice touch too. first i thought i was losin my damn mind and had to go back like "wait, was that there before?!?" you have done an amazing job on this season, can't wait to see you dive into Season 2. thank you Georgia Dow!
Of course, there are those documents in the second game that mention other immune survivors and the failed fatal attempts to extract that immunity. So Joel ultimately made the right call here.
was looking forward to an analysis of this episode. The Fireflies presumed Ellie's choice, but never asked because they were afraid of the answer. Joel decided for her, negating her agency. Given the man's history of loss and his newfound hope in Ellie, his actions make sense. Unfortunately he lies to her in an effort to protect himself rather than her.
My interpretation of Joel shooting the doctor the way that he did is much simpler: he told them to unhook Ellie and all of them chose not to comply. Executing any one of them was the fastest way to force the remaining two to comply through intimidation, the doctor was simply foolish enough to bring a scalpel to a gunfight.
Same, I might be too much of a pragmatist but it A) removes the person in the room openly defying my orders and B) It shows the nurses its not an empty threat and I get 100% compliance with my next order.
I first saw this game when I was like 13 and when the ending happened I was like: this isn’t something someone good would do, but it’s something I totally would do for a loved one. Now I’m 19 and I would definitely, without a shadow of a doubt, do what Joel did if I was in his situation. Love is selfish this way
I think Joel's response is caused by Marlene and the Fireflies treated him like shit, even after what he did for them. On one side it is like whatyou said, Joel doesn't want to experience the same loss as he has experienced with Sarah. I think if the Fireflies treated him in a better way, discussed with Ellie and Joel about their plan peacefuly, Ellie can choose to sacrifice herself then she can ask Joel to accept her choice, just like Frank did to Bill in episode 3. One last thing, if Joel and Ellie can have a warm and peaceful goodbye, I think Joel will try to accept her choice. This is my thought
@@GeorgiaDow I surely did! I love that you always dress up for the occasion, but this one is so creative! And let's admit it, flowers and plants are much cuter than fungi 😂
So Georgia...! Woodland Fairy...love it! OR...you kicked a heavy bag SO hard it BURST! And there was plant seed inside! And THEN it rained! Either way, its a GOOD look! = ) I'm thinking Ellie's Mom was the flirtatious waitress (Stan Lee told Steve Rogers to ask for her number in the deleted scene) in The AVENGERS. Yep...I truly DO believe that Ellie would have killed everybody to save Joel if the situation was reversed. And also I DO believe in healing...because wounds. There are physical, mental, emotional and spiritual wounds to heal from. Not sure why Ellie questioned Joel in the first place. Seems like one of those "because the script said so" moments rather than having any real reason or motivation. Ellie was unconscious. She did not give consent because she was not told the truth. I would have stopped it too.
Really enjoyed your analysis of the show and the different emotional and psychological issues you breakdown for the characters. Also, love the nature vibe you’re rocking❤
Feels like Joel would've respected Ellie's choice if the Fireflies took the time to ask her instead of just sending her to surgery as soon as she arrived (I still don't understand why the rush even if I get the narrative necessity of all that 😅). It might have been hard for him, maybe too hard to bear, but he wouldn't have gone on a rampage like he did if they had done just that. I remember what I thought while playing the game. I was like "ok, so everybody has to die because no one took the time to ask for a teenager's consent 😅" and, maybe that was the point of the whole story in the end, maybe humanity deserved to disappear if people couldn't even do that simple action anymore. Anyway, the Fireflies weren't going to save humanity and maybe Joel was doubtful of their capabilities all along. Their surgeon thought he had a way to make a cure, sure, but it's dubious they had the means to create all that with their tech and level of expertise and they wouldn't have been able to spread their mutated cordyceps across the USA, let alone the rest of the world. Maybe it would've been faster for them to use pregnant women to recreate the conditions that made Ellie immune in the first place... ok, that's pretty horrible. But they're horrible people anyway so why not. 😂
I was thinking the same thing. Marlene knew HOW Ellie became immune, but it seemed that had not even been an explored avenue. It seems that if they had the expertise and tech to do sketchy brain surgery, then why wouldn't they have been able to develop some kind of testing that didn't involve the nonconsensual self-sacrifice of a kid? And hey, if Marlene really wanted to save the world, she could have volunteered to get pregnant, infected, and sacrificed her own child without its consent.
@@PhiDivina Marlene could have suspected how Ellie indirectly came into contact with the Cordyceps, but she had no details that would allow for easy replication of the exact circumstances. What was the vector of infection? Shared blood with freshly bitten mother, contact of umbilical cord with the blade that was recently used to stab an infected, prolonged proximity to the freshly infected, non-fully turned person? There are multiple possibilities and doing an extensive testing with dozens of subjects wouldn't be viable.
@@marcinsikocinski4661 It just seemed (which of course could have just been for narrative sake) that it hadn't been explored. A few words of dialogue might have been helpful there. Probably wouldn't have avoided the carnage, but may have lent some weight to the idea that Ellie really was the only option and that Marlene had done all she could do.
Joel would not have respected Ellie’s decision. He knew she’d agree and that’s why he didn’t let her choose, and that’s why he lied about it. Ellie could flat out insist that he let her sacrifice herself and he’d still kill everyone. On top of that, regardless of real world science and in universe probability, Joel killed them believing they would have succeeded in saving the world.
It really bothered me that Ellie wasn’t given the choice. But neither was Joel. He had no alternative at that point. They had already started the surgery. This was not close to a sure cure. They didn’t take tests or try less invasive options. Was that doctor qualified? What research had he done? I’m sad he felt the need to protect her with lies as we adults often do. She didn’t believe him. I’m sure this will haunt their relationship in the future even though they had come so far in their bonding. Enjoyed your analysis throughout this intriguing series.
Thats what i thought aswell. The disrespect of the whole situation to Joel is another factor. He brought Ellie to this hospital defying all odds and what does he get? Despite not given a choice they basically said, be thankful we dont shoot you and dispose of you with a pocket knife as a reward, stripping you of all your gear.
In the second game, we find out that the doctor only had a PHd in biology. He was no surgeon. And why kill your only known specimen. There were other less invasive procedures to try. PS cordysceps don't attack the brain. They control the nervous system.
Exactly! Plus you have to doubt their capability when they believe because it grows in the brain, that they have to have a piece of her brain to make a cure. Antibodies are in the system and are found in the blood.
We're given very little info in the show or the game about the Doc's experience or what type of research has already been done. I always assumed that Ellie was never asked (even though she would've consented 100%), because they didn't want to take that risk. They knew that they were going to perform the surgery whether she allowed it or not. So why go through the exercise?
One change I do not like about the story is that, in the game, the musical score is not played until after Joel retrieves Ellie and escapes while running with her in his arms to the elevator while evading more soldiers. This feels like the music is playing out of compassion for Joel and Ellie. However, On the show, since the music is playing in the action of Joel's spree, the music feels as though it is playing for the slain Fireflies.
I find it interesting that Anna and Joel both lied to ensure Ellie's survival. Anna lied to Marlene of cutting the umbilical cord *before* she got bit, while Joel lied to Ellie believing she was going to die. Both wanted her a chance to live, but it's murkier for Joel since he caused a lot of bloodshed for her to survive. For Anna, Ellie was literally just born; no parent would want their child to die young, so of course she wanted her to live, even if she was infected. Riley's "go poetic and lose our minds together" comes to mind, too. Also, Joel *knows* Ellie would've made the choice he didn't want and gives away her autonomy, just like the Fireflies did.
The only ethical way to solve this imho as a parent would have been to let Ellie grow up to about 18 when she has more distance from the trauma and life experience and then let her decide for herself.
Like gamers who've played through the game, television viewers are going to be talking about and debating what he did in the show for a LONG time. Just removing the 'right or wrong' of what he did, his motivations were completely relatable. That's what makes this discussion so compelling. Ellie likely would have done the same. Ellie was also denied the right to make an informed decision. Despite being quite intelligent it's not entirely likely that she'd understand the gravity of what would she agreed to if she HAD been fully informed.
Joel didn't have time to ask Ellie's opinion because she was minutes away from surgery. I think if the Fireflies had asked Ellie, she would have done it, and I think Joel would have let her. I think he would have resisted, but then relented when she talked to him about it. I think after it was over though, he would have ended his life. What do you think?
First, this was such a great presentation! This is a version of the "Trolley Problem." I think, though, in this case, I would have made the same choice as Joel, until I saw the science behind the explanation. What the show is saying is that in the space where Joel is knocked out, they did enough tests to determine that it was a chemical signal being put out by the cordyceps in Ellie's brain and that it can, in fact be duplicated by taking the mass out of her brain. To me, there just wasn't enough time. What if a cure can be manufactured from her blood instead? Plus killing the only sample you have would not be good medicine. After all, what if the formulation doesn't work? So many ethical issues. Ok. Second, I think you are highlighting your elfish sense of style here! It is a wonderful break from the monotony of urban and suburban living. Have you heard of the idea of Nature Deficit Disorder?
There is a thread on reddit for medical professionals where they discussed the episode. Some were on board with Joel being justifed if only because it was unethical to kill Ellie for the sake of a cure that might not even work. Others saw it as a philosophical exercise like the "trolley dillemma" while overlooking the dodgy medical science on a TV show and that in a desperate situation, with an apocalypse, ethics might be tossed aside. But for the latter group you can't have it both ways. In an apocalypse there is utter breakdown of the moral order and social units become highly fragmented into smaller factions, families and even indivduals where only they matter. Life is cheap in these situations similar to wartime expediencies of take no prisoners and scorched earth. If Fireflies could be ruthless on offense (however justified they think they are) in killling Ellie then so can Joel on defense to save her life. And even as a layperson I wouldn't trust that this doctor and 2 nurses were certain to have a successful cure, especially by killing Ellie in the process. I was expecting a bit more careful research more resources and a larger team to make something work, and of course without killing someone with a unique gift. But all we got was Ellie going straight to the operating table with some unknown, possibly quack doctor and 2 nurses to have Ellie's brain excised. So it just wasn't believable to me that this was anything better than a longshot. So both rationally and emotionally, I'm fully on board with Joel.
