The Love Story Of FF16 Is Unbeatable 

The Childhood friends to lovers has always been my favourite trope Handled well, it can be very wholesome

⁠@@W3ll4nI agree. In the Bahamut VA’s GameRant interview about playing Dion he mentions Dion and Terrance were childhood friends, as well, and that only once Dion’s stately and military duties separated them did they have to sever themselves from one another other than fleeting moments of personal tenderness in the shadow of world events’ burden, strain, and demands upon them. It makes sense of when he laments that Terrance cannot be his master rather than the crushing weight of Empire upon its Dominant.

@@philodygmn Yes, Dion's and Terence relationship was very nicely done too. And to add to your comment, it helped to push the point that the dragoons were loyal to the Dominant of Bahamut and not the emperor, as their 2 leaders were in a relationship (Implicating that Terence would himself be loyal to Dion)

@@W3ll4n I disagree slightly in the sense that the point I’m making is to hilight the authenticity of their personal bond: though your point is entirely valid that the story impels Terrance’s fealty to his order’s lord commander, it is that same force of duty tormenting Dion in/into that lord commander role subject to Empire which served as the original wedge between them. All the more precious and valuable, then, their vulnerability as individuals and courage in striving to maintain their care for one another on that individual basis.

The only other natural relationship is Cecil and Rosa, which Clive and Jill are very clearly inspired by. Though in IV, Cecil and Rosa are very much already a couple when they're introduced.

@@etzioschmetzio2168 1. They weren't related, she was a ward. 2. They clearly had feelings for each other even when they were young and just had trouble expressing it. 3. It's not that hard to compartmentalize their situation.

The relationship between Clive and Jill is sweet and tender and I enjoy it to a certain extent, but for me at least, the game's lackluster treatment of Jill as her own individual character unfortunately drags it down, with the way she gets progressively sidelined and relegated to the background. She peaks at the Iron Kingdom but gets almost no interesting content afterwards outside her relationship support with Clive. And even before the 5-year timeskip, she kinda felt like a third wheel to Cid and Clive and very much lacked presence during the Drake's Head segment. For me to feel fully invested in a romance, both characters need to be individually engaging, make enough active contributions, and have deeper connections outside of each other. Jill lacks meaningful interactions with other characters, she barely even talks with Joshua. She has no family relations, positive or negative, to speak of. She had something decent with Marleigh from the Iron Kingdom, but she never brings her up again, doesn't know if she survived; I would've liked a side quest where Jill tries to track her down as well as the others who escaped and maybe find a home for them or something. Another issue is that much of Jill's dialogue - if she actually gets lines and isn't just standing in the background - feels somewhat... dry and matter-of-fact, not sure if that's the best way to put it, but yeah. It's just harder to engage with even if there may be backstory rationale for why she's subdued like that. There's almost no sense of banter/levity involved with her either. Clive is straight and serious a lot with tons of baggage, too, but he still gets to bounce/play off other characters from time to time, particularly with Cid and Gav and Byron and a few others in the hideaway. You and Quazii may argue that Jill is naturally reserved and doesn't interject herself into conversations unless necessary, but I think the story takes it too far, to the point where she just lacks active narrative presence too much when not tied to Clive. And like I said, even when Jill does interject, it's frequently matter-of-fact business talk. And then her Shiva appearances are underwhelming, she gets captured twice, sits out the Bahamut fight, doesn't join the party during Ash/Waloed, doesn't participate in the final battle, it's just disappointing... Jill's the main heroine, the only female party member, and Clive's most frequent travel companion, so I expected better for her own character. I don't believe my "expectations" are the problem here, as I'm far from the only one who harbors these criticisms.

​@@brendanlee369she gets captured twice each but she also saves clive three times if I am not mistaken

@@kyzersoze8408 yeah people seem to brush that off just because she wasn't in the final boss fight... really annoying tbh she's such a strong character

On the other hand how much time does it take to quickly pull her aside and smooch her? Some of their travels from one place to the next must have been weeks long and uneventful. There was plenty of time for some affection. But we have tropes to worry about, we can't let them get together too early right? /sarcasm

@@Leonhart_93 You clearly missed the point of Clive's character arc. He was a loner who had difficulties with attachment, very similar to Squall actually. This was even confirmed by Ben Starr during the pre release demo walkthroughs he did. It's also heavily implied that they did get together in the 5 year time skip (the boatsman basically calls them a couple) and their interaction on the beach says clearly to me that they had seen each other naked before that moment, the point of that scene was Clive finally embracing his connections, not that they banged on the beach (which they did).

@@RatchildUK I don't think they did something before that, their hesitant kiss attempt on the bed tells you perfectly where they stood all this time. The NPCs can feel there is something there, but they themselves avoid the subject. And I will never not think that 5 years is a ridiculously long time period to do nothing, because in the end they got like what? 2 weeks of intimacy? With them spending the least time together than ever? Way too little.

@@Leonhart_93 They do not hesitate to kiss on the bed though, they both go in for it but are interrupted by Gav. The 'kiss' in the barn 5 years prior was the hesitant kiss that never happened.

@@RatchildUK Until they don't show it I won't believe it. The awkwardness is too palpable. And their touch barriers only go down after the beach scene, it is night and day difference compared to what they ever did before. We all know the tropes, the first kiss and actual moment of romantic intimacy will always be on the screen, it's never off screen.

They did though, the boatsman calls them lovebirds and the beach scene very clearly demonstrated that they had seen each other naked before.

@@RatchildUKhow so does it show they’ve seen each other naked before? It’s obviously possible, just nothing really shows to me to be that fact.

@@morriganrenfield8240 They aren't even remotely nervous around each other during the entire scene. That was a couple on the beach, not two star crossed lovers that have been holding in sexual tension for 18 years.

@@morriganrenfield8240 - There is a very very minor sign, at the last base, Jill moves from the front stairs to the balcony in Clives room. Also, the little letters she sends Clive, while not descriptive, still show signs of Love.

I honestly believe that much of their romance/love story during the five-year time skip happened off screen. We didn’t see their first kiss or first “anything else“ in order to keep the focus on the story. At least that’s what I thought.

The fact that ppl are still arguing over clouds true ship all these years later says to me they aren’t a good couple. Yuna and tidus would be a better fit to compare.

All day every day

Facts. Cloud and Tifa aren’t really a real couple otherwise Square would have out right confirmed it in the game but the fact that shipping wars are a thing between Tifa and Aerith prove there’s not a real ship in FF7. Clive and Jill are undeniably the most real and well written couple in the series surpassing Tidus and Yuna imo even though their great too.

FACTS!

Your actually comparing that weak ass couple Cloud and Tifa? At least put something that actually had more tangible relationships like Squall and Rinoa and Titus and Yuna.

Thing is, if you did all the side content, there's a giant pile of clues to indicate Clive survived. Still not a truly happy ending (2/3 of the final party dying is still tragic) but it did leave plenty of doors open for sequels and DLCs, so there's that.

​@@katarhViviane's quest tells us the only truth is the one everyone believes. Everyone could have lived.

Because it wasn't good. Not many people were a fan, only those that didn't care much about the characters to want to know for sure what happened afterwards swear they liked the ending.

@@fredy2041 And do you think that those that really liked the story and wanted to make sense of the ending didn't do every possible piece of content? In there are there are some hints at what actually transpired in the ending, but hints will never satisfy me. It will never be an actual ending as long as I will never get to know what actually happened.

Yes

Why is it that surprising? Some enjoy the more adult variations of what makes a romance or relationship work. Others, prefer the more childlike love that never feels like it grows beyond that. Although the paring between Tidus and Yuna is sweet, the love feels like it's coming from two teenagers, not adults. Cloud and Aerith is one sided as Aerith knows her fate. Speaking for myself, Cloud and Tifa feels more platonic than anything else.

*_"It's not subtle, the character and relationship development just straight up doesn't exist in this game."_* I won't be subtle either. You were paying no attention to the character developments.

Just because a story beat doesn't spell it out for you doesn't mean it never happened. If I knew you in real life, and you told me you did something, I would flat out call you a liar because I never saw you do the thing that you said you did. Pics or it didn't happened. It also appears you won't judge the relationship of Clive and Jill on their own merits, but rather against the foundation of the characters you've listed. In other words, you decided early on that they weren't that great, as they didn't live up to the expectations you've set for them. *_This is the ruleset we are operating under._*

Do you prefer puppy love?

Not necessarily. Yes, his hand turned to stone, but that doesn't outright means he's done for. The ending is open ended for a reason. As to the ending, you've decided that he's dead.