The LAST Rust Drama 

0 days since last Rust drama

there was a time when we said politics and programming/science should stay seperated. In the present day, with tech twitter, there's been a movement that the two should come together and it's foolish for them to be seperated hence... 😂😂

It gets more coverage people because like the language.

@@ea_naseer Politics and programming are only separated when the ones in charge of the organization care more about the tech than they do about politics.

Java lawsuits:

Cannot borrow arguments as mutable because it also borrowed is immutable

@@jakubgiesler6150your argument is so simultaneously unhelpful and technically correct that I’m surprised it’s not posted on the Rust forum

@@jakubgiesler6150 Not a problem, most of them clone() another opinion anyway.

we "the community" (tm) agree with you

​@@carlpittengeryou didn't even use a period.

@@pau1phi11ips lol it's only if you're writing serious prose, then you put the period after the closing quotation mark; you don't write with strong diction when texting

​@@carlpittenger wh, okay first, a youtube comment isn't "texting", second, how tf are you going to pull the "it's casual conversation, you don't need to follow strict syntactical rules" arugment, and then deadass use a semicolon? I'm 100% all for more people using semicolons but it's a pretty disjointed argument to say that "it's a different form of communication with less strict grammar/syntax, here's a casual semicolon". The reality is the only reason the punctuation before the semicolon rule took over was because it was easier, not because it was "more correct". It's a bit like how everyone says PEMDAS, but everyone uses PEJMDAS*. It's easier to hand-write if the punctuation comes before the quotes since there isn't as much of a back-and-forth. This, of course, doesn't apply when using a keyboard, so all that "writing punctuation a bit like this," does is make it more confusing to read since you're quoting something that wasn't actually said or is even representative of what might have been said. A quote is interpreted in isolation, and punctuation isn't a unary operator; it's designed to link distinct segments. So, if you interpret a quote in isolation, (as all quotes are) and you end it with a piece of punctuation that exists to link two things it's syntactically invalid. It's a bit like saying func(5+). Now, if that *_is_* noticably more convenient then fine, it's minor enough and most people will get your meaning so it's not a big issue, but that doesn't make it correct within the rules you've set out. It's a bit like -> in programming. (which I also despise because it's unclear and annoyingly unnecessary, but it's a similar concept that most people seem fine with. so I'll just take the L on that one... for now...) *J meaning juxtaposition, i.e. 5(8) = 40; It's also called implicit multiplication depending on who you ask. This rule is so steadfast and followed that even when the first few books were begining to rigidly define an order of operations a lot of them SAID they followed PEMDAS, but actually followed PEJMDAS if you looked at their equations and their answers. This I'd argue actually is meaningfully useful since it's nearly impossible to misinterpret it's use is so widespread and it reduces mental operator overload trying to parse out complicated expresions.

​@@pau1phi11ipswell acktschuyually...

Ya that’s how most of these things are. Saw that with all the corporate social activistism too lol

When you get 3 people in a room, it turns into a government. Every. Time.

It's trying to break into some sense of mainstream popularity with this noise. This is desperate.

Yep, he's being cancelled. It's a shame ThePhd was treated in a bad way (in part dtolnay's fault from what I understand) and the best thing would be if these people could hash it out and ThePhd somehow returns. Now it seems rather that dtolnay might be forced out of the community as well. How short-sighted can people be? Half the ecosystem is written by the guy. Serde is a top 5 reason why I got so excited about Rust.

You are reading a random opinion written by a rando (probably college student, judging from the juvenile tone). The "self-appointed ambassador" thing should have been the red flag where we stopped reading. In fact the real worry is that people (as seen here in the comments) are somehow thinking this rando REALLY IS the ambassador for anything.

We delegate too much power to random and often toxic commenters on Twitter/Reddit. Some people worship the upvote counter, and others have children to feed. Democracy isn't complete fascism, so the opinions of others are only just that. Quit victimizing him, as he needs to grow a set and start making decisions! He's not a celebrity, so wtf is this comment about being cancelled? Is that all people register?

Because in the internets the opinions of a professor and a kid become equally important somehow.

I agree, super disrespectful and idiotic. It reduces my faith in the world to see anyone alienate others like this.

I thought the inventor of docker said docker wouldn't have happened if wasm with isolation existed?

@@shaftymaze Docker is 10 years old, so a runtime written 4 years ago doesn't have any effect on it.

@@shaftymaze not to mention, said runtime has specific purpose. Most proc macros don't need any sort of IO, be it file or network.

​@@SaHaRaSquadThat's not what they said. They said "IF" isolated wasm had existed 10 years ago, they wouldn't have made docker.

@@gljames24 Yes, so why are you repeating it as if I misunderstood something?

Yeah someone who decides that one of the most productive contributors doesn't have a good track record due to one well-intentioned mistake shouldn't ever get a position of power beyond flushing a toilet.

Put that damn period inside the "quotation marks!"

@@well.8395 "No"!!!

@@well.8395you know some countries aren’t the US right?

@@Satook Someone doesn't understands the sarcasm.

This might actually be true

That's your number one? Ignore the angry mob. They're sitting in a dark corner of a room going bald over literally nothing.

@@BeamMonsterZeus How would you know what that feels like? Have you ever done anything remarkable that an angry mob would go after you? If not, it's disingenuous for you to say "oh just do this"

I have no horse in this race since I don't really have a strong opinion, however I don't believe that someone should be immune from criticism (no matter how inane) simply because they are powerful/influential

This comment should be pinned

this comment should be double-triple pinned

alonely0 is a he/they. That's all you need to know.

"autistic computer nerd" weird that you would put that in quotes, do you think autism is not real or do the opinions of autistic nerds don't matter?

You eat ONE BABY

@@ChungusTheLargeLOL...

@@ChungusTheLarge Except when these people get caught abusing kids that gets immediately memory holed. It's only when you challenge the power structure or make it easy for someone to make an irrelevant power play that you get rail roaded. The rust community is either mentally ill, or run by people involved with demons. I don't know which is more likely at this point.

@@VACatholic Switch to Holy C?

@@ChungusTheLarge I've never been a rust fan, but I would just use a language and not get caught up in the so-called "community". These people neither know nor care about each other. It's all fake.

%s/./I have a giant ego/g

"Self-proclaimed community ambassador" says everything

Haha

Rust having unsafe memory management built-in: You supposed to destroy the Sith, not join them.

zig is better for writing highly-optimized performant software. I hate languages that make important technical decisions on behalf of me and do things automatically.

Hell yes. Great comment

Or at the very least present the proper context to make this argument.

@@disguysn That is dangerously close to strawmanning

@@BeamMonsterZeus I call it "the psychogenetic fallacy": your argument is wrong because of what you were really thinking or feeling when you said it.

have you seen his repo? holy shit i couldnt stop laughing i swear to god. He says he's from catalonia, and being from spain i can tell you i know very well his kind of people. But what could we expect from the self proclaimed ambassador of the rust community who supposedly wants to invent his own networking protocol, which has no existing code yet, but according to his paper actually relies on TCP/IP (obviously.....) so its just a custom encryption system that nobody could really care less for? Seriously, i dont even know why people take this individual seriously anymore.

I read a comment, all that it said was 'I hate drama, idc about this'. I belive them.

​@@bluewave3050Don't worry Rust can easily be forked and continued by the community.

How is it a dumpster fire? Because some random people on twitter and some forums create some drama to get themselves in the spotlight?

​@@bluewave3050I'm a year in, still learning things but also way *way* happier with my results than I was with C (for embedded, 35 years) and now even surpassing my (25 years) Python development productivity. It was a tough learning curve but I don't regret it for moment. And the Rust "drama" is mostly ignorable.

Rust is the best training wheels in learning how to code well. Then you could transfer those skills onto a relevant, employable language like C++

@@weirdo911aw there's also no reason those training wheels can be equipped with boosters

Like every project run by literal commies, the actually good productive people are eventually chased away or leave on their own.

Funny... they can make amazing programs and yet unable to leverage that power for intercommunication

@@bluedark7724 They can create social media but can't be social over any medium. lol.

It's not that they're horrible at social interactions. It's that they know the best way to get power in a social action is to claim victimhood, and demand reparations. When that becomes the norm, the demons come out to play.

To be frank, STEM people are all hard-to-socialize introverts. Some express it differently, some explosively. And all the extroverts go to business school 😅

Maybe write in both because its a toss up.

I actually agree. So much bullshit drama or bad decisions of many members of linux community was shutdown by Linus Torvalds. Someone like Linus Torvalds is needed.

I think the key here is that languages or frameworks can start out at the individual level, but should also adapt to the growing community needs by stepping down with institutions in place so that their invention outlives their inventors. DHH has always been the Rails' BDFL and many popular contributors moved on to other languages/frameworks in part because of it. e.g. Rust, Go, Elixir A good example of this kind of transition would be the original source of the BDFL title: Guido Van Rossum (Python). He stepped down of his BDFL title with no successor in favor of the Python Software Foundation.

And DHH being an often disagreeable BDFL had a side-effect of Rails not progressing as fast as it could've because of the exodus of both top contributors and in the core team members. Even Laravel, a framework heavily inspired by Rails, has outpaced Rails a bit in terms of feature set. In order for a BDFL setup to really work, the "benevolent" part often has to stay in place, else a fork or an exodus could happen.

@@markmywords3817 Python: a mature language with mature specs. Rust: a young language that is missing a lot of standard features. Turbo/Rails/DHH-stuff: DHH stuff that is just an option among others.

democracy is the death of greatness

I am genuinely trying here

​@@ThePrimeTimeagen its genuinely noticed. I love Rust but its kind of (incredibly) easy to poke fun at recently. For how logical one might expect FOSS and engineers to be, we are desperately, painfully, blazingly-lacking in level-headedness sometimes.

he is literally trying to trivialize the issue and mint it for views and attention. LOL. giving tolnay the benefit of the doubt when he didn't come forward and apologize when everyone was apologizing 3 months ago (triplet, griffin, conf organizers, mara, etc) is absurd. he only made this gist after someone revealed this guy's name, if he actually felt bad about it he would have apologized right away.

@@fredrickdemello2260 Why would dtolnay apologize at the beginning when he wasn't even part of the RustConf organization? He just voiced an opinion but everyone makes it seem like he himself pulled the plug on the keynote.

agreed lmao

Yayayaya

Are the majority of people actually using Rust just regular people with zero interest in this stuff? Or is this kind of stuff enough to stop it getting more uptake?

@@Kane0123 the endless drama behind Rust makes me extremely hesitant to recommend it’s adoption for any project within my company, despite the technical benefits it may provide. Our products have very long maintenance cycles and this sort of instability within the ecosystem makes the idea of maintaining (and growing) a project in it for a decade too risky.

​@@Kane0123 been using rust daily for just about longer than a year now. great language. highly recommend. i don't care about the foundation, i just care about the language. i follow the news about the language; aside from the entertainment we get from their interactions, they are just wasting time with all this bs. compile time is really important and it deserves much more time spent on improving it. would be cool if d.t. streams his talk on twitch+youtube. dont need a convention to do a talk

it's not the dorks. It's mostly the pronoun brigade with blue and purple hair who have infiltrated the upper echelons of the Rust foundation and moderation team.

Quote from the dude himself in the thread after he got roasted multiple times "the thing is, in a week I won't have time in my life to deal with this crap, and it's not like I have that much time now. I've done my part, which was raising my points; thus, I'll see myself out, so I'm not the discussion topic anymore. Goodbye y'all. Do it right." IMO he was just trolling the whole way and got bored after.

nice

Agree 💯 . Double down and tell them to go f**k themselves.

This is the way.

Uhh, what? Nobody said anything like that at any point, let alone in this video, as far as I can tell.

@@SimonBuchanNz it’s alluded to in the article by “nicely” forcing someone to give up their work to the foundation.

@@FrankJonen but is alonely0 the foundation? Prime kinda skipped over who they even were, and I don't remember them from my time on IRLO (which I assume this is on)

@@SimonBuchanNz hence my comment. If it happens, that’s it for Rust’s future.

@@SimonBuchanNz alonely0's repo has a javascript password generator and a paper proposing "a new networking protocol" but no code, i think i dont need to explain further why is it that you dont know who alonely0 is. Because they are nobody. They just felt big for some reason and went and was bold enough to claim that they are some kind of community ambassador and spew a bunch of nonsense. He even has a crate that is a simple array wrapper that is 90% comments in the code and he says that it will probably get into the core. Which as far as i know, is not something that ever happened. I dont even know why anyone would even want that in the core. So yeah, there is a good reason you have not heard of this person.

lmfao

You should learn a more established language like C/C++/Py/JS/Java/C# for your employment's sake. Companies have most of their years of legacy code in those languages and looking to hire devs to work on those the most. C was actually developed in structured academia by disciplined computer scientists to satisfy engineering specs and quality and established the industry. Nearly every language is derived from or backed in C/C++ or tries to do the same things better like Rust. Rust was a pet project that is growing into an unmanageable monster from what I see. If you are a student, first think about the types of things you want to program for your career and focus on those industries preferred languages. Rust IMO is a very poor choice as a first language since it can stump even senior devs that program in multiple languages and almost no companies have adopted it for anything consequential. I would say Python is a better starter language since it was originally made to teach programming and will remain useful as a secondary language and allow fast prototyping of ideas.

A new one happened, at the time of writing, about 3 hours ago

​@@actualFixWhat is it this time?

c++4life

great decision by management

A gradual refactor to modern C++ with unit tests is probably more feasible that a full rewrite from zero in a new language.

​@@h2_ More like a decision based on gut feeling. The reality is that Rust won't be allowed to fail like that as major tech giants like MS, Google, Amazon etc already ship Rust software and invest in it. This is just online drama that will end as soon as the whiners get distracted by something else on Twitter.

Your management is stupid. It's in the windows and Linux kernels, rust isn't going anywhere.

@@SaHaRaSquadIf they invested more into the Rust Project and not the Rust Foundation there probably wouldn’t be all this drama in the first place lol.

Yep, that's an appropriate title.

Waiting for nightly rust drama.

Umm, last can also mean previous. Eg. last night, last September, last year

Go is a pragmatic language created by a company to solve their problems, Rust is an elegant language trying to do things the correct way. Neither is wrong by themselves but it seems those aspects are reflected in the communities.

Myers Briggs is complete nonsense though.

It wasn't exactly as binary as "do you want shorter build times or not" - the complaints were about security, related regulatory requirements, and making such a big change in a patch(?) version, especially without any opt out. Binary cargo payloads are nothing new: plenty of crates have either opt in or out out binary crates.

Goals

It's pretty on brand -- 90% of Rust users are either mentally ill or terminally online

Same. I kept hearing people say you have to check out Rust because it's awesome with a vibrant community with support. Maybe it's bad luck but most of my encounters I just saw drama and toxic people. The foundation sounds just as dysfunctional.

The language is great. The governance and certain characters leave less to be desired.

Same, won't be "investing" my time on this one, only to have the rug pulled from under me in the future

I saw it early on. They were filled with purple-haired insufferable people.

As far as I can tell, being active on both the user and internal forums and using the language and all these crates... this is all a bunch of babies complaining that have no impact on the actual language. The only actual impact here is that your builds could have been a little faster.

I swear people who say shit like this haven't even seen code outside of youtube videos. Boohoo over the drama, jesus christ...

I have experienced exactly this. I remember a few years ago I was super excited to write Rust, I wanted to make a Vulkan game engine written in Rust. I then discovered AI and came back to that Rust idea for a while only to find conversations infested with zealots, crappy drama, rewrite-everything-in-rust-syndrome, "yOu aRe sTuPiD iF yOu uSe C++", and now every time I think about Rust the first thing that comes to mind is the cancerous community and the weird videos/tutorials surrounding it. Man, I just want a serious professional group of people I can rely on, which should be essential for something as important as Rust, but oh well.

As cool as serde is, it could be rebuilt from scratch in a couple of weeks without reference to the original source. Heck, you could get a simple version in a day. Nobody's *actually* being held hostage here, even without it being under an OSI license.

​@@SimonBuchanNzbuild yes could they maintain it with out is becoming a cluster Idk.

Agreed. His "forceful skepticism" seems a little sus.

Very much the exception, she also has a very good team around her. The willingness to not compete with but rather leap frog intel was important to. (Lots of really smart moves made that make more sense looking back then at the time.)

Oh buddy, do I have a story to tell you.

Rust: drama Python: hold my beer

@@oserodal2702 Tell us grandpa

its doesnt stop you to code in rust tho.

@@jakubgiesler6150 Just imagine one in the the mid 30's learning to code beyond TI-basic from 20 years ago on TI83+. Now not only I can code bugs, I can also code drama imagine "You use that crate from that dickhead therefore you're a dickhead too.".

Lol so true

Sure you have, you just need to dig a bit

Nah, they just busy managing (broken) dependency paths. (Source: tried C# once, confused as heck with data/code flow and form magic)

lol Microsoft itself is drama hahaha