The Last of Us Part II | An Overdue Critique 

*"The game was never really our story. It was Ellie's story."* Love you, Hello Future Me, but this is really pretentious. Truth is, a lot of us just wanted a great follow up to an excellent fictional entertainment product after 7 years and we didn't get that.

@Harry Paul yea no

The game has a lot of pandering and bad writing.

Two things. 1: It may as well be a film, at that point. I didn't feel that the gameplay added to the story in any meaningful way (and in fact, the two elements were often at odds). 2: The story taken by itself was an illogical mess, which made the emotional beats feel manipulative rather than effective.

@@TheAzureSky1 Preach!

Ah yes factionalism. The ultimate excuse not to listen to the argument for truth content or to steel man your proponents views.

Everyone has bias in multiple ways. It can be bold and shockingly clear, but the worst are subtle, cloaked in logic and rationalism. People may not even recognize their bias and think they're just being practical. But most alarming to me is that most people ARE reasonable, willing to listen and work towards a solution, and we are still experiencing the climate we're in right now. This is what is so insidious about Factionalism run rampant: individually, a person is willing to be at least somewhat objective, but we fall in line with what the loudest voices in our Faction are telling us is Right and True, even if we have reservations, because we believe everyone else in our Faction falls in line because it *IS* Right and True. It's easier to go with the flow of the majority you most agree with than to get bogged down by the minutia of each situation the "General Consensus" doesn't cover.

@Content Corrector I'd say literally everyone agrees, except arsonists.

Last I checked. Last of Us takes place in a post Apocalypse United States with fungi zombies. An armed group of outsiders coming into a town's territory. Torturing one of their men to death and leaving two people severely beaten. In any historical context in the real world this is an unprovoked hostile action on the town. What's stopping the town and its allies from putting together a posse together to hunt down Abby's party? Or sending a delegation to try to establish contact this groups leaders. Asking why their people decided to come into this town's sphere of influence to kill one man. Especially after their patrol saved this group from a pack of fungi zombies. Never mind the convenience of Joel falling into the hands of Abby's party. Which the amount of plot armor Abby and Ellie are wearing for this narrative about factions playing out had me laughing.

@@IdleDrifter I mean the main characters of these games have always had hella plot armor. Joel took out MULTIPLE armed groups in his trek across the country. This isnt a story of politics and operations of governing bodies, though. It was a story about people. And how people are irrational, make bad decisions, and are emotional.

Rage

@@ravedubin3983 If by rage then you mean Raging Biceps.. then yes.

Because her friend was pregnant and yet killed by Ellie , she did not know that Ellie had no choice

@@Urcutelove-s9z still doesn’t justify what she did I don’t care what Ellie Did if your reaction to finding out your about to kill an pregnant girl and her baby is sadistic yes than you pure evil

@@therookie1142 What are you trying to say ?

It's the same reason The Walking Dead has that new mini-series coming up. Most media in the past is about people adjusting to the brutal new world of a post-apocalypse. Now, we've moved into, "But... what about the children raised in that nightmare? And how will they grow up? How will they handle the world without their parents?" tbh it started with Lee from Telltale's The Walking Dead, one of the most powerful parental loss stories ever.

I don't think it's just in TLOU2. The whole thing in the original is Joel and Ellie. What's her name in charge of the fireflies feels responsible for Ellie like an aunt. But where as that game focused on the establishment of the relationship between father/daughter, this game focuses on the fallout of losing a paternal figure. The mother is deified, Jesse dies suddenly (before his child is even born) and Ellie (in Dina' eyes) chooses to not be part of that family. I would say the Last of Us's relationships have always been familial. Even Abby and the boy have a sister/brother dynamic.

Partly because this is a coming of age story. Specifically, being forced to grow up because your parent can't take care of you anymore.

What’s a bigger, stronger or more relatable example of a faction than a family?

@@nachgeben I made a comment referencing that but deleted it cause I rambled to much so I'm actually glad you brought up Lee and The Walking Dead Game.

The game would’ve been a lot better if we played Abby first without the knowledge that Joel and Ellie would be a part of the story. Then when it’s revealed that Ellie is gonna kill Abby, we play her part of the story. We get to see Abby and her friends go from heroes to villains (instead of the awkward reverse) and are rewarded by playing as Ellie again. We empathize with both characters that way.

I disagree, I liked Abby pretty much towards the end of the game. Abby goes from a sullen person towards a more caring person. This game is about questioning tribalism and breaking through the biases that it creates in that. Abby realizes that by making friends with her sworn enemy. That's a fact that the anti-Abby crowd doesn't seem to realize and they pretty much no different from the characters they piss on about ironically enough. They judge everything based on a fidelity towards a certain character, ie Joel. For them, Joel is the Last of Us and Last of Us is Joel. The standards that Joel set into motions and the world in The Last of Us must confirm to those standards. We keep acting like everyone in the Last of Us knows and cares about Joel's relationship with Ellie. They know that Joel is a caring father figure. But, they don't. From their point of view, they just know that Joel killed the doctor who could found a vaccine. They don't know that Joel had a loving relationship with that immune girl. For they all know, Joel stole her to use her and sell to another group because she is immune. Just as like detractors of the game have a predisposition to hating Abby and her friends for killing Joel even though he could have been right to save Ellie. Abby and her friends have a predisposition to hating Joel for killing Abby's father. Just like haters of Abby have a predisposition towards her, Abby and her friends' fidelity to Mr. Anderson clouded their vision and let their hate guide them.

I agree

@@ash9280 I don't think you've been listening to the majority of people that dislike Abby. We understand the messages the story is trying to convey. What you're not understanding is that half the fanbase (I don't know the percentages but we'll go with half) didn't make that connection with Abby. We were fine with (and even expecting) Joel dying but the way his death was brought about was rushed, unbelievable, and disrespectful (meaning no respect for Joel's character). Not just his death but even scenes with him and Ellie felt artificial. I'd even go as far to say that LOU Part 2 Joel is a completely different character from LOU Joel. If you wrote a story and your story is trying to convey a message, and only half your audience connects with the message even though everyone knows what you intended, it's not the audience's fault. It's that your story is not as well-written as you think it is. You can't just chalk it up to "Oh they just didn't understand the deeper meaning of it, but I understand it; everyone else are just haters." No, we understood it; it's just poorly written. You want a story that deals with all of these messages and even more, and does it exponentially better, try Berserk or Attack on Titan.

@@brandonkoranda9781 I have trouble understanding the idea that Joel's character deserved more respect vis-à-vis the way he died. From Abby's perspective and frankly mine as well what he did at the end of the 1st makes him a horrible person. To have him die a more honorable death would undercut one of the game's central themes.

100% Agreed. Emotionally and viscerally, it failed to connect with me.

If you don't see the hope at the end of the game idk what to tell you

Even if I do like the game, I understand what you mean. I haven't seen that and I thank you for bringing it up. It is a really good reason to dislike the game.

Well, I mean, if you were an objectively evil person, wouldn't you see hope in the bad guy getting away and never learning a lesson or even recognizing what they've done is wrong?

@@haydenschwab5313 Maybe why you see hope at the end of the game, instead a subtly insulting remark?

Those batteries were like a father to me

"My name is ____ and I switched to iPhone" or some shiz like that😂

@@X3._.n3 dang, that made me laugh a lot harder than it should have lol

“The cycle of violence” is a pacifist’s masterbation tool and a sociopaths wet dream. By not seeking justice you tolerate injustice in the apocalypse (there is no criminal justice system). Not foghting for yourself Or diplomatically resolving injustice invites repeated abuses. But that’s too inconvenient. Not saying there is a sunshine and rainbows option to resolve the dispute but that pacifism is not it either.

And by “pacifism“ I mean being averse to violence in some fear of it or for some reason thinking it’s never justifiable.

@@wastelesslearning1245 I am absolutely amazed at how profoundly you missed the point.

It’s amazing how people have no grasp on reality. There is no winning or “entirely good guys” in the apocalypse. No criminal justice system in the apocalypse which means to deter future transgressions you must do it yourself. Otherwise your inviting more roaming gangs of sociopaths to visit your time killing one after another of your townsfolk and leaving satisfied in that they get away with it. The game is lazy and straw-mans that inconvenient reality. But don’t bake the messenger blame the stupid wrighters for not thinking about “the cycle of violence” that invites more repeated abuses until something snaps. Should you feel bad for killing attack dogs bread and trained to throw themselves into the enemy without thought or should you blame the trainers? And who are these trainers again that all have names? Oh yeah militant factions who topple villages littler mines all over the place shoot on sight (literally you can’t not shoot them without getting a game over). Perhaps they should of explored diplomatic means of resolving issues if they really knew what they were talking about when discussing violence or maybe something like no lethal capture of Abby and bring her back to Ellie’s town to take her to A improvised court to determine fitting punishment? But no man “I don’t get it”. #fireflysdidnothing wrong!

No one gets to walk in, kill someone, and mock retribution/the victim because they are playing into “the cycle of violence”. Every villain will laugh and use that as an excuse. “Yeah don’t retaliate. Let me abuse you. Won’t want to play into the cycle of violence now would we?”- SCARS

100% agreed! 🙌

hell no

Why’s everything gotta be so linear in a story , isn’t it good when things arnt streamlined and thought provoking? I just don’t get it. Some abstraction is a good thing is it not ?

But realistically though would that not effect sales?

I remember how surprised people were when the first trailer dropped, and the story was still about Joel and Ellie. I thought their story was over.

First I'd like to say this is a good point to me. If we say the purpose of the game is to teach the player about factionalism and revenge then perhaps the violence of Joel's death made the lesson too hard. Perhaps some would have appreciated the game more if there was a lower barrier to feeling empathy. I do hope that even those who reject this game might some day in the future when they find themselves in a position where they feel wronged by an outsider to their faction will think back to this game. I am sure many won't and I don't have any way to tell how many other than base instincts about what people are like. I guess my response is if you make Joel's death less impactful will the emotions we learn about in this moment compare to the genuine emotion we will feel when we want revenge in the future. I come to this game as a form of practice. Can I maintain a desire for peace and healing over violence and revenge even when I'm this angry. I would put forth that it's not trying to only teach people unfamiliar with factionalism how damaging it is but also let those of us who acknowledge it's irrationality get a chance to put that belief to the test when we have an emotional investment to those that have been lost. Thank you for your point and the tension between having any lesson be challenging to those familiar with the topic and inclusive to those who are not is always something I find very fascinating.

It does feel Abby is unjustified if you take your feelings out Abby is justified to an extent. Torturing is still taking it too far but consider this her whole life was turned upside down because of Joel and for 4 years she's been suffering nightmare she can only think about is getting revenge on the man who took everything from her for that she's even ruined her relationship. Torturing is still too Far but considering everything you can understand why she did torture him she thought causing him all that pain would take away her nightmares and fix things. It didn't like “sometimes the way we deal with trauma isn't the way out but you still don't know what the right way is” She as to deal with the consequences of this. None of Abby's actions are any more cruel than Ellie they just seem worse cause we prefer Ellie. If you justify Ellie's you justify Abby's as well otherwise it's hypocrisy. You say Abby got her revenge and gets to walk way but she lost her lover all her friends and basically her whole faction(Though she didn't agree with them anymore leaving your faction and having to kill them for your survival is definitely not easy). All she as left is Lev she definitely didn't come unscathed her revenge came with a heavy price. Just like Abby Ellie still as Dina and JJ she's going to have to work for her and Dina to go back to how they were but since it's heavily hinted at they've seen each other she still as Dina and JJ just like Abby as Lev. Both of them paid a heavy price for their actions and both are left with a small piece of their family intact. The player wins he/she can finally take solace in the fact that these two woman are finally able to move past the cycle of violence and revenge that as ruined their lives and can finally look to the future with their loved ones having finally left the past behind. The ending is far more hopeful than most realise. It's bittersweet like the first games ending.

I totally agree on this point, way too brutal and seeing their unconflicted reactions made it feel disjointed as they then tried to go 'and here's why they did it'. Another thing I think, though I could be totally wrong on this, is in the first game with David and his crew in winter, they could have easily told this same story at that point. As they tried to do, except he turned out to be batshit crazy. It's not a bad story to tell in the apocalyptic setting and it's a very real thing, but 2 just went a little too ham. Though I admit I am in the camp of 'this isn't the story I wanted', but when I think about what I would've wanted from a second game...not much. If even a second game. I was dying to see more of how Ellie would handle Joel's lie, if she thought he lied or not, but that's not what 2 focused on and I didn't care to hear anymore. 2's story just beat a dead horse/Joel for too long and too hard for me.

"They essentially set themselves an impossible task further complicated by working in an interactive medium." Based on the digging I've done, I believe that was entirely Neil Druckmann's intention: "Could we make take a character, make the player absolutely despise them, and then bring them to empathize with that character?" TLOU2 was, in every way, Naughty Dog's most ambitious title. Neil also knew that there would be people who would never be able to get on board with it. I would argue that Ellie did obtain victory: the ending is far more ambiguous than people realize, and while I found it depressing at first, I've come to see it as more hopeful than anything.

Just stupid why making these things? Game is about fun and not about being angry omg

If I were to flawlessly make a follow up to LotR where Gandalf went around clubbing hobbits on the head with his staff, then both Brandon and Tim better not say anything about it.

Agree

Except it drops the ball on it and even if it were ment to be everything is crap the logic behind it is so poor. They showing of it is bad. Its simply frustrating and makes you not care. Iok from Gundam ibo is someone you hate with a passion. He's bad and annoying in the way you still are invested in. This game just loses you. Furthermore I think ibo season 2 has more to say and ties in better with Gundam as a series with the shift in roles that the protagonists we follow are in.

There's another Sanderson quote that talks about this: "Tastes vary, and that's OKAY." This is his sixth point in his '10 Things I Wish I had Known as a Teenage Writer' video (past the 20 minute mark). At the end of the day, there are going to be 1-star reviews posted for every story under the sun, even for cherished, non-provocative classics. There's clearly a sizable amount of people who like what TLOU2 says and does, and there is an audience somewhere who will like seeing Gandalf bashing hobbits on the head. Your taste matters a great deal when you want to critique anything

@@jacobottesen5279 I'm not saying that's not true, but there's a level to which philosophy goes beyond taste and becomes mindset, something whose value is just as subjective yet definitely nontrivial.

me too! it made this review a breath of fresh air

Accepting

@@kentuckyfriedchildren5385 how did I miss that and not correct it lol

@@micaiahborchers8914 haha I don't know, I have poor reading comprehension

@@kentuckyfriedchildren5385 oops 😅

Judging by the way people reacted to leaks and were hating on the game pre-release, it appears direction was the problem for most people. Particularly the direction where Joel gets to face the consequences of his actions in the first game and the game featuring a muscular female lead.

@@weaverquest That was because of the lack of context. Killing Joel is an interesting idea/direction but they pulled it off in such a disheartening and illogical way. Instead of outright killing him for opening up to strangers, they could have built the relation between Joel and Abby (this way we'd have liked both character) and she internally struggles about killing him (they could have hinted at this by her acting strange) but later when they are being chased by a hoard or something, she could have left him to die and revealed what he did to her father. I think this would have been more logical and emotional. That's not even the end of the poor execution. Multiple characters died and their names weren't even mentioned. Literally, Manny's and Jessi's death were so irrelevant. We went on a whole chapter to save Yara and she dies suddenly later, like what was the point? (If it was Lev's relation, it could have been done other ways). Also, Ellie kills so so many people to realize at the very end that she shouldn't kill Abby. They should have made her question herself a bit more too. To some degree, it feels forced, because of these illogical decisions which really puts you out of it, and it's worse because we control them. It could have been a much much better game.

@@FirezAper46... Abby had prepared for years and years of her life to avenge her father and kill Joel. How the holy fuck were they gonna have some special bonding time where that makes her question her intent to kill him??? Lmao

@@Vivivofi Well,if she had time to fucking TORTURE him to death with a fuckin golf club, probably she would have time to question herself and her revenge question when he LITERALLY SAVED HER LIFE. The fact that she simply ignores the fact that Joel risked his life and saved her and,yet,she still tortures him makes her even more irredimable and it gets worse when you think that the game wanted to you to sympathize with her,again,the problem it's the execution. There were other ways of doing this scene,but they chosen the worst one possible...

@@feralves1 ahahah.. okay, let me ask you this: how many people did Ellie kill on her brutal rampage across America? How many people? You’re giving the game a shitty review because it messed with your emotions, mate. It’s not ‘the execution’ or some shite like that, you just loved Joel so much. So did I. But let’s face it- he wasn’t exactly the perfect role model. He taught Ellie to behave the way she did in the second game, going on a mad murder spree. Do you get what I’m saying here?

Right?? Here is Ellie killing a dog, now she bad. Here is Abby petting the same dog, she good right? For me, the whole problem with the game isn't even the 'controversy of forgiveness' or 'oh no Joel died' or whatever. It's just the disrespect for the characters, storytelling, and messages that it lacks smacks you over the head with the message and I hate it.

Any game where a pregnant woman dies, and another one almost dies, you are trying too hard. Throw a couple babies on the grill while you're at it, because at that point you've gone too far, I've seen the wizard, and I know you're trying to make me feel bad with cheap tricks.

​@@cherrypopscile3385I agree completely.

A dog and a pregnant lady. Like cmon

You need to take into account that WE KNOW that Ellie killed Mel without knowing she was pregnant, but Abby has no way to verify that for herself. Mel’s jacket is open, so Abby concludes that Ellie must’ve known about Mel’s pregnancy and killed her anyway.

The game is not siding with anyone, it's just portraying its characters at different points of their respective arcs. Abby has already fulfilled her revenge and realised it didn't bring her any closure, so her arc is about understanding the futility of that endeavour and finding ways of making peace with the memory of her father, which she does by helping Lev. That's why he's the one that prevents her from killing Dina, he's the key for Abby to escape the cycle of violence started by her father's murder.

I think there is something here about Lev and Abby, because in the end despite all the atrocities Ellie commited and the people she lost but physically and emotionally, she never actually finished her revenge plot. Abby is showing how her revenge against Joel didn't bring her solace and having someone help her move on, while Ellie, despite having lost the ways to heal, never actually hits the final low that Abby did at the start of the game. She doesn't have as much work to do to heal like Abby did, and neither are really justified in their actions. Abby is about to fall down the same path that she once fell down, she just has people who are no longer cheering on those actions, while Ellie is surrounded more by the people who cheer on those actions so much she loses connection the people that don't cheer her on. And if Lev had died Abby wouldn't have that voice of reason and there is a high chance she would start slipping again. Sorry that's a ramble it's just a really complex idea, because I think part of the whole video is that we are justifying terrible actions because we agree with one person more than the other or because of how recently we saw them.

Idkll, I feel like you are taking things to personally because Ellie, the character you most like (and for good reason as we have spent much more time with her as a character and she is very likeable) did not get the result you wanted. I don't at all feel like Abby was favored

That’s because we see two characters in different stages in their revenge and grief, two themes the game explores extensively. They go through inverse paths. With Abby, we begin the game seeing her commiting an atrocious act that seems like from a disturbing episode of Game of Thrones, and we start in Seattle the process to discover her humanity, how she regains it in a painful process where she loses everyone who loved her. With Ellie though, it’s how she loses her humanity and turns into a destructive force willing to make all the pain at her disposal to feed her ego. Neil has declared in many interviews that violence and revenge are like drugs for Ellie. She’s concious of how pathetic and pointless they’re, but she has to do it, she can’t stop (it’s something we can see very clear whith her expression when she forces Abby to fight her in Santa Barbara). She blames Abby as if killing her will resolve her unresolved issues with Joel. What makes her think all the kills she makes on a revenge quest is her own inmunity, ad if all those kills are plainly justified. That’s what feeds her hero complex and the game constantly challenges that assertion by forcing her to make more difficult and ruthless choices. It’s not until the very end that she gives up, forgiving herself and (I do think) Joel, starting her way on a path towards redemption. I hope she can find a way to live on her own

Abby did not get a happy ending, and both Ellie and Abby got closure. Abby learned the hard way too, and suffered arguably more than Ellie did, though I don't think it's really a competition. Abby didn't get what she wanted, and it took a great deal of effort, struggle, and sacrifice for her to turn a new leaf. Abby is severely punished for her revenge and only rewarded for her acts of compassion.

That's a really good point. I haven't played either game, but I never once sympathized with Abby for her actions, and not just because she killed Joel, although that was clearly the main reason. They tried so hard to make her sympathetic, but failed in every way. Yes, her dad dying was tragic, but she also brutally killed a wonderful character who just helped her prior to that. It didn't matter who he was, she could've still spared him and what made it even worse was that Ellie was forced to watch. How the hell am I supposed to sympathize with Abby after that? If she was the main antagonist after the zombies with no redeeming arc whatsoever, then it would've been better in my opinion.

Abby is further along in her story arc, she kills joel then is filled with guilt. Her story is about redemption whilst ellie’s is about her reaching the point that abby got to after her dad died

I would like for the 3rd tlou to be that the kid Abby is taking care of is also inmune

I think you’ll get you Ellie ending in part 3. I don’t think we’ll see Abby again in the next game.

I agree with this. Well put

@Wackaz - Arthur Wacker I say he had to die as a storytelling device, it's not that I hate him. For the narrative to sell the idea of loss someone important had to die, and it made sense if that someone was Joel, he was important both for and for the players. Besides he was making enemies even before the Fireflies incident, something was bound to catch up to him sooner or later. Back when the trailer came out people even thought that Joel could've died between games and was only going to appear in flashbacks. We could live with that, if it was handled well, but as you put it, his death was tasteless and disresptful, tortured and murdered by a hooligan with a hormonal disorders.

@@williansnobre i would completely disagree that it was disrespectful. It was disrespectful on the part kf Abby, and deliberately so, but not disrespectful of the writers or the narrative. If it waa disrespectful, his death would have just been a meaningless and unnecessary plot device for nothing more than shock value in order to drive the plot forward. "Eh just get him out of the way so we can finally tell the story we actually want to tell." Instead, his untimely demise, Ellie's connection to him and the need for emotional and psychological closure because of his importance to her was the entire crux of Ellie's journey. You don't have this story without Joel mattering to all of the main characters akd to the audience. We have the story we got precisely because the connection that both we and the other characters had with Joel was meaningful.

@@Tyler_W That's a fair point, but it makes Abby's decision to leave Ellie and Tommy alive feel arbitrary. She tortured and killed a guy and loved it, killing the two nobodies that happened to be there would be a natural step afterwards (or at least attempt to, they could be forced to run after reinforcements from Jackson came) but instead she lets them live and gets mad afterwards because they "ruined it" once they come hunting her down. Alternatively Abby could've realized that she did something wrong the momment Ellie called Joel "dad", then leave in a hurry, claiming that they did what they came to do while trying to hide the guilt she felt from her group. Regardless if they wanted her to be seen as a monster or not, they could make her feel more human. The characters constantly make decisions that look like they were put in place to service the plot and feel artificial. Joel's death feels disrespectful to some of us because since the rest of the plot feel artificial and meaningless his death also becomes meaningless. Anyway, that's just my opinion.

I think that Ellie at the end was acting irrationally when she started that fight on purpose. She has trauma but at that point in the game, she hasn't been on her revenge killing spree in a while and her trauma won't go away by it. She initiates it because it's a last ditch effort for closure that she's unsure about but wanted to test it knowing that it's irrational (hence threatening Lev, who she just saved).

giggity

Yeah, unfortunately I couldn't cover everything. I picked my focus. I did talk with Henry about his thoughts on it all! We just disagree a bit, but that's cool. ~ Tim

Hello Future Me yeah no worries, the video is really high quality regardless. I aspire to create my own stories and eventually have them be successful when I’m older (only 16 now) and your videos across the board have really helped me learn, so thanks for that!

@@HelloFutureMe Signing off on comments with your name is dumb btw

@@ThwipThwipBoom So is being a jerk.

@@monsterhanna6691 True

I think you're forgetting the part where Joel also stopped a vaccine from being made. Regardless of whether or not it was possible, in Abby's perspective Joel has basically fucked over humankind.

@Cwavy_619 you know that most vaccines were given away for free right? Doctors arent that selfish dude

@Cwavy_619 even still. Like no one in the game is innocent but firefly is by far the closest

@@tieflingcorpse9817 so keeping your daughter from dying is “selfish”? Lol. Let me know how you feel if you ever have kids. See if you wouldn’t be arguing about this when you yourself would probably fuck over the world for your baby too. The Greater Good is mainly known as the politician’s dodge, the murderer’s solace, the culprits excuse and several other metaphors, because it is like a scapegoat they run to every time they make a decision that affects many in a harmful way, claiming that it will benefit many others. It is something that we all pass judgement on, but refuse to put ourselves in the decision maker’s shoes to realise what an impossible choice it is. The fireflies have already been aiding in decreasing the population when killing many others for a so-called “cure” or simply a vaccine. They’ve also committed acts of terrorism in quarantine zones against the U.S. military. The Fireflies are doing what is in “humanity's best interest”, as always. But you have to think about your new family, and humanity takes a backseat. The military was always the good guys, or rather, better than the fireflies. You see them guarding the ration stations, manning checkpoints, and pulling squatters out of buildings to check them for signs of infection. You also see them kill an infected woman and shooting some man running away. Now it is suspicious to run from the military when they check you for infection. Running from the authorities while doing a medical inspections is a sign that that person probably is infected therefore cannot allow him to risk infecting others. Especially when you know there are smugglers operating underground. So running away from a medical screening would be a sure sign that you’re infected when pulled from underground from hazardous zones. People can come and go as they please. Since the military do lethal injections on those who are infected, it shows they are being as humane as possible. They’re already sacrificing scarce medical resources to be humane. But what role do the fireflies play in this? By undermining the authorities of the military by promoting fears, and greed on the public. They ambush military convoys who may quite possibly be carrying food, ammunition, and medical supplies and engage in prolonged gunfights on otherwise harmless people which wastes ammo when they should be used to fight the real threats outside of their walls. And because they utilize smugglers for resources, that’s probably a primary reason why infected individuals make it inside of quarantined zones in the first place, thus promoting more hazardous outcome of the civilians inside said quarantined cities. They do more harm than good by weakening the militaries ability to keep the peace and keep civilians safe making their jobs of protecting the last remnants of humanity nearly impossible. And to make matters worse, they are planning to keep this supposed known hope for humanity, the vaccine, in their grasp because they are so desperate for control. Why do you think they commit acts of terrorism in the first place? To strike fear in the public which establishes dominance. Most innocent my ass. This isn’t about saving humanity, this is about dictatorship. Because if ever they have obtained a “cure” or a vaccine, they would most likely try to transport it to dangerous open terrain rather than share it with the military who would love to have a cure or vaccine just as much as they do for their people, and probably have many highly capable medical facilities to do so. And a fourteen year old girl would’ve died for that. Not to save humanity, but for the fireflies to gain control and power. Now that’s worse than what Ellie and Joel did combined. They only killed when necessary: to survive and defend. But that’s all over looked because today, we’re suppose to see rebels as the good guys. This isn’t Star Wars where joining the rebel alliance against a corrupted empire means you’re fighting the dark side to restore the republic, no, this is the other way around. It’s like saying Ultron and Thanos were the heroes while villainizing the avengers. But in reality, it’s the Fireflies, somewhere on the same levels as Thanos, are idealists with their own agenda and beliefs because they believed they could “save the world”. Kind of like how Thanos believed he was saving the universe but he wiped out half the population of the universe. But he committed infinite mass murder for his belief. So did the fireflies. What’s better? Committing mass murder for an idealism/belief or committing mass murder for survival/defense? Kind of like how the fireflies committed mass murder for their own beliefs. So the “greater good” has providing cover for great evil. That’s no one else decisions but theirs. Besides, the scientists haven’t even tried plasma or some other form of research as far as we know. They just go straight into killing. And without consent. Ellie isn’t old enough to consent. Not for this or anything else. Ellie has just as much right to live for herself as the rest of the survivors in the world and Joel had every right to live for himself and Ellie. If there were five sick individuals in a room dying, and you had a healthy child that the doctors would wish to cut open to kill her and save those five in the room, would you willingly give up your daughter for five strangers you don’t know? And what if one of those five individuals was a child molester or a serial killer? And why chance saving something like that by allowing my daughter as a sacrificial lamb? I wouldn’t and especially wouldn’t sacrifice my daughter to save a corrupted humanity full of mass murderers, cannibals, rapists, child molesters, terrorists; not at all. And if a vaccine were to be made, that would only be another reason to engage in prolonged gunfights to take the vaccine all for themselves because that’s how humans were. I mean, my god, they kill each other for energy bars and canned beans, you think they wouldn’t kill each other for an injection? The point of Joel’s character was to not only fight for survival, but to find something to live for in a world gone to hell. His daughters death from the beginning of the game was what motivated him to do just that, but he wasn’t just surviving for himself. All of that motivation for Joel to survive and to get a second chance at being a dad finds a new daughter in Ellie, thus giving her a second chance at life. When Ellie believed dying in the hospital would’ve given her life meaning, Joel told her “if the lord somehow gave me a second chance, I’d do it all over again.” Basically he’s saying that Ellie doesn’t have to sacrifice herself for her life to mean something because her life already meant the world to him and she had every right to have a second chance to find meaning to her life as well. And you’re telling me that Joel should put corrupted humans lives his top priority over his surrogate daughter? That’s not okay. That’s bullshit. Abby basically did the same as Joel did in the first game when it came to Lev. She turned on her own people, basically killing them, so that they wouldn’t kill Lev. She knew how morally flawed her own people were and couldn’t accept that was what got them killed including her father. The only hope you have in a world like that is to hold on to whoever and whatever you can while you still can. Enough with trying to see in black and white, this is morally gray which is more human and more realistic.

@Cwavy_619 it was stated once and even then ambiguous enough for us to not even be certain it was saying that. you’re lying.

i remember using a scope to zoom in on that girls ps vita to see what level she was on, loved that little easter egg

but that is exactly the same thing that Ellie did. She had no idea why Abby killed Joel yet she made the same journey. Only difference is that she knew where to look...

@@magdasylburska9030 There's a difference between immediately setting of for revenge versus waiting four years and never once questioning why the guy killed your dad? Really? you wouldn't have anything to say? Not telling him why you're killing him? The way Joel died was insulting and dumb, it was out of character for a man like him. Pacing was dumb, you don't start a game brutally killing of the main character from the last game and then asking us to connect with said new protagonist after spending have the game hunting her down in anger. We've formed our biases and it's hard to change that. It would have been way better to start as abby, go through all her shit and connect with her first. So many other things that were poor design choices, story choices and out of character reactions. Also the game didn't release with online which is another reason why the game is 6/10.

@@CanadianGreekhoplite But here's the thing. This the reason why I believe Abby is a despicable character. She knew damn well why Joel killed her father. ND basically never call her out on it in the writing, but it's there clear as day. She was listening in on Jerry and Marlene's discussion about choice prior to the surgery. She knew they were about to cut open a child without her consent. Did she question her father if it was truly the right thing to do? Nope. She just tries make a half-ass justification by saying "if it were me I'd want you to do the surgery." The question of right or wrong didn't even enter her brain. That's why she never had to ask Joel why before she beat he to death. She already knows why? And we are suppose to feel sympathy for this evil bitch? She showed none of that for the innocent girl lying on the operating room table.

Ehh, you kill my father and I'll probably want you dead regardless of why you did it or what life you lived previously. As horrible as it may be abby's father didn't want to do it and only chose to because it could save humanity. In addition to that Abby could have easily killed Tommy and Ellie but chose not to despite the risk. Joel didn't give Marlene that same luxury even though he killed nearly every firefly.

@@MangakasDream Doesn't matter if he felt bad about it. He was basically playing God. At least prior patients got to choose. With Ellie he made the chose for her. And by taking away Ellie's choice he left Joel with no choice. No parent is gonna stand by and allow their child to be murdered I don't care what the justification is. Jerry is confronted with that question from Marlene and he refuses to answer because he knows damn well if it were Abby on the table he wouldn't go through with it. Were Tommy and Ellie suppose to be grateful. Thank you for butchering Joel right in front of us and then leaving us behind so that we can clean up his bloody carcass. The fireflies deserved to get murked because of what they tried to do to Ellie. Joel didn't because he was essentially a father protecting a daughter.

because it more about what the game is trying to do which is not the issue not where it fail in excecution. other of books movies...tackle the same issue more succesfully.

These games have the risk of not being for everyone. I saw a couple of videos and trailers, and I chose to ignore the game because of the realistic violence; and I mean really realistic, like it would be like that in real life and really mess up people would do that. I know that I would not enjoy the game, but I agree that the game has a point and it is really mess up. And because the game is lineal, it eventually will force you to make these awful things most people disagree that are right. I think would be a little better if it was a movie. Because if it is a game, a linear game specially, it will eventually force you to so things to move the plot instead of being a pleasure or interesting experience or even a choose of your own. And I telling this even considering if the game was made perfectly, but it is not. This game somewhat can fails from time to time to make the tone that it was designed for. For a game that have a cost, it would not be recognized as a good game if many people who purchased it won't enjoy, so it is really dificult to make a game that want to be art (and worse if their head developers pretend that are the next level artist and wants to feel like they are more than people).

It wasn't contrived and it was the only logical end to Joel's character. When he kills everyone in the hospital, he sealed his fate and began living on borrowed time. They were going to find him, I don't think it really matters how they did. Maybe you should play the game for yourself.

It was incredibly contrived. I was open to liking Abby‘s side of the story when I first played and then her like, seven-month pregnant friend Mel ‘ gets approved’ to go out into an active battle zone that is known to be dangerous and immediately I thought “Oh okay, you’re not coming because you have to be here, your coming because the writers *want* you to be here and came up with a nonsensical excuse that would never really be allowed. There’s no way any sane group would approve a pregnant woman to go out into a war zone like this” The whole game is full of actions like this. Things that don’t need to happen but the writers want them to happen, so they forced them to happen, whether it makes sense or not. Ellie’s side of the story has moments like this, but not as many as Abby’s side. Edit: Also I want to add that the Red Wedding/Burning of Kings Landing is a good comparison to this game's story flaws. One is a situation where the character's flaws got them in trouble, the other, you could feel (and because of social media) some of the audience *KNOWS* that the writers forced this upon the characters instead of justifying naturally throughout the story.

Honestly you should at least watch the gameplay and then decide.

@@theoian Plenty of super awful people die warm in their beds of old age, sometimes even surrounded by loved ones. But I take your point, as I pointed out in a couple of other comments, Joel had a long and dangerous past that could come back to haunt him at any time. But it was still handled very poorly. Having a good idea doesn't mean your execution will be on point. See David Cage's games for some good examples that are still pretty fun to play despite this.

@@wholockedholmes5600 Mel needed to be in the battlezone because she and Owen was supposed to leave the Woves all together and find a better life elsewhere. I think Mel used her medic card (which are already rare in the game's world) to go to the unsafe areas so she and Owen can escape. Or at least that's what I remember. The story is not contrived, you just need to pay attention. I am not saying it's perfect. I felt the end was a bit dragged out. Like they could have endded with Dina, Ellie and the boy living peacefully. I can see why they dragged it out. Abby made her peace with Ellie but Ellie didn't. But I feel that last part could have been a DLC or idk a spin off or something. My biggest gripe is how Abby didn't tell the reason why she killed Joel to Ellie. Ellie acknowledged with Dina in one scene while at Seattle how Joel probably had it coming, since he killed so many people. And he also did some messed up shit off camera before meeting Ellie. But still I think Ellie would have probably forgiven Abby sooner if Abby gave more details to her. Idk man I love this game but it's like those movies you watch once. You appreciate the message, the character writing and it's beauty despite it's flaws. But you won't watch again despite that.

If they used a different cast of characters, you lose the strong emotional bond. This deflates the shared horror and need for revenge that Ellie feels, because we all loved joel too. And that's why you see the split between the characters we knew all along and the characters "we haven't met." You didn't relate as much to the other faction because they were new. They have less weight to their problems. That's the whole point.

Think people only think something is contrived when the result is something negative. The entire ending of the first game is almost exactly like this. After going through a harrowing experience with the infected and almost drowning, Joel and Ellie wash up right where a Firefly patrol is. Ellie isn't breathing and the Fireflies are able to revive her. So they just happened to escape a horde and almost drowned and conveniently ran into a Firefly patrol that could save Ellie. Starting to sound familiar. Marlene conveniently doesn't kill or restrain Joel after it's made clear he wants to save Ellie. After saving Ellie by killing the one guard guarding him, Joel gets to a car, and the one person with the authority to go after Ellie is conveniently the only one preventing him from escaping. Instead of just shooting him, Marlene conveniently lets her guard down, which Joel is able to exploit to kill her and escape. There are other examples in the game where Joel or Ellie are just insanely lucky. Joel runs into his brother in a random town. Ellie happens to run into the same cannibals that attacked her and Joel (you could argue that with Joel being severely injured, they would be in the same area, so it's reasonable to run into the same group), and she happens to run into a cannibal that would negotiate with her to get antibiotics for Joel. The point is that like you said all stories have contrivances, but I think bias is certainly a factor. In game design, developers often have to make the player's chances more favorable than it should actually be for players to think something is fair. Just my thoughts. You are perfectly free to have your opinions on whether it's too contrived for you.

@@gamingblastoise7959 They DEFINITELY could have pulled off the first. Many stories pull off the first. Heck, the intro could have been us getting to know them, some tutorials as we do missions with them and they get to know the town. Really sink in before the turn. There's better ways they could have done this. They just chose not to. And that's the critique, which is a valid one. And even beyond this, they had more choices that would have been in character, and less contrived.

@@andrewli6606 The problem with that Andrew is that Last of Us 2 is TRYING to kill Joel. So they set up this entire scenario to ensure he dies and as William said the killers can slip out which contradicts the story the writers established in that Abby's group and Joel both were surrounded by a snow storm and zombies. Suddenly those are all gone allowing Abby to slip out. Its a lot of "coincidences" (contrived) in ONE scenario compared to your comment where there are multiple coincidences over the entirety of one campaign. You do make some fair points. Though Marlene not restraining Joel really just doesn't make sense because she did not expect Joel to be upset after they knocked him out and stole Ellie to die in a surgery that MAYBE can unearth a cure. If anything the Fireflies are quite dumb. Also the writing in Tlou2 is bad. Joel dies because Ellie is being irresponsible with Dina having sex when they are supposed to be on patrol. Out of character and dumb. Joel gives a bunch of strangers his real name instead of a fake. The writers of TLoU 2 railroaded him into a death.

I knew it🤣

Lol really? That's all it took? He needs to be able to take criticism

@@crazytrain7721 yup that's all it took

@@darkroninmarvel and he said the other day on twitter that he doesn't want people to think he can't take criticism lol. Not a fan of mr. Druckman as a human being tbh

Druckmann is really one of the game developers I have the least respect for. He (figuratively) spit in the face of fans and people who didn't like his work, and can't take criticism at all. He's a grown man acting like a child.

Really? Attacking an unconscious young boy who stopped your girlfriend from getting her throat slit is justified? Yikes 😬

You mean the boy that saved dina and ellie's life?? no your point makes 0 sense. Not to mention he's a child. Killing a child who saved you and your girlfriend's life is 100% not justfied.

@@nam9085 But look at it from Ellie's perspective; you've got this kid running around with the person who killed her father figure and she witnesses him attacking your friends (Tommy & Dinna) Ellies not gonna give a fuck that its a child at that point. Plus she would of had to of killed Lev if she went through with killing Abbie, End the cycle make sure no ones going to come after you or yours.

@@nam9085 kinda like it made no sense for Abbie to kill Joel after he saved her, life but go off.

​@@PhillW2406 im not justifying abby killing joel, its wrong and effed up but i cant sit here like you justifying ones actions and leaving the other. Abby is the one that killed joel not lev, its not the same as joel saving abby AT ALL. i understand ellie but that doesnt mean her actions are justified and that she should do it and that lev, A CHILD, SHOULDNT be stabbed to death when had no part in killing joel and saves dina and ellie's life. your point makes 0 sense

I agree. I also agree that violence is generally a both sides thing. Personally, however, b'coz Abbie killed Jo for a weak reason, revenge isn't justified but we can't let her get away with that. And letting Ellie live is out of character if she wanted revenge so bad. I sympathize with Abbie more, but from a logically just perspective, I don't agree with vengeance but I'm totally with Ellie.

@@marshmallowvampire8503 Abby had a weak reason? Abby had a stronger reason than Ellie for revenge because Joel did not only kill her father (and countless other Fireflies) but also robbed humanity of the chance to develop a vaccine against the spores which would have saved countless people.

@@marshmallowvampire8503 I had a similar response at first but, for me, the farm scene with Ellie really sold me on Abbie's character. Seeing how devestated and traumatized Ellie was really allowed me to see and sympathize with the way Abbie had been living for the last four years and really connect with that pain. Admittedly, I'd already been sympathetic to her but for me that scene really drove home what drove Abbie to seeking out Joel like that.

@@mayeastrise Granted, my reasoning is in large part based upon a lore audio file you find in TLOU 1. Abby's dad takes a spinal tap and finds traces of Ellie's mutant, symbiotic fungus. He doesn't bother to simply have her cerebrospinal fluid tapped steadily over time, no. He decides to ultimately and irreversibly rip open her brain cavity (in a visibly dirty, unclean room) to expose the source of the spores, seeing if he can gather enough data and experiment in a single go, in order to make a full vaccine that he has very little infrastructure available to manufacture. It just seemed like he either horribly broke his Hippocratic Oath, or the writers didn't do their due diligence in laying out how the mechanical, logical conclusion of the surgery would have completed.

@@josephwilliams1251 thing is abby only stops cause of others never cause of her own humanity but has the audacity to say and the things she does not to mention its one thing I think if she went in and killed joel or as ellie was there just knocked her out so she didn't need to see that but to force someone else some close to another to see that its to much and it wasn't until the very end after she got tortured for god knows how long were she is barely all there that she is more humane so yeah can't sympathize with her hell ellie did show she regretted what she did abby after doing what she did slept a bit better much more better after she helped the seraphit so yeah maybe she could have shown she knew what she forced ellie to experience what she roped her friends in to doing with her a bit was wrong but again no we don't see that really tell she experience ungodly horrific torture hell she was all for killing dee after ellie said she was pregnant but the seraphit with her (sorry bad at remembering the characters names and correct spelling) got her to stop she wouldn't have stopped you could argue same with ellie at the end buuuut ellie was doing that based on her own views not something someone said abby. So honestly in total the game was good but I can't see abby nor half of her friends anything good the revealed in the pain maybe to justify it for themselves but that up to us to assume not see mot even clearly hinted at.

IMHO the best example of the cycle of violence story archetype, I've yet to see it topped!

Over the course of her journey to the Fireflies, Ellie’s life was under constant threat. She had too many close brushes with death and yet she still pressed forward. It was a suicide mission to begin with. After the giraffe moment, Joel asked Ellie if she wanted to turn back. She said that she couldn’t. Not after everything that they went through and that she has done. She told him that they’d go wherever he wanted for his benefit and to give herself some reassurance. You’re right. She wanted to live. Just not at the price of others. I assume you played the first game. It is incredibly surprising how you seemed to misunderstand your traveling companion, Ellie, on such a fundamental level. She would constantly put her life at risk (e.g. jumping down from the truck to stick with Joel after Sam and Henry ditch them) to protect others. She constantly riskS her life for a chance at a cure. That is who she was as a person. Marlene told Joel that this is what Ellie would have wanted, too. Judging by his face and lack of answer from what she said, he knew this to be true. You saw the Fireflies as the “bad guys,” because you were assuming the narrow perspective of Joel. Both Joel and the player have no attachment to the Fireflies. They have an attachment to Ellie. That’s why it was so easy to side with Joel’s decision. This bias is what the second game exposes.

@@genericwhiteguy2910 Ya, she almost died a couple of times. Your point? So did Joel. So did Bill. A lot of people almost die in that world because it's the apocalypse. It's the type of world they live it, therefore have to adapt to it. And unlike a lot of the middle aged people (like Joel) and older, Ellie only knows that world because she was born after the world went to shit. She doesn't know any other life, so to her, the world is normal and supposed to be filled with constant danger, fear and survival. She may have learned about the "old life", but she doesn't know it. She hasn't lived through it like older people did. So again, the apocalypse is her normal. lol so to you, Ellie wanting to stick with Joel out of love and loyalty is exactly the same thing as her be ~willing to die for the greater good?~ She didn't do it to "protect others", she did it only for Joel, and to be by Joel' s side because she loved him and/or didn't want to be alone (since she said that being alone was her biggest fear, if you didn't know that). "She constantly riskS her life for a chance at a cure. That is who she was as a person" ......You do realize that Ellie HERSELF was the cure, right? If she REALLY cared about the greater good then she wouldn't have constantly put her life in danger (especially when she rode off by herself outside the walls of Jackson only cause she was mad at Joel, which was incredibly stupid and selfish, which Joel was right to point out). "Marlene told Joel that this is what Ellie would have wanted, too. Judging by his face and lack of answer from what she said, he knew this to be true. " First of all, that wasn't Marlene's choice to make. It was Ellie's. If she REALLY cared about Ellie and exclaimed to Joel that that's what "she would want", Marlene would have simply woke her up and asked her, since apparently she already knew what the answer would be so you say. Simple, right? That's all she had to do. So why not wake her up then? Fact of the matter is she didn't exactly know what Ellie would have said. Second of all, you can't say what Joel was actually thinking because it's not canon that he agreed with her. He just didn't say anything. That's it. You yourself can't determine what he was thinking. Joel was actually the one to fight for Ellie's choice. Not Marlene. She made the decision FOR Ellie (and tried to force Joel to do the same). All Joel was doing was saving Ellie's life in case she didn't want to die. Your personal headcanon of what he thought in that moment isn't the same thing as canon. "You saw the Fireflies as the “bad guys,” because you were assuming the narrow perspective of Joel". It's not the "narrow perspective of Joel", It's what was ACTUALLY shown through gameplay and cut scenes of what the The Fireflies were REALLY LIKE when Joel and Ellie met them at the end of their journey (technically Joel was the only one to meet them, since you know, they purposefully put Ellie to sleep so they could kill her without asking her). All the proof of them being horrible is in the first game (maybe you should play it again since you obviously forgot all the important and key moments in it). The second game is all about retconning what actually happened in the first game so Druckmann can go about his revenge fetish and torturing Joel that he tried to do in the first game but was shut down by Bruce Straley (It's actually true look it up, instead of spouting nonsense again).

@@Terriblegam2r You can't really argue with the constructed realities of people. It's insane how many free passes people give to the retcons.

@@Ravi9A these people clearly dgaf about continuity or already established plot structure and story line.They need to seriously raise their standards bar from off the dirt.

Yeah, in fact Abby tortured Joel for so long that she got got hot and had to remove some clothes when it's a snowstorm outside

Soak the stain in cold water as quickly as possible. If the stain is super fresh, place it under cold running water to flush out as much of the blood as possible. If fresh, sponge the stain with hydrogen peroxide or rub bar soap into the stain and scrub by hand in cold water.

@@sionetupou437 lmao

I never understood what people meant when they said revenge isn’t gonna make things better? When it kind of does? Either way you suffer, so why not suffer with some good old revenge? Your fckd either way. The illusion of morality is a funny thing.

@Arian msn I am convinced that people throw around "Revenge bad" as a platitude without understanding it.

Ellie wasn't doing it to give abby a fighting chance. She was doing it to inflict as much pain as possible, the literal exact thing you are calling "disgusting and wrong" when Abby does it. The ENTIRE POINT of the game is that they do the exact same things and Abby grows from it and Ellie DOESN'T.

The plot doesn't "want" anything. You're projecting an invisible enemy onto the story. Just take the plot as it is instead of trying to interpret it as an attack on your ego. Joel killed Abby's dad, so now Abby wants to kill Joel. That's literally it. She doesn't give a shit about the vaccine, or Ellie, or any of it. She never mentions any of that. She tortures Joel to death because *she's* been emotionally tortured for years and this is her vengeance.

Yeah Abby fucking sucks. I understand what the game is trying to say “revenge bad” though.

Ambiguity? The first game was pretty clear that Joel was one Bad Selfish fucker for what he did. But he loved his daughter.

@@zaczane says you. To me the first game made pretty clear that the Fireflies were evil mofos from the start and were willing to commit child murder to further their own agenda, and Joel was fully justified in doing what he did. The fact that there was divisiveness in what Joel did shows that the ambiguity was real

@@simpsonman956 I suppose I can see your point. It must be my Utilitarian view that could be Tinting my memory of the play through. So if you’ve played it more recently than I have(which is likely) you’d have a clearer picture to remember from.

I genuinely don't know how you got that impression. Joel and Ellie came off as flawed people trying to do right by the people they care about. Same as Abby. Both Abby and Ellie changed for the better by the end, you know. And the Santa Barbara and farmhouse bits are more than a year after Joel's death, not a few weeks. Sorry, but did you just not pay attention or what?

Didn't JOel torture and kill in the same way?

@@AlphaPlayer9000 did Joel force someone that cared about them watch?

@@magoschonkers711 ...yes? I mean he did kill everyone else after

If the story had been from Abbys point of view all along would you be so upset? ;)

@@timfrank7461 Yes

What's the point of creating art if it is not the reflection of what is "real" to you at the moment of creation. Would you have preferred Naughty Dogs to be slave to the audience's expectations, I'd say this is more dishonest. It's not like The Last Jedi where some external creator goes in an established franchise and mess it up. They've created TLoU they can do whatever the fuck they want with it, even if we don't like it. On that aspect I'll always defend a creator. If George Lucas made the Last Jedi I'd defend his right to do whatever he wants and the authenticity of what he delivered.

@@grandsome1 fuck what the creator wants, I care about stuff actually being good. Miss me with that "arTisTiC inTegriTy" bullshit, how about these creators go back to 9th grade English class and learn the basics of a story structure from scratch and work on THAT integrity. Creating a consistent tone, consistent themes, and remaining faithful to the story you've told requires more integrity then "I'll just shit out whatever I feel like because I'm an Artiste™ and this is how I feel in the Moment™!" If you'd defend a creator no matter how off the wall bonkers they take an established story, you're not a Big Thinker, you're just a Big Fan, and objectivity and constructive criticism are not skills that you possess.

Okay? Why is that a problem?

@@krasmasov6852 Technically nothing. It’s a messy, unsatisfying story arch, and most audiences, especially gamers, aren’t going to enjoy trying to play the game the way you hooked them in the beginning (death of Joel and the revenge arch) and then constantly having their nose rubbed in the message of “revenge is bad.” And in the end, to entirely rob the player of agency and force them to end the game the way the creator chose? This isn’t a game, it’s a book that has pretty graphics and some shooty bang bang. This story would be fine for a book, where the audience already knows the outcome is set in stone. That’s why, like it or not, The Last of Us 2 will probably go down as wasted potential. And for what? The message of “revenge is bad.” Slow loud clap. Congrats, hope it was worth it. I’m sure this game will go down in history for its DEEP meaningful plot and not for the memes of absolutely no one wanting to play as Abbey at any point in the game.

All of her friends died, her love interest died, her dad died, she lost a lot of everything?

facts

part 2 was like playing spec ops the line again. its commentary kinda falls flat due to the medium its portrayed in and the fact that little was done to shake up its formula, and yet the narrative has such a powerful quality to it that itll be talked about forever.

When did he murder anyone in the game? All I can remember is self-defence.

@@TheRedHaze3 Reminding people the doctor pulled a knife on Joel in his odd desire to rush the murder of Ellie kinda undermines the whole "Joel deserved it" angle. It's just easier to ignore that so it's more black and white. Y'know, like what the sequel does!

@@crazyinsane500 the doctor probably heard all the gunshots and alarms. Yes. I too find it strange that he pulled a knife on the gunman mowing through his militia group with the intent to stop the procedure, the very procedure he was in charge of. I can tell that you think the fireflies were in the wrong because you're so in Joel's corner, but maybe... just maybe... Joel killing the doctors in order to save Ellie, preventing the cure, and then lying to her about it is what made the ending of that game the incredible gut punch it is? No, we have smooth brains saying "well we have bad people on BOTH sides" and "who knows if they were actually going to make a cure?!", totally undermining the impact of the first game's ending. Lol I'm sorry, I just reread your comment. You seriously think that Joel now somehow doesn't deserve some form of retribution because...the doctor pulled a knife on him. An armed man rushes in to your room, after killing countless people. You pull a knife to defend yourself and suddenly, you are as guilty as he is. Wow. Just wow. The reason why this series resonated with me was BECAUSE the doctor was in the right. Sacrifice the few to save the many. That's the trope that was subverted. Joel sacrificed the many to save the few WHILE STILL being a great protagonist. Not something you see very often.

nicely put

This is one person's perspective on the story, not the be all end all.

@@modernmobster and I didn't say it was. But the thoroughness and discussion of critical editorial moments gives me better insight. What exactly was your goal in commenting this?

Im sorry but why are you watching a full spoiler video of a game you havent experienced and try to form opinions by listening to other people's analysis? You've basically robbed yourself of one of the most interesting and emotionally fluctuating cinematic experience of this industry. If you think you've understood this game without actually playing for 25 hours, you are deluding yourself. Not even watching a lets play is comparable. This is not a usual story based game. Interactivity is essential.

@@Arda-dq4rt because I have no desire to ever play the game because it does not look like a GAME I would enjoy. The story looks quite interesting tho.

@Harry Paul Not really, because joel wouldnt want that of her. His whole reason for saving her and damning the world, and saying he'd do it again. Is because he's a father, no parent would want this for their child. Though entirely wrong for what he did, All joel wanted of Ellie is to live a happy life. for which she finally realized in that moment. The sad part is that its just a lesson that comes to late to the character.

@Harry Paul 1, But yet she's killing in his name, even going as far as wearing his jacket when seeking revenge, like literally carrying his ghost with her. She even tries to justify her mind set in the start of the game by saying, this is what joel would do. But yet she cant see its not what he would want of her. The same way abby's father wouldnt want her to kill on his behalf. because it gets them both nowhere. She claiming justice for joel, while betraying his wishes. 2, Yea he did damn the world, he robbed it of a future, prevent others from not being infected, which lead to no progression. Thats why in the game, in flash backs of story we see constant victims to the infection. and how their lives could have been save. Men, Women and even Children.

@@darryljack6612 actually, Joel was the only one who had justification to kill anyone which is why this whole story is laughable. It's not even good at saying vengeance is cyclical and the writers have even talked about wanting people to take to Abby. I think the writers think Abby is morally justified and Ellie isn't. That's why it's bad

@@jourdinthedragon What you think is almost certainly wrong.

​@@jourdinthedragon ? Joel murdered so many people, killed a woman who begged for her life, and a man who could have saved humanity from the infection. Knowing its what ellie would have wanted, as she explains when telling about her and her friend in part 1. Joel then lies to Ellie for 2 whole year and maybe even more, if given the chance. Joel didnt save ellie for ellie. He save ellie for himself. Thats not justification, not even close. Also the writers dont openly provide condemnation or condom either of the two lead characters actions. Nor show any proof of it. Remember their stories are the same at their core. Its up to the player to decide and walk through this journey

What's contradicted? What are you talking about?

@@jameslanier2510 If the whole point of the game was 'Revenge bad' & 'Karma is a bxtch' then Ellie should've stayed with Dina on the farm while Abby starved to death on the crucifix. The whole final act was a big fxck you to the player.

@@janeshepard9549 That's not what the game is about, but I don't understand your reasoning here regardless.

Well said, Im getting tired of defending my stance of “lazy writing” against those who just presume I hate Abby or don’t grasp the emotional depth the story was aiming for smh

Again, if you care about plot holes this much that means the story just didn't grab you. If it did you wouldn't care about any of this. Having the series of events which make up the story be logical or realistic doesn't have anything to do with it's quality, its simply an artistic choice. The only way for the story to be lazy, is for it to be plagiarized.

Genya Kozlov Plagiarism is the only form of lazy writing? Illogical Plot holes doesn’t affect quality? Sounds like a lot of excuses to me

I hope you, too, have completely random and irrelevant visions so you will arbitrarily forgive people who actually don't deserve it, all way after the damage to you and your life has been done anyway. No, wait, it's the opposite of that which I hope for you, like actually reflecting on your actions and friends who actually try to stop you from self-destruction.

After playing TLOU 2, I didn't even bother to replay TLOU 1 again. I just can't enjoy it anymore. So yeahh, thank you Naughty Dog

i enjoyed it. but yes you speak for all of us and everyone who disagrees with you is a liar.

@@nonuvurbeeznus795 You sound triggered over my opinion. That's kinda sad

How in the world did this spit on the first game in any way? What in the world are you talking about?

The first one: Because human beings aren't static. The second one: If we all only made logical choices, humanity wouldn't be this fucked up. To expand on both: Joel was distant, cold and cautious when he literally needed it to survive. After living in a relatively safe society for a long time, his personality adapted to it. It's.... pretty basic to understand. And when in high stress situations, of course someone will threaten you. We've both, you and I, probably threatened to kill or beat people when in a fight. Abby let her go because she doesn't get off on killing people, she only wanted revenge on this one douchebag that killed her father. She probably also doubted anybody would go to the same extents she did, training and obsessing over revenge.

@@sacta bullshit he was a surviver for more than 20 years why he would lose all of the survivel instinct this doesnt make any sense

@@KamusariHR Context, buddy, context. It's important to keep context in mind. Was he in a established settlement, surrounded by other people for those 20 years? Or on his own? think of how military vets often have trouble adapting back to civilian life, especially if they suffer PTSD: Joel's mindset works great if you are forced to make it on your own (even though it is mentally taxing and unhealthy long term), but it wouldn't allow him to 'work' in a settlement. He'd naturally adapt over time and 'soften up'. These are facts. Again, characters, like people, shouldn't be static.

I was impressed the game did so much work at making Ellie unlikeable. But I was more impressed they did so by reminding us of how toxic Joel was as a father figure by giving him credit for every horrible thing she does and says (especially following a scene where Joel shuts Ellie's concerns down with a scene where Ellie shuts Dina's concerns down using his exact words).