The Tower of the Gods was definitely linear on purpose- they establish right at the start that it's a giant tower that you need to get to the top of, so you just keep climbing and climbing. If there were bits where you went back down, it'd just be a very vertical dungeon, instead of a narratively driven ascent.
I agree, though I wish they focused on the 'climbing' aspect. Linearity in dungeons leads itself well to the idea of slowly climbing a tower and feeling significant progress being made. It's what made Temple of Time in TP so good. Unfortunately Tower of the Gods falls short. You practically beam yourself right to the top. That final moment when you go outside and climb the steps towards the boss, you're robbed of the potential feeling of accomplishment. You can see how high up you are, but it didn't feel earned. I could get to the top of Everest if there was an elevator straight to the top. It's a missed opportunity for a great dungeon.
@@Patrick-ho3st the problem with temple of time is that the first part is a bit of a slog and its puzzles for the most part are pretty simple and repetitive, however, the concept works and it is probably the most creative dungeon in the game. tower of the gods was pretty underwhelming. the only good part from what i remember was the first part. the temple of time was not entirely linear. you can get the boss before getting the dominion rod. overall it is one of the better dungeons in twilight princess, but still a linear dungeon that is done correctly. hyrule castle tower in a link to the past was also well designed linear dungeon despite being mostly a gauntlet of enemies and very little puzzle solving. tower of hera in ALBW was also pretty good. alttp's version was not a bad concept either but it was underwhelming. snowhead temple and eagle's tower are unusual for tower dungeons because they are non-linear. the ice tower is also different where it is very linear then becomes less linear and allows for an optional key.
I think Wind Waker is the best way to make linear dungeons work. Unlike most other Zelda games that are more linear, WW's linearity doesn't make it any less fun or enjoyable. I agree that it can be too easy at times, but I still think it's a very fun game with a lot of positives. Also, you were playing the Wii U version - the Triforce quest should only take like, thirty minutes to an hour at most.
@@OtakuUnitedStudio Not to mention the fact that you can't get enough rupees for even a single map by default, making the collection of at least one wallet upgrade mandatory. Requiring the completion of sidequests to see the game's credits is a game design sin. They're called _side_ quests for a reason.
I love these videos and respect the hell out of you for how in-depth and well-made they are, but I have to fundamentally disagree with your stance that extensive backtracking is what makes dungeons great. Still, excellent video.
It's not extensive backtracking, I think - it's more the possibility of getting lost being absent. I think - or, well, that's how I feel. Zelda dungeons are always a bit of a guided tour, but Wind Waker really made it feel like a ride at a fair.
yeah! I noticed that in his Link's Awakening video, too... he seems to really like the most-frustrating dungeons :P different people like different stuff, I suppose...
It's really hard to make a player feel like he's actually exploring a temple without it becoming tedious :P there definitely is a big negative side to backtracking in particular, but It can be done in very cool ways I thin!. I'd say if you need to walk A LOT to test whether you understand the dungeon it becomes boring as the uneventful legwork interrupts your flow.. If you can do more exploring in your mind it becomes more fun again, I think. There's much more to it but I think this is something to consider
Well, there's the two different kinds of shortcut. The ones that let you save on the walking through solved puzzles are one thing - the ones that drop you directly at the next step are another. It's not about the fact that there's a shortcut or not, it's about the question "does each new key open up an immediate path directly to the next one, or do I need to think about where to bring it?"
8:00 i beg to differ. In wind waker there is a part in the mirror temple that you have to reflect sunlight off your shield onto a curtian to burn it and reveal a switch. This is way more clever than shooting a block of ice with a fire arrow. the sense of self discovery that you get from it is awesome
Wind Waker doesn't have as strong dungeon design as other Zelda games, but it's still one of my favorites for various other reasons. I loved sailing around, the artstyle is amazing and Link is very expressive, the combat is the best in the series (though the easier difficulty kinda makes it feel like a waste), and the confrontation with Ganondorf is probably my favorite ending in a Zelda game, on par with OoT. I feel like a lot of people think because the dungeon design isn't as strong, then the game should be 0/10 and thrown in the garbage, and games aren't really that simple. If I was to build a Zelda game out of the best parts of other Zelda games, I'd be plucking a good number of things from Wind Waker.
I was surprised by the quality of combat in this game. Despite the fact that so many of Link's sword attacks are dreadfully unrealistic, the combat mechanics actually do a really good job of creating the feel of a sword fight. Too bad the enemies are so... stupid. On the bright side, at least they could pick up weapons, and could fight unarmed. The darknuts seemed far more skilled in Wind Waker than in later installments.
I would say that Twilight Princess has better combat, but its combat is just Wind Waker's with the counters becoming active, rather than QTEs. Also, while Wind Waker's choreography is a tad on the silly side, it is still far more realistic than the likes of Skyrim. As a result it is far more effective and fun.
Elouj Time Reaver I respectfully disagree about Twilight Princess having better sword combat than Wind Waker. Twilight Princess's art style is far more mature and realistic than Wind Waker's, which calls for more realistic animations; this makes the helm splitter and back spin horribly out of place. In Wind Waker, these moves simply serve as the generic counter and involve reading your enemy and timing your attack. In Twilight Princess, these moves are just spammed until your enemy dies. If they really wanted to give Twilight Princess Link a good counter that fits the art style, they should have done something more like Skyward Sword's shield attack. Wind Waker communicates the feel of a real sword fight through these counters and the fact that you have to consciously hold your shield up to block, whereas in Twilight Princess, Link blocks automatically, and counterattacks are replaced with spamming "hidden skills." The shield attack was a good upgrade, but they made it overpowered. I admit though, Twilight Princess had the best cavalry combat in the series, and the second best ranged combat.
I forgot that they made the shielding automatic, I usually did not hold down L targetting during fights, so I never really thought about that. I would agree that that aspect is weaker, but counters a definitely better when active. It is better if you are punished for trying to spam them, but that boils down to enemy AI, which is abysmal in every Zelda game.
I enjoy this series, but it has made me realize that many people love zelda (and video games) for different reasons. I enjoy the idea of a truly open, exploration heavy dungeon. But in execution this often is much less exciting than when compared to "linear" dungeons. Nonetheless this is a thought provoking series, and I greatly appreciate your consistence stance on what you like about dungeons. Most youtube video's I watch about zelda's game design (Usually titled "Why I HATE Link to the Past", or "Twilight Princess THE WORST ZELDA GAME") is usually absurdly biased towards certain titles without objective justification.
It's wonderful you've realized that. I didn't notice it till a couple of years ago. It means different design philosophies may be used depending on the game and what the designer is striving for. For instance, even though, I hate most design ideas behind JRPGs, I can't knock them off. They're appealing to other kind of players and are being designed with different goals in mind. Naturally, there's some concepts that are ever-lasting, objective and unbiased e.g. frame rate. On the flip side, a lot of ideas that I may disagree with, are encouraged by some designers and players alike e.g. heavy dialogue interrupting gameplay, esoteric puzzles, overly simplistic puzzles etc.
I feel like most 'linear' zelda dungeons are designed to trick you into thinking you're exploring something while not being guided, that's the main point of linear experiences really, look at last of us, which has lots of dead end rooms, but it doesn't stop you from going towards them, the game feels MASSIVE...as long as you stay on the critical path, same goes for zelda dungeons, as long as you don't pay attention to the machinations something like the shadow temple can feel grand and sweepign and terrorfying, but if you graph the 'important elements' out the backdrop falls, the house lights come up and you see that the carefully created artiface isn't as intricate as you thought. it's deffinitely a different design choice that I don't think is worse, but then again most people think the water temple is the worst, while I actually really enjoyed it, so maybe I'm just playing devils advocate.
Yah I think if the linearity is well-disguised and the moment-by-moment puzzles are interesting, it's not really an issue to me - just part of the 'theatre' of gaming, to use your analogy. The endless keys and small rooms in ALTTP aren't actually as satisfying to me as a player I don't think.
I think more than anything this game is highlighting a split in the Zelda fanbase. I feel like what constitutes a dungeon having a "Zelda" feel now comes from to completely separate pools of origin. The people that started the series playing the earlier games grew up with an understanding that puzzles span the entirety of the dungeon (and brings in that idea of "non-linearity") whereas the people that started playing the later entries were exposed to more room oriented puzzles. In my opinion one is NOT better than the other and they serve the overall feel of each game in very different ways. Despite what has been said here I do feel like Wind Waker is actually one of the more open Zelda games to date with the ability to sail and explore the map at your own pace. The fact the the outside world and the dungeons contrast so much in this way I feel is a very interesting design decision. All in all it can't be forgotten that this series is focussing on trying to compare and contrast Dungeon experiences, and maybe the dungeons in this game out of context fair weakly against other entries in the series but like so many other people are saying there is soooo much more than just the mechanics and flow that goes into creating a quality experience. Personally I love the story in Zelda but don't necessarily need "non-linearity" or deep exploration baked into my Dungeon experience, I prefer it to be an optional endeavour, but I know thats what I like personally and not what everyone else necessarily wants. Nintendo have given themselves a pretty tall order by continuously changing what Zelda means to newer generations. Must be pretty tough to attempt to serve so many masters especially as the series becomes more and more popular.
I have a completely different takeaway than you on this, I feel like The Wind Waker was the first time Zelda dungeons really got interesting, and the reason for this is the moment-to-moment puzzle/gameplay design is so much stronger than it was in previous entries' dungeons. Players tend not to experience levels as overarching experiences, but on the moment-to-moment, so even if the structures of Wind Waker's dungeons are uninteresting, the dungeons are still great and fun to explore because the things you get to do in each individual room are fun in and of themselves. I also disagree that the low level of difficulty is a bad thing. The Wind Waker was designed to be accessible to new players, in fact that's one of the most important themes in its narrative: passing the torch on to the next generation. To that end, the simplified dungeon layouts are 100% successful in achieving this.
My takeaway from this video is that Mark kind of missed the importance of theme. He seems to realize only at the very end that every dungeon's puzzle is thematic; because the puzzles are thematic and the first two dungeons have loads of lore resonations, they feel bigger and deeper than they really are. Theme and lore also why I generally like Twilight Princess's dungeons better than Ocarina's. The downside to thematic dungeons is, of course, a tendency to organize your entire dungeon around your key item. But the trend towards organizing dungeons around key items is omnipresent in 3-D Zelda games. While I agree that the bosses are much too easy, even by Zelda standards, I think in this case Mark has missed the point because he's been looking at dungeons as exercises in complexity rather than ones in theme. I think it was somewhere around my second or third playthrough that I realized that they aren't supposed to be complex -- but they are supposed to be thematically coherent. The theater of moving through dungeons has played ever-increasing roles in Zelda games.
Lyseola -- Actually, it's fascinating. I approach the gameplay experience the same way I, as a writer, approach a story. There is a reason semioticists don't write good literature!
I completely agree. Windwaker has comparatively strong dungeons in my opinion - in ALTTP the mechanics were very complex and ingenious but I'd argue often overly so, and the designs, atmosphere and themes in each temple were often a little bland and interchangeable. I'd agree that for me, moment-by-moment puzzles are more engaging than remembering countless keys and rooms.
Well to be fair to Mark, this series analyzes design from an analytical standpoint. This series is meant to look at the structure and design of a dungeon, so thematic and personal feelings are often to put to the wayside.
I'm quite late but Id still like to make this statement: Wind Waker's Dungeons: Easy? Yes Straightforward? Yes Simplistic? Yes Fun? Yes Engaging? Yes Stylistically Awesome? Yes *Unpopular Opinion Warning* All in my top 10 Zelda Dungeons? Yes
Also quite late but the reason it works is WW didn't eliminate any of the complexity Mark was looking for, it simply moved it to the overworld. Whereas the dungeons were the main paragraphs of prior Zeldas, they were more like the punctuation marks of WW.
I can't wait for him to rip Minish Cap a new one. Wind Waker's dungeon design had problems, but at least it gave you plenty of islands to explore. MC just sort of hates you for trying to play it.
Angolin he doesn't really go in depth as to rip it a new one, but still I don't remember minish caps dungeons being bad at all, maybe the swamp one but not the other ones
Rip Minish Cap a new one? That game was sooooooo good! It was like if Link's Awakening, Oracle of Seasons/Ages, and Wind Waker had a tri-baby. I loved Vaati and Ezlo. And the shrinking idea was freaking sweet.
While I do see where you're coming from, I completely disagree with your end point here. I think the shortcuts to get to where you need to go, as opposed to backtracking through places you've already gone, is actually quite good. It's fresh gameplay, and it sort of respects the player. They know where to go, so why MAKE them go back through old stuff. Here, have some new stuff that'll lead you to where you need to go. But that's just my opinion.
Of course! Opinions are good. To explain my point a bit more - having the boss be at the end of a long and scary dungeon ramps up the stakes because if you die, you've gotta get back there. More enemies, more exploring, more traps. You don't wanna die because you know it's going to be painful! If you can just get back to the boss room in five seconds with a warp then - oh well, no big deal. Reduces the tension.
*_"It's fresh gameplay, and it sort of respects the player. They know where to go, so why MAKE them go back through old stuff. Here, have some new stuff that'll lead you to where you need to go."_* I dunno dude, I think it shows much more respect for the player to effectively say "Well, here's the item, I trust you know where and how to use it," rather than taking the player by the hand on a guided dungeon tour, just in case they don't know what to do. Backtracking can be "fresh gameplay" if new items or changes to the dungeon recontextualize what you've previously experienced, so that doesn't have to be an issue. Think Metroid.
Cheeseman This is true. I'd argue the short cuts are their own "sort" of backtracking, and maybe they could be done in a better, exciting way, like with recontextualizing previous rooms, which you brought up.
I see where you're coming from a bit. Phantom Hourglass really capitalized on the taking notes mechanic, which really helped me, because PH was my first Zelda game. Notes on the map are nice because you can leave the dungeon and come back and it will still be there. Of course, there is something to be said for the way they designed the dungeons. Windwaker seems to be designed for younger players, or people new to the series. For some reason, fans of the series seem to think a game being "easy", is a bad thing. Just because a game is easy doesn't mean it isn't fun. If this were true, no one would ever want to replay a game. But again, going back to the issue of spoon feeding in a sense the player, this mechanic is very important for younger players. Even with this implemented, it may still take this new player a minute to connect that the vines on the flower are the same as the vines they had to cut through before.
While Wind Waker still is my favorite Zelda, your criticism is very valid, I also think WW is one of the easiest Zeldas. But that made me think about something and I'd like to hear your opinion on in a future episode: how could Nintendo (or any other developer) create a dungeon with a difficulty scale? I know the answer is the optional items, that advanced players can go after those and find a bigger challenge, but is there a way where the player chooses the "hard mode" and then the structure or the puzzles get harder?
Off the top of my head, a very cumbersome solution may be to make dungeons rely on a risk and reward system. Think of Shovel Knight's checkpoints and Kid Icarus Uprising intensity system, in both games you can pretty much select the difficulty (mostly the latter) while appealing to different kinds of players. What the Zelda series could so is have minidungeons that range from easy to difficult and big dungeons that rely on this Kid Icarus-like system. That way a player who wants a dungeon tough as nails may have that experience if they pick the higher intensity, I mean difficulty. Naturally, to make programming easier, this would've to be mostly combat based.
You could add optional portions to dungeons that give you rewards, similar to the well in Ocarina of Time. Link doesn't need the lens of truth to beat the Shadow Temple, so he never needs to beat the well. The high difficulty dungeons could be the ones with optional items in them.
I need to think about this a little longer; it doesn't make sense that the hardest dungeons are the unnecessary ones that make the easy dungeons easier. How standard dungeons that can be beaten without some key item, but are much, much harder to complete without it. The key item could be in a fairly easy dungeon, allowing a player to do something easy to make something hard less difficult? Then put in place either a reward system for completing the primary dungeon without first completing the optional dungeon, and/or a punishment system for going out of your way to get the item that makes the dungeon easy. Maybe the reward could be some optional quest item that you cannot complete a particular sidequest without, like the gratitude crystals in Skyward Sword, the poe souls in Twilight Princess, Golden Skulltulas in Ocarina of Time, and the masks in Majora's Mask. In order for the gameplay to remain challenging in the final dungeon then, the reward for beating the dungeons the hard way could not be overpowered, but upon completion of the sidequest the player should feel heroic and fulfilled. Maybe it unlocks an extended ending, like the ones in Majora's Mask. The punishment could look something like when Impa calls Skyward Sword Link a failure for taking to long to get find Zelda, resulting in her capture. It shouldn't automatically make the game more difficult, but perhaps encourage the players to step up their game, earn the love and respect of the NPCs, and be the legend that is Link.
Hey Mark, I personally think you have some of the best game analyses on RU-vid and making this Boss Keys series as a lead-in to a Zelda episode is brilliant. I would love to see you give other games the same treatment, when appropriate.
It's a shame - your criticism is probably quite valid (I've not played any other Zelda games to completion, but I trust your analysis), but the result is what I'd consider the least interesting episode in this series to date. It's probably due to the dungeons being much less interesting in the terms that you've chosen for the series, but this also makes what you say less interesting. It might be different for people who know the Zelda series much better than I do, though.
Hello Mark Brown ! I want to first thank you for this serie, I'm a studient game designer and your analysis is like a gold chest to the heart of us all ! So bless you for your hard work ! I want to thank you especially for this episode in particular, as a gamedesigner and as a Zelda fan. Wind Waker wasn't the first game my brother and I played, it's the first one we truely finished for sure, together (I'm not sure if he did finish A link to the past, and he did finished Oracle of Seasons, but not of Ages, and I wasn't with him when he did so.) What I want to implie here, is that i am this kind of "modern" player. We played this game on Gamecube, so we liked games before the Wii and the smartphone mania, but my first full experience of a game until the end was Windwaker. This "easy" dungeons were the only times I felt clever as a little girl, non-hardcore player, and I must admit, I like puzzle, but i'm not a good solver, so it just makes sense I could't finish a game before Windwaker. And the fact i could finish it, and it's a serious statement, made me a fan of the serie. Made me feel a fan of this universe. Because that's the first time I could embrace the sensation of completing an experience. And I know this feeling has been designed, so that lil girls and lil boys like me at the time could feel clever and enjoy a epic end of storyline without a ragequit (or, later in time, a internet soluce page permanently calling me in the back of my head). Later, when I was first introduce to Gamedesign at School, the first thing I learnt was the concept of "Exposition, validation, challenge". And we asked us to make a Zelda-like dungeon. And it striked me so hard because, hey, that IS what was Windwaker build like. The most precise application of it. And at the time, I was like an Architecture Student discovering Le Corbusier : "This is genius". This "single-layered" thing, it was my (and our in class's) "Cas d'école", nintendo style, and in my eyes, that is still a rule i think I should stick, even with the way we treat Signs & Feedbacks, we kind of always ry to make everything the most obvious possible, and yes, no subtility, because the teacher always says "better a shitty glow on interractible objects that no signs at all". Not to make gamers like you (I should call that "traditionnal gamers, or "first hour gamers") happy, but make the wide audience we are trained to target comfortable and proud to have finished (and recommand to their friends even if they are not "too deep into games". Thoses baby steps, they are my norm, as a casual, narrative oriented Explorer typed gamer, and as a wide audience developper. So I'm so glad that you are doing this serie and comment on what you think is a better dungeon, what it makes you feel like, as an experienced gamer who knows what nintendo is doing in this game and why, but still express the gap there is between audiences. Thanks to you to make a point of reminding of us about subtility. That a thing we need to shape for games for everyone. We need more of that, and I hope we will be a generation that tries to go into that gap, between complete discovery and mystery, and clarity in learning. Thank you again. Have a marvelous day. Get many cookies, a bright Isle Delphino's Sunshine and many Rainbow Robot Unicorn Friends.
Wind Waker, when looking at its parts alone, might just be one of the weakest Zeldas in the franchise........ but then, it's not. WW is one of the best Zeldas. For some reason, WW comes out to be greater than the sum of its parts; the overall experience is better than their parts alone. It has to be that everything in the game enhances the experience of everything else. WW is a really fun and good game.
It's good design. If you take the dungeons on their own, they are simple and linear... BUT they are also set inside a large open-world that requires the player to memorize/write down key details to successfully navigate it. So, a layer of complexity that once existed in the dungeons was not removed- it was simply moved to the overworld, not unlike Breath of the Wild.
I'm currently making a game using Minecraft (don't judge me based on that; it's a great way for non-developers to make a game, and a simple enough coding format for beginners). It's based heavily on The Legend of Zelda, being essentially the only other games that I play, complete with collectible items, sidequests, bosses, and my own attempt at dungeons. Your videos have proved invaluable to me, particularly the dungeon graphs you've created. Constructing my own, using your graphs as a basis, helped me create parts of this game that I am truly proud of. Aside that, I guess that I'm just overjoyed that there's someone out there making these videos, evidently as excited and fascinated by the science of Zelda dungeons as much as I am. They can be bite-sized masterpieces inside of masterpieces, which is something truly rare in this world. I'm glad that more people get to see these dungeons for the works of complex, abstract art that they truly are, through the omnipotent power of the RU-vids. Carry on, my good sir. Maybe, in the end, give us a list of what your research uncovers as its method's objective few "best" and few "worst" dungeons in the franchise. (My money's of OoA's Jabu-Jabu dungeon for best).
This is interesting to me. The Wind Temple is my least favorite dungeon by far in this game. So much time is spent in the main core area, it takes a long time to go up and down from there until the turbines are blowing, and you often have to double up on that journey (once for Link, once for Makar), and there are a lot of large spaces with relatively little inside them. Even at the top of the main core area there are a bunch of windmills and neat looking things, but there is absolutely zero to do there. Conversely, I liked that the Earth Temple and the Fire temple allowed you to avoid monotonous backtracking and have shortcuts, or in the case of the Fire Temple, take you to a different part of a room you already know, but without the same agonizing travel times as in the Wind Temple.
Exploration of the same space has always been my favorite. As a player I value aesthetic above all else (art style and theme, not graphics). I always look up in awe of how its design is so clear and not misleading. I love traveling and the chest hunting in the windwaker. Wind Waker has one of the most cohesive dungeon theme, from enemies types to enemies placement even if you strip everything to white walls and black dots as enemies you can clearly tell which dungeon it belongs to because each dungeon is design with one clear motive in mind. Now I played Twilight Princess and more I understood that Wind Waker is not the pinnacle of Zelda Dungeon Design but the forgotten temple sure give me the the feels that no other game had.
I have always loved this game. I loved it when I played it originally and when I played it in HD. I see your points on in the dungeons, and I wish they had been longer and more in depth, the game just felt exciting and beautiful. When I first saw the dungeons, I was blown away by the art style. I can't wait to hear what you have to say about Twilight Princess and A Link Between Worlds as those are my next two favorites.
I really don't understand how you've decided that linear = bad. "No compelling reason to return to a previous area"... So? It just seems like you've arbitrarily decided that linear = bad, and non-linear = good. There's SOOOO much more that goes into whether or not a dungeon is good. There are good linear dungeons and bad non-linear dungeons. Puzzles, theme, gimmicks, ambiance and mood, enemies, complexity, length, music ... there are so many things that can determine a dungeon's quality. But you've just randomly decided that because Wind Temple was the only non-linear dungeon, it was the only good one. Wind Temple was probably my least favorite of the game! Well, except for Forsaken Fortress. I'm not saying that the dungeons were very strong in this game, because they weren't, but it's hard to take your analyses seriously when I know you're just going to say the linear dungeons were bad and the non-linear ones were good. I barely remember which dungeons were linear and which weren't when I think about them. I remember the puzzles, themes, and music, and THAT determines whether I remember it fondly or not.
I think it's not so much that it's linear but that it's linear in a way that it often presents the solutions to you right to your face. So you are more going through the motions than thinking about solutions yourself. Like with the flower example, you don't have to think "where can I use this boomerang" because the dungeons leads you right up to it and basically says "use your boomerang here."
Right, and that's not as fun. But I find that these videos are basically dismissing all linearity. There have been some brilliant puzzles that require real thought and planning in dungeons that are linear, and there are really watered-down mindless dungeons that are non-linear. Perhaps what he doesn't like are the watered-down ones, but he's acting like watered-down and linear are synonymous when they're not.
mrbinkey04 I don't think that's what he meant to say but maybe he focused on that word too much. But I think he made it clearer what he meant by linearity with the examples he gave though.
To answer this, it's important to think about what sort of experience Zelda, as a franchise, is trying to offer and focus on. I think it's exploration. It has puzzles and it has combat - but neither are as interesting or developed as pure puzzle (Portal) or combat (Dark Souls) games. Plus, proper swordfighting combat was added in OOT and proper puzzles - well, that's up for debate but I'd say Wind Waker. But exploration is at the heart of Zelda. And so when the dungeons aren't allowing for that (because they are funnelling you from room to room until the end) I'm going to say that's going against what makes Zelda... Zelda. Yeah, that is my opinion. For sure. This is, after all, criticism so it's going to be subjective. But hopefully that better explains why I value a multi-layered approach to dungeon design (and why I wouldn't call for it in, say, Super Mario Bros).
If that's what he meant, I thought it was still pretty unclear. It still feels like he's saying linear = bad, especially throughout the series. Plus, I've heard the linear = bad thing from other people, and I just don't get it.
I find Windwaker to be a refreshing title, because unlike other Zelda games, where the game is "go to this dungeon, then go to the next", Windwaker breaks that up by revisiting past dungeons, or doing something in place of a dungeon "trying to get to Jabun.'" Many naysayers claim that this shows a lack of quality, that because of time constraints they had to remove dungeons. I see it instead as an ingenious way to improve the game with limited time. I also don't see what the problem is with the Triforce quest. I hear people complain about it all the time. For me, the triforce quest was an amazing final challenge before being able to fight Ganon. It was a sort of puzzle in a way, trying to find all the islands and unlock their secrets. More often than not, the people I talk to that hate Windwaker never went exploring, and never even finished the game.
I think it's the nostalgia. My favorite moments in Twilight Princess are all linked to the parts that make it such a failure for me. It's weird. I loved getting the Master Sword, I loved Midna's Lament, I loved that "YOU'RE FINALLY GETTING TO EXPLORE THE TEMPLE OF FCKING TIME IN THE PAST" feeling it throws at you.. Just doesn't make sense to follow that with a horrible dungeon.
Please please please pleaaaaase make this happen, there are really cool puzzles in those. I've only played the prime games but you could do one video per area, so the design of chozo ruins, tallon overworld, agon wastes, bryyo (ice, fire, cliff)...
Excellent video. I've always felt the dungeons in Wind Waker was it weakest point but never had the words to properly articulate that. This video explains the feeling perfectly. Thanks, Mark!
You've gotta remember that Wind Waker was rushed and unfinished. These dungeons were probably the equivalent of the pendant dungeons from LttP or the sacred stone dungeons from OoT; an easy start before the difficulty ramps up. It's very possible that a hypothetical completed WW would have 6 more Wind Temple-quality dungeons. Also, I feel like you ignored my favorite part about WW's puzzles, which is how subtly they're introduced with no handholding. For example, in Dragon Roost Cavern you have to use an enemy's weapon to break down a barrier, which is demonstrated to you by having that same enemy break through another of the same barrier with its weapon. And the puzzle needed to enter Dragon Roost, where you have to water the bomb flowers, is one of my favorite examples of puzzle design ever.
The dungeons were probably made linear to make beta testing as simple as possible and the testers only checking for one possible path. The Tingle Tuner in particular had a high potential to break sequence so they probably had to check for that too. The game was less than half what it was supposed to be.
+Montasser1992 The Tingle Tuner was flat-out disabled in certain rooms. That room in the Forbidden Woods with the bomb funnel gave me trouble when I was a kid, and it pissed me off that the Tingle Tuner was just disabled there because we're not allowed to play smart in Zelda! It makes sense to turn it off in a boss/miniboss room, but other places should have been left alone. What's so objectionable about multiple solutions? It's one thing if the intended path is much harder or less obvious than the alternates, but i they're about the same difficulty, why not allow the alts? Go look up a Portal speedrun for what I mean.
True, it feels like by the time you get to Wind Temple, that's when the more elaborate dungeons were meant to begin but then that's the last real dungeon. Still it doesn't change the fact that Wind Waker was sold as a finished product (even if they did have to scrap ideas) so the criticisms still stand. The dungeons have a momentum that unfortunately don't get to take off in my opinion.
SOMEONE NOTICED MINISH CAP !!! I loved that game as a kid XD but also you make really good points about its dungeons and my fave dungeon was indeed the wind temple! I felt like it made good use of the items you get throughout the game .
One sticking point I've had with this series so far - and I say this as a fan of your work - is the focus on linearity and overall structure than the mechanics and puzzles within each dungeon. I'm glad that in this episode you noticed this, but I still feel like reducing each dungeon to its core sequence of keys and doors is a gross oversimplification. Often each dungeon is chocked full of moments and rooms that are unto themselves very unique or engaging, and even when the overall dungeon structure is rigidly linear and doesn't offer a lot of choice, the dungeons can still be very worthwhile because they are a sequence of interesting moments. The Spirit Temple and Shadow Temple are two dungeons you seem to be harping on a lot which is perfectly valid when you approach them from the perspective that linearity is bad, but they also feature lots of rooms that are some of my favorites in the series. Perhaps we approach these games from different perspectives, but I think that your focus is a little reductive so far. Still, I am enjoying the series quite a bit as a long term Zelda fan, so I do plan to continue to keep watching. You have a soothing yet emphatic voice.
With Windwaker I feel like they tried to make the dungeon feel interconnected so you had a bunch of these "AHA!" moments when you ended up coming back to a room you recognised. The problem is that Zelda as a franchise isn't particularly difficult, so it's not as necessary as it is in something like Dark Souls or Metroid that can have you lost for long stretches of time in a tense environment. I love Windwaker, but it definitely had the worst dungeons and bosses. The bosses were aesthetically cool at least though.
Wind Waker was the only Zelda game I completed. Watching this helps me to understand why; I think this game was an attempt to make the dungeons more palatable to a broader audience - I think Nintendo's been trying to do this in all their franchises for a long time, but perhaps this was the start of it. As someone who'd only started and not completed Ocarina of Time (I'd have been around 13 at the time), picking up Wind Waker didn't feel easy in the slightest (although clearly it was in a relative sense). For a new player, seeing the rooms guide you back to areas you'd seen before, and even just the very real sense that dungeons like Dragon Roost were not a disconnected series of rooms, but a path around a central area, felt rewarding in the ways that you pointed out in the OoT video. It seems to me that much like the divide between old and new school Final Fantasy fans, there can be a divide between old and new school Zelda fans, the latter of which have been more conditioned to appreciate the environments and sense of solving puzzles rather than for the explorative process to be a puzzle in itself. Granted though, I don't consider myself a fan of the franchise, having made that cardinal mistake of assuming the story in the Zelda games would be a credible focal point, but perhaps this sense of a change of development mindset will be made more clear in the coming vids.
This is an old video, but the Forest Temple's ice eye switch has a purpose: it's to teach you that you can use arrows to shoot through fire and light things. Remember, Adult Link has no access to the Deku Sticks. So how does he light torches? He has to use arrows. But the problem is is how do you know that? You can't know that. You do know you can use arrows to hit an eye switch. So when you see an eye switch covered in ice, you know you have to melt the ice. So when you see the lit torch, you put 2 and 2 together. Nintendo now taught you how to light torches as Adult Link with a neat puzzle!
you can also use din's fire. the forest temple was a pretty consistent dungeon overall but it also felt experimental with some of its puzzles. for example the twisted corridor only applied twice unlike in stone tower temple where the dungeon flip was the entire dungeon. then you had the rotating wall. this could have made an interesting puzzle perhaps in the central room where you had to line it up to other paths.
@@chaosprime1629 I've always felt the rotating wall would've been a great puzzle for hitting 3 Poe paintings. That should've been how you activate the Green Poe, and the timed jigsaw puzzle should've been used for the Purple Poe. As for the twisted room, there should've been one more with a puzzle that leads you to Phantom Ganon (replacing the rotating wall in the original). And perhaps they could've even used one more twisted room in the Forest Section of Ganon's Castle. And yeah, requiring arrows to light things on fire is only required a few times in the game IIRC (like in Ganon's Castle), but Nintendo still wanted you to know that arrows can light things on fire and the ice eye switch was a pretty neat way of showing you they can.
@@McDonaldsDude that is how i did it the first time. the poes was a nice concept for the multi key for a single lock (which originated in eagle's tower) but for beth i would have changed it to a different puzzle. i do think that a blue fire sort of obstacle would have been an interesting means to prevent that sort of cheesing in the dungeon itself while the water temple giving an alternate solution with din's fire worked. the forest temple in master quest added to the rotating platform a blue switch but you can technically skip this room if you know what you are doing. overall i do think the forest temple is a very solid dungeon, but it does have a lot of missed potential.
@@McDonaldsDude as for ganon's castle, that actually might have made the forest barrier more interesting. also the other thing i want to add to that video is that puzzle motifs technically go back to alttp, however, it was not done for every dungeon. one dungeon in particular that i can think of with this applied structure was the water dungeon. also link's awakening had it but due to most dungeons being non linear it is easier to miss. eagle's tower directs you with this sort of design and turtle rock has it the ice chunk puzzles.
this is still the only zelda game ive played to the end. i do agree that the dungeons are very linear, but i almost forget about that because the individual puzzles are so cool (i was also backtracking lots in the beginning before i understood how the dungeons were laid out)
Three years later, rewatching this video, I have to add a bit to my comment: while I absolutely loved the themed "puzzle motifs" and the consistency with which each one was introduced and built upon, the Triforce hunt was actually my favorite part of the game overall. Not only did it feel like the first and only time the game really let go of my hand so to speak, but it also felt like what the whole game was leading up to. In a game set in a huge archipelago with a talking boat, I was surprised I didn't get to spend MORE time sailing around like a pirate with a treasure map searching for lost treasure. It just felt natural, and in my perfect version of Wind Waker I would have traded a few of the dungeons for even more mysterious little islets and cryptic sea charts. Just go all out with the theme, you know?
>that candle puzzle inside Ganon's Tower where the camera goes into a cutscene and SPECIFICALLY shows you what you need to hit in what order, thereby nullifying the puzzle's difficulty
I'm incredibly excited for the Minish Cap episode, I feel that practically no one has played it and it's one of my favourites in the franchise. The Temple of Droplets is really fun, Hyrule Castle is a brutal final dungeon (but I love it), and the sky dungeon is one of the most rage-enducing challenges in games for me, but I really like its design and the STELLAR boss fight. Also the library side quest is bollocks.
On a wider view, i think those dungeons work quite well with the overall game. We have a big open map with a lot of little thing to do, and thing you can't do without an object found later in the game. It's like in a lot of Zelda game but the feeling of discovering new lands was strong . You are pushed to go everywhere, appropriate and remember places with switches and actions for later (and things you don't see because the game didn't show you yet "what" or "how".) The linearity found in the dungeon and the puzzle with evolving logic are a good way to balance this map without internal limit, I think. (PS: i'm really afraid with "Breath of the wild" actually, i'm not finding this balance in the various content i have saw.) Sorry for the aproximate english, I hope it was clear. Thank you for your good work ! :)
This whole episode might as well be a gentle "f**k you" to 9 year old me who found the dungeons in this game pretty complex and difficult :p Thanks, Mark, looking forward to the next episode (and the wrap-up at the end) :)
Hey Mark, I think it would be worth your time to do a short episode on Zelda I and II after you finish the rest of the series, just to use your newfound knowledge (and graph-making techniques) to show all that Nintendo has learned over the years on how these dungeons can be laid out. I understand skipping the Four Swords games (and Tri Force Heroes) as they don't have "dungeons" per se, but I think you would be remiss in skipping out on what you could learn from the first two in the series.
yeah I guess you're right, even before the point where you called the Wind Temple the only good dungeon in the game and were talking about linearity, I just thought to myself "it's true, they all are kinda too straightforward. except the Wind Temple, that was always pretty challenging". and I completely agree about the dungeon puzzle motives being a good thing. I just never noticed it myself because I never actually played a bunch of Zelda games in succession like you did here, but it's a pretty cool idea.
For myself, I appreciate how easy the game was because it was the first "large" game that i as able to complete when I was a kid. However, after playing it again myself recently, I can tell that a large part of my love for the game is nostalgia from that time. It's still not a bad game in my opinion, but it definitely felt like it was trying to reach a younger audience.
I feel like Wind Waker's dungeons are interesting beasts and definitely a start of trends for the future dungeons. They're, if anything, designed to be fun, removing backtracking and too many confusing elements. The problem is that they do become less challenging and, as a result, less satisfying. There's also an element of confusion if you die or leave midway through a dungeon. If you fail to go through that area after getting the boomerang, for example, you'll find yourself going back through from the start, and then being in that room where you first see the flower, but unable to reach it because you're supposed to have entered from the post-boomerang room. I think the Earth Temple deserves a little more credit, but I will absolutely agree that the Wind Temple is the best temple in the game. It confused me to no end both times I played it, but that was a good thing. I just wish that Makar's ability had been a bit more fun than "get to a specific point and press A", compared to Medli's which actually required you to figure out where to get her and what to do with her once there. Even Makar's movement was less satisfying, since free-flying meant it was easy to get places, whereas Medli required figuring out where to even start with her so that she could glide or get thrown to certain places.
I love Wind Waker it's my 5th favorite Zelda, and sure Dungeons are easy, and overall a very easy game, the story, the fun characters, huge Overworld to explore, the fun Boss Rush at the end, definitely the music, etc. All come together to make it great and fun to replay over and over.
This linear gameplay is fine for some players, but I like to savor my Zelda dungeons like a fine meal. I don't want to rush through them or be led by the hand. I remember playing through the earlier Zeldas as a kid and they left a memory because I had to work at solving the puzzles and conquering the dungeons. I have little memories of the later Zeldas (and a few negative ones) precisely because I was led through the experience. *I* wanted to be the one who figured it out, not to be told what to do. That takes time and effect which are both processes that are short-circuited with all the hand-holding and linearity. So I don't remember those dungeons as well. I was especially disappointed in the Goron Mines of Twilight Princess once I realized the path forward was actually linear. That was not the experience I craved and we have to wait years between releases. The Temple of Time was the same (sigh) linear experience. And yet there was so much creativity on display! It could have been so much better as a non-linear experience. The whole point of Zelda is that it's an adventure. The original Zelda was notorious for telling the player almost *nothing*. So friends would try different things like blowing up all the walls and lighting all the trees on fire. And when we uncovered a secret (!) it was the best feeling! It was as close to pure exploration in an adventure game as I can imagine. But with popularity has come a corruption in what made Zelda great in the first place.
Your dungeon flowchart... is there anywhere we can go to see the flowcharts you've made and poke around them? It would be nice to be able to click on a key or lock and have a little description pop up. I digress. It's just that I'm designing a Zelda ga--a Zelda-like game [*looks around nervously*] and these flowcharts are seriously helpful for designing dungeons with that Zelda feel.
My favorite dungeon was the Earth temple. Bouncing the light I found fun, and having Medli as your companion was super fun. I'm surprised there wasn't more said about the playable companions, since something like that is incredibly rare in Zelda, and Medli and Makar are still the only major examples. I can't wait on your thoughts on the DS's games, especially when it comes to their 'Master Dungeon' concept.
I found the companions pretty cool but ultimately didn't add too much because they're only used to solve the single-room puzzles. Which I like! But I feel WW missed a trick by not having puzzles where the characters needed to be in different areas Imagine a puzzle where Medli could bounce a light from one room to another through a window, for Link to pick up and bounce into a mirror. That's the sort of thing that could be very exciting but WW never really built up to that. But yes, I always appreciate changes to the formula so the companions are still good in my book ;)
Another great video! Thanks! I have to disagree with you a bit on this one, though. I've grown up with Zelda and have played every entry. "Exploration" certainly is one of the key ingredients of what makes Zelda - Zelda. The thing is, Wind Waker provides that sense of exploration through its overworld, and it does so (arguably) better than any other Zelda game (we'll see if Breath of the Wild can top it). And because that exploratory spirit is conveyed so heavily in the overworld, it's just not needed in the dungeons, to be honest. And I have to say, I've never really enjoyed exploring/backtracking in dungeons all that much, even in cases like Link's Awakening where it can be interesting to use your shiny new item to access different gated areas that you need to backtrack to (ala Metroid). Exploring to find those items is fun. Backtracking after you've found them is not. For me, I find more enjoyment in exploring a well crafted overworld in order to find a dungeon, like in Zelda 1 and Link to the Past. But, when I finally get to a dungeon I want it to be primarily about the moment-to-moment puzzles. That's one of the reasons why I enjoy Wind Waker's dungeon design even though there could have been a little more effort to make them feel less straightforward, and even though the bosses are incredibly easy (I recommend playing in Hero Mode). As was noted, Waker was arguably the first entry to properly introduce the concept of each room having a self-contained puzzle motif you need to solve before exiting the room, and then ramping up the difficulty of those puzzles as you got further into the dungeon. I loved that. In short, I feel Waker's dungeon design was a good turning point for the series in that it made dungeons less about exploring and trying to figure out where to go (that's what the overworld is there for, in my opinion), and more about pure puzzle motifs and epic boss fights. I don't want dungeons to be complex mazes where backtracking is par for the course. That isn't the kind of "puzzle solving" I want. But, to each their own.
I've always thought that Wind Waker had the lamest dungeons out of any Zelda I've played, myself. Still, props to WW for giving its room-to-room puzzles strong themes. That's not nothing! I'm extremely curious to see you get to Skyward Sword. Though it's seemingly anathema to most gamers, I think it had some fairly creative and excellent dungeons, so I'd like to hear your take.
Wind Waker is my second Zelda game, after A Link to the Past, and I actually found the more easy-going dungeons a nice change of pace from the more tricky and challenging ones found in A Link to the Past. I thought it suited the more child-friendly, easy-going tone of the game overall, so the fact I breezed through them didn't bother me (for the most part anyway, there were one or two moments that were a bit unclearer). I still preferred the more challenging nature of A Link to the Past (even if I got stuck a few times) but the appealing charm and splendor of Wind Waker was wonderful in its own right.
I think Wind Waker's small key counter displaying two digits is an interesting bit of subterfuge. It gives the impression that the game features dungeons that would necessitate a double digit key counter. Even if it's simply a leftover from a time in development when having ten or more keys would have been possible, or a graphic design choice to keep it from looking too small next to the rupee counter, it does a great job of making me doubt myself: I must be forgetting something. Surely at some point in the game, I needed that tens digit?
In defense of the Earth Temple (which could also be the final dungeon in wind waker, you can do the last 2 in any order btw) it has more focus on more complicated one-off puzzles than the Wind Temple which is more focused on map navigation. Even though it's more linear and I personally prefer the wind temple for that, I still find the earth temple enjoyable in its own way.
7:54 as a kid, I thought the game actually soft locked if you became an adult without getting din's flame, because you have to be a kid to get din's flame, din's flame is needed to thaw the switch, and sheik wont let you go back in time until forest temple is done. One time I actually did the first half of forest temple to get the bow, finished fire temple to get the fire arrows, and came back and finished forest temple with the fire arrows.
It's cerrtainly interesting that a game which has such a large focus on exploration has at the same time a lot of linearity. And not just the dungeons - the entire beginning of the game locks out most of the world, which just baffles me. As for the lack of backtracking outside of optional items, I'd argue that those items are a reward for remembering them. That way a player who struggles to remember the layout (and sometimes it is hard, particularly in the 3D titles) isn't hindered by it, and can still be challenged by the puzzles and combat. Meanwhile a player who does remember where things are gets rewarded for doing so. Of course, this does rely on the rewards being good or, failing that, at least not ALWAYS being optional. Unfortunately this is where Wind Waker falls down, as the rewards are often enemy drops or Treasure Charts - the former of which are easily gotten by other means, and the latter whilst initially giving the player something to look forward to upon completing the dungeon quickly become irrelevant as WW has no real money sinks - particularly in the HD version where several Triforce charts were removed (there is the magic armour but that's still not a reliable money sink and can make the combat boring if overused). Yes some treasure charts do lead to heart pieces, but since there's no way to distinguish those most players won't bother. That being said WW is still one of my favourite Zeldas I've played so far. Whilst the dungeons are woefully linear they have some great puzzles, particularly compared to the previous games. And whilst a lot of exploration is for pointless rupees, it still makes you feel like an adventurer - and the times when you find something different feel fantastic.
I recently ran through wind waker again for the sake of it and the game was piss easy, even on hero mode, but this game is just so fun. There’s just something about this game that calls me back to complete it every few years.
Looking forward to Minish Cap, Mark. The art style turned me off when I first saw it, but I ended up really enjoying it when I gave it a shot. Interested to see how the dungeon design compares, it's been long enough since I played it that I don't remember it terribly well.
11:10 Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and while I agree that Wind Waker has the most straight forward dungeons, imo that’s not from bad design, but a deliberate choice on Nintendo’s part to make it more accessible. It really disheartens me when I meet someone who never finished Ocarina of Time or Majora’s Mask, simply because they got stuck and didn’t know the way forward. And I don’t know if I should tell them the solution and go back to it, or look up a walkthrough, as both options rob them of the sense of pride for figuring it out. The best I can do is tell them to go back to it, but they never do, which is a shame. I think it is actually very hard to design a puzzle that is both challenging enough to feel rewarding, but not too hard that (some) players will get frustrated to the point of putting down the game. Wind Walker’s dungeon design was clearly Nintendo trying to take player feedback, and flip things around a bit. And as you note in later videos, they do go back and forth, ever trying to find the sweet spot that feels just right.
It's likely that the lack of back-tracking can be attributed to the difficulty of navigating a 3d room. Traversing many rooms in Wind Waker takes almost 3 times as long to navigate then anything in A Link to the Past. The level design is structured to avoid player fatigue, and in that regard I would say it was effective.
1:26 They are identical. The only real difference is that, since the Tingle Tuner is no longer an item, the Tingle statues hidden no longer require a Tingle Tuner bomb to be found; they now need a regular bomb, which is an improvement. But that's a sidequest, not an essential part of dungeon exploration, so really...not important.
This video perfectly describes my own opinion of Wind Waker's dungeons: boring and simple-minded with the exception of the Wind Temple. The "puzzle motif" bit was interesting and not something I'd considered before, though, so I respect them a bit more just for that. I love non-linearity in dungeons; I enjoy having a space to traverse that is not made *for* you, filled with nice little puzzles that come together like clockwork to neatly lead you from entrance to key item to boss battle. I enjoy getting lost and finding dead-ends and having to backtrack because I left something important behind. A simple succession of rooms with some thematic wallpaper is nowhere near as fulfilling.
I never understood the hate for the triforce quest, it encourages you to, you know, explore the ocean. And you rarely need to grind for rupees cuz the game gives you a ton. It's personally my favorite quest in the game.
I get what you mean, but in my opinion, from the games I've played, the wind waker has the best dungeons from all of them. I have only played this, BOTW, LTTP, and the two NES versions, but still. I hate having to backtrack because if you die on your way there, you'll just end up where you need to anyway. Also, even if the game brings you to the place you need the item for once you get it, you don't have to get that terrible feeling of going through the area you literally just tried to beat over and over, and instead your introduced to a new challenge that shows you how to use the item. Also, usually I will notice the area, but I will not use the item there because they put a giant maze between you and it and you wonder why you're even trying after your millionth death. So yeah. Also, everyone I've talked to says the earth dungeon is there least favorite in the entire game. But what about when you want to backtrack? For me, every dungeon presents backtracking as an option. It is not required, but you still want to get every last item, not because your a completionist, but because you genuinely enjoy the dungeon Yeah the bosses are not that hard... unless your playing in hero's mode I just hate trying to get to a boss again and again. It becomes less of a challenge of the boss, but if you can maintain enough hearts your way there to beat the boss. Honestly, it just comes down to opinion. You may like the style I hate with all my heart and vice versa. But that doesn't mean the style is genuinely bad because one person thinks so. Because, in other eyes, it could be the best one in the world Am I the only one who liked the triforce quest?
I loved practically all of Wind Waker's dungeons. The only ones I didn't like were Tower of the Gods and Forsaken Fortress I if you even count that as a dungeon. And also, I agree that the bosses should have been a LOT harder. I don't really mind the linearity either.
This is a great example of why I didn't enjoy Wind Waker's gameplay as much as I liked its story. I never really felt like I as exploring the world, just going from point A to point B (partially due to the lack of much to do in the overworld). With a perceived lack of content in the overworld and a lot of "follow the path" in the dungeons, I left it feeling like the game was on rails. It also adds a sameness to the dungeons that gets brought to the forefront with the boss rush in the final area of the game.
As much as I like your videos, I feel I have to comment on this notion of "disappointing because it isn't what Zelda as a franchise is about". Your points about puzzles that are too easy due to extensive hinting and simplistic dungeon design are well taken - I agree that Windwaker seldom gave me the deep satisfaction of overcoming a fair and welldesigned obstacle in form of a puzzle (or even a fight). I still enjoyed dungeons like the one on Dragonroost Island however, and that is because of how beautiful they are on an aesthetic level. Combine that with the soundtrack, and 16year old me DID very much 'feel' the adventure while exploring the inner and the outer areas of Valoo's volcano. You have admitted, both in the video and throughout the comments, that your criticism is of course subjective and so I'm not going to try to argue against your perception of these dungeons, which is of course valid. In terms of being a videogame 'critic', which is kind of what you do (the way I see it), there are (I believe) flaws to parts of your method however. This is because your approach to evaluating the qualities of Windwaker (in this case), includes a very personal and prescriptive approach to what the Zelda franchise is about. Put differently: You judge Windwaker on account of what you THINK the Zelda Franchise SHOULD BE, not on account of what it actually is. Just because my favorite part of "The Fellowship of the Ring" is "Concerning Hobbits", that doesn't mean that I should, as a literary critic, define the thematic core of The Lord of the Rings as being about hobbit-society and, in consequence, claim that "The Two Towers" is a failure because it fails to adhere to this formula and is disappointingly little concerned with pipeweed. The question what Zelda is about cannot and should not be answered without taking every single entry into account. Zelda isn't about what you enjoyed most, its first and foremost about a dude in a green suit with a sword. Often (or always?) there's a princess called Zelda involved, etc.. If Windwaker's dungeon design is a failure, it is so because its dungeons failed to captivate you and other's who share your perception on this. Claiming it is a failure because it pursues goals unfit for the Zelda-series is simply a logical fallacy : The Zelda series is the sum of its entries, everything in Windwaker is thus by definition "Zeldaish". Your problem thus becomes that you don't appreciate every bit of what the Zelda series is about. And that is totally fine.
The direct shortcut straight back to where the item needs to be used is only better than backtracking, if the backtracking doesn't incorporate the use of said item in meaningful, demonstrative, learning scenarios.
You know, I think this is the first youtube video - never mind positive about Zelda - that was honest about the franchise's plotline. It really is ad-hoc, you guys. I like elements of it, like the metaphor in the Triforce's breaking-apart and coming back together to grant wishes, but there's not a lot of depth to any of it, it's repetetive and redundant and just a good excuse for an awesome adventure.
I'm pretty sure the issues you described are specific to the remake. For some reason, Nintendo feels the need to drop the difficulty with its remakes, I guess under the presumption more insulting hand holding = more accessible to new players. For example, did you notice that the Blue Bubbles don't jinx you anymore in Ocarina of Time remake? Also, the original had optional Tingle Statues in the 5 main dungeons that you had to use the Tingle Tuner to find. Technically, you can get them in the remake too, but you kind of need to already know where they are.
You mentioned Wind Waker taught you what not to do when designing a dungeon? Do you actually design your own Zelda dungeons? For what purpose, and do you have any guides on how to *create* one besides these amazing analyses?
2:18 That’s a “loop” path, just to avoid pace-killing backtracking. You already figured out the puzzle. Just cut out the boring footwork back through the rooms you just came from, which don’t add anything to the puzzle.
Great analysis as usual Mark! I found myself confused at one point though and I was hoping you could clear it up. You praised the dungeons individual puzzles, but said the dungeons as a whole were the weakest of the series due to their linearity. Why does non-linearity, as opposed to puzzle design, define a strong Zelda dungeon in your perspective?
The individual puzzles in a Zelda game, for me, are never as intricate or involved as they are in a full-on puzzle game like Portal. They are quick and dirty little riddles to solve - almost like how the enemies in the game are just mild speed bumps on your way to victory. What makes Zelda truly *interesting* in my eyes is that the dungeons themselves are - sometimes! - giant puzzles in of themselves. Whether that's something complex like the Water Temple, or just slowly figuring out how to get to the boss room. Being able to use the entire dungeon as a source for puzzle solving is really exciting and not found in many other games.
Does anyone know any other similar series on RU-vid that go through some aspect of every game in the Zelda series? I absolutely adore shit like this and would love for something to sink my teeth into while I wait for a new Mark Brown video.
Wind Waker is a fascinating game because in a lot of ways, I feel it forgoes the traditional 3D dungeon template in favor of exploring a big world. Striking a balance between the 2 is much better, though. While I enjoy that game's dungeons as mindless experiences, they're very flawed. And in fact they carry that Ocarina of Time philosophy of discouraging exploration within them, but how elegant the puzzles are (albeit way too easy) and the world itself make up for their shortcomings. Alas, I feel Wind Waker was the last 3D Zelda game that tried to do something legitimately different with its world and level design. In many ways, the dungeons may be safer, but the game seems to be designed with the mindset of ''just hang out in the world and explore it''. Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword didn't have the same level of exploration outside the dungeons to make up for their iffy design. If anything they worsened Wind Waker's and, by extension, Ocarina of Time's flaws. Now granted, TP does have some dungeons that do partly heavily encourage exploration; the first one, arbiter's grounds and snowpeak ruins come to mind. Plus the game does have some caves that act as minidungeons, albeit they're only combat centered.
I don't understand why "linearity" in video games is considered to be so terrible by so many people. I tend to think too many options can either muddle things up or cause you to have to make each path have relatively the same difficulty (these aren't always true, of course). Don't get me wrong, I like options. I just think that wanting to not have linearity is overrated because what makes a dungeon (or game) good or bad is so much more than that. Thank you for making this video, Mark. You made some excellent points, and I can see that there are things Wind Waker could have done better (and I agree with some of those). In my opinion, though, linearity vs. not should only be one of many things that determines how good a dungeon is, and so far it seems linearity is the biggest thing you have focused on up to this point. I do like your analyses, though, as it gives lots of insights into one of my favorite franchises, so don't think I'm meaning to offend. I keep looking forward to the next "Boss Keys" you release.
I think it's because when it comes to puzzles, linearity can make it so that you don't really feel smart finding the solutions. Because it feels like you're being led to the solutions. The possibility of being able to choose incorrectly and mess up/go the wrong way/get stuck, makes you feel more accomplished when you do clear the puzzles.
Hm...that does make sense, yes. Still, I think there are ways to make puzzles linear (in a specific order) AND not make you feel like you are given the answer, etc. But I do see what you mean in terms of not letting puzzles be so linear that it is obvious and removing the challenge, so thank you for your insight.
