No need to throw anything :) I am subscribed to britishmuzzleloaders, inrangetv and forgotten weapons and I equally enjoy their content. I wouldn´t be surprised if a significant number of the viewers of these channels overlapped.
When one of my students came with "eww, grouping isnt that good", i came back with "is it dead ? yes ? good !". And it's all that matters with "combat" shooting practices ! Hit first !
Wonderful vid, Rob. Great modern demonstration of how the Ross was a fine target rifle but not well suited to the battlefield. Herbert McBride detailed this very well in his book A Rifleman Went to War.
Thanks Rob, this is really interesting to see. My maternal grandfather, Don Wilden, left his job on the railways to serve with the British Army in France from 1914-18. As a railwayman, they assigned him to the Royal Army Service Corps and kept him busy running railways and canal transport operations. So he did not see front line service, but was expected to carry a rifle nonetheless. Of all the rifles issue to him, he told me that the Ross was his favourite. I assume he would have received basic range training with all of them and so would have experienced them more from the perspective of target shooting than combat use.
I really enjoy your vid's. I too have a Ross mkIII. I believe that with all the problems it had, the magazine and loading issues were largely ignored. When I load from chargers I have the same issue, as well as sometimes the third round rim gets caught on the holes in the bottom of the charger, but I have no issue with the same chargers in my No. 4. I've glues a strip of tin from a pop can to the bottom of the charger to solve that problem. It also has magazine that you can't take apart to do maintenance or cleaning on, other than change the feed lips, if you can find some. But still a joy to shoot.
it is interesting that the Canadian Ross and the British P14, show a lot of parallels. Both adopted right as the war kicked off, before proper development could be finished on both. Both with their front locking choked on out of spec rushed production 303. Where the rear locking enfields would accommodate it. Both were honestly worthy designs that were rushed into service with out of spec ammo. Look at the P14, the Americans finished the development on it, and honestly ended up with a better rifle (the M1917) then the M1903 springfield.
I would say the difference between the P14 and the Ross was, that the P14 was better engineered and thought through. The locking lugs don't have much to do with the tolerance for bad ammunition, the chamber spec does. So P14's would have tolerated shoddy ammo with losser chambers. Metallurgy was fine. The Ross would have suffered its myriad of other problems regardless of chamber spec.
@@theHSPCproject I would add to that the fact that the P14 was based off of the proven Mauser design, so it had more refinement from the get-go compared to the Ross.
So much of the issues are intertwined. Without looking at them all together the understanding is not complete. Metallurgy and the design spec and tolerances were in bed with each other...
Very nice score on obtaining the Ross, Rob. Congratulations, they're getting as hard to find as rocking horse poop in the last few years, not to mention the price tag. And also a thumbs up for another video presentation of near professional quality. Some of the best informative and most entertaining videos on RU-vid. Re your comments on brass issues and the need to take reloading steps to return them to the norm. As you're clearly aware, even brass neck sized in a Lee collet die is eventually going to need a trip into a full length sizing die to bump the shoulder back to whatever crush fit on chambering you're looking for. More of a bump = more subsequent firings before the next bump. Small bump = less working of brass, longer case life, fewer reloads before the need for a shoulder bump. I assume you don't segregate all your brass by rifle, but instead neck size and then at some point subsequently shoulder bump so that the resulting reloads will chamber in any of your .303 rifles. If so, when it comes time to start a new batch of empty brass, taking the time to expand the necks on them, then resize the neck to a light crush fit on bolt closing in your rifle with the tightest chamber, leaving a false shoulder for first firing, will pay off in the end. You'll also get better performance (and case life) over the lifetime of the brass if you start with Prvi Partisan, and anneal your case necks every three or four firings, especially before giving your cases a shoulder bump. I do mine every time because it only takes a few seconds each, but just before each shoulder bump might be just as good as well. An alcohol laboratory spirit lamp and bottle of 99% Isopropyl Alcohol (IPA) will only set you back about $15 - $20 and a visit to a couple of Lower Mainland stores or Amazon.ca. Uniform case neck tension may also noticeably improve the figure of merit for your rifles' grouping ability, if you get interested in any of the vintage military rifle competition. Results (obviously) vary from rifle to rifle. I use a Lyman 33 M die (because that's what I originally got decades ago), but now you can do the same with the less expensive and excellent NOE neck expanding spuds of the same size - the same neck expanders are available in various diameters to precisely neck expand your necks for the best fit with your cast bullets' finished size. Budget Shooter Supply in Surrey has the Privi Partisan cases (and I think sometimes also Privi's replica 174 gr. MkVII ball bullets, which are very inexpensive in comparison to Sierra's Matchkings and group very well in most .303s). And if you're not powder coating instead of lubing by now, you might want to give that a try. I don't even use lube anymore on my Webley replica hollowbase bullets of pure lead, cast in an RCBS mould that gives the hollow base. Just a whisk in powder paint coat and then onto some parchment paper and a 25 minute cook in a 450 F. oven. No more grease, wax, etc. Best...
Hi there. I have sets of brass for all my rifles. All the brass used in the SMLE is Igman and is on its 10th firing or so. I'm slowly working through the cache and bumping them back...
@@britishmuzzleloaders Good decision on separate lots of brass for each rifle; many with multiple rifles won't bother doing that. I'm not familiar with the brass you mentioned, but you must be doing your resizing/bumping right if you're at 10 reloads and counting. At that rate, if you anneal to avoid work hardened case necks, it would be interesting to hear how many reloads/shoulder bumps you get before you start getting split case necks. Anyways, as always, great educational video.
Which has nothing to do with shooting or musketry so probably won't appear on the Channel as such, sorry....... in passing, at some point it may get a mention.
I use a combination of a Redding body die and a Lee neck size collet die to resize my .303 brass. Works well but adds another step in the process, bump sizing with a fiddled FL sizing die works too. Doubt I'm telling you anything you didn't already know! Great video, thanks for the amount of work you put into these.
My 1914 Ross MK III has the same issues with charger loading. I certainly take it to be a design flaw, not your individual rifle. Another great video, well done.
Great video as always. I've heard that bullets stuck in trees can be propelled by saws during felling of the tree or in the sawmill. Perhaps it would be a good idea to put the targets on a stand in front of ground instead of a tree.
In my salad days, I pulled lumber on the green chain of the sawmill in town. In an area where many businesses shut down for the opening day of elk season, it was not uncommon to see a board on the chain where the head saw, and then the planer, had neatly created a perfectly cross-sectioned bullet. Even if a tree were dropped with a faller's chainsaw rather than by a feller buncher, the faller would barely notice hitting a bullet. Maybe a bunch of them. Mostly he'd be pissed if he noticed that the chain would need sharpening sooner than usual.
I have had a few Mk. III Rosses, and none of them fed reliably from chargers. Even the best chargers I own, were at best 70% reliable. You’re correct, I think, in your assessment of the guide being too high. Being at an angle seems to compound the issue, plus the thing just doesn’t seem to hold the charger steady.
A comparison between the Ross and the Pattern 14 would be interesting. Both are long, heavy barreled rifles meant to encourage accuracy. Both were chambered in .303 despite being intended for hotter rounds. Both held five rounds. Both had aperture rear sights and protected front sights. Both were disliked by troops at the time for being too long and heavy. Both have seen a resurgence in popularity since then. Both were were adapted to 30-06, issued to the US Army, and are now widely available on the US market. What? My cheap 30-06 Ross is just my own fantasy? Damn.
Ive never shot a ross but have handled a few and dang that bolt throw empty is nice. Smooth. But ive never even cycled snap caps or live rounds through one. The sights are excellent in my opinion and honestly the feel of the rifle seems good to me.
The magazine is "a bit complex" ?! that's some pretty impressive understatement. Two swing arms with different pivot points guiding the follower which is powered by a coil spring in a pivoting, telescopic guide.
@@britishmuzzleloaders My Ross came with considerable "plum patina" covering the receiver so I boiled and carded it. Fortunately, the magazine wasn't rusty as well since it might as well be a clock in a bottle.
@@britishmuzzleloaders Indeed! I had it out today and the chargers run smooth if the rims are staggered. I found there's a bit of a roll to it and they sloop in most gratifyingly. Rimlock though! Being a Lee Enfield shooter, I didn't know what it was at first. It was a small sample of 70rnds so I'm not sure if it was from me being sloppy or if it's a random hazard of charger loading the Ross.
👍. To start with I love my Ross rifle, but when the Ross rifle was manufactured the chambers were made entirely too tight, like for target shooting this caused a significant problem, and then when they reamed out the chambers they actually made them too large that was my finding, the fact is I thoroughly enjoy having and shooting my Ross rifle ! PS. I enjoyed the video very much and I appreciate your Time dedicated to detail !
Well researched and informative, an excellent review. The ammunition issue (reloads) actually gives a better test than new, ammunition quality during the first world war was too often poor.
I missed a couple of opportunities to get a Mk III Ross as they sold within minutes of posting despite not being cheap. I’ll get one if I’m fast enough next time.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Old school rifles, revolvers, pistols, and MGs just have a certain beauty about their designs that modern weapons lack.
I love your videos and have been following along for years ! I recently acquired a LSA no1 triple star 1906 if that is something you are interested in having on.
Good video, looking forward to watching the rest of the series. In reloading .303 you neck size I presume? As a aside I have had issues using Sellier & Berlot .303 cases stretching after the 1st firing but no problem with 4 other brands of brass .....
Sellier & Berlot, at least as far as .303 British cases, are bottom of the barrel (IMHO after 45 years of reloading .303 Brit and others). I would suggest that Privi Partisan is currently the gold standard for .303 brass. Particularly when assuming you want a case rim thickness as close as possible to that of the MkVII ball ammunition. Selliers and others are much thinner - and that is going to be the start of your problems. But with any new brass, if you first expand the case mouth with a 31 M die (or similar) from Lyman or NOE, and then start full length resizing until it will finally chamber with a crush fit, the false shoulder you have created on the case will support the case with contact on the bolt face at the rear and false shoulder contact at the front of the chamber. Essentially, you are no longer using the rim for headspacing, but the shoulder instead, just like .308 Winchester. And when fired, the only way the case can expand is radially outwards. You end up with fire formed brass. If you don't mix it between multiple .303 rifles, that is a good thing. Stick with neck sizing with a Lee Collet Die (one of the few good things they make) until, like Rob mentions in his video, it is time to use the full length sizing die to bump the shoulder back again. If you didn't change your die from when you adjusted it to push back the false shoulder until you had a slight crush fit, no further adjustments need to be done.
Just curious as to why you chose to use your custom laods for the SMLE and standard mk7 for the Ross? Was it out of concern for the rifle or something else?
@@britishmuzzleloaders thats understandable. I apreaciate the response and hope you don't think I was being indignant. I was just curious if the ammunition was an issue of operation. Again thank you and I look forward to more of your videos
@@britishmuzzleloaders I am sure you will get it figured out! You seem on the up and up with it!! If you work out anything good, let me know. I have a Ross Mark III B. Would love to start making my own rounds. She is getting expensive to feed otherwise haha!
@@britishmuzzleloaders I expected a gruff voice, rough like sandpaper yet smooth to the ears. Not to say your voice isn't as pleasurable, though, but moreso in a cool history teacher sort of way.
Rob, have you tried using a Mk1 or Mk2 charger in the Ross? I have noticed you are using Mk4 chargers. I'd be interested in seeing if it loads better with the earlier charges.
How do you put up with shooting Prone so much? I find it quite uncomfortable after around 10-15 rounds Is it a technique of holding it differently or just not being a wuss? Thanks 🙏🏻
@@britishmuzzleloaders Perhaps it is just me then 😅 I always seem to walk away from a prone shoot with a sore collarbone Oh well perhaps I should just practice more Thanks! 😁
I have issues loading my ross from chargers. I'll usually get 2, maybe 3 in and then the other 2 just splay to the sides like an SKS charger. I wonder if it's something to do with needing to keep the rounds in line.
Great Videos! QUESTION: Im having a heck of a time finding the right size percussion caps for my P53 Enfield Reproduction. Can you recommend any shops that carry? (Im in Alberta)
Canadian pay was substantially higher in both world wars. A Canadian private in 1914 had a base pay of about $1.00 CAD per day, a British line infantry private’s base pay was about $0.25 CAD per day. Of course there were allowances and rewards on top of that, not to mention cost of living for those supporting families back home, and I suspect the British pay was typically closer to the Canadian than the base, but definitely lower. In WWII the pay difference nearly lead to a mutiny. The Royal Canadian Navy provided the bulk of the crew of HMS Nabob while the British provided some specialized roles (especially engineering) and aircrews so that Canada could familiarize itself with Carrier operations before getting one of its own. However since it was a Royal Navy vessel, the crew were paid at British rates. With the Canadian crew receiving a significant pay cut for the posting there were desertions and the crew was near mutiny the Captain travelled to Ottawa from Norfolk, Virginia and got the Canadian government to pay the entire crew (Canadian and British alike) the Canadian pay rates. Of course the ship was torpedoed and written off less than a month after joining the Fleet at Scapa Flow
Have you ever had head separations in your Enfield rifles ? I have had 3 all with S+B brass after reloading 1 too many times. I'm assuming you down load with the lead bullets.
The start of your problem is probably the Selliers brass. The gold standard for .303 British brass these days is Privi Partisan, made by our old friends over in Serbia. It has a rim thickness that is closest to the original MkVII ball ammunition that the chambers were cut for. I have measured many of them from ball ammo to commercial cases from many decades. Selliers and others have much thinner rims. And as the .303 British uses the rim for headspacing instead of the shoulder like .308 Winchester, thin rims leave the brass with places to stretch to on first firing. And then if you repeat that problem by full length resizing the fired case - you recreate the original problem and stretch the case further. Doesn't take long doing that to get case separations (there's a cool tool for removing them, but Cerrosafe also works if it' stuck). Start with Privi, put a false shoulder on it before first firing, neck size only as often as possible, and when they start to get sticky like in the video, bump the shoulder back a tad with your full length sizing die until you once again have a light crush fit. Even Selliers brass and others like it can be helped a bit with that.
@@britishmuzzleloaders Rob, when you have some slack time one day, grab your micrometer or vernier and measure the rim thickness of MKVII ball, particularly any ball from WWI through WWII, and then do the same for Selliers, Winchester, etc cases. Compare your measurements and see what you find. Privi Partisan brass' rims mic at pretty much the same as assorted MkVII ball that I have as examplers from WWI, WWII, etc. Extra headspace on first firings or on subsequent firings is never going to help 'robustness'.
@@briankerr4512 In Canada where Rob lives, Budget and several others online regularly have PPU; in the US, Graf, Midway and others usually also have it in stock. I like to support local shops to try and help them remain in business, but where I am, they seem to only carry Remchester brass. Nice that in both countries, the best brass doesn't cost much less than the lesser alternatives. Another cool tool is the Lee Collet Die for .303 British. Collet neck die size until it gets a little draggie on chambering, then a little shoulder bump in the full length sizing die, die adjusted to just give a shoulder bump back to a light crush fit on closing the bolt. Then you'll be able quit worrying about that other cool tool.
It always strikes me as unfortunate that detachable box magazines weren't more widely implemented in late-stage bolt action rifles. A K31 or even a late mark SMLE or Mauser 98 would have probably stacked up decently even in the age of semiauto service rifles if they also had a 10 or 15 round round box mag system. But service rifles (that were involved in real fighting on a wide scale) basically jumped straight from full power bolt actions to intermediate caliber full auto assault rifles inside 30 years due to changes in doctrine.
@@britishmuzzleloaders just as a thought experiment, I like to imagine a 1950s mauser-action battle rifle would be something like a Ruger Scout .308. With that being said, I wish Mauser itself, or indeed ANY manufacturer of Enfield action rifles now that AIA is out of the game, would make an otherwise historically accurate rifle action of the time that just happened to be dropped into a stock that could accept say, an SR-25 or AICS magazine.
