@@TheRedBookIn first I wrote "the best" but I corrected myself, because I also very much like one other channel called "Tolkien lore", he too dives into more deep and philosophical realms of Tolkien's work, and I just had to be honest about it, lol
Criminally under-viewed. The quality of The Red Book is undeniably top tier all around. Not just the typical art seen on all the related channels, here we get unique editing, effects, colors that looks great and adds a lot of atmosphere. Mixing in clips of an audio book, that sounds outstanding, really bringing your mind directly into the material under discussion in a way that's on a level of its own. A serious, unique tone honestly unlike any other Tolkien related channel I have seen, personally. Deep delving into lore for fascinating thoughts and insights. Far be it from me to determine who deserves more views.... but allow me to totally determine that this guy deserves more views! Glad I found this unique gem of a (surprisingly still) somehow small channel.
The Red Book is criminally under-viewed. The quality of this channel is undeniably top tier all around. Not just the typical art, thats seen on all the related channels, here we get unique editing, effects, colors that looks great and adds a lot of atmosphere. Mixing in clips of an audio book, that sounds outstanding, really bringing your mind directly into the material under discussion in a way that's on a level of its own. A serious, unique tone honestly unlike any other Tolkien related channel I have seen, personally. Deep delving into lore for fascinating thoughts and insights. Far be it from me to determine who deserves more views.... but allow me to totally determine that this guy deserves more views! Glad I found this unique gem of a (surprisingly still) somehow small channel.
Hope you enjoyed episode 3 . Leave your thoughts and questions below and I will respond to the best of them on my next Appendices video! Episode 4 will appear at some point in September but feel free to let me know a character you'd like me to focus on for the Podcast. Oh and I realised I accidentally edited out the audio visualisation on screen for this episode. Whoops. It will be back in episode 4. You can find the Podcast on Spotify at (open.spotify.com/episode/6ji6GiG9IYhbHUrdsyWmsJ?si=396a9b9c4f384481) Or you can find it on other platforms at (anchor.fm/red-book) You can get early access to Podcast episodes and videos by joining Patreon (patreon.com/theredbook)
Steven, I was wondering if, when the Valar created Aman, some of the evil that was in Morgoth's Ring was able to lie dormant within Arda until Melkor's parole. I think it would help explain the extent of the "marring" of Valinor.
I've known about this topic in the Legendarium for awhile now... but I never understood the scale and scope of its importance. This is the context I needed to understand everything that came after concerning Morgoth. How the same being who smote mountains and toppled Lamps, would eventually come to barely survive Ungoliants wrath. Later grievously wounded by a highly motivated High Elven King, and even never willingly leave the hole he dug for himself. Absolutely amazing. This discussion was revolutionary to me in so many ways. I thought I'd more-or-less gotten a pretty firm grasp on how the maddeningly complex puzzle fit together. And that inadvertently made some of the magic fade for me. But this floored me, and I can't thank you enough for everything you do.
I agree on all the above. And I knew something was amiss when Melkor, who previously managed to hold his own and even gain the upper hand against the Valar for eons at the beginning (officially dubbed "The First War with Melkor") was swiftly subdued by Ungoliant and had to call his Balrogs to bail him out who, when they arrived, proceeded to drive off Ungoliant and force her to retreat . And then later to be wounded seven times by a damn elf of all things, and it matters not how great said elf is, Fingolfin is still a mere elf compared to a divine being who's so much greater than he is, especially in his prime as the greatest of the Valar by far at the beginning. Then right after his duel with Fingolfin concluded, he got slashed across the face by Thorondor and leaving scars in the process. Then getting put to sleep by Lúthien before later getting swiftly subdued yet again, this time by Eönwë, a mere Maia, at the end of the War of Wrath (and by extension, the First Age). All of that let me know before coming upon this video that Melkor was SEVERELY weakened, possibly due to his numerous misdeeds for any of that to be made possible. If you're interested, you should take a look at his other video that's similar in nature concerning the same topic at hand, titled "What is Morgoth's Ring?".
Wonderful podcast! I also interpret Morgoth's marring of Earth as manifold: 1) highjack the planet from the Valar's control; 2) taint the very essence of world so that it was now toxic to immortal beings, making Valinor the only pocket of refuge where the gods, angels, and elves could live out the eons, which also made the spiritual nature of the world so that the two children (and Ainur) could never live long-term in each others company (humans would not do well living in Valinor). I also believe that these things are essentially an expression of the Ainulindalë and the different themes: that the initial theme was for a perfect immortal union, where Iluvatar conceived the Elves, but then Melkor's dissonance destabilized that possibility, making the universe toxic to the Firstborn, so Iluvatar's later themes gave birth to Humanity, a race that would actually thrive in Arda Marred (and of course also take Melkor's now destructive power into itself and still use it for greater beauty and progress of Iluvatar's ultimate goal). What do you think?
This is one of the best descriptions I’ve heard of Morgoth’s power and how it differs from Sauron’s power. Probably my favourite video thus far. Great work.
Manwë: the Vala of winds and wisdom Varda: the Vala of the stars Ulmo: the Vala of the seas Yavanna: the Vala of the plants and earth Aulë: the Vala of smithing and all that's below the earth Nienna: the Vala of mercy Oromë: the Vala of the hunt and woods Estë: the Vala of healing and rest Mandos: the Vala of judgement Vairë: the Vala of weaving Lórien: the Vala of dreams and visions Vána: the Vala of youth and gardens Nessa: the Vala of swiftness Tulkas: the Vala of *being an absolute Chád*
While I agree with what you labeled Tulkas since he's one of my favorites (pretty much the equivalent of freaking Hercules in Tolkien's world), see to it that you don't get carried away with your perception of Tulka's strength. After all, this video was enlightening for me regarding the Valar's belief that they couldn't win against Melkor when they waged war on him (Battle of the Powers/War of the Powers/War for the Sake of the Elves) and thus, only intended it to be a covering action or diversion to get the Elves away from Melkor and Melkor's diminishment where he was already so weakened when Utumno still existed that he was now weaker than Manwë and couldn't daunt Manwë with his gaze anymore when the Valar confronted him in his throne room along with everything else that was said in the video regarding Melkor's power as Melkor and as Morgoth.
You are the first Tolkien RU-vidr or commenter I've seen who is okay with vagueness. For instance, in this video you mentioned that Tokyo left the mechanics of Melkor's power over/in Arda vague. You understand this aspect of Tolkien in the same way I do, this isn't about hard magic systems or anything very easily pinned down.
Another great video. I am also absolutely fascinated by this topic and, more generally, by the creation myth of the Legendarium and the essential role played by Melkor i.e. Evil in it. This is where Tolkien's literature trascends into philosophy and develops a vision of the world that works for our existence too. The paradox not-so-much-paradox of Morgoth's ring is the most powerful representation of one the key themes of Tolkien's cosmology - the idea that evil, any form of evil, even the most powerful one, in his blind, relentless and nihilistic attempt to subdue and dominate others, always ends up building the foundations of its own defeat, and will ultimately contribute to the enhancement of the Supreme Creator of the universe's inscrutable design. A foundamentally positive vision that, despite being profoundly (though not ostensibly) Christian in its inspiration, like most of Tolkien's themes is so universal that can be accepted by anyone irrespective of their faith, beliefs or cultural background. This profound depth and universality is what makes Tolkien's work so great and relatable by generations of people from the four corners of the world.
Steven, it is hard to believe that you can get better, but this podcast format really suits you perfectly. I think you can speak more with your natural pace and cadence all the way through the content, maybe because you don't have to pause for visual content. Everything seems smoother. It is truly enjoyable to just listen to your voice as you educate us on all aspects of Tolkien's lore. God bless you and your channel.
I stumbled upon your channel a few days ago and have been binge watching your videos since then. I think your analysis is wonderful and there's also a relaxing quality to your videos. Really good work!
The spiritual power that Melkor radiates (incarnated) into Arda is essentially the melody that he added to the music during the Music of the Ainur, which is performed according to the third theme. The distortion of music with this melody is actually the corruption of Arda. This is the essence of Eru's third theme.
Your mellifluous voice and carefully considered approach to Tolkienian concepts are very well served by a podcast. I also love your RU-vid channel and am by nature more of a watcher than a listener. This was very good stuff as ever, the tainting of the gift is not easy to understand and you do a good job of elucidating the ideas behind it. This is clearly one of the most Catholic ideas in the legendarium, though the original sin is seen as Melkors not as man’s. I feel like Melkors incarnation as Morgoth was a part of the weakening of his power, which was the seed of his defeat.Thanks Steven and keep up the good work.
It's funny that you mention the Original Sin idea because it seems that Melkor's Original Sin was a precursor for the fall of Elves and Men. I stil really want to do videos about the Fall of Man and how it ties in with Melkor. September already looks pretty busy, perhaps I'll finally do it in October :D . And I do enjoy the podcast format. I can say a bit more without thinking of how it will look in a video or how to present it. I can just talk. Already looking forward to episode 4 in September.
Hopefully not too stressful! Maybe you can help decide on the next episode - the vote I'm running on Patreon seems to be between Feanor and the Balrogs for Episode 4 - which way would you lean?
How was Melkor so easily routed when Tulkas arrived in Arda? This appears to be much more quickly achieved compared to the War for the Sake of the Elves.
Fear. Tulkas didn't actually fight with Melkor when he first arrived in Arda. His arrival caused Melkor to swiftly depart to regroup and plan. He had been battling with the rest of the Valar and then this new force of nature arrived who had no fear of him whatsoever. Melkor isn't brave and he fled.
@@anchuisneoir3973 I always took it that Tulkas is essentially a war god. Melkor might have an SSS rank in all disciplines but Tulkas has a SSS+ rank in combat and Ds in everything else.
@@specialnewb9821 “he gives little heed to the past or the future, and is of no avail as a counsellor, but is a hardy friend”. Yep, cool dude but definitely D’s in a lot of other things xD
This is a great concept, that Arda was to Morgoth as the one ring was to Sauron. And you make a great case based on the texts both primary and peripheral. You touched on the Halls of Mandos and Mankind joining with Eru in their afterlife, and that second one made me perk up. Would you consider putting into your maybe-box a video/episode analyzing the concept of the afterlife regarding all of the major races and beings of Arda? That would be a very interesting episode imho.
Thanks David, and yeah that's a good idea. My list has the afterlife of Men and Elves as separate ideas but this could obviously open up to Orcs, Dwarves, and the afterlife in general. Happy to add that to the list!
Thank you for one more meditative, thought-provoking episode! I find it fascinating that in the conflict with Melkor everyone had a lesson to learn, and while Melkor probably had more of them than the others, I'd love to know what are your thoughts on the lessons that the rest of the Valar were supposed to learn from their conflict with Melkor? For me, their first and foremost lesson was supposed to be the acceptance of change and its dual nature, since the Valar, as well as the Elves, somehow fail to understand and are reluctant to accept the concept of constant transformation through the cycle of creation and destruction; they were inclined to preserve things in their original unchanged form and in a state of constant growth, which is not only impossible, but also potentially harmful. But what are your ideas on this topic?
Dude, your knowledge and craftsmanship for this video's is so great! You're like Feanor itself when it comes to this. I watched alot of youtube channels on lotr related topics and you. I love how I depth you go about the more philosophical themes. Awesomepawesome
Thanks Thomas, I like this format because I can worry less about the length of video or huge amounts of hours doing video editing. I get to just talk a lot more :D
Congrats for the channel!! For sure one of the best of Tolkien lore on the internet. Something that I always think about is the nature of Tulkas as a Vala. You might correct me if the concept is not accurate here, but I understand that it is said that all of the Vala is in some sense the manifestation of a part of the intellect of Eru, and these "parts" manifest in Ea as an element, or some aspects of reality, such as time/destiny, dreams, etc. But Tulkas is only said to be a mighty Vala with great power that could stand against Melkor. I was then thinking, not that something like that is written in any part of the legendarium of Tolkien, but what part of reality might Tulkas represent? I don't know if this concept is right, but I like to think that the first war of the Vala with Melko is a representation of the Earth's first geological eras and the formation of the planet itself. Melkor represents the caos and the extreme forms in which the matter manifests itself. The Valar on the other hand, are trying to put order in the caos that Melkor broaths with his discord and shape the planet with the elements we know- like water, air, and earth-in harmony, in order to make life possible, as imagined in the music of the ainur. In these terms, I would like to think that maybe Tulkas could represent something like "the laws of physics" that came along to Arda to put an order in the caos of Melkor that could, in the beginning, distort, pervert, or difile (I don't know the best word for it right now, cause i am Brazilian and not native in English, but I hope you understand the idea) the very "order" of the universe (something like the way matter, time and space should organize themselves). So that might be the reason Melkor could never get the total upper hand after the arrival of Tulkas to Arda, because in some sense, if we can think of Tulkas as something like this, he kind of controlled the possibilities of caos and disrupt of matter that Melkor could implement before the arival of the last Vala. What do you (all that might read this comment) think of that ideias? Am I going too far? lol...
Excellent vid, as always. Would you do a video on the beautiful prose versions of some of the stories? I absolutely love the Lays as they really build a sense of (this will be hard to explain) a sense of reality and at the same time mythos of the stories. It's like the Lays make the legend more real and more legend, like they tell real stories but in a way that people after would revere as moral stories or legends worth learning from. I think there's a whole other dimension of Tolkien as a religious belief system with stories used to explain moral life etc. Anyway, thank you for all that you do and please keep it up. It means a lot to me and many others!
Simply brilliant! This is the sort of thing that really helps my understanding of Tolkien in a deeper way and why things happened the way they did. I do wonder though what might have happened if the War of Wrath had never happened and Morgoth kept corrupting Arda more and more. At what point might Sauron (and perhaps even other of Morgoth's servants) decide that not only did they have different ideas about how things should be but even act on them? I also took note of the reference that Melkor's return before the destruction of the Two Lamps led to, among many other things, animals first preying on one another. That would mean that Melkor was responsible for the existence of carnivores and presumably all animals were herbivorous before then.
Great stuff as ever. Maybe a video on the hobbits and their involvement in the political situation before and during Sharkey's time in the Shire would be interesting to look at.
It strikes me that Arda Marred is Morgoth's vain attempt to "claim" the Flame Imperishable by proxy. He cannot truly Create, so he attempts to "create" by damaging Creation, literally pouring himself into Creation in an attempt to identify it with himself.
You put it very well: Tolkien thankfully did not provide us with full mechanics. I have debated this with a couple of friends now, but they all seem to advocate for a superhard magic system, where it is almost scientific. Bluh. Though I would argue that it is semi soft, since there are clearly rules bound to it that cannot be broken, but only visible by analysing it quite deeply and not by reading the last 50 pages of the trilogy. Anyway, great video mate
What I'd like to know more about is what Tolkien thought about the mind of illuvatar. If Morgoth is a reflection then what is going on. Maybe illuvatar simply never intended for Arda to exist forever, or for the creatures of Middle Earth to live without evil beings seeking destruction.
Thanks! And yeah, I'm happy to talk about any topic or figure if there's something interesting to say about them. I'm sure I could think of something related to these lesser known Valar.
Keep making more of these podcasts! Could you do a video on the relationship between the valar and Eru? Do they represent facets on his personality or are they just a pantheon?
Hello brec, I think that would be a good topic to cover when it comes to how the Valar changed as Tolkien developed the Legendarium - I will add it to the list.
I'm just heading to my local shop to pick up tasteful alcoholic brew and then when I get back, I shall settle down to listen to this doubtless engaging monologue...
Brilliant analysis. Gotta say, Tolkien was very much the theologian. Though I suspect there's a heresy or two in there. Question: Does Tolkien ever discuss Melkor's ultimate fate? What happens to him at the end of Arda? Does he just get shoved into the Outer Dark? Melkor without anyone to bully into worshiping him, or dominate into controlling sounds like punishment enough.
I've always wondered if Melkor infusing himself into the matter of Arda was a separate act to the other evil he performed and created. Like, is it the act of messing up the Valar's perfect world that is what made the world marred and thus in an abstract sense have a Melkor ingredient, or did Melkor explicitly infuse himself into the world?
I don’t think Tolkien views the two perspectives as different. To create we exhaust a bit of ourselves and a bit of the world used in the process of creation. Only Ilúvatar can create without using himself up (that IS the Flame Imperishable). Tolkien views all artists as sub creators who take the original substance of the world and alter it with their own energy. Creation always comes with a cost for any sub creator: you lose a little bit of your potential in the process.
@@chart6454 That's a really nice answer and way of thinking actually. It's like Fëanor with the silmarils. And it really feels true on some level for real world creation too. The proper kind of creation that you put your heart and soul into.
An interesting theory on why Melkor is unable to bear the thought of anything being on his level of majesty much less surpassing him: Basically, he inherited the part of Eru's mind that considers himself the unrivaled supreme. In Eru's case it makes sense obviously but curses Melkor to this eternal complex. He is a pitiable being in this regard. His inability or unwillingness to adapt and accept, then be content with ONLY being the second most powerful in existence of all time? Not so much. Such a mighty, fearfully powerful, being reduced to desperately fleeing to his lowest pit and "sueing for peace" is quite the absolutely absurd sight to imagine.....twice. The first time in Utumno was bad enough. But after betraying his brethren and everyone else and returning to commiting countless evil atrocities for so many centuries until eventually cornered and he has the nerve to beg for mercy ?! Again?! I would love some Morgoth dialogue for these bizarrely fascinating scenes. What would/could he say at that point? "Chill guys, I'm sorry ok, I was only kidding around, please don't hurt me 'Tulk the hulk' remember when I called you that nickname big guy"? The same unimaginably powerful voice that scarred the land itself with a scream now begs for mercy while hiding like a kid under his bed..... Again. While his moments of pathetic cowardice are telling of his true character, he had a few moments which were anything but. Melkor being alone of the Valar to know fear, also therefore alone to know true courage. A supremely fascinating character indeed.
I second all of what you said, and with this excellent video done by Steven on the Marring of Arda and Morgoth's Ring, it's given me a greater appreciation of Melkor, and he was already one of my all-time favorite figures in Tolkien's Legendarium. I wonder if there is any new information on Melkor in the Nature of Middle-earth's release since I've yet to read it.
I would appreciate if you could take a stab at this question in a video... How did Sauron manage to keep his ruling ring after the sinking of numenor? Tolkien made it clear that Sauron perished during the sinking of Numenor, and only his spirit endured. Spirits cannot carry rings or any other object, so it would make sense that the ring also would be at the bottom of the sea. How did he transport it back with him to Mordor as a simple spirit? Was this even possible and couldn't he have also done the same once Isildur cut it from his finger?
One interesting thing I think is over looked (and it really isn't that important) is that while Arda is the main stage, the later conceptions are such that other Ainur are active in other parts of the universe and there may be other fallen Ainur those peoples contend with though of course, Melkor was the mightiest of all of them.
If Melkor's original function was to create, and others to improve, why did he want the secret fire so much? Was it more about him wanting the power to create life, something that was beyond him in performing his original function? Perhaps it goes to the concept of him wanting to rise above his station and to be Eru Iluvatar, together with the Holy Spirit reference.
Yes, being able to create in the sense Tolkien is talking about is the power of subcreation, or derivative creation from Eru, the source of all creation. Melkor wanted the Flame Imperishable to be able to create in the manner of God and not just someone who had the gift of creation given by God. He wanted to be able to shape creation to his own will and not the glory of Eru which is what all subcreation would hope to achieve.
@@TheRedBook Wow, he really was blessed at the beginning and did fall so very deeply then. He effectively had everything he desired (that any being could desire - and more) and threw it all away out of pride and vanity. The Milton's version of Lucifer in Paradise Lost does seem to come across quite strongly here, and given how well read Tolkein was with the myths of the world, it would not surprise me at all that he borrowed from those themes and built upon them in his own work. Congratulations on all your own hard work acquiring knowledge and thank you for sharing it with the community.
I watched the episode about the Mouth and how he was alive and a willing servant - very interesting. Perhaps this is where the echo of Sauron serving Melkor of his own free will and with desire for domination lies.
This variant of evil is very similar to how Lord Foul from the Chronical of Thomas Covenant works. Infecting the world and warping flora and fauna around his power bases and gradually affecting the entire world, even the sun at one point.
Do you think the marring of Arda could have affected other Ainur, or was its influence exclusive to beings with hröar? More to the point, could Morgoth's residual power have contributed to Sauron's refusal to surrender to the Valar and be judged, or was that a fully free decision? I know a previous podcast episode covered Sauron and Saruman extensively, but I don't remember it touching on whether the Marring could have interfered with the free will of Morgoth's subjects.
I recall reading a section in the Silmarillion titled "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" where Eönwë had departed back to Valinor after having asked Sauron to surrender to the Valar for judgement and Sauron refusing before fleeing into Middle-earth and hiding for the first 1,000 years or so in the Second Age (afterwards, Sauron probably determined that the Valar had turned a blind-eye to Middle-earth and so came out of hiding), it said "And he fell back into evil, for the bonds that Morgoth had laid upon him were very strong".
Only loosely related to the video but regarding the Ainur and their use of 'magic', do you think there are similarities and differences that exist between the Valar and the Maiar besides the obvious stated distinction in inherent 'power/rank/status'? Is the distinction simply one of scope and scale ie the Maiar are capable of doing the same things the Valar can do only to a lesser degree and extent or is there a more defined division of attributes? Are there things that only the Valar can do perhaps due to their greater knowledge and authority? Some of the Maiar are implied to be very great in inherent stature/power (Melian with the girdle, Osse having governance of the coastal seas and Sauron being able to "torture and destroy the very hills" as well as control weather at vast distances and command the eruptions of volcanoes etc) and seem to be able to affect the world in a profound way which you might only expect one of the Valar to be able to do? I'm not sure how much specific textual evidence there is for any kind of well researched answer but just wondered about your thoughts on it is all?
Brilliant content. In your opinion, does the power that morgoth put into arda (and sauron into the one ring) disappear after their destruction, or does it dissipate and can theoretically be available to them to reincarnate with eventually if eru allows it but not into middle earth?
I know that people now like to think of it as being energy, meaning that it can't be destroyed. I think at the time of writing, Tolkien really meant for Sauron's power that was in the ring to be destroyed, as much as the ring was destroyed. It was gone and could not be recovered. Morgoth was different in that most of his power still existed in the world and he says in HoMe that after long long years, due to how vast and great Morgoth was in his beginning, that power seeps its way back to him. Not so much with Sauron!
there is a question i have not realy related to this video but i will post it here since it seems most likly that it get picked up in your latest video...there is one thing Gandalf says to Frodo that i cant grasp...he says that Sauron thought the one ring was destroyed...how can that be? Didnt Sauron know what would happen if it was? Gandalf says that there is only one power that knows everything about ringlore and i always asumed he refear to Sauron...yet it seems to be common knowledge among the "wise" that Sauron will be destroyed if the ring is destroyed...seems realy like a misstake from the good professor...and here i thought the westgate of Moria was the only one...
so does that mean that the norldor are more inclined to melkor than the other elves since they dwelt in middle earth for so long....finally i understand why always after a war with the valar and melkor the land always sank...his dispersed power is literaly part of the ground..like a doomed foe the last act is to take your opponent out with you
The Noldor were more inclined for a variety of reasons. Their love of crafting was one - my episode 2 podcast covers that - the connection to materials, the earth, possessiveness and envy. And yeah that's it, Melkor's power is dispersed and defeating him causes very real effects on the world :D
@@TheRedBook Do you think maybe Eru always knew what Melkor would become and that it was all part of the plan? Without strife there can be no hope after all. I mean Eru even had a sort of back up Melkor in Aüle that was essentially what Melkor should have been and Eru created both of them so surely he could have made Melkor good as well. It makes me wonder about the end times too, it is supposed to be this great reforging of the world into some perfect utopia but in such utopia there would be no strife and no hope which seems lacking. Maybe the whole idea of a reforging of the world is just another way to fuel the hope in the current world and this world is the final product?
Timeline doesn't match for any of the Kings it could be - their deaths are all recorded and accounted for. Tolkien didn't mention him being one of the Kings and it would be a big enough deal for him to mention it. It's a theory of such magnitude that it seems so unlikely to me that Tolkien would never have even mentioned it anywhere.
