seems to be a scripted and compressed version of the previous video, so a lot more approachable for people (especially since it's 40 mins shorter). thanks for making this revised version!
A lot of people were putting heat on Hax for "putting community members in a bad light" in order to get his ideas across better. This revised version seems to have catered to those complaints.
@@UnderfellSansTheEdgySkeleton honestly, a good bit of it was him fumbling with slides and whatnot since it was unscripted. hence why he released this revised version
thanks for making this shortened, edited video. a very concise and straightforward video. i’m glad you took out the story about the UCF creators. i felt it was a misstep that could cause needless drama, so good on you.
As someone who doesn't play Melee (or Smash in general, really), it's crazy to me how puritanical and ideological the Melee community tends to be. You'd think that competitive Melee players would want to fix the game's bad/unfinished mechanics and even patch the illegal glitches out of the game on a software level to make the game more competitive, but I guess making the game more competitive and accessible is not within the community's interest. As the common principle on the internet typically goes, "Change is good, except when I don't like the change." The Smash Melee community never ceases to amaze me with how terrible its optics are.
hax's gets into so many wierd personal fueds with people, including major members of the community that don't normally get into feuds, that any marit this has becomes invalidated because its tainted.
in Asumsaus's video where he said he spent 500 dollars on a controller my draw dropped. it was like, bro... Melee players live like this?! very glad someone involved in the community is both raising and answering the questions that need to be asked to make the scene actually sane to onlookers.
I spent close to 200 dollars on a mostly naked phob controller, I feel like it's worth it because it's the best joystick I have played with ever (including other consoles like xbox and playstation), but Its's absurd that some techniques and consistent gameplay can be more than twice as expensive than a console+game disc+vainilla controller. Hope everyone can enjoy a consistent an logical experience playing this game (I still remember in 2014 how much of a local meme was missed dashback 'yo he is looking for his wallet' when your carácter doesn't dash dance and keeps turning around). I would keep being happy with my phob since it feels like a premium GCC, but would hate it of it was a advantage in any other way than just comfort over a GCC.
@@michaelxv203 are you top 100? i've been playing for competitively for 10+ years and only use oem gamecube controllers lol. Been thinking about making my own phob pretty soon
@@math8755 I feel that phob 2.0 should be driving the costs down, esp for naked phobs. It's much easier to build so less labor should be factored into the cost. I've built an earlier version and 200 is still quite a markup.
It's crazy how receptive you are to feedback and how quick the turnaround time is on the editing. Great stuff, Hax. I watched the full original video but I'm sure this one is more digestible to a wider audience!
@@autoteleology Intended doesn't align with competitiveness, and smash's history, its often the opposite. Bring back items if you want to introduce more intended randomness lol
this is so much better than the first one. its sad to see some people are harassing ptas and other or acting like dicks in general and think they speak in your name. these people dont see that they just do a disgrace to you. i really hope we as a community can find a compromise :)
Too disruptive to how the game is traditionally played imo. I know there’s an argument to me made for it, but for me that crosses a line for some reason. I support all the changes listed in this video though
He has definitly improved, but calling him the most rational person is definitely a bit of stretch considering all the leffen is dark triad shit. To his credit recently he has been incredibly well spoken when presenting this form of arguement
Something I don't see discussed pretty much ever when it comes to the legal controllers debate is that the boxx and other fight pad controllers are far more accessible to people who have disabilities or otherwise have issues (medically not preference). Gate keeping a game based on what controller ppl use is absurd and tbh it really feeds into the negative view ppl have of the smash community
@@Saltience there is literally no other community that debates this more I can promise you that lmao In most other games fight pads are accepted and preferred
Ngl these are some solid points. Especially about the 1-frame delay on the new UCF shield drop coordinates. That just seems strange to me. Making the dash out of crouch more accessible and easy to perform seems like a no-brainer, since it lowkey should be a fundamental movement option. The only change that I'm still unsure about is the SDI remainder fix. It seems difficult to implement this change covertly at major events if the match is being analyzed frame by frame (and the visual fix would probably happen a lot).
I don't get why the community is taking so long to implement these changes, people are already spending $100+ for controllers that basically do the same as the fixes, Why add a paywall to melee?
It doesn't get implemented because community "leaders" would rather have no fix than have it come from someone like hax. The smash has far too many vacuous people
let's get real, even it's a game people play in tournament, the reason why melee is considered hard to get into is because it's a game riddled with bug and technical issue, so much so there is actually a "meta" regarding the gamecube port in wich you are inserting your pad.
I keep hearing stories of people spending several hundred dollars on a single controller. I'd hope the proposed software fixes can prevent a pay-to-win situation like this
The ONLY issue I have with the B0xx is that it minimizes human error. You're not going to miss you're 1.0 dash cuz you're nervous. The level of accuracy needed to play on a controller is just higher in general. I also don't think the box or non OEM controller boards should be banned either though since we need to move away from our dependency on Nintendo. OEM controllers will become more scarce and it's more of a "pay to win" if you need to get a new OEM controller (which will go up in price as the game gets older) every few months VS getting something like a box or Phob where almost every part of those controller can be sourced outside of Nintendo and their "When/if we feel like it" re-stocks of Gamecube controllers & and are just downright built to last longer.
The fact that it's easier to dash from one direction to the other more quickly means it's also easier to rush your input and make mistakes that never happen on gcc due to natural travel time. Minimization of human error isn't correct here, there's tradeoffs.
I think this video makes a ton of sense. Does anyone have any video or media that serves as a counterpoint to this? I don’t understand why anyone wouldn’t want to fix uncompetitive design flaws in the code or why fixing that wouldn’t help solve the controller Spider-Man meme that is melee
I actually think that having a wider range of shield dropping with correspondingly increased delay is a great way to make Melee more accessible to beginners, and it doesn't practically matter for higher level players who will strive for the 0-frame delay shield drops regardless. :) Edit: Also, the argument that "1.0 is better for those characters with magnitudinal up-Bs" is simply not logically sound. If a character which could use .9875 to benefit themselves no longer can, having access to maximum dash speed doesn't suddenly offset their loss, because every other character can access it as well.
What does 3 frame dbooc fix that isn't fixed by the extra coordinates? There's an inconsistency here in being upset that dashback only fix benefits some characters, but not caring about nerfing some character with full 1.0 cardinal. IMO no fixes should nerf characters, as thats not a fix at that point. One thing you're missing with the "Game designer" stance is that its not a hard science, its fuzzy and you need to go with what feels good, rather than what can technically be correct. which is why the ucf.84 fix is preferred. The purpose is for mechanics to be consistent, not necessarily "perfected"
if there are some things in my favorite game that don't act as they should, then i am in favor of reviewing them and potentially standardizing fixes for them in the near future
These are solid points, but it still ignores core issues. Even if you don't oppose the stated changes, you shouldn't have advantageous hardware while the authority is debating this standardization. If the Boxx purely exists just to 'force the question' of the benefit of these mechanics, it should be outright banned until the mechanics are standard, like how they stated in the Joshman Leffen video. I would also call for more transparency for the UCF team to showcase their decision-making when it comes to whether or not these mechanics and the pace of changing is an overall 'good thing' for the community. Personally I'm against rapid change, but I'm not against letting it evolve to what Hax has stated over time.
He didnt say the boxx exists purely to force the question, he said that by happenstance the boxx forces the question, but that the question should be asked anyway.
As purely a spectator and not a player, I am for software mods to fix some of these inconsistencies. It's not like you're playing Sailor Moon S on the SNES and having fun with friends clowning on how bad it can be. Significant sums of money are won and lost in front of an audience of hundreds of thousands (once online views are taken into account). These tournaments are bigger than many people realize. So having matches, sets, and even tournaments won or lost because some arbitrary bug happened just doesn't feel right. We enjoy Melee because some of it's original jank led to complex mechanics and fast paced action that required an awe inspiring amount of technical mastery and game knowledge. But now a point has been reached that mechanics usable in a tournament setting have been exhausted. Now matches are lost because this 22 year old software just splits at the seems where it's being tested. Like a missed input pull of the controller. If Melee wants to continue growing it's audience in the future, it needs to have changes made to the tournament setting itself. Things that encourage new players to pick up the game and grind out matches to get better. Without the needs to buy hyper specific hardware to compensate for some of the software flaws.
So well presented. My opinion doesn't matter in this arena but fwiw I am convinced after watching this. I don't keep up with the melee community anymore after they ostracized you but I hope you and this topic are getting the respect you deserve.
We already have to deal with hacked wiis, emulation and controller fixes in many instances. There's no reason we shouldn't continue to improve the game like this
I'm one of the rare ppl who thinks we should fix faulty mechanics, as well as fix everything broken with melee. Including unviable characters, missing hitboxes, and even adding new legal stages. I wish there was a melee committee to vote on patches and keep the game fresh and have less garbage tier characters.
Project M was that game for me. It kept all the good Melee characters true to how they played before, improved the low tiers, added a few missing from Brawl with massive buffs, and infinity legal stages since it's already a mod. Obviously the Melee oldheads were not fully convinced (some did enjoy it while it lasted) since it's far different from just being patched Melee. I find it better in the way combines the best of both Melee and Brawl but I wish the community hadn't let it die. They didn't want to stay underground by supporting mods that Nintendo doesn't like, look where that got them with this year's Smash World Tour shitstorm.
The only problem I see with this is how Nintendo would react to people modding melee indiscreetly. I would like these changes, but seeing how Nintendo reacts to mods, they probably won't happen.
Amazing video! I’m absolutely fascinated by this, and you can tell he’s extremely passionate and knowledgable about the subject. While I love technical videos like this, I’m completely unfamiliar with the context surrounding the controversy and mechanics/proposed fixes, and with this being presented at an expert level, a lot of it went over my head. Is there a longer video that explains these concepts more in-depth, or somewhere I could go to learn more?
Much better video! Although the mention of slideoffs as an example for SDI polling issues seems more buzzword based because typically for slideoffs you anticipate the hit during the knockdown and are holding it for quite some time before the hit even connects... So I doubt that polling related issues are very common with them specifically.
only thing im worried about as a low level player/spectator is do i reeeeeeally want to see sdi and tech chasing buffed? I know it makes it more consistent and is essentially a fix, but do we really want those things to be consistent? not in terms of just who benefits and if it's fair, but im worried buffing defensive and minimally interactive mechanics might make the game 10% lamer am i wrong to worry?
SDI is the exact opposite of a minimally interactive mechanic. It allows for the player getting hit to introduce mixups and many layers of counterplay that wouldn't exist otherwise.
When i figured out that the new gc controller didnt have analog triggers it was a no go, even if you dont need them for smash, id have been playing way more than just smash with it
Saying the B0XX needs nerfed because of how bad gamecube controllers are is the equivalent of salty old people getting mad that kids don't have it as bad as they did growing up.
no, the reason why most people complain is because a boxx is $250 and a GameCube controller is $40, Boxx is capable of preforming techniques that would be humanly impossible to do constsinatly with a controller, the boxx is supposed to be an alternative to regular controllers not a controller that is better in every way. btw hax is the one selling the box and 1.03 so of course he is gonna say their fine
@@Daniel-ej8llthen don’t use the box? You don’t HAVE to get a box to win. I swear the smash community is a bunch of babies, it’s why the FGC pushes back against them.
As a relatively noncompetitive melee player, I do get the perspective of "these 'fixes' are just buffing people that miss inputs." The polling solutions feel especially reasonable because of the luck factor that is associated with them. For shield drops, I wish Nintendo had just increased the range of the entire band instead of making it so ridiculously narrow. I don't see why spot dodge needs such a large window when 1.0 is an acceptable and reasonably easy-to-hit value. Unfortunately that change is basically impossible to make in a non-arbitrary way
Hey, while I appreciate the fact that you went out of your way to make your explanation shorter, I also really enjoy your longform content. So I think it would be a good idea to keep both versions uploaded, since I'm sure I'm not the only one who enjoys a thorough explanation of the mechanics of the game. This way the previous video doesn't become essentially Lost Media.
The other video was just unlisted, you can see the ID for it in another comment and just edit your URL to get to it (or find it in your browser history if you watched it before). I've also downloaded it with yt-dlp for preservation.
I honestly haven't played Melee since roughly Brawl's launch, but I still watch tournament highlights for Melee and Ultimate. That being said, what you're trying to accomplish with the push for making inputs more fair and consistent is something truly valuable. It really makes me wish Nintendo had a more Sega-like approach when it comes to adopting the progress that's been made thanks to community efforts.
I haven't played competitive melee in many years now, but I'm absolutely in favor of all these fixes being standardized. Good move to take feedback and remove the criticism of the UCF team's questionable decision-making, even though it was absolutely warranted.
You say those are bugs to be fixed I'd say those are features. People forgot that this is not a game designed to be competitive but a party game. At this point might as well balance the whole game includes buffing and nerfing characters.
well items are also a feature of the game, do you also agree we should play the game like the creators intended it or play it the way YOU prefer to play it?
first of all great work putting all this effort into figuring everything out for us second, i think we should fix this stuff but some of your changes like the 1.0 cardinal thing seem to be a bit of an overreach. maybe take it small steps at a time instead of adding giant areas? i bet you don't need that many extra for it to make a huge difference.
Is there another videogame with such a harcore fanbase that they don't even bother to name the game that they are talking about before they start the video... I stumbled on this video like, wtf is going on
i think the main important thing the community needs to address is a port to the pstriple. consider: super smash brothers would be ballin as shit on that triple. you'd be gettin dre, tupac, biggie, nas, Lil Jon. Def jam brothas.
I definitely think things have gone off the rails if the main barrier for the competitive scene is money. Paying to boost a character is greatly looked down upon. Why is paying a sizeable premium for a controller that gives the player a competitive advantage not?
I'm surprised no B0XX user has made an ADA argument. Some of them literally can't use a gamecube controller anymore due to pain and wrist surgeries from the repetitive motions over the years. It's basically a disability at that point, and these are controllers make the game accessible to them again.
unfortunately, while i do agree with the points given, the biggest obstacle to a movement like this is and has always been nintendo. if we make sweeping changes to the game and standardize even more modifications, that could potentially lead to more negative action coming from the company
The laundry list of fixes should be addressed in software. ADT, vertical throws, remainder - these are all things that make sense to include. However, I think you shoehorn in your last point without justification - that is, "oppose nerfs that fall outside of this scope (e.g. travel time nerfs)". You seem to make the following point: let's make the GC controller better instead of nerf the box. This seems like a good justification on the surface: before we do any nerfing, let's first fix all the faulty stuff, and then SEE if the performance will match. Only then should we consider the nerf. This, however, ignores the specifics of the proposed nerf. It is not the case that people were looking for any nerf in the ether that would make the boxx worse. No, indeed, the way boxx allows you to move is specifically the thing that people want changed. Even if you fixed the corridor issue, and microscopic range issue, the remainder issue, etc, you are ignoring the elephant in the room: on a boxx controller, you can do movement options that are HARD LOCKED from being done a GC controller. You CANNOT PHYSICALLY go from 1.0 to -1.0 in a frame on a GC-controller. This isn't something that is "easier on the boxx but still doable on the gcc", like ledgedash upsmash or shine oos, etc. This is an option in the game that one controller is capable of doing, and the other controller, regardless of player input, can never do. Movement is as important as hitboxes in your option set. Imagine there were specific hitboxes you could put out on the boxx that could not be done on a gcc - this would obviously be an egregious error that would need to be addressed. I am a fan of 1.03's mission. However, to truly equalize the option set of both controllers to be the same (a necessary axiom for any concept of 'controller fairness'), travel time must be addressed.
My beef with additional boxx nerfs is that there is no evidence that any functionality that's strictly better about it outweighs the added mental stack of playing on a 20 button controller, which is very rarely acknowledged, but is borne out through tournament results (or lack thereof). Even with travel time, it's rarely acknowledged that regardless of the 1-frame *output* of switching cardinal directions, the player's hands are not moving at the speed of light to create the input. Using more fingers for inputs + using digital is faster by some amount, but framing it as instantaneous isn't telling the whole story in my mind. Also shine OoS requires jumpsquat frames, a travel time nerf wouldn't effect this as far as I can reason? Lastly, I don't think additional boxx nerfs of almost any kind will actually achieve what seems to me to be the actual underlying goal, which is to make the community feel like boxx players aren't cheating. I think it would have virtually no effect on that.
I'd also be down for exploring travel time normalization after 1.03. At that point, digital joy inputs won't be patching over mechanics, and the trade-offs can be properly considered and tested.
@cohenkarnell7799 the players hands don't need to be moving at the " speed of light " for the disparity to emerge. Anyone who sees the boxx dash-dance can tell that there are movement options which are impossible on the gcc. Either some mod has to make it possible to do on the gcc or makes it also impossible to do on the boxx.
@@SirLaughter Re: your first sentence I acknowledge that in the next sentence in my reply lol: "Using more fingers for inputs + using digital is faster by some amount, but framing it as instantaneous isn't telling the whole story in my mind." >Anyone who sees the boxx dash-dance can tell that there are movement options which are impossible on the gcc People way, way overestimate their ability to tell this, and are often wrong when they suspect an online player of using rectangle. The difference is not as large as people intuit, because people's intuition sucks. Even one of the examples *you gave* has nothing to do with controller disparity. And you also didn't acknowledge my main point: There's literally zero evidence that *any* given controller disparity should require a fix, because tournament results simply don't bare out that you're given an advantage on boxx. Like at least wobbling was very obviously a singular strategy you could use to beat some better players than you, and even with that the community is starting to think that ban was reactionary.
I think rather than pushing 1.03 as THE solution, you’d find more success making the case for these changes by presenting 1.03 as an example of how and why these changes should be implemented. Also maybe bringing GCCs in line with the B0XX is not a compelling argument, I was much more swayed by the literal example of ADT shield costing Cody a match irl.
Point being, while I agree with you on almost every point and think you’re well intentioned, your association with both the Boxx and 1.03 hurt your objectively accurate argument for these fixes. Hope that makes sense
That’s not his argument tho, there’s mechanics that are broken in the game and we should fix those regardless. And since there’s a second controller archetype, before banning or drastic nerfs, fix gccs first
As an outsider looking in, I think it's silly to not wish to take matters into your own hands in order to make a game you love better, or at least give it a try first and let the pros decide which version they prefer playing on. Especially since you're not taking away the current Smash Bros Melee, it's still going to be available for those who truly want the purest experience.
.. so are you telling me that not only i suck, but my controller will keeping me sucking? god im glad i left melee when realised my low tier main is totally unviable lol
An issue I see brought up with 1.03 in discussion is the trouble it could cause for broadcasting tournaments online. The argument is that Nintendo has a history of cracking down on software modifications used in tournaments, and could issue a C&D to tournaments or have them taken off platforms like Twitch. Supposedly UCF gets around this by not being visibly detectable in game. As someone who doesn't play or watch much of any competitive Smash, do these arguments have much merit? If so, is there a way to solve for these problens in 1.03?
Nintendo has a history of killing it's competitive scenes even when no software modification is involved either due to how defensive they are of their IP or by sheer incompetence. Nintendo has dropped the ball multiple times at this point and I don't see it changing.
I think accessibility (including financial accessibility) is the higher goal, therefore controller equality is the higher goal. Fundamentally, competitive integrity is a way to maintain the pleasure of the sport, but it is not the end goal in itself. It's kind of a tired truism at this point, but you can have the most rigidly balanced, skill-based game that no-one plays because it has no freshness or excitement. Fortunately, both of these values tend to align. Z-jump has nothing to do with the controller lottery and from what I've seen is a fairly uncontroversial modification to the game. This should be the paradigm for all modifications to the game. Do people like it? Is it easy to implement for organized play? Does it make the game more consistent and less taxing to play, without sacrificing meaningful competitive advantages? Then there is no reason why it shouldn't be standardized. edit: I guess z-jump could be part of the "modernizing the game", but I think "modernizing" is a pretty vague term in general. Modern fighting games have an input buffer, I doubt melee ever will, for example.
The last version of this video being long and unscripted really hindered the point you tried to get across, making it feel like you were just ranting about UCF for almost an hour. This feels a lot more focused, and I would definitely agree that OEM Controllers need to be brought up to be made more standardized and modernized
