The Men Are Not Okay... // Male Drift And Dating 

Hey y'all! Realized we never defined male drift! "men turning away from college, dropping out of the work force or failing to look after their health" ARTICLE THIS EPISODE IS BASED ON: www.nytimes.com/2023/11/11/opinion/marriage-women-men-dating.html?unlocked_article_code=1.CE0.4eAq.W3_IQBXjBjR5&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare MORE ON MALE DRIFT: www.wbur.org/onpoint/2022/11/11/richard-reeves-gender-equality-boys-school-men

What’s interesting is I was just having this conversation with a guy I’m dating. I remember he was mentioning certain “friends” of his but immediately after he would mention all these things about them that he didn’t like. After a while I just asked him straight “How are you picking your friends?” He realized that he wasn’t really picking friendships based off of his ability to be vulnerable in them. He was just staying friends with people he had always known. That was wild to me because so many of my friendships are more intimate and deep. I think it’s linked to men not being taught how to develop stronger emotional intelligence as they age. They’re taught other things but those things don’t necessarily make them a good partner in woman’s eyes, more so a “good man” in other men’s eyes.

I'm a woman in my 50s. If a guy I barely knew asked me a sexually explicit question, I wouldn't talk to them again.

I usually avoid conversations on relationships and dating like the plague because it’s exhausting, but y’all have sense, so I knew this conversation would be fun, if not also insightful. Hallease said it best, “Patriarchy sucks for everyone.” And it truly does. I think marriage as it’s usually presented to us is designed to largely benefit cishet men. Men aren’t socialized, in general, to learn important life skills like cooking and cleaning because it’s assumed that one day they’ll have a wife to do that for them. And cishet women are socialized to derive such a strong sense of self from marriage and motherhood that it can be hard to develop a sense of who you are as a woman without those things. And folks projecting insecurities onto you DOES NOT HELP. I don’t think marriage or children are bad, but I think it’s easy for women to end up with a pretty raw deal - working all day then coming home to clean, take care of the kids, and feed your family with a husband…chile #MarriedSingleMoms. Plus, given the lack of social safety nets in this country (paid parental leave, affordable child care, quality public education, unequal pay, etc.), I can see why some women might be less inclined to pursue marriage. “How does marrying you improve my life?” is a question I got from a friend in her 50s (I'm in my 30s). She never married because the men she dated couldn’t give her an answer that sounded better than her already pretty good life as a single woman. I am single and haven’t dated in over two years because peace of mind lol… But jokes aside, taking a step back has allowed me to get clear on what I offer and what I'd like in a partner. I hope to find them one day, but also no love loss if I don't. Getting married is but one way to live, and I am glad to have learned about many other ways to do life and have it be amazing.

Two things: I honestly believe marriage helps both men and women become adults. I was married young (by today’s standards) at 22. We didn’t know what we were doing, nor did we have great examples, but what marriage did was give us a partner to learn with and to be gracious toward. We failed at *so many things*, but grew together within the safety of our marriage. Dare I say it’s kinda the point 🫣 For us at least. We’re there to hold space for each other as we morph into who we want to be separately and together. On the “men not doing ok” topic I think we can expand that to people. I have three boys and I believe it is my husband’s and my responsibility to raise them into adults. That means teaching self care: basic cooking, cleaning, money management, etc. I don’t see that happening much within families. What we want is our boys to have basics down to make it a bit easier for them if they choose to marry, while fully understanding that marriage will still take lots of work for them. Marriage has been struggle, growth, ease over and over again. After 15 years the times of ease lasts longer and longer, though 💕

Unique perspective time! I live in Atlanta too, and I'm a trans masc individual. Me and my best friend BOTH are. We've recently gone into the dating scene with cis men (which is new territory for me, I usually date cis women, queer femmes). We've had the worse time trying to connect with men. We find they lack authenticity. It seems to me that they really don't have much of an idea WHO they are, like down to their core. And when I ask, "what would be the best way for someone to connect with you, someone who was trying to get to know you.", they usually have no idea. It seems the mass majority are fine just having sex and not interested in challenging themselves to be more for their families, friends or romantic partners. Just doing enough, just getting by seems to be fine and for the most part, it seems most folks have accepted that from them. Since then, I've completely divested from dating men because it personally doesn't make sense to involve myself with emotionally stunted individuals when I can very well date people who can show up for me the way that I need. My BF still has sex with them from time to time but, still finds it difficult to deal with them, even then. I'm really worried for my people who feel like dating cis men is their only choice, it seems like the only thing men listen to is other men, and even then - what are THOSE men saying? Rarely anything impactful, with depth and accountability in mind. Anyways, LOVE the podcast!

Mr. Hallease saying "perirectal" KILLED me. 😆 Thank y'all for this really nuanced (and entertaining) discussion!

This was a great segment. It's refreshing to hear a man's perspective that isn't laced with toxicity. My main takeaway is this - we need to show each other a little more grace. No woman has all her ish figured out (and if she does, it's probably rooted in trauma and she needs to learn to let go a bit more). And neither does any man. I notice ppl try to force others to become their ideal "dream board" partner and that isn't healthy. I doubt many of us would appriciate a stranger walking into our lives and demanding we bend (aka mould) to their will because apparently, that's the definition of "love"? How I see it is this, men and women - date ppl who want the same thing as you (and if you don't know what you want, you're clearly not ready to date and aren't any better than a man who doesn't know how to make his bed or do his laundry). Once it became clear you both (or however many ppl involved in the relationship) aren't meshing well - keep it stepping and go your separate ways. There're 8 BILLION people in earth. Surely, everyone can't be terrible?

I'm 39-year-old female and I date a 45-year-old male. I told my partner that sometimes it seems like he's living his life as if he's 21 years old still. He has a studio apartment in San Francisco that je moved to afyer college (which I believe is really the reason why he could maintain his current lifestyle. His rent is less than $1,000 a month due to rent control in one of the world's most expensive cities. This is unheard of so he never wanted to move which never required him to earn more salary at work because of his locked in low rent), he worked at the same job in the same role since his 20's; he does like to play video games (He used to be an extreme gamer, but about 2 years before we met he decreased that because he realized that's probably not going to help him land a partner which was correct!), he does like to partake in Mary Jane sometimes (But he self-recognized that he would need to likely decrease that also), he lives in the same place he lived when he was in his twenties, he dresses in the same general style, and he has the same vehicle. I'm opposite of that, very driven, I've moved around a lot for grad school etc . He's a good man and I love him and I would like to make a life with him; his emotional maturity is off the charts and he does take initiative to cook us dinner and clean up without being asked when we are together. I won't need to say "can you wash the dishes?" Or "can you cook dinner tonight" when hes over my place. He will just do it. ❤. He's pretty subpar at cleaning when he's in his own place however. Yeeps! We've had conversations about, why do you feel it's acceptable to live this same life that you've been living for 2 decades without working toward having a bit more? He says he's just comfortable and it's worked well for him. But now he realizes because he didn't lay the foundation of upward mobility when he was younger, that puts him a bit behind now that he has a partner he plans to grow with. He didn't think, well one day I hope to have a girlfriend/wife so let me work on getting a larger place so that we can both be comfortable. He didn't think one day I hope to have a girlfriend/wife so let me work on earning a higher wage at work so that I have enough money to take care of my family. He was really just like this is working for me right now so I will maintain this. I've always been the opposite. I anticipate one day I'll have these things so let me prepare for my future in that way now. He's also the child of immigrants and he was the firstborn child and the only boy; I believe that plays a part in it too. We've been together 3 years and he's made wonderful progress, partially because he has really wanted a long-term relationship and he's willing to do the work to make that work; also he's ready now to make these changes whereas a few years ago he wasn't really interested in changing his lifestyle so he did not. Ultimately however I think Men will do what women allow them to get away with. Many women still date men who are immature, who have no goals, who don't even really have basic things like good hygiene sometimes. If men don't have to change, then a lot of times why would they bother to? I don't think this is just a men and women thing, I think this is a certain people thing, but there seems to be an acceptance of men doing less and and expectation that women should be completely fine with this. If there's no reason for people to change a lot of times people won't do it. Men can still get oodles of women and be nasty and gross and immature. They can still get women to cook for them not knowing how to cook themselves. I think it's a two-sided approach to fix this. On one side it's teaching men to be more self-reliant, and mature so that they choose to make these personal life improvements on their own without being forced , the same way that many women do on out own; on the other hand I think it's important for women to maintain standards for their partners. If women collectively said I'm not going to date a man that's messy or I'm not going to date a man who can't do basic cooking skills, then men would be forced to change their behavior because men want women (assuming these are heterosexual relationships). But change doesn't happen for many if it's not required to.

LMAO! Mr. Hallease miming your words made me giggle outloud. 😅 + that just made my day. thank you. 🖤✊🏾 😊

This is a really great conversation. Still listening but just wanted to let you guys know I appreciate it!

As a queer person I still listen/watch this podcast because we're all connected. One group's struggles very much spill over, especially for people that realize they're queer later on, while dragging the baggage of cishet dating behind them. I'm a person that loves men (trans,cis,and those inbetween) so I've seen a lot of the problems spoken of here in a wild forms. Patriarchy is always at the root and core of the problems. The means of socializing boys and the male role models easily found are tools of patriarchy. It gives a lot of men the expectations that they just have to be a bread winning emotionally distant or absent figurehead of their castle and that's enough contribution for a lifetime, dust hands, feet up. It's so annoying lmao. A lot of men think that physical labor is all they need to contribute to a relationship because that's all they see on tv, movies, media etc. Man fights giant robot then gets kiss from girl. That's all they need to do. And as a black person, theres a lot to say about the absence of fathers, the emotional distance of fathers, and the policing of behaviors deemed "feminine" by hyper masculine trauma, carried over from literal slavery, in a black household. Theres a piece of intersectionality that cant be understated. And Latinos have that Spaniard Machismo to fight against. Patriarchy forms. All of it. Plus I think some people, when given the opportunity to be lazy and sit and collect their "winnings" with little effort, they'll just do that. Working is hard. Why work? And for the buttstuff piece. Listen. Sexual compatibility is weighed more heavily for some people than others. Sex on a first date is more common than is talked about and theres nothing wrong with that, imo. Some people like to know eachother more sexually to start, which leads to openness in other aspects. If it's not ones way, that's ok! Saying "that's not for me" then moving on with ones life is ok. Plus it's good they talked about butt stuff to start because, as far as I'm concerned, it helps highlight the expectations of what the other person wants. If that's too fast, its easier to move on. If that's completely off the table, then it's known, so one can move on. I think talking about sex is important, personally. Especially since it's just sex. Humans do it (or not if they're asexual) and it's just another activity. I run from people that treat it as some weird taboo topic of discussion. Like. That's more strange to me and tells me they're going to have weird vibes around it lol.

I definitely find this interesting because it's been racking my brain as to why I keep attracting men that honestly don't have all their sh** together. They tend to have unresolved issues or have no concept of emotional intelligence. Not that you need to be 100% but geez 👀👀 I'm 36, full time software engineer, content creator, live on my own, take care of my furbabies, I'm cute and I'm definitely ready for a relationship. But I'm just not willing to be someone's Mom and make excuses for their behavior. 💅🏾

Guys, I feel like there was more to talk about! Loved the vibe. Loved the advice. Loved the reflections. Just... more time.. but do you! I'm just a random avatar on the internet.. Y'all are goals

Commenting for engagement. Been watching this pod as y'all post in and out some rough times in life. Thanks for a valuable dialogue!

Lol at the interlude interpretive dance 😂 Hallease “you know what I’m sayin?” Mr Hallease **nods sagely**

Three years ago I retired from dating… I don’t have the emotional lift at 38 tolerate the men’s deficiencies and low emotional intelligence. 15:30 there’s good men out there but the law of probability says I’ll end up with a dud.

I just love your work. I agree with another comment, has Mr. Halease considered started is own channel? He has a great personality and you can tell he really puts thought into his comments.

It can be really hard to find a valuable dating partner, for women, and for men I guess too. Even at age brackets reaching close to the area of 40 when you would think you can expect more maturity, commitment, etc. you still do not get it. But also those more experienced men know better what to say to get a woman, like all the good stuff about being emotionally secure, understanding that relationships (in bedroom action part especially) need time to adjust, etc, all the sweet staff you would want to hear (speaking from woman's perspective), but even more - see in action. And this is where it fails. Men became good at talking, at declarations, like they know what women want to hear in the era of widespreaded dating gurus' advices, but they still don't show all of that in their actual behaviour. It is just ego talking.

wait! its been a while since i tapped in here, can i just say this set up is just- it looks fucking good!! and the lighting OKAYYYY damn i really love it just a Hallease technical appreciation post thanks for coming to my ted talk

I think that the internet has let men down in a way. It is creating a type of dysmorphia and distorted expectations.

For me its the stunning, profoundly disturbing lack of empathy men have for women especially married women that amazes me. Men can watch their partners work full time, come home and do all the household chores, raise the kids and take care of him and not lift one finger to help. Men are more concerned with maintaining the gender roles than they are with the financial, physical, mental and emotional well being of their partners.....Men used being brought up that way is a cop out. It's just a lack of empathy on the part of men. If men have no empathy for their partners or wives and they care more about maintaining their ridiculous gender roles than the do about their wives well being, how do you love someone without having empathy for them?

You guys are so adorable 😊😊😊😊 Does Mr. Hallease have his own channels? If not, he needs to.

@28:15 Maybe this question you asked is the key to “curing” male drift. Authentic healthy relationships is a real life goal. Having people that they can be honest with in healthy ways may build some necessary maturity. Learn to love onseself and heal one’s own trauma and miseducation. That’s it!

Your comment section is so insightful and engaging!! That says so much about you and your content. ✨️ I just found you, your valuable content would already lend itself to a 'subscribe'...your engaging comment section is like the espresso shot poured over the refined gelato for the oh so satisfying sensory experience of an affogato!! 🌠

6:06 not men dating now, they don’t care 😂 I have just given up on dating. Dating sites have made men think the options are endless, they don’t even try. It’s a waste of my time. I just decided to bow out ( it’s been 3 years now, I’m 29)

This was too sweet. Hi from Trinidad! Newly subscribed.

I think it would be cool for Chris to have his own podcast and be able to develop his thoughts and online identity independently at times, as Hallease is able to. It would be cool to see him interact with / interview folks himself. If this is already a thing, my bad for not knowing but please mention and promote it if it is.❤

My heartbreak and disappointment is too fresh to listen to this yet, but I'mma still Like 👍🏾 and comment ✍🏾 to support! 😀👌🏾

"tongue to peri-rectal area play"

😊😊😊I so enjoy y'all, you are enlightening, delightful and entertaining Please don't stay away soooo long. God Bless💕💕💕💕🙏🙏🙏🙏

Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Well said 🤷🏾‍♀️

This is wild 10 minutes in 😂

Another perspective: I agree patriarchy led to women historically excluded from workplace and treated similar to property. Then, a woman’s role was to stay at home, raise kids, manage home. Prior women’s rights advocates helped change that narrative. I can say patriarchy created the problem and I try to be cautious to avoid blaming patriarchy for why it has persisted as a preference for some people. Anyone who chooses those old gender roles is doing so by choice right now and not because of the patriarchy. Some gender role conditioning was transferred from generation to generation. We seem to expect men to be accountable and develop household skills regardless of what society has conditioned them yet we do not frequently hold women accountable to learn to prioritize their needs regardless of how society conditioned them. I think choosing those roles now is a choice and not due to patriarchy. Regarding butt stuff: I consider sexual compatibility to be very essential. I meet any potential partners on dating apps and review a mini “yes no maybe” list once we start chatting and definitely before a first date. I do that because a person’s character is irrelevant if we are not sexually compatible. I will never want my partner to do anything with me sexually “because they love me” and I never want them to expect the same from me. I would rather not waste each other’s time when we are not compatible. We usually share our sexual nonnegotiable and politely go our separate ways if incompatible.

Thank you for sharing the nytimes article for free

21:15 is me all. day. long! I haven't been fortunate enough to find someone as mature as Chris. But what you are 👏not 👏going 👏 to 👏 do is come at me crazy! 💯 I grew up having to put famiy in place and you will be next but with walking papers! Clearly, I stay single... 😆

Thank you for acknowledging it’s a lack of empathy someone is man enough to admit!!

Love the podcast 😊

I read this paper on how the patriarchy doesn’t exist as a structure for controlling women- we are not the point of the patriarchy, we are merely a tool within it. The patriarchy exists because men fear other men. The whole point is to create hierarchies and rules that will protect men from stronger men who might dominate them, who can take things from them and do them harm. The thing men fear the most is being dominated by another man. (On a side note I also like to take note of the differences in reverence toward hierarchies that you see men have vs what is respected by women; a man will uphold a chain of command he disagrees with or yield to a superior within an arbitrary system of power, whereas a woman burn that sh!t to the ground if she thinks it’s stupid) So men have, in order to protect themselves from other men, created systems where you can immediately assess and respect rank, everything we value and enforce through systems in our patriarchal societies are tools of measuring/signaling and protecting rank. Athleticism has a very clear and undeniable system of ranking. Competition has winners and losers and is measured and defended. We have currency, capitalism- think about the high end things men value, they are all signals to other men that can be immediately assessed: vehicles, expensive tech, branded clothing, sneakers- it’s much more homogenized than not, it’s Porsches and Jordans and Rolexes. It’s ps5s and yachts and AirPods Max. It’s always been pelts, trophies, weapons and fleets with little variety. It hasn’t changed because changing it is seen as an attack on the safety within the whole system, it threatens men on an existential level and renders them powerless against the stronger men who might wish to dominate them . Another paper I read talked about how men see meeting new men as potential allies (is this someone that will help me win) whereas women see new women as potential enemies (is this someone who will ensure that I lose) and I think this is because in a patriarchy, women cannot survive on our merit/ability/effort alone, we almost always are forced to depend on (at least in part) the fact that a man with power likes or values us enough (as a tool elevating their own status) to even allow us to participate. We have so few options because a patriarchy only has so many metrics where women are universally assigned value, and sadly those metrics are not ones we can achieve or earn ourselves in the way men can. We are almost always forced to determine our entire existence on how well we were able to leverage our youth/beauty/bodies in a brief window of time so that we might even be permitted to enter into the patriarchy to play the game in the first place. Even then, as we see time and time again, if we are permitted to achieve things traditionally valued in the patriarchy, we are never seen as allies, teammates, comrades… only as prizes, assets, responsibilities or obstacles. As the patriarchy begins to show cracks, older men are panicking and younger men are becoming disillusioned, despondent, nihilistic. What used to be a guaranteed ticket into a system that had winners and losers has now become something more nebulous. Women are able to talk to one another now, and with a rise in access to birth control and education the patriarchy didn’t get to benefit from the usual isolation that young motherhood provides. We have a window where we are able to be heard from within the patriarchy and what used to keep us out & chained to the whims of one man for our survival during this window became a choice we figured out how to opt out of, and those that were able to opt out of it got to use their voice, their access, to infiltrate the system. So we’ve used their own rules to challenge the system from the inside, since to deny us that would be to deny the system, so either way our very voice within it shows the patriarchy to be bullsh!t. The best thing we can do for ourselves is to uplift and protect other women, and forgive men for building the patriarchy but expect more from them as we tear it down. Realize that even a crumbling power structure is still a power structure. What was the question again?

Girl...that HPV (Gardisil?) vaccine. Idk about anyone else but that vaccine was easily the most painful one I've ever had. It literally felt like cold, metal shooting down my arm when it was administered. Then I had to go back for a second dose! 😩 Maybe even a third one, I can't remember but I do remember the controversy around that vaccine when it was introduced to the public . I felt it was so over the top and sanctimonious. People really weren't seeing the forrest for the trees.

I got both vax shots today 😢 one in each arm

I like the mugs were did you get them ?

I hear the writer jumping out. Baby birds and nests, casting nets and rocks. Love it!

15:30 why are men ok with being seen as deficient??? That's a question there.

What is male drift? I couldn't find it on Google

Good conversations family. Here is an old, inpopular but true fact, women are always empowered not to become single mothers. It starts with concerted efforts to educate our daughters and sons to learn first to become wives and husbands before engaging in sex. Our society's normalization of single motherhood doesn't discourage premarital sex perhaps out of fear of laying shame/blame on the already stressed single mother or something. It's a vicious cycle. Optimally children should be raised by a mature, wise loving mother and father who themselves were raised by the same. Premarital sex is what opens women, and men to single parenthood. But not too many are willing to accept self restraint. Our young men and women need adulthood training classes that focus on becoming skilled at creating a home with spouce, physical labor in and around the home courtship, learning how to love each other and care for their children, effective commucation, problem resolution, first aid, infant-teencare, making time for self care and running a happy home etc. We don't really know how to human very well and we need God to help us all.

Thanks for the video. First COVID 19, now this. I am not a germophobe, but this is too much. I heard comedians talking about this sexual practice, but I thought it was just the same joke as white people putting raisins in their potato salad (not true). I am glad that I don't date anymore. Marriage is hard, but dating is crazy.

6:41 She’s in her 50’s? ITS BEEN OVER FOR 20 YEARS? wagwan?

5:42 Driven? No men don’t want that. Men want submissive, cooperative, quiet & pretty.

Chris was so emotionally intelligent when it came to dismantling weaponized incompetence in men. There's soooo much to unpack on the topic of men not doing okay recently, especially when it comes to dating. The conflation of the digital age with increasing social isolation, presents the paradox of infinite options yet no depth or work deemed necessary to respectfully and empathetically deal with women. There's a social emotional stunting when it comes to men and women are not putting up with it anymore. Patriarchy benefits no one, not even the ones who created it.

This is a serious confab, y’all.

😂😂❤️

HA!!!

So when are you all going to have a baby????