Breaking the sabre is symbolic in Polish culture - that the fallen hero is unable to draw the sabre against the enemies. And it goes to the Polish classic literature - "Pan Wolodyjowski" by Sienkiewicz, where there is literally a scene of breaking the sabre.
Yeah, assuming that Sienkiewicz's Trilogy was more scientific than "ku pokrzepieniu serc"/raising patriot emotions in partitioned and nonexistent on the maps of XIX Europe Poland.
@@NihonDream Sienkiewicz stated it explicitly: "ku pokrzepieniu serc", and at least in my case, I kept this in mind when reading "The Trilogy" which given I was a child was somewhat strange ... I guess when born in a communist state and smart enough, you never ever believe anything unconditionally. I think that good Mr. Henryk thought along the similar line as mine: the ultimate tragedy and failure of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was inability to accommodate Ukraine (Rus') on the same level as the Crown and the Duchy. However of course that still would live the question of the serfdom unanswered ...
@@bogdanbaudis4099 it was propaganda, the stated events have either did not have a place, or were twisted (i.e the defence of Jasna Gora have never took place, there was a siege, basically an army pyut a camp, and few days later shown by Sienkiewicz, Kordecki have gae up the monastery. reality meets the fantasy. what matters is the spirit, culture, values.
@@randalldraco3822 It was written with a subtitle "ku pokrzepieniu serc" ("to gladden/salve our hearts") for the public of a country which at that moment did NOT EXIST. Yep, it WAS propaganda and Jasna Gora ("Potop"="Deluge") is quite a good point on the matter. I would not say H.S. was not aware about it and if you "read-between-the-lines" (as I always do, courtesy of the time and place of my upbringing), you should notice that Kimicic ended up commanding .. Tatars and that because (Wikipedia) "after an alliance with the Crimean Khanate, they repulsed the Swedes" (If I said that aloud in the soccer stadium in Poland now I would be very lucky to escape not seriously harmed!). H.S. wanted to write about and at the same time he did not to add to the anguish of the Polish people. Could he have done better? Maybe. There were a lot of others who tried to steer closer to the history. And they were read by many fewer ... I always say: do not confuse literature with history but on the other hand literature IS in the history ... I do not have a solution to the problem other than: "read between the lines". As for my statement about Poland vs. Ukraine, I stand by it. Obviously it is a conjecture and as it is with historical conjecture (barring the inventions of a time machine), it cannot be proven or dis-proven. There were many sources of the conflict but there WAS a framework in which Cossacks could be accommodated in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, not that much different what they thought they would be getting from Moscow, and who knows what would happen then ... In 17th century no major battle was lost when Commonwealth was able to field Polish-Lithuanian cavalry with Cossack infantry ...
The villain is actually holding his elbow - - basically pushing on it with his palm horizontally, you can see the protagonist try to do the thing you suggest if you pay attention to the tension in his body language. He can't, and he's holding the villains arm, so he settles for yelling
@@TangoNevada we both watched the same video, if you think you could twist your wrist with enough speed and force from that position to slash a guy's neck without him standing still to let you you need help. He'd have to rotate his entire wrist position, levering the sword over, which would take time. He can't possibly bring it to the left side of the guy's neck from the current position. Your wrist doesn't do that. All the guy has to do is react to it. These are not fully double sided blades, they cut, iirc, only on like the upper third of the back side if at all. The guy's collar is in the way of a cut from that side at that power. Cut his face maybe but again he'd have to sit still for it.
Remembered some movie with german trying to scribe the name of one polish soldier. And this man sayed his name is something like... Gzhegosh Gjesjeshchekevich... And i CAN say that. But then... He said something I can't even hear properly.
@@ivanpopov2788 Old Polish comedy "How I Unleashed World War II". Grzegorz Brzęczyszczykiewicz, and then he said Chrząszczyżewoszyce powiat Łękołody when asked about where he was born. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-AfKZclMWS1U.html ;)
I saw this video on YT where it premiered and was available for several weeks, or months. The film is a fictionalized documentary describing the art of blacksmithing and the culture of the Polish nobility. It made a huge impression on me.
2:35 - nah mate, you're crazy. the protagonist can't simply "execute a draw cut" because the other guy has control of his arm and if he attempted one, the other guy would know what he was up to. secondly, a simple draw cut doesn't do jack if you have no power or leverage behind it, not to mention the other guy has on at least a padded jerkin and probably another 1 or 2 layers of clothing. a simple "draw cut" is not getting through that without a good amount of power and leverage behind it.
It's also a weak move from the point of view of personal honor, almost cowardly. If your grappling with someone and he isn't trying to whip his sword around the back of your head you grapple. The first one to try to swing dirty in the clinch would have been dishonored and you don't want to dishonor yourself in a duel you could lose. It could be the difference between a clean death and cutting out your eyes and leaving you.
Absolutely. Glad someone pointed this out. It's just physics. No matter how sharp the sword is, if you can't put any meaningful force behind it, it's not going to do much.
That fight is both iconic and brilliant, but I think it suffered from being over-choreographed and static in footwork. It also had more telegraphing, and moulinets for drama.
Fun fact. Choreographer for the Deluge and one of creators of Zrodzeni do szabli are the same person :) Janusz Sieniawski has admited that the sword play in Deluge has little to do with the cross cutting.
@@lukaszjanusz4230 definitely not ;) He was the choreographer of With Fire and Sword ;) In Deluge the historical consultant was Adam Kersten, and the trainer was prof. Waldemar Wilhelm
2:39 nope - his arm was locked too - need high speed for cutting - from that position you never cut through leathered army cloth except with lightsaber
About the gripe you had... The hero cannot merely execute a draw cut across the villains torso. The move actually began like that, just before the grapple, and was stopped there by the opponents hand. Now the villain has a pretty good hold of the hero's sleeve, stopping the cut in that direction. They are in a stable position with both arms locked. Other than the hero turning down-left and exiting backwards under the opponent's right arm (path of least resistance), the way they disengaged was pretty much the logical thing to do :)
Exactly plus there's no momentum, it wouldn't have even cut him if he'd tried from the grapple. This guy's trying to sound more informed and profound, stating his misperceptions mixed with the facepalm level of "the obvious"
@@IPostSwords and yet, not possible when your hand is controlled. You have no leverage in that situation... But I have a feeling we will agree to disagree, you have a channel to manage 🙂
@@gediminasmorkys3589 no, the restriction due to being held is valid, I missed it watching the fight. I've just already addressed it in multiple comments.
Great from the cinematographic point of view, but 'just' good from the fencing perspective. But as in the Deluge, it is largely affected by the source material and the fact that Rob Roy wasn't supposed to be a particularly great fencer. Still much better than just about anything with the exception of 'the Duelists', obviously.
One thing I’ve always wanted to see depicted would be saber fighting on horseback. It’s hard to imagine that these duels would last long, but obviously saber cavalry were deadly as they were widely used for hundreds of years even well into the gunpowder age.
First 2 rows were mainly deflecting attacks with enemy's weapon swinged back so that further rows could slash them. Technically it was not very difficult (mainly it was around 3 moves if I remember correctly), but a horseman with white weapon had enormous physical advantage with his speed and energy he could put in his swings.
@@bartomiej9807 BTW .. the most successful formation (hussars) used as the primary weapon ... lances. Sabres was likely the weapons of the last resort or used in pursuit, after all, what was the "koncerz" was for? (stabbing weapon!). 17th century comes, they were also expected to discharge their pistols after a charge with lances ... The thing which is mostly lost in these discussion is the MOST EXPENSIVE piece of the cavalry kit: the horse. These were special-bred and extensively trained horses and without them ... Chodkiewicz won the Kircholm battle but had to settle for the campaign draw .. and part of the reason were the losses among of the hussars' horses .. and idiot Sejm (the parliament) which did not want to extend funds ...
@@bogdanbaudis4099 Lack of funding was a primary reason, because hussars' polish horses was extremely expensive one. Secondly - horseman are more than hussars, who were unique type of cavalry - medium type by the equipment (not as heavy armoured as similar western cavalry) but acted as heavy by task assigned (crushing formations). There is a great monography about them, forgot the author but worth reading. Lances were one time weapons - used in charge, broken on purpose (so that the energy was dissipated, not absorbed by wielder - another reason why hussars equipment was so expensive) and then they had to switch to other melee weapon. Koncerz was a required weapon for hussars (every hussar had to have one, info from monography mentioned above), long and not as universal as polish saber. It allowed only a few type of cuts and thrusts but that was more than enough.
@That Works Yes it is, but the accuracy only speaks for the fight and sword movements (and it's science) but not for the human reactions to getting wounded, cut or slashed. In real life, even the most battle scarred human would most likely writhe and cry in pain even at flesh wounds especially near the eyes or on the face. Given that both duelists were yelling and screaming out the pain away for the adrenaline rush, the way they hold out (their threshold) is not an accurate depiction of a real life death duel. A huge percentage of what is shown is still "cinematic license", where warriors are supermen impervious to pain and fear of death. Kinda like what Chinese Wu Xia Pian (period sword films) or the Japanese Chambara (samurai/sword films) apply to their productions. In the end, it's the cinematic narrative that wins.
@@idkwhattoputhere.9891 "Leaning into the sword is a very effective technique, but only if you have plate armour" .. and in 17th century that would make you just worthy of a pistol discharge! Jokes aside. this was a DUEL ... a little custom-regulated affair ... most of duels was understood to be fought "to the first blood", hence the stripping to the shirt ... the 17th century soldier's attire still might have involved if not a chain mail then still some heavy padding (I don't think moose skin is known for being fine ... 🙂) so these would be seen as "unseemly" in the context
The crooscut in the grapple was inhibited, held at the elbow with minimal mechanical leverage on offer. Thus might exemplify the stress and strain on the hero's expression. The idea that rage can intensify human spirit/strength the breaking of the sword was symbolic to the villains perpetual destruction and defeat. Many sports sword fighters in Poland attempt authentic direct engagement.
Great to see the Polish people making great historical films of their culture and ancestry. Unlike mine, the Hungarians. Hungarian huszár films are not allowed to be made by the foreign occupied government, only guilt making crap is financed by the "officials Hungarian film industry". Son of Saul was a typical example. Polak, Wienger dva bratanki !
i cannot believe i found this again, i forgot name of movie but i have never seen an iller showdown, only saw once and i was jumping up and down screaming cuz people have no idea how phenomenal this scene was cuz was so realistic i literally could not believe what i had just seen so OMG thank you
Well perhaps I’ll bring some context into the saber breaking part. Since in Polish culture nobleman’s (later officers and uhlans or cavalry man) life/soul is represented by his saber it was a ceremonial practice at their funeral to break the saber and lay it to rest with them. It was practiced all the way to the WW2. From the interwar period I gathered officers’ personal, often ceremonial sabers were broken, but in case of an enlisted uhlan it was usually their own purchased standard issue combat saber (maybe not as flexible as the XVII century sabers), yet it was still broken by their comrades on the knee. So the scene is very symbolic, and I think only ads rather then take away from the movie and is not that unhistorical, although I might be wrong in terms of what kind of sabers were broken during the funerals, also I have no idea if it was done after the battle when burying the fallen ergo if it was done with combat sabers of the time.
Perhaps even a catastrophic bending of the sword, as they did with Norse chieftains' blades for burial, would have been considered broken? Unless it says it was specifically snapped into two pieces, it's hard to know.
You're partly right. Braking the sabre can be viewed as a symbol of end of life of the nobleman, but more so, if it happaned, had a practical meaning of destroying the arm that could be used by the enemy. Thus colonel Wołodyjowski breaks his own sabre in famous film (ceremonial part before impending death), however (more importantly) he makes it prior to exploding the strategic castle, soon to be taken over by Turks, by an ignition of the cannon ammunition. His companions have safely left beforehand.
@@lukelblitz3627 A slight suspension of reality for the sake of drama isn't necessarily a bad thing, unless you're a die-hard purist. In which case.... what's the fun in that?
The point is, it's physically impossible to break sabre like this. You can put it between two stones and using leverage break it, but not like this. Sabre blades are super strong.
I've seen videos on both, and I'm not choosing between them. This one is MUCH shorter, but only has one potential flaw, and is fantastic. Kmicic Vs Wolodyjowski is longer, and has a few more flaws, but is also fantastic. It's like choosing between chocolate chocolate chip ice cream and chocolate fudge swirl ice cream. The answer is not "Which one?", but instead the answer is "Yes". >.> Kmicic Vs Wolodyjowski does have the advantage of being an in depth story duel, with a lot of subtle and skilled storytelling in how the people fight.
I've stopped following Polish media years ago but I'm really surprised I've not heard of this movie! The Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth is probably my favourite subject in history and both the Deluge and Pan Wolodyjowski (and to a much lesser extent the newer With Fire and Sword) are some of my favourite movies. I'll have to give it a watch. There is not nearly enough media on the Commonwealth honestly. I think the sabre snapping is entirely possible. Metallurgy science wasn't really a thing until Victorian era, and even then there are accounts of weapons snapping. It's a fluke, but possible.
Possible under a ton of stress, sure. But that sabre just went through heated battles against multiple opponents without taking any damage, then was broken in one smooth motion. I find that unlikely. But either way, it was a minor issue
@@ty-gb8zn Now, now, calm down. First- if you want to correct someone at least be right yourself ;) It was RZECZPOSPOLITA OBOJGA NARODÓW. Second- @MRPolo is correct to begin with as to the rest of Europe it has been known as Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth, with an exception of France where it was called The Republic of Poland-Lithuania (if memory serves) ;)
Considering Polish cinema is also responsible for bringing us the famous duel in 'The Deluge', it isn't surprising this one is great quality too. The szabla and art of cross-cutting has a lot of historical and cultural prominence, so it's not too surprising that it's taken seriously there.
Agreed. My two biggest issues are the bind (which is just so static, could have been done better) and the pauses / untaken advantage. Both sadly typical of cinema
I think cdpr might well have taken a lot from this movie, olgierd is in fact a Polish noble with a family sabre, and can damn well fight as quick and effeciently as this guy
I'm not so sure about that, maybe the tactics are realistic but if you slash your opponent's face and cause them to go into a State of Shock where they are not paying attention anymore , that's the perfect time to just go in for the kill. But it seems that the guy just simply stands there and waits for the other guy to get his footing back. If it's a life-or-death scenario you are more than likely going to just simply go in for the kill as soon as you have an opportunity so the threat is no longer there
A valid criticism. I think given that the antagonist had dirt and blood in his eyes, the protagonist should have pushed his advantage further and attacked more aggressively.
Not necessarily, consider that it actually requires conditioning to kill your opponent. Soldiers have to be taught to shoot to kill, and it was even during world war II that soldiers did not always shot enemies just on occassion. In a brawl it makes sense, that after you have beaten your opponent, they yield or flee, you do not continue to attack, because they may push themselves and lash out possibly injuring you in their desperate attempt. People normally are not very willing to kill each other
I think you underestimate a sword fight to the death. I don't think a seasoned fighter would experience shock, specially when time moves super slow in a situation as such. Also wounding an opponent is dangerous. When you wound any animal it will go into last stand mode. When soldiers lose their fingers or break bones, they go into overdrive. If I slashed my opponent in the face and he looked like he was in shock, I wouldn't chance attacking him, and maybe opening myself up. I would rather patiently "wait" as the situation develops more in my favor. Than again wtf do I know.
@@Bakalakalajihad Ironically, this also matches a famous sentiment from the Art of War. The author said to never completely surround the enemy army because if enemy soldiers have a way out they'll most often choose to run as opposed to fighting. However, if you give them no way out they'll fight like mad to the death and your army will suffer more losses than they would have if you let the enemy route. You also see this with animals when they fight. They seem much more willing to allow their competitors to flee than fighting them to the death. I think it has to do with the lack of medical attention increasing the threat level of any injury received. That could very well have been the case in ancient duels as well.
@@grupa2119 My guess: When you are high on adrenaline, you are fighting for your life, there is big blade flying around ready to literally cut big junk of you away - in that one moment when there is opening for your cut you would go for it either intentionally or by pure survival instinct. Once your opponent is cut down and at your mercy, no threat anymore, and you are down and exhausted than maybe some humanity takes place and it becomes questionable whether you can kill him in cold blood. Btw. - in battles major killings took place when opposing army was fleeing. Thus winning soldier were not just willing to kill, they were slaughtering en masse people that were already no harm to them. Also close quarter battles in trenches and houses were usually described as the most brutal ones where often no mercy was given - turning them into even more brutal ones
Poles made some excellent epics mostly based on Sienkiewicz's works. You should also check out Kryzacy or the "Crusaders" about Polish-Lithuanian war with the TeutonicnOrder!
@@Danko_Sekulic dude, your translation is way off. The movie's title is not "Crusaders" (as it has nothing to do with the actual Crusades or Holy Land). It's Teutonic Knights or Teutonic Order.
@@MrPompadil What the hell are you talking about?? The title of the movie literally means "crusaders" in Polish ! The word is nearly identical to the one in my own native language which is "križarji" (plural). , and the term "crusades" has been used for ALL Catholic military interventions including those against pagans and heretics - we even have well-established terms for those crusades like the Albigensian Crusade (against a heretic sect in s. France) and the Northern Crusades (against Baltic peoples wwho were still pagan at the time). Your definition of "crusades" is extremely narrow!
@Masemeno Nasaku they generate extra noise when moving as formation of 200" hussars"in full charge which looks /works scary item for untrained horses(similar situation was done during battle training done on horses which deliver war horse which is not afraid of fire,noises, bites and temple enemies on command etc)
Thanks for the good video. It does look like a really cool scene. I just have something to say about the suggestion of a draw cut during the bind at 2:40 or so in the video. I expect that both fighters during a bind like this are intensely focused on managing the other person's sword arm. that seems to be the case here. The antagonist has the protagonist's sword arm by the sleeve and seems to have reasonable control over it, leaving him with very little mobility in that arm. In order to do a draw cut the protagonist would have to be able to pull that arm through VERY quickly (which I doubt he could do in that bind). That leads to my next point....or edge....or something. The protagonist's weapon is very close to the intended target for any "draw cut". Yes, sharp swords are sharp and you wouldn't want one dragged across your skin, but the fighters appear to be wearing clothing that is padded and on par with a gambeson. In order to cut through that you would, in my opinion and experience, need an initial impact with good edge alignment to get through that clothing, then followed by a drawing motion as part of the cut. Pushing the sword into the opponent at that distance and attempting to saw through their padded jacket, based on my experience with sharps, would be very unlikely to do anything.
Whatever transition technique you use to adjust between takes that blends separate shots of your face is a great reason why I don't look at my phone when tripping on mushrooms.
The redhead dude and the fighting style reminds of Olgierd von Everec from the hearts of stone expansion in the witcher 3, of course the witcher is a polish fantasy story so it makes sense he would have polish hairstyles and fighting styles
A minor flaw ... @2:34 they are in a grapel and their sword arms are restrained. This restraint would make it difficult or impossible for the sword to be drawn against/across the opponents chest (as it is being held in place by his opponent). And even if he could have performed this draw it is questionable as to amount of force he could have been brought to bare (pressing the sword's cutting edge into the opponents chest), the sharpness/cutting ability of his blade, and the resulting damage that might have been inflicted. Speculation at best as to this one small part of a very well choreographed sword fight.
Yeah, one of the fight choreographers chimed in and apparently the elbow of the protagonist is being held be the antagonist in this grapple, which would limit a draw cut. It's hard to see in full speed given the camera angle, so I missed it.
Cały film jest super i każdemu polecam. Dobrze jest pokazane wychowanie młodego szlachcica. Natomiast co do walki finałowej , to jest to prostu super. Bracia grają super i fantastycznie władają bronią. Polecam
2:53 no he couldn't swind his saber, his armed hand is interlocked, as much as his other hand, and even if he could move his arm to a swing, there is no inertia and he is weilding a saber, and not a lightsaber
The blacksmith involved with the movie already commented on this video confirming it was partially ground through in order to facilitate breakage for the movie, and would otherwise not be able to be broken in such a fashion.
About the sword being broken over the knee, I’d say it’s possible to crack a blade during combat and then snap it easily enough…I’ve had a few I could hear and feel it crack during tournaments and later I snapped them so not to hurt anyone on accident…Other then that, swords can bend quite far..at least the ones we compete with.
There is an older Polish film that this pays homage to that is even more accurate and in which one of the actors is nearly seriously wounded. That one is likely the greatest (accurate) duel in cinematic history.
@@MrPompadil Potop is part 2 of a trilogy there is also awesome duel in part 3 called "Pan Wołodyjowski" : ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-ILAabw-Zf8c.html Apart from the main actor, the scene features his real life sword fighting teacher
when the two characters are grappling, it could be a fair excuse that the hero, in the heat of the moment, didn't realize he could have slashed the enemy
Snaping the saber over a knee is a sort of symbolic thing Poland. If you abandon the fight or are forced to give up you are not worthy to wield your weapon kind of thing.
On the topic of Polish saber I have more on my channel. And as for the film, it's just an attempt at reconstruction. I respect these men, but I don't know how their vision of fencing works in a real fight. They always fight as if it were a movie arrangement not a real fight. Regards
Well, given that the context here *is* a movie, I can see why they're using a system better suited to a movie. It's an interpretation, sure, and it's based on relatively recent sources and theres some (fair) controversy around them, but it is still a fair sight better than most movie fight scenes
@@IPostSwords Please dont take it like Im shitting on you. Not my intentions loved the vid. Ive just never seen something like that. Made ne think of some reptilian alien that had their cloaking device malfuntion.
As for me, the most accurate saber fight scenes in the history of cinema are the battle scene between Pan Volodievsky and Kmitets from the Polish movie "Deluge" and the saber duel scene from the movie "Duelists". And in this movie, the fighters are too careless, there is no feeling that they are fighting with military weapons and to the death.
Nice video. I don't know if anyone mentioned it already, but to your point about how the protagonist could have won with a draw cut, it looks like his opponent has his left hand on his swordarm to keep that from happening.
This analysis is ridiculous, both these guys took cuts to the face with swords, the second one, a quite violent blow, and then they are shown with hardly bleeding scratches.
When the protagonist cuts his opponent, he pauses top let him recover. That's not what a man does who is fighting for his life. That's comic book stuff. In reality, you press any advantage. We're conditioned to think that when you land a good shot, you've scored some kind of 'point,' and then you pause and let your opponent recover. That's how it tends to work in video games, in fencing sport. This may come also from boxing and other combat sports in which you're no permitted to leap upon your opponent and slit his throat when you land a knockdown. But in the wilds, that's exactly what you do. If you manage to blind your opponent with dirt, he's not "temporarily blinded;" he's dead. Your sword is skewering his heart within 1/10 of a second of him not being able to see. Otherwise, what's the point? So, that sort of pausing to let the opponent recover is for cinematic drama, and is not accurate. There are no 'points' to score in the wild, nor 'statements' to be made; there's only killing the guy trying to kill you.
Skallagrim made a video where he tests drawcuts, and even a light fabric is able to totally negate the effect of the cut, so yeah it would have been totally useless against gambeson. ^^
@@official_moron_frog Pulling up toward the throat might have been an option, but others have mentioned that cutting in such a manner during a grapple is dishonorable.
