The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks' dungeon design | Boss Keys 

Hey Scott - this is a great comment. I think I could have definitely done a better job of explaining this point myself, in the videos. And I will try to, next video. Now how do I pin a comment...

It's now or never, since the next video will tackle the most controversial game. If there is one video where the point you are trying to make should be clear, it's the next one.

Well that's kind of the question - because Brown's implicit thesis has always been that "dungeons" are defined as holistic, discrete experiences. If a particular kind of framing and puzzle identity contributes to a holistic, discrete experience, doesn't that accomplish a "dungeon"? Regardless of whether it follows the literal, exploration paradigm? Moreover, if you're exploring the ideaspace by interpreting map marks to find how those marks translate to literal game space via puzzles - isn't that exploration? I mean, literally, isn't this very video series a kind of exploration? This can be extended to other paradigms: Zelda combat is Zelda combat because it is a form of a puzzle - the focus isn't on reaction or dexterity (as it is in character action games), it's on discovering how to beat an enemy, "solving" its puzzle. Ocarina had bad dungeons because the "puzzles" were traditional game physics puzzles formed poorly - I'd argue that these puzzles are an attempt to introduce puzzling to information and, in fact, to the very interaction of information and game space itself, (like what you might find in adventure-platforming games). Again, though, if we see this as part of a design philosophy that begins with Link to the Past's time-jumping mechanics and follows through to Breath of the Wild's open-world areas, I'd argue that the "dungeon" is defined by the beginning and end of the puzzle, usually climaxing in a boss fight. So, dungeons that interact across time are part of the same meta-dungeon and information about the dungeon becomes part of the dungeon's logic (rather than logic about engine physics or lore or whatever). In the games in this video, even, the map literally ceases to be an object you collect and exists solely as an aspect of the dungeon itself. This is an extension of Brown's thesis which describes dungeons as holistic and mechanically-driven. If the new paradigm of perfect information harmonizes with the companion paradigm and culminates in a "useful, cross-dungeon companion" mechanic, that seems relevant to the dungeon's character, the same way as riding bubbles or getting blown by fans does. I'm not saying that the new paradigms don't introduce their own hosts of problems, but there seems to be a crucial line of design that explains this game's and subsequent title's decisions, going unexamined. It is exploration/mental-spacial navigation being iterated through new mechanics, though, perhaps not as expertly as the mechanics they had been refining for over a decade, by this point..

Exploration is definitely *the* defining aspect of the series, but there are many ways to go about it. All the spacial-reasoning in the world in dungeons won't help much if the overworld is linear, and vice versa.

I obviously can't speak for Mark Brown, though he does seem to be making it clearer that he feels a "well-designed Zelda dungeon" follows certain characteristics that I'm not sure I 100% agree with myself regarding general maze navigation skills. Regardless of whether it's an incomplete/insufficient study of what makes the dungeon what it is or even if it makes for a "good"/"bad" dungeon, the type of framing informs in a meaningful and arguably necessary way to show how Zelda dungeons have been designed, and I find it fascinating to see how the "level design" of a dungeon has changed over the games. Like most of his videos, even when I disagreed with certain points, I've found them valuable and insightful and worthwhile all the same.

Same thing for me. It was my first experience with an actual Full fledged Zelda game. I remember my cousin had Ocarina of Time, and he gave me the controller when he was reaching the top of Ganon's castle so I had a small experience, but I was only five years old, and it was only for five minutes, so I don't count that. After Phantom Hourglass, I picked up Twilight Princess in 2008. That's when I truly had my heart stolen by the franchise and I've been hooked ever since. :)

Id imagine it's remembered welled if its your first game and that's understandable but on a over all scale of zelda gamse, those games are the weaker games out of the zelda franchise. They're great but far from the best zelda games.

I honestly wouldn't consider Phantom Hourglass to be among the weaker Zelda games honestly. Maybe Spirit Tracks, but not PH. I actually think Phantom Hourglass is better than Wind Waker, which I KNOW. Sue me. But hey, I just really don't like the dungeon design of WW. I think the Dungeon design in PH was much more clever, and the world was more intriguing to me. The islands were much larger and felt more important unlike Wind Waker where there were plenty of filler islands.

I include wind waker in the weaker Zelda games also. All great but weaker compared to some of the better titles.phantom hour glass was "good" and that's as far as I'll good with hour glass, WW and spirit tracks, I have a similar stand point on twilight princess also.

It's nice to know there's more of us out there. I have a theory that games that maybe got a bit of a bad reception for a while like Windwaker, Skyward Sword, and even (gasp) Majora's Mask, slowly gain in popularity as the people who were introduced to the series by them grow older. Majora's Mask is now being held aloft as one of the best, Windwaker has its die hard fans, and I know that eventually us DS game fans and the Skyward Sword fans will be given a fair chance too.

Same here! It has taught me a lot about good ways to analyze levels and put it to diagrams.

As a game designer too, awesome series indeed!

Years later, I still completely agree with this. It feels like people are underselling the mystery and exploration aspects of the TotOK because they simply don’t have the patience or skill to deal with it.

No. This excuse is thrown out of the window because, at this point, NIntendo had already developed *FOUR* portable Zelda games that had none of these flawled design choices: Link's Awakening, Oracle of Seasons, Oracle of Ages and Minish Cap. And they all work like traditional Zelda games. Let's not forget that four years later they also released A Link Between Worlds and, you guessed it, it also doesn't feature the dubious design choices from PH & ST. They choce those design goals because they intentionally wanted to make the games gimmick to make full use of the DS features, and created the game _for_ and _around_ the DS hardware features (to justify the DS), instead of making the traditional game _first_ and thinking on how to implement the hardware features to _complement_ the game (like it was done with A Link Between Worlds).

Good point, and I do agree to a certain extent. I'm just wondering if the flip design that the DS had pushed this line of thinking to the forefront of their minds, seeing as the previous game's systems didn't have the ability to just pause and convserve battery with the flip of a system. I'll bet you the issues were also seen internally when making LBW. It's no excuse for the design suffering, anyway, I was just speculating.

Endri Lauson nintendo became much more "conscious" about the idea of portable gaming and how it should be smaller in scale, easier to grasp, and quicker for "on the go" sessions around the DS era. Before then, they would usually just try to make portable games as equal as they could to their home console equivalents, to the best of the systems capacity. This ideology has continued into the 3DS, and is part of the reason nintendo is so adamant on calling the Switch a home console. ALBW is also very accessible and simple in scope when it comes to dungeon design. The biggest difference is that here you have a magical map that does most of the work for you.

Arguably, the first portable games didn't have the screen resolution big enough to add much more detail in.

+Endri Lauson Just going to say this: Nintendo didn't make the oracle games, four swords, or MC, capcom did (though Nintendo did make LA)

Krystal Bergman There’s a difference between pointing in the right way with level design and just showing the player exactly where to go. At that point you’re not really engaging with a game, just checking off a list by traveling to a point with no roadblocks or danger in between

Agreed. I also struggle with working memory which can make videogames very hard. I absolutely loved breath of the wild because it gave me a map (eventually) but a barebones one, so I wasn't completely in the dark but neither was I babied or given all the information either.

I think a big part of that though is that the series began with that as strong characteristics of the dungeons which was i guess also for kids back in the day. Like many franchises, making various parts of games easier and more accessible as Zelda has done with their dungeons, is a common contention. I also take what he is saying as personal views rather than absolutes, although they are very thoroughly and systematically analysed. By definition, making games more accessible by simplifying challenges means that more people will ultimately like those games - and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that of course but its ultimately all subjective opinion.

I believe that children, especially young children, don't become frustrated by such things in the same way. As a kid Sprit Tracks was the second game I ever owned, and I remember being stuck in the water temple for at least one or two weeks of playing basically every day because I didn't know English yet. What I'm saying is that children can, I believe, handle even really difficult things like that better than adults in certain cases, because they don't become frustrated with it and dont consider it "wasted time" in the same way, I believe.

You make some worthy points, but let's not forget that the first several games of the series were also aimed at kids 8-14. Kids are a lot smarter and more resourceful than we give them credit for sometimes.

Start ---------------------> Finish You're welcome.

+nivolord haha, thank you :D

Somehow I can imagine Maui sing that sentence...

feels kinda rushed, he was jus saying i dont want to do it because its to similar but then he mentioned stuff like having to carry the boss key back to the door which really changes up the dungeon design.

@@leafstormblaze9449 also completely ignored that you can get extra time on the hourglass, and that new items unlock new shortcuts in the temple of the ocean king

I was wondering why he didn't mention that. Maybe he just isn't the exploring type?

awesome astronaut I think because it's not really a dungeon, even if it is an interesting puzzle of the sort he enjoys. These videos aren't meant to be critiques of the games as a whole, but strictly an analysis of the dungeon design.

pianoguy222 Well, there is a dungeon in the island, one that will only open by solving the island puzzle. I would have included it, it gives the ability to write things on the upper half a more important use, it proposes an interesting puzzle and the reward is really useful.

There's also an island that looks like a ds

Never too late to play a Zelda game!

Bose-Einstein I'm considering giving Ocarina a go

I'd recommend A Link To The Past. Or, if you don't enjoy SNES games, try out A LInk Between Worlds. If you enjoy those, then go try the 3DS Ocarina of Time and then the 3DS Majora's Mask. You also can't go wrong with Wind Waker HD. Heck, the Oracle games for the gameboy color are also amazing. Actually, pretty much every Zelda game (except for Skyward Sword, the first Zelda as it hasn't aged well, and the CDI games) is something I'd recommend. Try to save Breath of the Wild for last if you can -- it'll make it all the more amazing.

Bose-Einstein thanks for the advice!

Yeah I agree with the Bose-Einstein. If I could erase my memory of all these games, I'd tell myself to play them in this order: 1) A Link To The Past 2) A Link Between Worlds 3) Link's Awakening 4) Oracle of Seasons/Ages 5) Minish Cap 6) Ocarina of Time 7) Majora's Mask 8) Wind Waker HD 9) Twilight Princess HD 10) Breath of the Wild This would be my top 10 anyways.

Haha I thought your profile picture was a red pikmin at first.

That would make the plot of Xenoblade Chronicles VERY different.

I mean, Skyward Sword has its good parts, but it does have its problems, like any Zelda game. Barry was just trying to add some ideas about making what they started with better. He admitted he's no game designer, but he had his two cents to add, which everyone is free to do. A Let's Player called Chuggaaconroy is playing through Skyward Sword right now, and he's doing it exactly the justice it deserves and not a bit more. He admits its massive flaws and still loves it, and discusses its charm and all the things it still does right. He's treating the game quite fairly. No one who says anything bad about Skyward Sword has an agenda. It has issues like every other game, and it's completely fair to address them. I admit that it has received more hate than I agree with, but maybe the initial stream of 10/10 scores set that in motion. I like Skyward Sword, but even I have issues with it.

If you didn't mind the color scheme of the sky, that's cool, I never noticed it. But it bothered Barry, so he wanted to talk about it. And Arin doesn't need Barry to back him up; "Sequilitis" is far more popular than "How 'Bout This Game?" Also, bashing Barry for bashing a game you like is a bit hypocritical. Just let him have his opinion. Everyone is entitled to that, at least. Just as you are.

Yeah! Chugga! .. ... .... that's all i have to say.

I can't agree - from finding the route through the dungeon in Zelda 1 and LTTP, to using your new item to unlock a second phase in the dungeon in Link's Awakening, to the crazy 3D dungeons of the N64 games, to the complex mazes in the Oracle duo, Zelda's dungeons were frequently about taking the dungeon as a whole space, rather than a series of discrete puzzle rooms.

Breath of the Wild's "dungeons" are completely non-linear, and I haven't really enjoyed any of them. I'll take Wind Waker's dungeons over these dumb Divine Beasts any day.

Puzzles might be the wrong word I suppose. But I've always seen it as kinda of themed gauntlet with multiple layers. The two main ones being the individual rooms and then dungeons as a whole and they're both usually connected with the item(s) of the dungeon. I haven't sat down to plot them out or anything but it's always seemed like the initial impression. That said, I don't have nearly as much exposure or playtime with the series as you've been putting in and I honestly think you've been doing a lot of great work and discussion out there. (that flowchart is a great tool for game design). So thanks for even taking the time to respond.

Yes!

But ultimately I still disagree on the map feature, I think it gives Phantom Hourglass the unique touch it needs to make it a worthwhile experience.

O .0

Skyward Sword is pretty much totally linear until the COMPLETELY AWESOME final dungeon, but it's such a great game. The music and artwork are so good, I can excuse any flaws in gameplay ( but I felt like it didn't have all that many). There were a couple of sections I didn't like, a few I wish were longer, and a few that were good because of their uniqueness and timing. For instance, the stealth level in the volcano was fun because you only had to do it once, and it came at a time when you really felt powerful, so losing your stuff totally sucked. Also, the time-twisted ship was awesome. More than anything, though, I have to reiterate that the music and artwork were just flawless. I want to get a job doing that someday.

That was more tongue in cheek than anything - if the dungeons are not going to have branching paths and whatnot, then yes backtracking would be boring. It was more just nice to see at least one element of the older dungeons be revisited

The sand wand was my favorite part of the DS games. I get that Mark doesn't like the 'follow the path' style dungeon but I think he undersold how fun parts of those games were.

I think it works pretty well. Kinda missed it in A Link Between Worlds, at times.

I agree, I found it to be pretty enjoyable especially for some of the weapons that required "precision" aiming. I remember there being quite the backlash against it but I never felt it was unintuitive or clunky.

I felt like these controls, while really easy to pick-up, slowed down some of the combat: since you can't move while aiming with an item, any bossfight that requiers you to use them usually have long cycles where they don't attack since you can't dodge. But at the same time, some items make great use of it: the boomrang mostly, but let's not forget the ridiculously OP hammer that you could use to play "whack a mole" with almost every enemy in the game.

It's just that some players prefer to have more agency in finding their own path. You feel like you're truly exploring a dungeon, rather than being led from one point to the next. There's nothing inherently wrong with either style, just comes down to preference.

I think I give myself appropriate buffer time. These latter Zelda videos have been much more spaced apart as I needed more time between games. Chronological was the way to go as it's interesting to see Nintendo's design focus change around Wind Waker. I'd like to go back to older games now with the knowledge I have built up.

Thanks for answering!

Same, I also love the temple of the ocean king, but I recently replayed the 2 games, and I get why people might not like it, but I love it.

this comment right here! i love the frustrating, challenging dungeons and tasks, it uses ur brain which normally you just..play the game,listen to what the characters/npcs say and go along with it? zelda will always be elite

I think that the writing on the map was good, and the problems he was talking about were really more to do with the detail and auto-updating nature of the dungeon maps rather than the ability to write on them. Make the maps vaguer, and writing on them probably works great.

@@AdeptArcanist I know this was posted long ago but what if they gave you a semi detailed map of the overworld but the dungeon map just had the starting room and the ability too switch between an arbitrary ammount of floors that is larger than the actual ammount in the dungeon by an ammount that is different for each dungeon so you would need to draw the rest of the map yourself.

I agree. Some other the most challenging and also rememberable moments I had while playing the game came from figuring out tricky bits and noting them down on the map si I could use the information later.

...What!? How many times I played and beat Phantom Hourglass (7 times I think? Not sure why I played it so much), and I never learned that.

Technically you can, but it does mess with things a bit, as I don't think the game will check to see if you have it or not, and will tell you to get it. You also willingly have to walk past a bunch of treasure and take the long way around most stuff you'd get with Bombchus and the Grappling Hook.

You have to go back once for each quadrant, plus once at the start to save a captain, and then one more time to reach a boss. You can do the 4th and 5th visits at the same time, but even if you had the most time possible, you just don't have the items that allow you to proceed.

The warp point keeps you from having to repeat the first 6 floors, but you'll still have to repeat floors 7-9, which are a bit of a pain with three switches that require three objects in them. And you don't get the warp until the visit where you go after the third sea chart, which means repeating the first three floors three times and floors 4-6 twice. And there's no avoiding any of the floors after that.

That's a blurry question with a blurry answer. You're absolutely forced to redo every floor from 7 to the bottom, but the items you get make it faster to get to lower floors. They actually let you skip floor 3 entirely. You do still have to complete the three switches on floor 9, but the bombchus, grappling hook, and so on make it easier to get them all. The only time an item outright prohibits progress is in the visit where you get the first chart - need bombs for that. And the visit after that, you need to find out the second correct symbol for the weird red door, and the game won't let you do that until after the Ghost Ship, even if you knew what it was. Also, yeah, the guy in the link forgot the first visit, before you get the titular Phantom Hourglass, and the last visit, where you have the Phantom Sword.

He literally praises all of those aspects, especially in connection with the timed dungeon. His critique is that they get overused in every dungeon, rather than being used in the one dungeon where they're most useful and not making the rest of the game piss-easy.

GamesAndWhales yeah i remember that too. It took me a while to figure that out

The grappling hook in general is probably one of my favorite Zelda items. I don't think I've ever seen an item in any Zelda game before or since (not counting the Runes) that's had so much sheer versatility to it! Need a bridge? Wanna bounce some arrows? Need to get to a peg that's all the way over there? Want to pull the shield out of an enemy's hand? *Want to fly up to that door in the Temple of the Ocean King?* Grappling hook's got you covered!

Yeah, I find the time limit to make this more intense and satisfying to complete. I just played Phantom Hourglass again recently for the first time in 10 years so it's all fresh in my mind again, and I was able to get the 3rd and 4th Sea Charts in one run-through of the Temple. I almost ran out of time at the end but I was glad to have been able to do it like that, which is a nice feeling I would not have had without the time limit.

i completely agree! i definitely liked that part about that Temple, in which you had to plan and not rush, and drawing the paths of the phantoms' routes on the map was really useful:) but i'm also a rather patient person, so i guess it's something for people like us, because when i see someone impatient play the game, they only rush through things and are surprised or frustrated when they get killed or run out of time, because they didn't wait for the phantom to pass them by in the safe zone, but in a normal corridor. and i also liked that aspect of the dungeon that you had to repeat the floors but using newly acquired items to create shortcuts and such, and how Mark said- it was cooperating with your past self: if your notes on the map were good, so easier was the run through the temple:) for me it was pretty clever, but people don't like it, because they're too impatient ;)

At 1st I hated it but now, I think it’s great

Another reason I liked the temple of the ocean king is because every time you visit the temple, you have more items that you didn't have when you visited it before. You can use these items to create new shortcuts in the floors which you had already visited before. So you are visiting the same floors again and again, but every time you visit them, a new path is open for you.

The only point I can say about thd Temple of the Ocean King is its a continous dungeon that has a lot of challenges, and those challenges actually a test - for us players - of our skills and knowledge as a gamer and what have we learned as the game progress forward, the dungeon also adapts to the current strength of the player making it difficult for starters but a challenge the experts and veterans too big to miss.

What is the problem with the stamp in Botw ? Its a good way to navigate in the world of the game without show everything its the choice of the player. I think the thing of draw over and point stamp its two different thing imo

​@@archimedekebab8196 The problem is that they serve the exact same purpose (allowing the player to make their own map notes), but the stamp system is strictly worse at that job because you're limited to a few symbols compared to just writing on the map. Most of the things you'd want to drop a symbol on already have one (ex.: Shrines), and you can't write a note on the map about odd features/NPC chatter that might be secret or puzzle clues.

I greatly enjoyed Spirit Tracks, and it is certainly one of the better 2D Zelda games imo. Great soundtrack and atmosphere, really fun basic gameplay, I actually liked many of the dungeons because of their puzzles were some of the best in the series, and so on. And yes, most of the flaws of PH were fixed, which was very nice. The game does have some bigger problems, though, mostly involving the train. There is nothing inherently wrong with the train, but ST is the only game in the entire series that doesn't have teleporting in the traditional sense. There are a few gates but they only connect a few specific places, and you unlock them really late, too. For this reason, and because of the linearity of the train tracks, you go back and forth on the same path a lot, and that eventually gets very boring. At least in WW and PT (where you also use a vehicle, a ship), you could always choose a somewhat different path, and see more of the world when going back and forth between islands, and you got efficient teleports, too.

Yeah no The train is worse than sailing. Gives you less control, had a shit warp system, and is slower and has enemies that ohko you and make you do everything again

Me too. One reason is that I just can't remember any of the skyward sword dungeons - except for the one with the roller coaster and these annoying scorpions.

My favorite in that one is the Lanayru Mining Facility; tricky, actually a bit hard in some areas, and really fun. The time concept is also done very well.

Seriously? SS has some of the best thematic dungeons in the series, and you can't remember any of them? Not the ancient Cistern (Buddha tale?), the Sand Ship?

Me too SS is my favorite zelda game (I played them all). It is interesting, likes nice, great music, and has great themes

After how much SS gets crapped on on a daily basis, I can't help but dread the episode myself.

Man, the graph would barely even apply. They broke the dungeon conventions in the best way - it's just player agency and not much else.

Except they are so tiny it doesn't really matter

Eh, apart from the last dungeon, which is the best thing ever since the invention of cookie dough, they were all pretty lackluster to me. Short, fairly unchallenging and very straightforward, especially if looked through Mark's dungeon mechanical layout lens.

At the very least they do something that recent Zelda games have avoided, making the dungeons themselves a 3-Dimensional puzzle, rather than just a disney land ride where you leisurely go from point A to B. The puzzle itself may be easy, but the fact that it's still a problem asking to be solved still makes it feel more rewarding to accomplish than just going through the motions and following the invisible arrows.

BotW is going to be a very special case, because the Overworld itself is a dungeon. You constantly need to think and tinker with the mechanics of the game to achieve your goals, and the Shrines literally working as Puzzle Rooms. The Divine Beasts are just important quests, not really dungeons in the classic sense.