The Myth of the Zen Master 

I like Thich Nhat Hanh a lot. I think people just misunderstood your video on him. Yeah he was great, but I think some people did see him as (and this may sound worse than I mean it) a supreme person. That being said from everything I saw on him, he was a great person and a great teacher.

When I was homeless and traveling through Taos New Mexico I met Roshi Stan ''Butan'' White, a 93yr old Zen Monk from the Hokoji Temple, at a little coffee shop called The World Cup. He was bent and pushy, and budged his way through the people waiting in line for their orders. When he saw me sitting with my bag on the bench outside he sat for a moment and told me he was a Zen Monk and asked if I'd like a cup of coffee. I said sure, but could I come and study with him? He asked me what I wanted to learn and I replied: "Nothing.'' Which seemed to make him smile. We talked a while, he went and got us coffee in paper cups and he invited me to come and sit at the temple. That was a decade ago and my practice has drifted as have I. What a joyful thing to bump into the old man and spend time sitting with him. 🙃

I actually really enjoyed your perspective on this, we do tend to put our faith in the myth.

Wow! You really kicked the hornets' nest. I went to a few of Thich Nhat Hahn's Dharma talks in Escondido, CA. Though crowded, they weren't the circus you described in yesterday's video. There would be a period of sitting meditation, walking meditation, and an inspiring talk. His story of a married couple whose deep-seating problems got fixed by a one-week retreat seemed overly optimistic to me but TNH's understanding was in general good. I like his books. He has a real talent from explaining difficult concepts in terms anyone can understand. Want to understand the Storehouse of Consciousness or Dependent Origination? Start with Thich Nhat Hahn.

Thanks for this important talk on the myth-making of the modern American Zen teacher / master. Steve Hagen in his book, "Buddhism Plain and Simple" calls it our tendency to "bunyanize" the spiritual leaders that we admire. I also think the practitioner should beware of any spiritual group that has a leader who plays up to this myth. Those are the ones you want to keep at arms length!

I've watched a lot of your videos, and I'm thankful for your perspective, Brad. Thank you!

Brad you are really awesome, thank you for these videos

Thanks Brad, for that considered essay on the problem of roshis. What did it for me was a Reb Anderson talk where he outlined a visit to an aging abbot and friend in Japan (Yasutani?), where he found that the abbot had succumbed to dementia, but was still being treated & cared for as the abbot. It was a heart-rending talk. It reminds me of this Sufi poem: What shall we do with the gilded cage now that the bird has flown?

I think this whole “controversy” just goes to show that people will argue about anything

Please don't feel defensive. I think there are a larger number of viewers who agree with you but aren't going to troll about it. They might not even hit the like button. Your words, of course, are always your opinions, but those who truly follow Dogen's teachings know that and see that you aren't attacking anyone. Hugs! (and also, those who follow Dogen know that we are all fallible human beings, a state of living that no one viewing these videos can ever escape)

Monasteries have abbots, governments have presidents, clubs have owners, and dogs have their owners. Moreover, Buddhisms has Buddhas, Christianity has Jesus, Zen had patriarchs, and yes, societies have celebrities. It is completely normal, I don't see why it bothers anybody. It reminds me of myself as a kid, whenever I would listen to some song I would check if an artists was any popular. If it was, then I would just say "UGH! this is some mainstream crap!". The more obscure stuff was, the better. This was some teenage riot, elitist attitude. TNH was just a great human being, celebrity or not. It is enough to look at his involvement in the Vietnam war. The guy was almost a saint, and that is what made him popular.

I appreciate your perspicacity on myth-making. It’s an important concept that many overlook. I think I’m going to have some ice cream today. I hope Ziggy fully recovers!

I completely support You, Brad. No doubt.

The patreon plug at the end was gold Brad 😂😂😂

Remember, a myth is as good as a mile.

Thanks Brad …absolutely agree with your insights about the public at large and the celebrity worship. I certainly believe that Thick Nhat Hanh was a very sincere person and did his best to pass along the dharma as he experienced it. But among every so called ‘spiritual’ movement there is no lack of hierarchical bull , whether its Zen, the Vatican, you name it. I don’t know, when it plays ‘big’ it draws all kinds of people …who in fact are searching for something. Maybe‘spiritual’ kindergartners or not…eventually we find out that we must face ourselves alone.

liked both of your videos on the topic. I think showing how our heros can be flawed just like us normies ends up making a better case on how we too can live a fulfilling life rather than trying to turn them into unhuman like figures in which case it makes not living up to the myth defeating.

There is the person, and then there is the thought of the person. We build the thought of the person and that is what we become attached to (whether good, bad, or in between). I think people have a hard time letting go of that attachment and so even "roshis" feed that attachment to the myth of themselves just a little bit.

Zen Wrapped in Karma Dipped in Chocolate was the first of your books that I read. It's a large part of why I'm here, that you personify the maxim of "if you meet the Buddha on the road" and took a hammer to your own hagiography.

fully embodied the topic 👍 create one on hollywood actors, please!

Thank you for this video. Also, I don't have a lot of money, but if Ziggy needs to go to the veterinarian, I can help pay for his appointment if you'd like.

vitriol? In RU-vid comments? Can it be?

There's a similar kind of hagiography around Zen Master Seung Sahn in the Kwan Um School of Zen. According to tradition, he was the 78th Patriarch (in his Chogye lineage). Of course, ZMSS was a human being. He neglected his own health (he was diabetic), gave people bad advice, and supposedly had sexual relations with at least one female student (sorry boys). Yet he founded a fairly decent Zen school with temples and Zen Centers around the world, and most of his dharma descendants seem to be decent, competent teachers. OK, I'm not a big fan of the bowing and chanting thing, but who cares? That's just, like, my opinion, man. Also, he was very good at assigning kong-ans (jp. koans) for homework.

Very good and I agree completely. I have very simple criteria for listening to buddhist teachers. First, they have to be normal, almost boring (no magical stuff, at least not too much). Second, they need to follow the basic precepts. Third, what they say has to be consistent with what I read in the suttras (not that I read a lot of these, but it is easy to tell and compare between the teachers). Last, but not least, they have to be human beings, not saints. The last point is very important one, as they are just human, teachers, priests. I would not get excited about a school teacher, or a priest, so why should I get excited and idealise a buddhist teacher? I would even go as far as to say that I would not like to listen to a teacher that appears ideal. Respect- yes, idealisation - no. Daddy gurus I'll leave for others.

It does seem like an odd term in that context. If we're just describing a revered, old teacher though, I'd say Shōhaku Okumura fits that title pretty well.

Interesting. I was mentioning lately to my wife a talk from Richard Baker he gave a couple of years ago here in Vienna and how I was not OK with him showing off talking about his mental state of always being in the now. Also I heard some members of the sangha being really impressed about his kind of supreme abilities but I also heard others being rather sarcastic about him. For me it was a kind of sign, that I should look for a different Zen teacher who appears to be more grounded, humble and honest to me. Thank you for discussing these things, because a lot of people I know who are interested in spiritual topics are a little bit deluded about what it means to be awake(ned).

I fall in love easily, and out of love just as quickly when the person shows their humanity. It's easy to fall in love with a myth. Nice sweatshirt, by the way, not a Kiss (KISS?) fan exactly, but that piece is pretty cool.

people are dishonest with themselves, rather than admit a lack of their own understanding, they fill this gap by using others as their proxies these others are conveniently inaccessible or dead so the possible embarrassment of that person refuting what is claimed for them doesn't exist in the person at least, though it can be there in the writings or biography this is almost entirely the norm with anything to do with the "spiritual" or religions brad, this talk of yours was much better than usual because you weren't proxing into dogen, but it was your own synthesis from your own experience and interestingly, you seem happier and more engaged doing it. what i have worked out about dogen, is he sometimes says insightful things that can be expressed quite simply in english, but he has various rhetorical techniques (notably nagarjuna-like inversions) to confuse what he is saying, which you can also see in elizabethan literature, the commonality is people were always armed to a degree and you had to be very careful what you said to them, too direct could be fatal

Thanx!

The previous video had nothing wrong in it. About the celebrity guru part,, it's quite accurate. I've seen your clips with Nishijima roshi(thanks for posting them! His talks were really full of insights,, and helped me realise the essence of that statement, "Even if the sun were to rise on the West, the Bodhisattva has only one way." -- he lived the talk.) on your other channel. And it's delightful to see him interacting with his students in a more intimate and close manner..which obviously must have helped his students in a significant way. But is TNH to blame for the stardom he got? He simply stood for what he thought was necessary at that point of time. For his country , Vietnam. It was out of his care for the suffering people there. He was a peace activist. And I think your previous video had one big flaw and that was,, The criticisms you made of Thich Nhat Hanh were to a large extent, accurate. But much of it was your own biased view of the scenario. Than the actual case. And TNH has done many marvellous works too. But you didn't mention that on your "random thoughts". It doesn't matter whether you don't like his initiatives or not,, but his books are beautiful. They introduced me to Buddhadharma. And helped me through my dark days.. And I'm sure there are plenty others like me who benefitted tremendously from that man's book. But these things didn't find mention in your "random thoughts" on him. "So, you saw the glass half-empty" XD... And really the title should have been more like "flaws and pitholes in the life and teachings of Thich Nhat Hanh", rather than "random thoughts on Thich Nhat Hanh".. I think that was what put off many people who said your review of him was flawed. No offense :) ,, 🙏❤️

Hello Brad! May I ask you a favour? I would really like to know what were the original Japanese characters Dogen used in Shobogenzo for the famous 4fold transmission by Bodhidharma to his disciples "skin, flesh, bones and marrow"...the thing is...I found one archive of the original Japanese Shobogenzo with English translation to a side and would like to find out the characters but don't remember in which chapter is this topic discussed...(in Raihai Tokusui there is definitely something about that but only could I find the character for marrow...no hard task indeed, for it's the very title! Hahahaha)...maybe there are more than one chapter in which I could find that...but really I don't remember where...so...maybe you, who are a much more expert in Shobogenzo than me, could find out? Thank you in advance for your time...and if you can't for whatever reason do that for me, be it lack of time or whatever...don't worry, it's ok...I would understand! Gassho.

Good.

Good talk, discussing the cult of personality is difficult as some will take it personally. Especially in spiritual beliefs, where many have vested beliefs, time and money. It is always a heart breaker when you discover your "Master " is just a man or woman with the same human flaws as everyone else.

Awesome

I watch a lot of Plum village videos. Only one monastic was indirectly reminding followers not to glorify and revered TNH as a "god".

when you've run into someone as just a guy in a leather jacket in CVS and had an ordinary conversation about the weather and such next to the band aids and cold medicine it's hard to mythify them and that's fine with me. Namo Amida Butsu.

Thanks for your open words. Spontaneously I thought you were commenting on Monty Python's Life of Brian. 🥴 But it seems that people - whatever belief - need a "light" they can follow and hold on to, Just to make things/life easier.

That history is a myth, is a myth in itself. Although it´s true that it has constructivist, and even ideological sides to it, but it can also be enlightening (by revealing facts via triangulation, for example), and demystifying.

When I told his teaching had been helpfull for people, I didn't claim criticism is inappropriate, yet I rather tried to say that even celebrity may help and we know a lot of so called masters who are less helpful for their students.

All humans have flaws, even those with extraordinary ideas.

I always thought Alan Watts was Mr. Rogers for adults

Thanks for your talk, even your thumbnail is a lesson. I recently finished “To Meet The Real Dragon” and laughed out loud ridiculously when I saw Nishijima Roshi there. Even Thich Nhat Hanh said something like a finger pointing at the moon isn’t the moon.

Yay!

What about buddha?

If he has 'the papers", I believe in him.

Some people just like taking swipes at you no matter what you say. Hell, there are people who it seems just live to snipe at others here on the comments. Don't sweat it.

Trying hard to listen... But always get envious, he`s 58 years looking much younger than me, being 40.

Interesting what you say about Jesus. I’m following a course called historical critical exegesis of the old and New Testament at the faculty of theology of the university of Leuven. Super interesting in that context. Until now no actual historical proof of a living Jesus, but the letters of Paul and the gospel of Marc are historically proven to be written about 40 to 50 years after his death, and seriously indicate “something”. There is obvious wisdom (to me Marc is especially interesting, Matthew is also nice) that makes me think of Dharma. But maybe that’s because I’m also looking at it through a Dharmic lens. Anyway. I enjoy it 😊

I just got this today...I'm going out on a limb that the kanji for "roshi" are 老師, which, if taken literally, do indeed mean "old master." But in the modern sinosphere, these characters simply mean "teacher." So I guess the takeaway here is that you could call Brad as "Warner Lao3 Shi1", just not "Warner Roshi." Actually a really good example of how kanji mean different (although often similar) things from their Chinese meanings. Linguistics doctoral students, here's a thesis idea: Use distributive semantic methods to try and map more precisely how Japanese kanji diverge from Chinese meanings.

I took some delight in watching the TNH worshippers have their feathers ruffled. Terribly unbuddhist of me, I know. But I'm only human. Just like TNH, who I quite like, but who doesn't have some special place where he is impervious to criticism (and who I don't think you were criticising, so much as you were calling attention to the ways he's in some way a vessel of this bizarre progressive idolatry). Anyway, love your videos, Ziggy, and your books.

Hold the front page. Humans are human.

But, BRAD, don’t human beings with, well, “superhuman” abilities occasionally emerge? Alex Honnold (“Free Solo”) comes to mind….

I’m not sure how anyone would take offense at comparing Thich Naht Hahn to Fred Rogers. If anything, that’s a compliment! The man truly was a great guy. Even the stories where he’s less than “saintly” don’t tarnish him, they just make him relatable. Like this one story of him pissing in a graveyard. Mr. Rogers that is.

The first misunderstanding is that the Buddha wasn't just a human. And a Zen "Master" is just that... Basically someone with a "masters", so to speak, in Buddhism and the Zen's various teaching vehicles. All the Abbots/Senseis/Roshis at Fire Lotus Zendo Brooklyn had spent over a decade each, training at Zen Mountain Monastery in Mt. Tremper N.Y. and received "Dharma transmission" from Daido Loori Roshi. He was and they simply are authenticated lineage holders, trained in the rigorous school of Koan Zen and the subtle teachings of Master Dogen's Zen. They are simply teachers in a long long, 2500 year long line of teachers of the ever evolving Dharma.

How dare you. -with love💕

If Roshi means 'old master' that means Buddha himself could not have been a Roshi at the time of his awakening. He was not that old. Master is a word for others to call you...not a word to call yourself.

I hear the top Tibetan lamas are still a bit superhuman - there is definitely a big demand for opportunities to hobnob with magical beings.

LOL, The K worshippers made a statue of K. Maybe he will come back as a zombie and smash it up - the disdain he had for formed hierarchical stiffness. Heard the Bodhidharma had a Greek party with statues. Point is notions of static stiff things don't point to impermanence and openness. Some people still think the body exists as solid contracted object, myth of the statue,

As much as I was troubled by the video on TNH, I appreciate much in this one. My own readings and studies in Buddhism do strongly suggest to me that (1) some Zen masters may not really understand what they're teaching, and (2) no Zen master is perfect. Indeed, I'm skeptical that the Buddha himself actual achieved perfect enlightenment. But that still leaves room for there to be extraordinary Zen masters who, though not perfect, do immense good in the world and live largely in accord with Buddhist teachings. It may be that "stuff" comes out about TNH posthumously. If that stuff reveals that he did not live generally in accord with his stated values, that will be immensely disappointing. But until such stuff emerges, I would not speculate about the measure of his human fallibility or the sycophancy of his inner circle... because it's also possible -- indeed, probable -- that TNH was "the real deal" and, like Sister Chan Khong, had lived through enough horror in Vietnam to know better than to play games with Buddhism. The trouble with the TNH video was not that it made specific allegations of inauthenticity or wrongdoing -- that's a strawman -- but that it engaged in careless speculation and broad generalizations about TNH, his inner circle, and his followers. And that just isn't skillful... even though it is skillful to warn generally about the machinery of mythology.

Not that we respect expertise much anymore - but what you really describe here is essentially mythologizing a leader or teacher - which I spent years studying and teaching (PhD in Leadership Studies). Literally any figure who becomes known and influential becomes “perfected” and true followers see any critique as invalid and personal. Truth is, all these “greats” are HUMAN - as you allude to - and thus imperfect. A whole system, which at a certain point becomes self sustaining and self protective, develops around them. People either come to see the imperfections of their chosen “ideal”, usually after death or some major scandal - and then drop them like a hot potato, or continue to live in delusion by choice (a choice usually made by ego). In any case, the “great leader/teacher” may have indeed done great things which should not be seen as negated by their humanity - but seen for what they are; great things done by an imperfect human being.

Applying a title to oneself seems so "too much" for me that I even cringe when someone introduces him/her self as Mr/ Mrs Soandso. As for your trying to deflate the eventual myth about yourself, there was a Roman Catholic saint, Philip Neri, who was so bored of the people of Rome calling him a saint that, one day, he shaved half his face and tied a velvet cushion on his head, hoping the people would think him to be mad. It backfired. "Oh look at the saint being so humble!"

In this video it seems like a kind of defensiveness: 'I wasn't critical, it's the too-sensitive fanboys who are misinterpreting me.' You keep saying you're not critical, but for *years* you've been hand-wavingly dismissive of what you've called his 'business' and 'shtick' (words I remember from one of you old, long-discontinued podcasts), and even here you lump criticism of your previous video as being from people who consider him their 'hero'.

Dear Friend Brad, read Acts 9 and the words of the risen and ascended Christ to Saul who became the apostle Paul. 'It is hard for you to kick against the spikes.'

critiqueing tich's followers, however passive aggressively, while his body was still warm was wack. your opinion is just is not that important in that moment. it's just bad taste and unnecessary and disrespectful to the people grieving.

Shoes outside the door - a lame book!