The Matter with Things | Iain McGilchrist | EP 278 

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Great seeing Iain McGilchrist get some more recognition.

Great Conversation! Here are some notes that may help: 4:00 The Matter With Things expounds on The Master and His Emissary via the experiential variations between left/right hemispheres + explores this in relation to the modern material reductionism 5:30 most brain structures have a divided brain - two forms of perception 7:30 right v. left hemisphere - complexity : theoretical 10:50 “believing the map v. the world that’s mapped” - one fault of current society 17:00 Divisions of “The Matter With Things” Book 18:20 severe delusions → likely disorder of right hemisphere. Also, unique opportunity to advance w/ theoretical models of the left/right hemispheres applied in the context of neuropsychological/psychiatric complications 21:00 Maps of Meaning 21:30 science, reason, intuition, and imagination (second part of “The Matter With Things”) 24:30 significance of dreams mapped onto right/left hemisphere proclivities - “we need something to fill the gap between the consistent and narrow, and ultimately unknown.” 28:00 throughline of “The Matter WIth Things” 29:28 similarities of OCD and Anorexia 31:20 misconception with making things explicit 32:50 theoretical etiology of the gender identity arguments 34:00 optical illusions and intuition 35:20 COVID and political intuition 37:50 defining/categorizing intuition and imagination; distinction between fantasy and imagination 40:00 rehabilitating conceptions of intuition and imaginations + its significance 42:05 “fantasy is the misuse of imagination to replace reality” 45:00 imagination differs from the propositional 46:29 - right hemisphere alloys things to come into being (spontaneous ideas pop into our mind) and the left hemisphere categorizes this 48:00 second part of the book is epistemology, the third part is metaphysics - the concept of opposites, the concept of the place of the individual in a whole, and the concept of the constituents of reality (time, space, flow, matter, consciousness) 50:30 values, purpose, sense of the sacred - we don’t invent them, we discover them (meaning of life) 51:05 arguments w/ people like Dr. Richard Dawkins and their shortcomings relative to religion 52:30 importance of awe and wonder 57:00 collapse of the wave function, its relation to attention, and the potential mapping onto the right brain 59:00 attention is an active, open receptivity - not passive. “Key insight to make is that attention is a moral act.” 1:00:10 logos: “truth in language and imagination serving love.” 1:01:10 “all that exists is in relation.” this is like Dr. Carlo Rovelli’s point from Dr. Brain Keating’s podcasts, where he discusses, “The world is not made by things with properties, but by things that interact with one another and they only have properties when they interact - relations, not properties.” Video Title: “Carlo Rovelli: How Heisenberg’s Hay Fever Gave Us Quantum Mechanics” Timestamp 18:23. 1:06:15 “myths were the only ways in which you could embody and communicate the really deep truths.” science has its own myths and narratives. 1:07:20 conundrum with people like Dr. Richard Dawkins regarding faith, truth, and narrative 1:10:10 “science was embedded in a narrative tradition that was at least implicit” 1:14:15 science actually hasn’t explained the concept of beauty 1:17:55 music has intrinsic meaning, depth, beauty. Goodness, truth, and beauty - most important values by Dr. Iain McGilchrist. Very interesting how many other scientists like Sir Roger Penrose and Dr. John Vervaeke point to this delineation 1:24:30 linguistics came out of the musical and why music is meaningful 1:27:00 why have we become so left-brained in a sense? 1:33:40 important to note what’s going on in our culture isn’t capitalistic malevolence so to speak, but a manifestation of something deeply rooted in our nature 1:34:25 framework of “Master and His Emissary” seen cross-culturally 1:36:55 “denial is key feature of left hemisphere’s take on the world” 1:38:30 categorizing the left hemisphere relative to left-leaning proclivity. another tendecy of the left brain is to deny the existence of something existing - out of sight, out of mind. why smart people still tend to fall on the far left spectrum (where intellect is circumvented). 1:43:30 when you see the world as mechanistic and devoid of meaning, this leads to a susceptibility towards control and sporadic emotion. Ultimately, this would lead to a culture of intolerance and totalitarianism. If you think about it, people still need an identity because it gives them some grounding/purpose - so whether they’ll use extrinsic supply of nonsense to form beliefs that loop an intrinsic sense of meaning or develop intrinsic principles and represent it extrinsically based on their goals, it’s the same mechanism (fundamental way of how “weaponizing empathy” works). 1:44:50 Sam Harris → rational atheism to meditation. Doesn’t want to associate a narrative with the spiritual observance of a meditative state/practice. 1:46:00 the function of a narrative system 1:48:00 instrumentalization/commodity of meditation 1:49:25 “isn’t anything more important than understanding the processes by which attention is directed.” bird’s eye view is essential. 1:50:45 patients with schizophrenia “see the eye of Horus” - the disembodied eye 1:52:30 there is some purpose that is transcendent, that is sacred, and is not deterministic 1:53:00 Sir Roger Penrose on non-determinism and that biology and physics point to this

Dr McGilchrist’s work has been an amazing discovery for me in the last few months. Thank you Dr Peterson.

The Master And His Emissary is the most important book written in the past 500 years. It is a breathtaking, groundbreaking, all-encompassing, philosophical, spiritual, scientific and academic revelation, covering all aspects of life and existence. There is no area of science, philosophy, psychology, or any discipline of human life, that is not covered by TMAHE and its successor, TMWT (The Matter With Things). Both of these books are essentially Part 1 and Part 2 of Iain McGilchrist's paradigm for the two ways of viewing the world, one via the left hemisphere, one via the right hemisphere. All of it is brilliant, all of it is amazing. Every word that Iain McGilchrist utters is like poetry, metaphorical, yet absolutely relevant. Centuries later, historians will look back upon this book and Iain McGilchrist as a turning point in civilization.

Iain is one of my favorite living psychiatrists to read!

Very humbling that a human being can create such a magnificent work as The matter with things. Great to hear him on a big platform like this to get attention for his most needed work.

I am just an average 58 year old South African woman feels so profoundly blessed and grateful to have the opportunity to learn from Jordan Peterson and his guests and all his other lectures that are freely available on RU-vid, what an extraordinary gift you have given! Thank you! 😊

Can I just say... Jordan, your interviewing skills have come along way, this was an absolute joy to listen to

I've got a free 2 year College Education from Peterson and his guests. So indebted to their efforts...the podcasts bring these ideas to life. Clearly proving their point...and should support the narrative point!💯

“Fantasy is something that covers up reality and takes one away from it. Imagination is one’s only chance to feeling one’s way into reality”. Thank you!

Brilliant. Jordan, you pitched this perfectly - I was a bit disappointed with your previous discussion with Iain (you didn't seem to appreciate his ideas and cut him up too much) but this was spot-on - teeing Iain up to explain and illustrate and adding brilliant points, examples and summations yourself throughout. It's amazing and liberating to listen to such exceptional men of knowledge!

I am reading your incredible compendium on the Master and his Emissary. This was after I listened to Dr. Peterson’s discussion with you on the subject of the brain divided. Thank you for such a profound work! And to you Dr. Peterson, you’re making me a better nurse 😊

The ability to have intelligent, civil discourse is imperative. They both exemplify the saying, "assume the person you are speaking to may know something you do not."

Always a breeze watching and listening to these two gentlemen. Iain's calm nature and Jordan's lateral thinking (connecting ideas and/or events) are always beautiful to see.

Shout out from Soweto, South Africa. Huge fan of Ian's work. These books and The Master and his Emissary were deeply profound with how I look at things.

I listened to a podcast with Iain McGilchrist on 'unherd' and I was spellbound. No doubt this man is exceptionally talented, but he can bring his understanding across in a manner that a nobody like me feels inspired. I'll be looking for him when I feel desponded, which happens regularly these days...

Love it when these two get together! My favorite Canadian and British thinkers. What a treat! Thank you both.

I'll have to go without food and switch the lights off for a time, but I think I'll actually go out and buy Mr McGilchrist's book. A price worth paying methinks.

McGilchrist is so right: everything IS relationship, that’s why God IS love. And that’s why God is both one and three (the lover, the love and the beloved).

How do you know someone fully understands a subject? They can break it down into layman's terms. That is where Dr. Peterson shines. That is his gift to those of us that not fully ingulfed into this type of study. I enjoy the way he introduces me to thought exercises and gives me fact based knowledge. I find myself constantly looking up words and people or books he references.

absolutely brilliant i haven't even watched the video yet but my favorite ever Jordan Peterson interview is with this man Mcgilchrist, it was only around 30mins long but it was so insightful and riveting and the two just had great chemistry, no doubt this will be the same cant wait!!!!

Iain is one of the few guys that can ‘tame’ Jordan in a conversion.

I just finished volume one of "The Matter With Things". I can't wait to start the second volume and also to listen to this podcast! Ian has become quite possibly my favorite living philosopher alongside Ken Wilber. Religious fundamentalism, scientific materialism, and postmodern relativism are the three dominant philosophical worldviews of the modern world and someone has to point out how and why all three failure epically at their attempts at describing/explaining existence while ALSO pointing to something beyond those limiting worldviews rather than merely criticizing them without offering any alternatives. McGilchrist and Wilber are the two thinkers who have best accomplished this feat imo, and it is sorely needed.

Outstanding session, thank you to both Dr. Peterson and Dr. McGilchrist! I appreciated Dr. Peterson allowing Dr. McGilchrist lengthy periods to articulate his thoughts. Excellent articulation of complex concepts. Greatly appreciate the discussion about meaning, philosophy and current social pathogens as they relate to the functioning of the human brain.

This could have gone on for another 2-3 hours and I would have been glued to my seat.

Thank you all in advance to uploading this masterpiece. This kind of scientific stuff and paradigms have been encouraging me to immerse myself into it more and more over nearly 2 years in a sense I'd been able to sharpen my knowledge and discover a few more aptitudes non-eligible for me but at last I begun to define what I should have done beforehand. I appreciate all of your work and from now on, I'll be more profoundly getting involved in it by a means of these inevitably vital records. God bless you all

Good call on the WEF at 1:34:00, Jordan. McGilchrist provides some major clues as to why our civilization appears to be going into a tailspin. Profound, yet straightforward. Great discussion. Thank you.

I'm really looking forward to this talk. I've managed to watch almost all of what Jordan has uploaded which is a massive undertaking for anyone other than long haul truckers who don't listen to country music. Iain however is hitting at something really profound and I've often wondered whether Iains work is actually the key to understanding the conflict between Jordan and many of his critics. Or even much of the anger in academic circles surrounding many of the social sciences. I hope this discussion is everything I'm expecting and more.

Really enjoyed this discussion. My response to your question to Ian about intuition I believe it’s the brain’s way of using all the data it has absorbed over a lifetime to inform whatever you’re facing in the present. As always, thank you.

This conversation is SO GOOD. I might have to read McGilchrist's book.

McGilchrist’s point about the value (and implication) of where one places one’s attention - so important. Since things tend to cluster (people, people with various hobbies or beliefs, types of art/music, youtube videos and the ‘suggested videos’ which follow them, etc) it places even more importance on that initial choice of what to attend to, because the things around it, which will vie for your attention too, are likely similar in nature and shape your life by the ideas they espouse and the culture they create. So start every day by thinking about and learning about the things that are truly important to you. Put yourself on the right path at the start, because if you’re gonna go down a rabbit hole, make it one you’re passionate about.

This conversation is has found a place in my all time top ten discussions. I almost cried at some points.

Less than a month, and this type of intelectual content has over 300k views. This is what gives me hope in humanity. If only these 300k+ type people can learn to communicate even a fraction as good as these guys, we would help pull the world out of this pit of insanity.

This is a brilliant conversation. I needed this today more than I realised, thank you so very much. JBP & IM

I have listened to this podcast in it’s entirety on DailyWire / RU-vid three times now… This content is so rich - I could listen many more times just to try and glean - the information shared here. Love the interplay and dialogue between you two. One of my favorite all-time podcasts! Amazing! 🤔 WOW! Much to Think about and ruminate on. Thanks for sharing. **I wish we could add comments like this on DailyWire.** 🙏👏👏👏

I meant to read the Master and His Emissary after the last McGilchrist / Peterson interview because he was so compelling. I didn’t read it, and now I have his second book to read, too! Wow - what a conversation.

Thank you, Jordan. This was a beautiful conversation ❤️ sending love from South Africa 🇿🇦

Wow. A few college-level courses here with lots to consider. Thank you both.

I love Ian's work.

Nothing is more interesting than when biology and physics meets psychology and philosophy

I’m not the smartest guy n the world, lots to take in and try to understand but I continue to listen, love ya DOC, just a guy trying to learn, trying to be better, keep up the great work, you are truly helping people/ me….. thank you Doc.

I’m in the process of watching this for the fourth time. I feel like I need to absorb everything that’s being discussed here. Dr. McGilchrist’s books are fantastic. Buy them and Read them.

Looking forward to this part 2!

Thank you for all your hard work Dr. Peterson, I really appreciate everything you do!

So meaningful conversation!

JP - Thank you so much for this! Love it. One critique - what’s with ads? I got RU-vid Premium so I don’t have to deal with ads. Not cool.

Please bring Dr. McGilchrist's books to audible! They are only available on paper and kindle. That would have been great if we could listen to them.

What a great conversation!! Thank you gentlemen.

Hi Jordan Just want to advise you that, if you keep the volume of your voice down when you speak, you will be perceived more clearly. By starting with a lower volume with the voice means that you can use dynamics, which catches the listener's ear much more effectively. Sincerely

What an absolutely wonderful conversation! It has taken me several days to get through it and my notebook is full of notes and it has been incredibly rewarding to go on the journey of watching this video. I didn't know anything about McGilchrist before but I'm sure to read his book now. His deep analysis of the differences between the hemispheres and its consequences it mind blowing. I wonder if the lack of right hemisphere thinking is hindering us from making truly fundamental breakthroughs in engineering and science and that our relience on the left hemisphere causes most of the work to be incremental and shallow (not to say that it's not useful).

Stunning. Thank you both. 🙏🏽

There are many many people out there, that no nothing of this great man. He is a true gift to the world. I mention him alot while I drive my taxi.

Really amazing content. Thank you!!!

One of the best discussion Jordan had this year! Thank you!

These are the types of discussions that make my mouth water. Both my left and right hemispheres are pleased.

Fantastic, I just wish I knew how to take the knowledge they discuss here and have a way to implement it into my life

Dr Peterson is generally a very respectful and skilled interviewer. Having watched two of his interviews with Iain McGilchrist, a particular reverance and respect struck me, which is completely understandable.

I’ve struggled with OCD for over 10 years. I just about jumped out of my seat when you started discussing analytic philosophy- as I distinctly remember my thoughts racing while reading Descartes’ meditations.

I had to pause at the halfway mark because my brain couldn’t swallow more. You two pack a punch that leaves me reeling.

"Only people who didn't come from Instagram and TikTok are worthy of liking this.."

Brilliant conversation. Made my day. Thank you gentlemen! 🙏🏽

I've not being pulled Into one of these podcasts as much as this in a long time, if ever. I must look into Iain Mcgillcrist and his work more. You know Jordan is talking to someone he admires when he calls back all interruptions. His dialect seems to come out more during this conversation ey. I think us Yorkshire folk are much like the canadians, we have lot of the same manorisms only different ye ;)

Oh my GOD, that's an awe inspiring discussion! I'll definitely come back to it several times, there's just so much to unpack. Is there any chance for a second part? If so, please consider inviting Rupert Spira to it - i'm mean, i've been eagerly waiting for a sperate interview with him but after listening to this here discussion i would love to hear the three of you dive into these matters together. Either way, thank you for all these high quality videos - it's incredible and humbling to have free access to such knowledge! 🙏🙏

Keep doing what you're doing, Doc. It blows my mind that we can get this sort of education without paying for a college course. Of course, this video is just a tidbit in the grand scheme, but still, great information none the less.

Again a great conversation It really gives me joy. Sometimesi i see reactions on JP on RU-vid. They alwayys have a (I now know) left hemispheres map of JP. He is either a genius, a liar or a danger. I loved the remark of Ian that humans have to work there way and combine all channels and ways of knowing and that inconsistency is not bad but sign you are human and exploring. Secondly. JP asked Ian why left hemisphere is taking over in our culture. Could it be that changes go so fast and information so much that we just have grab (left hemisphere) a hold not to fall. Our right hemisphere cannot cope and just gives up and we are stuck with each his own unupdated map. Thank you guys. Life changing content.

this explains one of the reasons why I jumped off my masters degree program in Art History and switched to Computer Science. Not to mention the people honestly admitting they would use "Marxist scientific theory" in their masters dissertation was the insistence of studying art through the lens of Foucault, who similar to Pinker claimed that everything can be interpreted as a piece of literature. Seeing as how many of the other students studied for years and couldn't even discuss the various different perspective drawing techniques or other things any experienced draftsman would understand I knew I was surrounded by people with no visual literacy or appreciation for the idea that visual (and musical) understanding precedes language. I'm glad I did my undergraduate in studying the western canon of art and intellectual history, it's really at the higher levels where you see them acting out the parody of the academy found in "Gulliver's Travels" by Jonathan Swift.

I will not pretend that I understand everything they are saying, but I cannot get enough of listening to all these kinds of conversations. My whole brain has somersaulted a thousand times over over the last three years. It is beautiful. It is as though I am taking university classes! I have been recently thinking though, that all these great thinkers will cease to exist in a very few decades. Considering all that is going on in the entire world, I doubt that, what I imagine society will become then, I doubt that societies will be able to produce such great geniuses. The humane kind of geniuses. The wise ones. Really. Am I delusional?

Two of my favorite people 💚

Enjoyed the first McGilchrist interview very much. This one was great as well.

Amazing discussion. Thank goodness for these two. If only wokists, bureaucrats and the like would watch this and transform their ways of processing their perceptions of the world and what they paid attention to and then attended to. Perhaps it has to be generational and will take decades. Nevertheless this discussion is such a gift. Many thanks

Absolute gold! Grateful for this.

It is amazing seeing Dr Peterson that excited and interested... :)

This is an EXCELLENT conversation... 😁

The most fascinating interview EVER‼️‼️‼️‼️‼️

Dreams can be very instrumental in rebalancing a perspective and can also provide great insight. Of course, they can also provide confusing and muddled stories based upon random experiences. The trick is to be able to distinguish between the two.

This was a great and important talk. I need to read Ian's books. It's very distressing to think more people are experiencing neglect to right hemispheric function. Very good job breaking these concepts down. Thanks for the chat, Ian! Also, I like to make dance music and when notes are lock-step, quantized to a grid, in perfect separation between notes, there's a preference for many accomplished artists to give music groove and swing. Unquantized expression of notes. There's something more desirable about an ideal asymmetry. Update: Got my copy of The Master! Just got into part 1. Fascinating, densely packed and very accessible!

Absolutely brilliant conversation from both sides.

19:54 - VERY impressive handling of in-video ad placements! You've up-ed the game for the rest of RU-vid! Kudos!

Amazing podcast, content and people in it. Yes, from human perspective all around is material for thought. How well we are able to prioritize activities based on perceived values and "facts" creates personal and collective presence and future.

Love both your work absolute legends to listen to have helped me no end as a dyslexic man alot of what you guy have to say speeks to me alot as I don't get on with the books to well thank you for your work written and spoken

I just heard 50 seconds and I'm hooked.

your production team is definitely adding value to content. Jordan, you had a goal when you started your Quora investigation. Some of us know. Good to see it. "He is finally ready, just had to die first". Now comes the wellspring, vital and inevitable. god is good, god is great Brother.

Can you release Ian's monolog from 1:43 :00 till 1:44:46 (ish) as a short or clip! It was such a beautifully articulate description of modern mental health and totalitarian thinking

Wonderful. Thank you ❤

I believe that music are a part with our mind and what we have experienced in our live. So only the notes change value when you have a new experienceds. The song always change more but It's more exactly what is meant you can't hear those part if you have experienced them in you life. So notes change to us to who we are at the moment. Song change on what we have experienceds in our life. Thanks Peterson

This content is a gift

Professor Jordan Peterson makes a crucial point by asking where that “wrong” comes from: 01:12:21-01:12:28. Thank you for sharing this insightful and inspiring conversation! Kind regards, Anna

I can relate so much to the guy who doesn't know when to pick up the newspaper! I feel like everybody around me knows these things and I just missed that class...when I try to explain my experience to others they just say I'm overthinking it. That's not really the case because I don't know the alternative. And I feel too embarrassed to ask people how they do stuff and navigate situations like that, it feels too intimate to ask. And just reminds me how weird I am. How does one bridge that by yourself? How do you figure out by yourself when to pick up the newspaper?

Absolutely love Iain's work and Jordan's past work, still wish Jordan would interrupt less though - I really think you can see Iain, particularly at the beginning struggling to rush his points to not be interrupted yet again... Great interview anyhoo!

Love McGilchrist. Life changing. Love when McGilchrist says “maaaaan” like an aged hippie.

I feel like this podcast was a win just hearing Ian say "nuanced."

Incredible, I've been hoping these two would talk again. here I go...

I found Jordan peterson a year ago and have changed my whole life in the aspect of habits and understanding for others sounds weird but it works when you realize that you can change a little each day then a year down the road your a lot closer to your overall vision

"The matter with things" might be one of the great works of the 21st century and I implore anyone with the time to give it a serious study.

Dr McGilchrist needs to be on JRE. Asap

Onr more similar thing here ,when we have curiosity about many things and when we get to know those things then there is something that keeps you aware that we know those things and we don't need to have curiosity about those things or recall in details to satisfy curiosity. We are aware how much we know about things without recalling in details. That is a great property of brain that creates the whole Ness in a moment of our knowledge.

Someone got İain a new mic!! Well formatted -- great İain show in a while. Thanks team Jordan!

Scratch the rest of my plans for the night

My favorite guest