The Marvel Problem - A Very Reasonable Video Essay on Phases 1 & 2 

going from 23 movies in 11 years to 10 movies in 3 years is, in the words of Tony Stark, "not a great plan"

why didn’t they cast nick cage? he would’ve kidnapped the president and solved the whole avengers thing. easy.

To be fair, Cap went against Tony in Age of Ultron because Tony already messed up AI once. He didn’t want Vision (with an infinity stone) to be like Ultron.

The reason I never got on the MCU train was that I watched all of phase 1 and found it mostly really bad with awful villains. I'm glad someone else noticed that the problems were there in the beginnning.

Your side commentary is absolute gold “With a element and a new chest. Made by … lasers” 😂😂😂

It's not just the MCU being hit or miss. It's that the process they have employed is extremely high-risk, high-reward. This idea that they can greenlight a movie and even go into shooting with only pre-vis of action scenes and no completed script would not fly anywhere else. Marvel had made that process work more often than not in Phases 1-3, but it is a process that can only scale to a certain amount of content, and the mess of Phase 4 and all the Disney+ content showed how that falls apart at scale. I do have to correct something you said - Favreau's script for Iron Man was not complete ... they were still writing it on set! Most other studios that aren't making a massive tentpole franchise can sign a major star without a script. They got Downey because they really needed each other, Favreau brought in Downey, Downey brought in others. But all the issues the MCU is suffering with right now are happening because this broken process of making a movie somehow worked, and Marvel learned all the wrong lessons from that success, to the point where most of their projects only have a partially finished script or loose outline of the story beats and action scenes they need. What made the MCU work despite all of this was the connectedness of the films and how novel that was. But Marvel went from planting seeds they could harvest later, to making more deliberate connections, and those deliberate connections don't work as well with this looser production process, not to mention turning off directors who want more creative control ... as we have seen with how many directors Marvel has either lost or fired. The very things that made the MCU work at first are the things actively hurting it now.

I am LOVING the passion Nathan has about Captain America's and Iron Man's character developments. The editing, the music, the points. Just wow, great job! Can't wait for Phase 3

I am so glad the current dissatisfaction with the course Marvel has taken has led to more critical analysis of the brand like this, because trust me in the past you could not get fans to look at the problems that were popping up and evident back in phase one, and to even suggest that the first four phases weren't perfect was looked upon as heresy. I'm still watching the video, but I'm saying it now. The biggest problem I can see with the MCU is that these movies are no longer for comic book fans, although the company still tries to pretend that they are. They are aimed at a mainstream audience that by and large have never read a comic book, and have fallen into a blandness which is not present in the comics they are butchering in adaptation, and the box-office is starting to show it. Marvel blew up because they did something fresh with a genre that audiences thought they knew, but then turned into exactly what people had always thought superhero movies were. Solution, the MCU needs to stop with these 5 years plans and release dates and instead of pushing out rushed, first draft, by-the-book content, start making well-written, well thought out "movies".

I think people look back at the infinity saga with rose tinted glasses because they stuck the landing with infinity war and endgame. The beginning and end of a story are the two parts people usually remember the most and they succeeded and creating an ending that felt mostly satisfying and clearly resonated with the general public, despite the fact that the overall package was never top tier

Although I love Winter Soldier, I think its central conflict would've been more interesting without the Hydra cop-out.

I'm glad someone talks about the black widow's "monster" scene from avengers II. I hate this scene so much, but most people are treating it like a development of a character, when in reality it's awfuly misogonistic

I cannot describe to you how devastated i am to learn Edgar Wright was supposed to direct Antman. Absolutely ruined my day, that would have been so amazing

Is it any coincidence that everything you liked was up until the first Avengers movie, which was the first movie released by Disney after they bought Marvel. Everything after that was about squeezing as much revenue out of it as possible, now here we are

Wow these two are just so handsome and charismatic and funny it almost makes me want to watch a Marvel movie for the first time since 2020!

i was shocked to see how few views and subscribers this video has. it’s so well done and thoughtful. as marvel fans we can enjoy the franchise while also pointing out its flaws. this far into the MCU, i think looking back at the first two phases was so important because i see so many people hating on phase 4 and 5 without realizing many of the issues we see now started back at the beginning of the MCU (myself included).

I am cracking up at the Mjolnir part 😂

Finally someone who acknowledges that the MCU was not amazing prior to phase 4 it's always been a mess

just a little side note with the opening shot of this video.. Can we all acknowledge how Hawkeye is the LEAST intimidating avenger to wake up pointing their weapon at you..? You go hulk with just his body.. Iron man with his repulsors.. Cap with his shield and or STRAIGHT HANDS Black widow with literally 2 pistols.. Also Thor with a magic boomerang lightning hammer.. And you choose the normal dude with a fuckin bow and arrow 😂

Great to see a decent take on the MCU, it has it's problems and a good majority of the movies are just okay, but you're actually talking about what worked and didn't work instead of just writing it off as bad.

I honestly didn’t even know they made movies before Ironman 🙈🙈 the research behind this is so impressive!!! ❤

lol I think my mother and I saw Iron Man 2 in the theater, and when Whiplash is on the race track she asks "wouldn't there be someone there with a gun to shoot him?" 🤣 It did seem like all the #2s in the series suffered outside the Winter Solider though.

This was a great video essay and I am subbed. I thoroughly enjoyed the beginnings of the MCU, and really couldn’t put my finger on which felt so different as the movies went along. You’ve done a great job, encapsulating those feelings and bringing valid criticisms.

Back then, there wasn’t any attempt like this before so everyone wanted to make this happen despite the flaws. Now that comicbook movies are universal, you can’t get away with mediocre movies anymore.

I appreciate the simplicity of phase 1 and 2 with all the origin films and the big crossover event. I love the first avengers movie, but I think you can at least agree that the cinematography looks tv quality compared to the other films, that’s something age of ultron at least got right. 2014 was the most exciting year for comic book movies for me, not only did we get winter soldier, but we also got an unexpected hit with the guardians. It’s also the same year my favourite comic book film came out which is X-men: Days of Future, I also love the Amazing Spider-Man 2 even with all its flaws (love to hear your thoughts on that movie). For me I miss the simple 2 movies a year approach marvel used to have because it gave each film breathing room for audiences to appreciate theses stories and characters associated with them.

I didn't realize Black Widow and Hulk share romantic feelings until 2019. Lol. I was disappointed with Iron Man 3; I felt like something was missing from that movie. And, I was disappointed too when I heard Edgard Wright step down as Ant-Man director, and I didn't watch it at the cinema. After you said that Ant-Man has the same vibe as Hot Fuzz? Wow... I really want to see it!!! I've watched Hot Fuzz almost a hundred times.

Finally an analysis of the MCU that isn't a nostalgia glasses one that blames Disney for everything and actually sees there were problems with the script since phase one and this was just waiting to happen once the plots got more complicated

One flaw that I should point out in regards to Phase Three is that the Sokovia Accords and the fallout of the Avengers, for as game-changing as they are to the superhero world, don't really affect the later films that much until Infinity War. Doctor Strange has nothing to do with Civil War and it's explained that the Masters of the Mystic Arts only deal with "mystical" threats and not "physical" ones, 99% of Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 is set in space, Spider-Man: Homecoming doesn't really deal with the fallout of the Avengers or the Accords much, Thor left before Civil War and only returned to Earth briefly in Ragnarok, and Black Panther only deals with T'Chaka's death. As a side note, I know it's absurd to think that Vol. 2 and Ragnarok should be affected by the Accords and the Avengers' fallout as they both mainly take place outside of Earth, but I'm still using them to further prove my point.

Honestly replacing black widow with the wasp sounds like a great idea. I don't feel like black widow added much as a character and really made zero sense as a avenger. She's tough and a fine solution for normal humans, but she's just that, human. World ending apocalyptic threats to humanity should probably be tackled by the super heroes that are actually super powered.

Definitely a diehard phase 2 fan who thinks Loki has fallen off since Dark World... you called it, damn. XD Now I have no further critiques.

Cap keeps being called a perfect soldier, but he constantly doesn't follow orders by his superiors.

i’m of the opinion that a movie is allowed to be dumb fun and nothing more, and that’s what marvel movies felt like at first. but for a while now they’ve been less dumb fun and more just dumb. thanks for breaking this down, you made it easy to see all the squeaky wheels and loose parts that existed from the beginning, and how the machine started breaking down to eventually lead to where we are now.

The MCU has always been hit or miss. The only thing they had was consistency in releases. I love some MCU films, but let's be honest, most range from fine/mediocre to absolutely terrible.

I am glad someone else remembers how rough phases one and two were.

Can't wait for your next video, my man. I love this long-form, well researched essays

It's okay if you're not a fan of certain MCU films, but some criticisms, especially regarding "Age of Ultron," seem rooted in misunderstanding. The movie, despite multiple locations, is smaller and more personal. It delves into the Avengers' individual stories, introduces emotional depth, and sets the stage for "Civil War." Ultron's motivation isn't just destruction; he aims to save the world by making room for a more deserving species. Natasha's struggle isn't just that she can't have kids, she doesn't feel like she can have a normal life because of her past. Steve's doubts about Tony are valid, given the fallout from Tony's secret plan. Steve doesn't just complain; he believes the Avengers are enough to save the world without something special like Ultron.

the first thor movie being a self discovery makes sense though, its a character not alot of people who weren't familiar with marvel would know about, and they tied it into the mythology really well, I love that film and think it is still the best one of the thor series also you said only 1 was good in phase 1 but I count 3... I always loved iron man thor and captain america, the other 2 are genuinely tough to get through, but I genuinely loved the origin films from the start, hence my comment above.

They should have rebooted EVERYTHING after Endgame. At that point, they had every IP except for Hulk and Spider-Man

A good way to understand the 'downfall', is just watching how EXCITED Karen Gillian was to show that she actually SHAVED HER HEAD for the first Guardians movie! However there was NO WAY she was even going to consider shaving her head again for Part #3...

I think the reason I, personally, let so much slide with Phase 1 and 2 is that I survived the Daredevil era superhero movies. I loved Ironman (1) so much that I kept hoping that they'd catch lightning in a bottle again. So I kept watching and kept making excuses for my own disappointment. I officially left because of Civil War (excepting Thor: Ragnarok and Black Panther), but you're so very right, the problems were there since the beginning.

31:06. That’s incredibly racist dude. Just because he’s a rock monster doesn’t mean he’s Korg’s dad

The quality of the research, pacing and editing of this is brilliant! Can't wait for the next vid and for you to get many many more well deserved subscribers!

I don’t think marvel realized that having an interconnected universe always raises the question of oh what’s this character or that character doing right now. And if u don’t have a good answer all the movies kinda fall apart unless they’re so well acted or the story is so tight that it can be forgiven.

45:41 Yoooo dude, that long take is one of the best action scenes that's ever come out of the MCU.

It's always a bit strange. I absolutely love Thor and Captain America and really loved Thor: The Dark World. To me with the Dark World, it wasn't boring at all. It was well-paced with us getting a development of the characters and the world itself, the humor really landed with me, and I liked the characters.

Personally I think the quality of the current MCU is the same as it’s always been. Mostly fine movies with a few great movies and stinkers mixed in. The problem really is a lack of focus and an overabundance of content.

That Captain America line is not cheesy!

To be fair, every time they refer to him as a man, they haven't actually seen him yet. I would imagine most people would expect to meet a human, not some gigantic robot.

I think I may have been the youngest person in the Gaurdians of the Galaxy theater who already loved the characters

one thing that wasn't touched on is how Paramount/Universal was really who was behind everything b4 disney got involved during Avengers

There were definitely problems, especially Thor in Phase 1 and 2 but it was definitely exacerbated in Phase 4. But with Loki and GOTG 3 it seems like things are looking up a little

the editing and commentary on this was awesome. deserves way more views and likes!!

Back when it came out i always thought Ant-Man was the first part of phase 3... wild to look back on it and know this is the end of phase 2, instead of Age of Ultron...

I remember walking out of the theater after seeing Avengers 2 and saying more like Afternoon of Ultron

This is a great video ima big fan of these type channels and you definitely got it🔥keep grinding and growing

thank u for coming down so hard on whedon

You need more than 650 subscribers. Excellent work.

" for the first time ever a movie was able to balance multiple super heroes and have a tight story arc" The first 2 X-Men movies would disagree

LETS FUCKING GOOOOOO !!!! 🎉 I didn’t even like marvel until I watched each and every one of them before endgame came out and loved watching the avengers for the first time on my little computer. I can’t imagine what it would be like to experience that in a theater!

Just like Star Wars and James Bond, it's always had highs and lows. On one hand you can't really hold it to a standard, on the other hand they set their own high bar and should have stayed there instead of thinning out the brand.

I think I'm one of the few people that actually likes Age of Ultron lol. It's a fun watch, I actually feel like everyone's arcs progress in a natural direction (nat and bruce romance aside), and I appreciate that the first act is one of the few times we see all 6 avengers really acting as a team and doing some avenging

I look forward to the next part in your series. You make excellent points to showcase how flimsy the foundations of the MCU are and how it inevitability lead to its downfall. A lot of strange decisions were made early on and its clear to see where many of the issues stem from.

Still wild we had Dark Knight and Iron Man a couple months apart. Two successful films that other IPs have desperately tried to copy in the 15 years since then

yesssss so excited for this!!! there are SO many movies it's so hard to keep up!!

The Whole MCU UNIVERSE should had started off with The Master of Evil . I believed the MCU got arrogant because they did was something special & paid no attention to their long lasting affect in future reviews of how they would be look upon

Just found your channel, fantastic work.

Wow😮!! Jemanny Renner wanted OUT of the Hawkeye role?? The MCU should had granted him his wish ,which turned out to be a wish forfilled later on in real life. The phases "Careful of What U Asked For ,It Just Might Happen!!"

I love interest is not an overuse trope. It is absolutely a staple in comic books if you’ve read any.

Great video! You bring up some good insight and I share some of the same opinions. Phase 3 is no different to me and it’s where I believe that the movies became even more stale to preserve the formula. I can’t wait to watch the next one!

Personally I loved Iron Man, Thor and Caps origin movies aswel as the first Avengers. Iron man 2 and thor tdw were major flops but winter soldier and gotg were great. Antman was a fun heist movie so for me they done more good than bad in the first 3 phases.

It is a good video bring up just cause the way people perceive the MCU is very wrong, the MCU is not the perfect franchise, but it's not a dead franchise, both are exaggerated spectrums of how people perceive the MCU. Phase 4 & 5 are pretty much exactly like Phase 1 & 2, just we do have a lot of projects now even in just Phase 4 & while admittedly this is a quality over quantity thing. We still had the same kind of hit & miss feel as Phase 1 & 2. Since somehow it's more popular to trash talk MCU like how it's more popular to praise the MCU before, while there has been misses like Eternals, Falcon and the Winter Soldier, Quantumania, & Secret Invasion, there's actually been a great bunch of hits for the MCU: WandaVision, Loki (both S1 & S2), What If, Shang-Chi, Hawkeye, No Way Home, Moon Knight, Multiverse of Madness (for the most part), Ms. Marvel was very well received despite having one of the least viewed MCU show, Werewolf by Night, Wakanda Forever, Guardians Holiday, & Guardians Vol. 3. Phase 4 & 5 are not Phase 3 level of greatness, but it's not exactly as bad as the internet makes it out to be. You can say that because of that, Phase 4 & (for now) 5 are better than Phase 2, given the number of hits. That said, Marvel does need to take it easy on how many projects they're releasing. I already seen the latest film, The Marvels, it's not exactly well made as a film, but you can say it's a middling & passable film since it was at least fun & engaging, just nothing too deep. But nevertheless, we're going to be alright since the only for sure coming projects right now are What If S2, Echo, & Deadpool 3. As long as Marvel learns the mistakes & keep themselves together (we saw how DCEU couldn't keep themselves together as well as Star Wars sequel trilogy), they'll be alright.

re: Anton Vanko's deportation, I was under the impression from the movie he was selling Stark tech/ secrets back to the Soviets. How dare you do my dude Coulson dirty like that! lmao he was one of my fav elements of phase 1 and I'm really glad he got to go off and do AoS, I enjoyed it maybe because it went off and did it's own thing only barely connecting to the films. Solid critique; as much nostalgia as I have for these movies, they really were mostly pretty mid.

Personally I am less concerned with characters and storylines remaining consistent and progressing, so long as the movie itself is enjoyable on its own. And in a choice between the 2, I’ll choose an enjoyable movie that doesn’t make in its place in the MCU over a mediocre or bad movie that plays a functional role in furthering those stories. This is why I love both WandaVision and Dr. Strange 2.

The Iron Man 3 trailer was the best iron man movie ever.

You are amazing! Great video, great people, great vibes 🤌

Hawkeye, black widow, Thor, and the Hulk were really the most underutilized characters. We could have got a globe-trotting James Bond-esque style of Hawkeye and black widow solo film that would have gained interest for the character, especially Jeremy Renner himself. An action-packed spy thriller with a grounded narrative and a fast-paced fast five kind of action. Thor should have been a Lord of the Rings kind of film and Kenneth the director would have used that as a reference together with the comic books. Hulk should have gotten a second film in the second phase by having Ruffalo present his acting range Marvel should have utilized the same way they did with RDJ. There are a plethora of hulk narratives that would have been utilised and heavily interconnected to the she-hulk.

Personally, I don’t think the MCU ever went bad, it’s just always been good for the general audience and people who want fun superhero movies like me

The first 2 thor films and the incredible hulk was overhated imo.

Hey, great video essay man! Super well done. One small critique I have for you is your background music choices. Don't get me wrong, VGM from pokemon and undertale is great stuff. Huge fan of it. But it didn't always feel like it fit super well tonally with the points in the video it was put in, and I think it was a little too loud- especially since there wasn't background music all the time. Seriously though, great video. I enjoyed it a lot. Just thought I'd offer a little bit of constructive criticism because your videos deserve more attention and I hope they get there (:

I would also like to point out that Hawkeye gets so little until Age of Ultron. Black Widow at least gets some setup in Iron Man 2 and definitely more in Winter Soldier. Hawkeye gets practically nothing. Shows up in Thor with nothing to do, brainwashed in Avengers 1 and joins the fight at the end but feels the less developed of the original avengers, is confusingly absent in Winter Soldier despite working for Shield. He’s been done so dirty until Age of Ultron.

Great video - really good points made!

Idk, I literally felt complete after watching endgame in theaters. I haven't watched any mainline marvel films since. it was one of the few times in my life I knew that this is it and I'm done. I still read comics and graphic novels, but I have no interest in the marvel movie universe anymore. It's like when you move outta the house after graduating high school and realize your childhood is over.

I remembered being so hype for iron man 3, and almost wanting to leave the theater about 30 minutes in.

Joss Whedon really hated Captain America.

Good run down, the best I've seen so far.

Yurprettycool, it's funny because I was watching this video, remembering how much I loved this movie as a kid because I had read the first two books and it was just neat to see the story I enjoyed so much made into picture. Watching your video was so much fun because you ran through the whole story and made it into a perfectly digestible amusing format that didn't subject me to sitting though the whole movie and all of its painful glaring faults.

Beautifully done🎉

Very well done. Deep dive

"Where is this other character? This is a shared universe, why aren't they here?" This is not new or unique to the MCU; it's an old challenge which begins with suspension of disbelief by the audience and can easily be handled with "So-and-so is busy with X" if someone's absence too glaring. (This was explicit in an episode of "Supernatural", where Dean is angry at Castiel for not helping them, and then Castiel rebukes Dean by explaining that this is a big war and Castiel was busy in other battles.) Joss Whedon was verbally abusive to folks on set, but his behavior is pretty common and "normal" in Hollywood. It's too easy to give the impression that it's Just One Guy or that Whedon was the Worst of the Worst.

I can't imagine I'm the first person to say this, but you singled out iron man as the most influential super hero movie in terms of being grounded in reality and you specifically say that's because it predates the dark knight. But the dark knight is a sequel to a movie that predates iron man, batman begins. Which even Kevin feige has said was a massive influence to the mcus direction

I hate that that Loki has so much potential as the god of mischief but they just turn him into regular strong shootemup bad guy. They also left out a lot Thor’s powers

woooow, Marissa is soo cool!

The big problem with the MCU is that is following the same formulas that led to a down turn in the interest in the comics before the films got big, everything has to be interconnected but somehow stand alone, once you introduce the Avengers it makes no sense that most of them don't turn up once there is a significant threat, unless you write a really good reason for them not to be there. On top of that ,the comics where monthly issues of multiple comics and at least provided some sort of character development in between the big events , whilst the MCU is basically doing only the big events, the fatigue of having to keep up is just exacerbated.

Marvel was always flawed but we tend to forgive flaws if an idea is fresh. The problem is the marvel isn't fresh anymore.

Guardians of the galaxy was literally the movie that made me give a shit about marvel and besides Spider-Man it’s the only reason why I stayed watching their movies

I thought I was insane for hating Ultron, everyone else keeps saying how "good" it was 😭 And Natasha´s storyline doesn't even bother me that much (when I saw it theaters at 14 years old, it just confused me? Children were such a faraway concept I couldn't really understand having strong opinions either way), it was how Whedon handled the chemistry among the team. Them hanging out is fine in theory, but I felt everyone was too familiar with each other, and the chemistry just felt off. And regressing Tony for the third time was really it for me.

The reason why MCU was a blockbuster bcos it was a once a year thing. When I was in highschool, my friends and family would get together to go to the movies to watch the newest marvel movie, then we'll have dinner and talk about it. Now, they released a lot in 2 years, no one could keep up and no one gives AF. RIP MCU

An hour long video? Who do you think you are?

Quality video essay!

52:22 that's Whedon being Whedon. I've said since the days of Buffy, he's extremely overrated and only has one idea he just keeps recycling. Even his much lauded Firefly was just a rewrite of the characters he shoe horned in Alien Ressurrection.

Well done!