The MYTH of Trickle Down Technology in Hifi and Home Theater

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The MYTH of Trickle Down Technology in Hifi and Home Theater
Audiophiles have long believed that high-end audio is responsible for all the technology advancements in entry-level and mid-fi hifi (and home theater) products, but is it true? Is high end audio really responsible for all the technology we know and love today? Did hifi and high end home theater give us Bluetooth, streaming music and movies, HDMI and voice activation, or was it someone else? The truth is not cut and dry.
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15 окт 2024

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Комментарии : 552

@andrewrobinsonreviews 4 года назад

AGREE or DISAGREE? List a technology in hifi or home theater that trickled down to an entry level product. COMMENT AND POSTING RULES: (Please read before commenting) Please remember to be kind and courteous to one another in the comments. It's okay to disagree just keep things civil. Harassment will not be tolerated. WORRIED YOUR COMMENT WAS DELETED? Comments containing profanity are automatically flagged and deleted by RU-vid. Comments containing links of any kind to outside URLs (including RU-vid links) are automatically flagged and deleted. If you aren't seeing your comment, please make sure you didn't accidentally leave out a space before or after a period your sentence. RU-vid sees this as a URL link. Since we cannot edit your comments, any of the above violations will result in your comment not be visible.

@pim540 4 года назад

I think it has a lot to do whit the ability too expiriment and the opennes that consumers feel towards the more experimental products. So I think I agree. :)

@f430ferrari5 4 года назад

Andrew Robinson isn’t it simply more about a “high end product” and not necessarily who made it? So trickle down usually starts off very expensive until a competitor makes it for cheaper and the difference in quality and reliability is negligible. I do think some stuff can work the other way too. Somebody comes up with something relatively inexpensive but it has limitations and thus some work on improving on something and some are willing to pay extra for it. In today’s environment I think you’re correct though in that what is being offered is somewhat lower quality and inexpensive and thus I’ve been hesitant to buy because I’ve been waiting for better quality. I would like the convenience of Bluetooth at home but I fear the degradation of music quality. Maybe we are finally at a point of good affordable blue tooth devices that rival CD’s or high end source devices?

@MO-ss7qt 4 года назад

I agree, and I disagree. I think when you consider technology being passed upward or downward, you have to consider the type of technology. Without a doubt, trendy but useful "features" (ie, wireless, bluetooth, web enabled, smart phone compatibility) seem to mostly trickle upward. Whereas "performance" or "quality" technology improvements (display quality, amplifier performance, speaker sensitivity) all trickle downward. That said, your example of HDMI technology flies in the face of my statement. Like you, I wouldn't say anything is absolute.

@woodstock480 4 года назад

@@MO-ss7qt That was my thought, too. I think the inclusion of (convenience) features is not the same as the actual technology itself--whether it be speaker technology, amplification or whatever else. However, I don't claim to be an expert in this arena. I still found this video and his thoughts interesting.

@jp93309 4 года назад

Speaker connections. Banana plug or 5 way binding posts used to be mid to hifi only while spring clips were predominantly low end. Now spring clips are almost non-existent at every level.

@curtismclay3754 4 года назад

Andrew, you have the best “bedside manner” of any reviewer on RU-vid.

@andrewrobinsonreviews 4 года назад

Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

@jakbenardete7707 4 года назад

Completely agree on the trickle up and completely disagree on the trickle down. Quality technology always trickles down, convenience technology always trickles up. The reason we have a $100 Dragonfly DAC today is because we had the first expensive Dacs that were a part of a lot of R&D

@bigjay1970 4 года назад

Yep, true

@thisisnev 4 года назад

audiolab didn't do the initial DAC research, though, did they? That was Philips and Sony.

@cbpersel 4 года назад

I'm not buying the argument because it's an apples and oranges comparison. Hi-fi equipment technology improvements to "features" (apples) is different from technology improvements to "sound quality" (oranges). The former (features) can certainly start with lower-end components (e.g. bluetooth, etc.) whereas the latter (sound quality) is usually advanced by higher-end components. Higher-end manufacturers are more focused on sound quality advances and are later to adopt new features because 1) they don't usually improve the audio quality and 2) they wait until the feature becomes more commonly used to make it worth their while to add to their product(s). Lower-end manufacturers promote "features" because those are easier to come by and can be a great selling point without having to improve the audio quality. They are the shiny new object that the mass consumer can be sold. There are some other factors that can also come into play in this "tango" (e.g. MQA), but I won't go off on that tangent. :-)

@a.m.2531 4 года назад

We must also remember that Bluetooth and such (the apples in your comment) are tech that moved laterally into HiFi. In their original development spaces, they were first offered on high-end items in those categories and then became available on more affordable items. If the tech is good and can be economically scaled, it may spread so fast that most people will not even notice that it was first offered to the top iPhones only and not the cheaper ones.

@cbpersel 4 года назад

@@a.m.2531 I don't remember bluetooth being initially offered on high-end audio equipment. MQA, on the other hand, is one of those examples that we have seen offered on both relatively lower-end dacs (e.g. audioquest dragonfly) and high-end dacs (e.g. take your pick). But ... there are many high-end audio producers refusing to buy-in to MQA because it's both not a widely available file format and they have to pay a licensing fee to use it in their equipment. I could add thirdly, that many of these kind of formats have also come and gone after being touted as the next great thing.

@jamesbrower1104 4 года назад

I think this misses 1 key point: Trickle down can refer to a company that develops a cutting edge technology and then brings it down to a more affordable level: For example you mentioned Mark Levinson: Well, back in the day, Mark Levinson has been bought out and restructured many times. So when using that brand, you need to be specify the time period. M-L today is quite different from the Madrigal Audio Labs period even though Harmon has been the principle owner all along. So back in the Madrigal days, they came out with a sister brand called Proceed. This offshoot was designed by the same engineers that worked on M-L products and they decided that the 2 brands would share a lot of key parts such as the output transistors. In other words, the Proceed BPA 2 at $2000.00 retail had the exact same quality output devices that were installed in the $10000.00 M-L #336. The BP2 had 8 of these and weighs 60 pounds while the #336 had 32 of these and weighed 150 pounds. Their AVP 2 processor used the exact same DAC chips that where used in the very over priced #40 processor which I believe was around $30000.00. So I think that this a good example of a company trickling down performance technology into a more affordable product. Bowers and Wilkens is a good example. When they redesigned the 800 series, most of the key performance features were trickle downed to the 700 and 600 series. For example, the Continuum cone material is now used in all three series 800, 700, 600. The 700 series received Aerofoil designed bass drivers another new technology taken from the 800 series. So now the more affordable line receives the trickle down from the higher series. The point you make is accurate too because High End Audio is not in the business of developing features but in delivering the audio experience. Features like BT, networking Alexia and such can be easily added to any High End system by the simple addition of a network audio player that supports those features. Most High End companies want to avoid the potential for bugs that can be introduced when that sort of stuff is done in house. What could be worse for their reputation if something does not work correctly and they have to release numerous firmware updates to fix the issue. Their wealthy customers would get aggravated and would no longer support the company. 99.9% of people want their stuff to work and don't want to fuss with technology and updates. So in the final analysis. High End Audio does use trickle down technology in their ecosystem to give the benefits of the Flagship product into their more affordable lines. They usually are not going be at the forefront of new technology due to the potential for creating issues that might damage their reputation for building a quality product.

@erico888 4 года назад

And since those high-end companies sell relatively few units, they cannot afford to alienate even 10% of their market

@erico888 4 года назад

I also think there tends to be some conflation between how expensive a tech is when first introduced and how over time it becomes less expensive and a trickle-down effect. I think a good example of how engineering can trickle-down is Andrew Jones-designed speakers.

@bigjay1970 4 года назад

Well Andrew, first time I disagree with you! It seems like you totally missed the mark on this topic? Trickle-down technology means the woofer material the Tweeter material the crossover topology that's what most people are talkin about not HDMI or Dolby Digital or any of the other stuff mentioned in the video. most people are referring to the actual Hardware🙄🙄🤗😇 and yes, it does trickle down the hardware that is!🤫🤫🤔😬

@RobertD_83 4 года назад

Class D amplification is definitely a trickle up technology. It started in a much cheaper market altogether with car audio and has been proven and improved for around 2 decades. It's been used in cheaper home audio for at least 10 years but has only received even consideration in the last 5 or so in the high end segment. And many still outright refuse adoption or advertise things such as class AB/D to avoid going all in. No doubt class A and AB have a much more renowned history as "Hi-Fi" but there's just no denying the efficiency and therefore attainable power levels of class D. Imo

@michaelmityok1001 4 года назад

Totally agree on Class D trickling up. Jeff Rowland is constantly pilloried by audiophiles for daring to use Class D in some of his amps. Class D is totally legit, and is a good solution not just because it is cheap and "green", but because it can lead to breakthroughs.

@williamnow146 4 года назад

Good point! I am going to agree. A few years I wanted to get back into vinyl. I wanted a system primarily for 2 channel stereo but also with inputs for HDMI, Bluetooth, etc. I ended up buying a Pioneer Elite receiver and Klipsch tower speakers. Everything is integrated and works and sounds fantastic. iTunes, Apple TV, etc.

@andrewrobinsonreviews 4 года назад

There is no denying that when it comes to things just working out of the box, entry or mid-fi products tend to just get the job done.

@thirtyeyes 4 года назад

What I think happens is that the high volume consumer brands are the ones who are pushing the new tech in THEIR high end audio and then it trickles down to their regular person market. Then the boutique high end picks it up because the item/feature has become ubiquitous and the ridiculously expensive brands are able to perfect the item/feature because they don't have to risk the possibility of the technology becoming obsolete too soon. HDMI is a good example. When I was right out of college I wasn't able to afford the receiver with HDMI so I bought the one with component video and yet it was a fairly expensive (for me) AV receiver. Nowadays everything has HDMI.

@infinite1der 4 года назад

While I mostly agree with your sentiment, I think there are some cases where bits of technology does trickle down. However, I don't necessarily see it coming from high-end/marque brands to consumer level, but within the (lets call them) mid-fi or broad-market brands that make high(er)-end, flagship products down to the entry-level consumer grade gear. As another commenter pointed out, options like room correction, bass management, or licensing for audio higher quality codecs or certifications, etc.; all of those options were reserved for the flag-ship (or upper levels) of the product offerings (we can debate whether or not things like a Sony ES line, Pioneer Elite line, etc can be labelled as "high-end" at another time). Eventually, those options (although sometimes nerfed) would make it in to the mid-tier models during the next model-year followed by the consumer line the next year. This is where I feel like the automotive industry analogy works. I'm not saying that As A Whole this is how the industry "chooses" what the next great thing that only the high-end buyers will want. But, things like high-end DAC chips become cheaper to manufacture over time, licensing becomes cheaper as the market saturates, and demand for these extras from the entry-level markets will increase.

@christboumba4512 4 года назад

Brilliant ! The only thing that trickles down is the marketing scheme. Amp and speakers haven't changed for decades. Only tweaks. The only place where "trickle down" exist is in computer science. Therefore in dacs. Because it's not driven buy high end audio manufacturer but computer science guys.

@kurthertel4299 4 года назад

I think that to say that the arrow always points in one direction or the other is an overstatement.

@bencausey 4 года назад

The blooper reels are very, very fun to watch. Thanks for including them.

@KristiWright 4 года назад

Ben Causey Thanks for sticking it out with us.

@mph7282 4 года назад

I think your comment about we the consumers choosing our sides is spot on. A lot of technology becomes "standard" because we choose that particular technology, and not always because it's the best, but because it's available and affordable to the vast majority of us. You can have the greatest technology ever, but if it's so expensive that only ten people in the world can afford it, it's never going to be developed or deployed on any consumer scale. So there is a balance of improvements in the technology coupled with the access and affordability to the largest segment of consumers. When that happens, you see it adopted by even the high end products because it becomes a general expectation.

@mikebrewster6220 4 года назад

I think there's a possibility that feature set is being conflated with sound quality in this discussion. It's true that low/mid-fi products often have features hi-fi components don't, and thus are the ones developing feature set tech that may later be incorporated into higher end gear if/when a sufficient number of high-end customers desire them. Then again those features are often not offered because they're not of interest to hi-fi product consumers. I, as well as at least a few other yet-to-recover audiophiles I know, do not want a DAC or Bluetooth or any other digital features in my pre, and personally I'd likely avoid buying one that incorporated any of those features. In contrast, with regard to sound quality, there are innumerable examples of trickle down from everything from bearing material, arm design, cartridge technology, etc in turntables, driver and crossover design in loudspeakers, topology in amps, etc, all derived from R&D that went into creating higher end products. B&W tweeter design is one example, while JBL often trickles both driver and network techology down from its (more expensive) pro line to the consumer side, and from higher end products such as it's Synthesis line to the Studio L line (those are just two examples that readily come to mind.) Harman Kardon also trickled down it's Easy Set EQ to a broader set of it's lineup even though I believe at least part that tech was designed with Synthesis multichannel custom installs in mind. Harman group as a whole does quite a bit of tech sharing across brands, most of it trickled down from.the higher end products to its more mid-fi offerings.

@andrewrobinsonreviews 4 года назад

It's not being conflated because the original questions that prompted this video didn't qualify whether they were discussing features or sound, they just said, high-end performance trickles down to entry level. Now, I can see how you take performance to mean sound quality, but performance could also mean video capability, in which case that DEFINITELY trickled up. Same for streaming music and/or services, they largely started as portable solutions (i.e. in your phone) then trickled up. But with respect to sound quality, that is also very subjective. For while we could argue materials and their respective costs depending on quantity or size of your opening order, whether or not those materials result in "better" sound is subjective. Take Beryllium for example. Is it arguably one of the best materials to make a tweeter out of? Yes. Is it expensive, sure -especially when compared to other, more traditional materials. Beryllium will likely remain at a premium price because the material is difficult to work with and isn't that readily available, but that's a supply chain issue, one that isn't likely going to change in order for the "tech" to trickle down. Does Beryllium produce audible differences compared to other materials in both double blind and bench testing? Yes and no. Does it allow a moniker to charge more and market the hell out of its presence -you bet. Moreover, you reference B&W and JBL, both GREAT COMPANIES, but as I've argued elsewhere in these comments, their R&D is funded by the sale of entry-level and/or mid-fi gear, which is not the high-end feeding the commoners but rather the other way round. With respect to JBL or Harman specifically, that brand or family of brands, is supported largely on the backs of car and pro audio where a Lexicon or Mark Levinson badge on the stereo carries weight -not to mention licensing fees ;). It's also where a lot of its engineering gets done with respect to the tech that starts to appear elsewhere in their higher-end lines. DriveCore came from Car/Pro Audio and only NOW is finding its way into Lexicon, Levinson and Synthesis products. Logic 7 and all that, that's pro audio not high-end consumer. B&W is no different. Headphones, smart speakers, soundbars and the like fuel that company, not 800 Series sales. So while it's nice to hear tales of B&W's diamond tweeter going down market, if not for the sales of P Series headphones and Bluetooth speakers none of it would've been possible. I appreciate your comment, and thank you for being a subscriber.

@andrevanstiphout 4 года назад

Trickle up seems a more appropriate phrase. Try remote controls in HiFi. Plain old TV sets had infrared remotes a plenty in the early 80's. Just as an aside, it shouldn't be called "Hi End" but "Hi Cost". I've recently come across a sound system that had a total cost of over $250K. There was enough excessive, highly polished, pointless timber on this gear to destroy a forest. It also had lots of totally unnecessary gold, chrome, brass plating which just added to the weight but did nothing for the sound quality. And I almost forgot: the speaker cables were bigger than the AC main coming into my engineering firms' factory. Yes, there are people that love this stuff but it does nothing for the sound quality. None of this stuff has trickled down, thank god!

@Silvashoots 4 года назад

Great points. My grandfather was an Altec engineer for a few decades from the 50s-80s. Before he passed, he was deeply concerned about the loss of institutional memory. Most of these hi-fi companies don't even know what innovation looks like anymore. The fact of the matter is that most high-end "audiophiles" are noveau riche and not connoisseurs by any stretch -- and have no idea what they want or need in a system. 50 years ago these people read trade publications where Rudy Van Gelder was waxing philosophical about how he enjoyed 604Es for mixing. So then they bought a bunch of studio equipment and this pushed companies to if not to innovate -- at least make high quality products to match the studio booths in sound and then repackage in an aesthetically pleasing way. The best would take the studio template and make great products with innovations for the home. This does not happen anymore, primarily because most audio journalists and you-tubers do not have direct access to the recording studios anymore. How many audiophile journalists know what a good mix sounds like on a JBL 4315s, 604E, etc.? Only in Japan now, I think. As such, hi-fi manufacturers can repackage crap at a high markup and sell it to non-audiophiles. If anything it is damaging industry.

@dir390 4 года назад

High-end audio companies are usually very small and cater to a niché market. Their focus is on expensive esoteric materials that make their products feel exclusive. Creating new technology is not a priority for them, and most of them don't have the R&D muscles to do it anyway. The high-end audio landscape is dominated by older technology like vinyl records, tubes and class A amplifiers, as there is a dominant belief in high-end audiophilia that these archaic technologies have "purer" sound reproduction than modern digital tech. So it is as you say, in high-end audio new technology trickles upwards from the mass market, as most high-end audio companies are luxury oriented, not technology oriented. If you look at pro audio on the other hand, things are quite different. There you can still find plenty of "trickle down" technologies, one good example is the JBL M2 with its waveguide. It trickled down into the JBL LSR305 monitor, which in turn became a big hit in the budget monitoring market and very popular as a computer speaker as well. Pro audio companies like Genelec, JBL/Harman, Kii Audio and more are very much technology oriented and have big R&D budgets, and they don't cater to a niché market. So it's no coincidence that the best pro audio companies work at the bleeding edge of sound reproduction, and do so without any of the fancy "boutique" fluff of high-end audio.

@julianjosephs8822 4 года назад

I'm not an audio industry expert but my background is in IT. Technology always trickle down as a rule due to the cost of research. When a new technology is released, we aren't just paying for the implementation, we pay for the research that went into this technology. This makes the initial introduction more expensive for the user which is often bundled as a high-end offering. From there, the early adopters and power users become a test case for the average user. If the top end likes the feature or product, it's then optimized for cost, production, etc to make it more affordable to the average user while turning an even greater profit. As a solid example look at NASA and all the technology that we take for granted today such as aluminum, preserving food, and upside down pens.

@beitie 4 года назад

I think a lot of the comments about this "Trickle down" are made, but I think another question needs to be asked before an answer is given; who is high end? There was a point in time when Pioneer, Harmon Karden, Yamaha, Sansui, and other brands were considered high end.

@CHBen_ 4 года назад

I both agree and disagree with your statement: There's a difference between trickle down and adaption. I think when these people talk about trickle down they talk about new technologies like the Continuum driver from B&W, which is now found in the 600 series, but was originally designed for the 800s. We all know that B&W isn't going to spend millions on making the 600s sound better, but when they have already done the R&D they might as well implement it. What you're talking about here is for example the usage of HDMI. ONKYO, Marantz, Sony, Pioneer and Denon are all mass producers and all compete with each other, so they have to always be on the bleeding edge of technology. So if theres a new HDMI standard they have to jump on the "bandwagon", so they can say they have the newest and best technologies available. A High-End audio company on the other hand wants to see how good these things are before investing much $$ into R&D. Of course the mass consumer is to thank for the free R&D they do when they buy a new and barely tested device with a new standard. Also some High-End companies don't have as much money for R&D as for example Marantz, so they can't always utilise the newest tech straight away.

@luminiferous1960 4 года назад

The technologies that "trickled up" which Andrew mentions, like HDMI, USB, blue tooth, voice command, etc., are interface and convenience features not technologies for improving sound quality. Traditionally, the audiophile trickle down theory has been about technologies that improve the sound quality, not technologies for improving the interface and convenience features. Therefore, although what Andrew says is true about the "trickle down" theory when applied to interface and convenience features, he misses the point by a mile for the original concept applied to audiophile sound quality. So the question of whether or not the "trickle down" theory is true when applied to technologies for improving sound quality is left unanswered. The answer to that question, which this video left unanswered, is what I want to know.

@brois841 4 года назад

Trickle down effect, not trickle down theory, but yes... innovations trickle down. It's not feasible to start at square 1 and build something for the masses. The technologies mentioned are already mainstream technologies and are essentially commoditized. Andrew's argument holds no water.

@curtiskoch4731 4 года назад

I agree with you on Audio tech isn’t trickle down. However in other areas of tech, say TVs, trickle down is obviously true. I think it’s a function of the age of those who can afford and desire the super hi-end audio. Turntables tape decks, tubes, discrete circuits; I’m not arguing their bad, but this nostalgia for keeping the old while making it better works against integrating the latest greatest ideal that powers the trickle down economics of other areas of tech. A tube amp may sound better, but such is highly subjective. Maybe this niche of audio is just different.

@woodstock480 4 года назад

In addition to your "bloopers," I also enjoy the off-the-cuff conversations between your wife & yourself at the end of your videos. Great videos all-around.

@KristiWright 4 года назад

brian l. thank you, Brian!!

@mcaddc 4 года назад

You are so correct on this, and I agree 100%. To me, the "high end" in hi-fi gear equate to high end components / parts. If anything, the high end audio industry, is still stuck on their old tech. Just optimizing the implementation of it. For instance, still using tubes...

@QoraxAudio 4 года назад

Yes thats high quality vs high tech

@thisisnev 4 года назад

@@QoraxAudio A lot of those tubes are made cheaply in Russia or China, so tell me again about high quality. ;¬)

@isaacsykes3 4 года назад

Easily one of the better debates to be had here on this channel. Let's start with the old adage that if you put three audiophiles in a room you'll get four different opinions and the reason being is because their usually a little bit of truth in each one. For example you and the commenters are both right...and before I get accused of fence straddling, let me caveats my statement in that it depends upon what technology is being referenced in said component. Additionally, we have to take into account who/what companies are we defining as high-end audio, or are they just large companies with a sector in high-fi. For example if I were arguing on behalf of Raul, I could point to various ads of high-fi companies that state almost verbatim that utilizing technology derived from blah, blah, blah speaker line or series, now found in whatever mid-fi, line. Then on the other hand their the example that you gave of the voice assistance. If we're talking music formats, we know that something like DSD, has been around since the CD was invented, and has much greater sound quality than an mp3, or standard CD, however poor marketing, and various other litigious issues kept this from being the music format of the masses, and a reemergence of intereste now it's offered as a boutique feature on high end audio components, even though I have a PS3 that's going on 15 years old, that can play and decode DSD off SACD's. So it just depends, to be honest what I see is more of technology being sat on until it's a) able to be marketed, or b) their is a large enough demand for it. You mentioned Apple, and although they get a lot of credit for be innovative, they are also notoriously known for being slow to adopt a new technology, usually preferring to wait for the kinks to work themselves out before integrating it into their products i.e DLNA. I apologize for the length, however I do hope that you read it, and I look forward to any and all feedback...Be Blessed and be safe.

@classicrock7890 4 года назад

High end often means high price with expensive casework. Generally too small companies to be involved in leading edge technology.

@kevingest5452 4 года назад

Trickle-down does happen with Technology that is constantly improving. I remember when electric windows, Fuel injection and air bags were special things that only the luxury cars had, then they were only available in the highest trim levels of non-luxury brands, and now they are standard equipment in the base model Honda Civic….. Speaking of that new Honda civic, it’ll mop the floor with any vehicle available 30 years ago. The technology to make a little sine wave into a big sine wave that can be used to vibrate cones and reproduce sounds is old technology. We have been able reproduce 99% of the sound quality a given set of ears can perceive in a given room for decades, so the differences in any system since then comes down to subjective preference and varying levels of attainment of that last 1%. Audio quality cannot and will not improve continuously because there just isn’t that much room for improvement within the boundaries of our ears and room acoustics. I still think the best sounding stereo I’ve ever heard was my Dad’s Pioneer system that he had in the house when I was growing up. Probably because I was young with perfect hearing, we lived in smaller house with smaller rooms, low popcorn ceilings, and wall to wall shag carpet. It was so easy for 17 watts per channel to fill that house with wonderful, echo-less sound, and so easy for me to hear it. Now I live in a house with my system in a big great-room with smooth dry-wall vaulted ceilings and tile floors. I’ve got 40-year-old ears that used to live on Navy ships with guns firing and aircraft landing. I’ve got a throw-rug in front of my speakers and diffuser panels scattered about my walls, but I’m still chasing the ghost of my childhood stereo system. The only real improvements have been more about availability of music and connectivity of that music than sound quality. As you demonstrated in your review of the Pioneer SX-430 (my Dad’s was a SX 535), you can stream music on a computer connected through a Schiit modi to the RCA inputs on a Pioneer receiver older than some peoples grandparents and get sound that competes with modern systems.

@haraldperryrhoden1986 4 года назад

I see the trickle down effect in one industry,the car industry. I think you are right regarding stereo/home theatre.

@feraldart 2 года назад

Cars are all over the place. Examples can be found that support either side of the argument. A Bentley is expensive but isn't necessarily more technologically advanced than a more mainstream entry-level luxury car, it just uses more opulent materials and bespoke options. They were using a fifty-year-old engine when VW bought them and modernized their components and powertrains (The Mulsanne still used it up until 2 years ago). OTOH hand a Ferrari or Pagani may have a very powerful engine and F1 racing-derived tech, but that would have little use in a pickup truck or minivan that needs to be reliable and affordable and perform a totally different task.

@BunnyslippersEUC 4 года назад

You're right. I will give two examples. - balance armatures are in cheap IEM and expensive IEM...around the same time. - bluetooth started in cheap headphones and much later with brands like Audeze and Dali. - touchscreens first in smartphones and much later in DAP's. High end DAP's are still crazy unresponsive compared to cheap smartphones. Ok three examples. In this age lots of smartphone related technology will end up in hifi, tv's, drones, cars, pc etc. You know technology for the mortals.

@bujoun76 4 года назад

Yes! "Trickle down" isn't real in any arena. Including politics.

@bobsykes 4 года назад

I pretty much agree with you, especially in the consumer originated technologies you gave as examples, such as Blu Tooth and HDMI. One example I can think of where super high-end technology did trickle down, however, is in self-powered monitor loudspeakers. Self powered monitors were a professional mix engineer's industry standard for decades now, since the '80's or '90's, with brands such as ATC, Tannoy, Genelec, and KRK offering some extraordinary monitors. Those were almost all extremely expensive and virtually never marketed to consumers. Now, there are a lot of self-powered monitors, many at substantially lower price points than high-end consumer monitors, that are designed and marketed specifically to the home listener.

@AdrianIII 4 года назад

Features are trickle up. Sound quality is trickle down. Agree?

@andrewrobinsonreviews 4 года назад

No, I do not, because sound quality is somewhat if not entirely subjective, so it’s difficult to quantify or qualify what has precisely trickled down.

@SStrandh 4 года назад

Andrew Robinson I love your channel so dont want to bash you or anything but I have been wanting to ask you about this for a long time. You always say sound is subjective. For me this is strange coming from a person that was invited to Harman and has embraced alot of their research of how sound functions etc. You know that sound isnt subjective when you dont know the look or the brand behind the sound. Atleast that is what their science show... Did you disregard the science or do you mean something else when you say sound is subjective?

@andrewrobinsonreviews 4 года назад

I mean something else. While I can show you a "perfect" loudspeaker -i.e. one that measures better than the next or its nearest competition -that doesn't mean that every person who listens to that loudspeaker is going to agree with the measurements or figures. They may prefer the "worse" speaker because preference or personal tastes/bias play a role in what we like in terms of sound. I do believe in science when it comes to the design of anything in hifi, but I also understand that science can mean little when it comes to one's personal preferences. I prefer the Klipsch to the JBL L100 Classic, even though, on paper, the JBL may actually be "better", and yet I prefer the Klipsch. It's possible in this instance to be aware of the science while still allowing for my personal tastes. Does that help?

@SStrandh 4 года назад

@@andrewrobinsonreviews Ah ok. I understand what you mean. I sometimes want a speaker to sound better because of its look and brand and sometimes I sacrifice performance for looks. Speakers are furnitures ;) ...but Harman has proven that when you dont know which speaker or brand you are listening to then your "personal taste" doesnt matter and the speaker that measures best always "win"... thanks for the reply and keep up the good work.

@TropicalGangsters 4 года назад

I think there's trickling both up and down. Up is about gimmicks and connectivity, putting more technology in smaller or single machines (but not necessarily better technology), down is about cherrypicking old expensive quality ways of reaching hi Fidelity and putting it in cheaper machines.

@gernblanston7895 4 года назад

I think a basic summary of the topic that both "sides" of the issue would be: Features come from the bottom up, sound quality comes from the top down. I think this to a degree harkens back to the 70s and 80s, too. Think autoreverse cassettes, remote controls, digital tuners, integration with video (remember fm simulcast modes on lower end Technics and Sony receivers?) Front panel connections for games/portables multi source/ multi room, iPod, app remotes, HD radio, etc. all came from home theatre in a box, bookshelf stereos and now powered smart speakers. Sound quality such as lower bass, improved frequency response, higher s/n ratios, better stereo separation, higher compliance phono cartridges are a result of r/d of the higher budget consumer. Crosley is not going to make playing records better, but it may make the idea integrating digital streaming into an audiophile product necessary to avoid a non-audiophile housemate from winning a purchase argument with "you think it sounds better, but it can't even (enter tech feature here Alexa, stream, Bluetooth)"

@gurdyman1 4 года назад

I believe, when it comes to audio electronics, the technology has always trickled up. Starting with the earliest tube designs, affordable radios and phonographs were the primary goal, so as to sell as many as possible to the average person. True high fidelity came into being in the 40's and 50's, based on what was known in the 30's, but improved. The technology of making tubes and transformers was already there on the average equipment, but making transformers larger (to get deeper bass) and closer tolerance winding (for increased treble) was simply doing a more expensive version of what was already known and being done. It was already known how to make tubes. Making tubes with wider range and flatter response was done by tube manufacturers who were already doing less expensive designs. High end circuits were simply modifying what was already out there. When transistors were invented, they were first used in simple and cheap circuits, like portable radios, before high end manufacturers made superior wide range amplifiers. I can't think of anything that high end thought up first. High end always "borrows" from basic affordable designs and just makes them better with more elaborate circuits and boutique parts.

@The_Mental_Christian 4 года назад

Think of it from a marketing view as well. Supply and demand. The ones that sell the most are middle class income based households who logically would not buy a Ferrari for a daily driver, but even vehicles now have so many features that they didn’t have in the last few years.

@joshuagray7469 4 года назад

I think the comments were referring to sound quality, you're only speaking to features.

@christboumba4512 4 года назад

There is no new technology coming from high end audio. They're using the same technology from 40 years ago with tweaks. Only dacs have changed and it's not because of high end audio brands but computer science guys.

@aeromaniac13 4 года назад

I feel like they're one in the same, no? I mean yes, sound quality is something that can be improved with high-end components and technology, but the average consumer is less worried about imaging and more concerned about whether their new component can provide streaming and ease of use. If it weren't for entry-level, low-priced companies like Sonos, then we wouldn't have LSX, Rubicon, etc. If it weren't for Fiio, would companies like Chord electronics created components like the Mojo? If it wasn't for Bluetooth, would we have had LDAC? I guess it's kind of, "did the chicken come before the egg" situation in some sense, but I do think that the middle class consumer market shapes the path for many companies. Now I just sound like a Marxist, holy shit. Thoughts?

@rocco036 4 года назад

Mola Mola’s Kaluga monos first used Hypex NC1200 class D power, yours for $16,500 a pair in 2016. That technology has trickled down very nicely & sit in my Nord Acoustics NC1200se monos at less than a quarter of that price. They sound amazing. Apollon Audio, Rogue Audio & a few other companies also use the Hypex NC1200 technology. I think if there's any trickling down with technology it's going to be class D.

@RobertD_83 4 года назад

Class D started being used in cheap(er) car audio amplifiers way back in the early 2000s where they were trying to get more and more power for competition. As looked down upon as spl competitions are from audio snobs class D may have never realized it's potential (and efficiency) if people weren't trying to be as loud as possible for 5 seconds at a time. I know you're speaking specifically of home audio but I'd argue that class D was proven long ago in an all around cheaper market than home audio before it trickled up. And even if one or two niche products existed in the home audio space it was democratized in cheaper products and finally proven before most high end companies would even consider it. Back in the 90s people were running 5ft long class A/AB (cheater)amps that claimed to make 50w. They actually made 5-10 times that at lower resistance but that's beside the point, now there are 500-1000w amps that fit in the palm of your hand. But that's just my take.

@rocco036 4 года назад

Robert D I totally agree with you. Just saying I benefitted greatly from some trickle down technology from some pretty pioneering work by Bruno Putzey with Ncore amplifier modules whilst he was working at Hypex. Jeff Rowland used the original Ncore technology in his Model 825 amp in 2015 costing $32,000!! It has advanced a lot in just 5 years, who knows where it will be in another 5. And hopefully in much more affordable for everyone.

@RobertD_83 4 года назад

@@rocco036 ah, I see. No doubt it's evolved very much in recent years, I too see it being integral in years to come. Cheers!

@GregorMima 4 года назад

Expensive highend hifi´s problem is ChiFi. 10 years ago something like the Topping/SMSL DACs would have been unaffordable. Same goes with speakers, why suddenly companies like Triangle can offer sub 500USD (perfect sounding) speakers. Electronics are getting cheaper and better. In my opinion the past years "Highend" is the current midrange in some cases entry level. Wharfedale Evo line is a good example. Another very underestimated part is software. I know for a fact lens calculation software in the photo industry improved alot over the past 10 years, back then when you needed multiple expensive (handmade) test samples nowdays it´s all developed and simulated in software. You can say the same for electronic components. "Virtual" testing and simulation got so much better. So yes the trickledown is probably true to some extend, R&D for the "expensive" line used then in the lower end models. Just the R&D part of a product gets cheaper and so much easier nowdays with good software.

@contemporaryhomeaudio 4 года назад

Once the high end "adapts' and "adopts" they like to take credit for 'finally' doing the technology right.

@MODAC 4 года назад

You made excellent points, but why did you not talk about speakers? Aren’t they using exotic materials and fancy electronics in lower end models now, that were only seen in fancy ones years ago?

@andrewrobinsonreviews 4 года назад

Well I didn't talk about speakers because I thought going the route I did provided the easiest, most clear-cut examples to make my argument. The problem with speakers is, you need to qualify a few things first, for not every high-end moniker has lower end products to "trickle down" tech to. Plus, those brands that do have multiple tiers of products, likely have their upper echelons funded by the sale of mass market products, in which case it is the entry-level or mid-fi products that make the R&D at the higher-end (if you believe in that sort of thing) possible. So is that not a form of trickle up rather than trickle down? For without the so-called cheap stuff these brands don't even get to play with high-end. We will likely be doing a part 2 video to go over speakers. Thanks for watching!

@thisisnev 4 года назад

The fact that there are still high-end manufacturers using old-tech like paper for their drivers suggests that the case for using exotic and fancy is far from proven.

@markwilson0077 4 года назад

Nailed it! It is what it is...Preach!

@ThinkingBetter 4 года назад

Good point. Component manufacturers doing modern advanced components still need some volume to make business profitable and those very low volume audiophile companies cannot drive advanced component R&D. Rather, typically it is the high-volume brands like Samsung, Apple, VIZIO and others doing trickle down technology from their top-end models to the more mainstream models. The highest-end Samsung, VIZIO or other TVs will be where you find a latest HDMI chip, for example. Perhaps in some cases, DAC chips and specific op-amps can find a high-end brand home first.

@sean_heisler 4 года назад

Great video but was a bit different than I expected. I do think you nailed it from a very broad standpoint when considering the industry and tech as a whole. But as some others have pointed out here, you do see some trickle down tech/quality within brands. Take B&W for example, you've seen some of the tech in their top-tier range show up in a similar form within their mid and lower-tiers over the years. On an even more fine level, I have a Musical Fidelity integrated amp that uses one of the best laser cut resistor stepped attenuators around and it's in every one of their products, from the bottom to the top, and surely that wasn't developed initially for their entry level models. Things like that. Schiit Audio made some changes to their mid-level Bifrost DAC recently that were driven by their top-tier DAC's and the Bifrost 2 has markedly improved. But anyway, from a broad standpoint I do think you nailed it but in a more granular sense I think you can find some trickle down within HiFi brands.

@agentm83 4 года назад

Yeah, I've been perusing hifi brand websites lately, and I've seen some promote this idea of their higher end hardware making it into their more "consumer priced" (tweeters and such) products. It makes sense on an intuitive level, but I get where Andrew is coming from too.

@GrahamTriggsUK 4 года назад

It really depends on what we are talking about. New technology, things that involve an extensive R&D process tend to debut at a higher price, and then as the investment is paid off, and the technology becomes cheaper to manufacture (with scale), it becomes available cheaper. An example would be OLED TVs - the first models to hit the market cost 10x what you can pay for a new one now. When DVD players first launched, they cost over 10x what an entry level DVD player costs now. At the same time, manufacturers tend to know their market. You can't introduce a new product, new technology at a price that won't sell - it has to be developed to hit a price that stands a chance in the market. The initial OLED TVs were expensive, but there was a market - a small market - for them. Whereas smart speakers needed an ecosystem - and companies like Amazon and Google can't bring out these products at the high end initially. They need to target the consumer market. Once they gain acceptance, other manufacturers can / need to look at including them. But lets not forget - before voice activation became commonplace in the consumer market, they started out in the high end smartphone market - it started high end in one segment, came down to consumer and then up into high(er) end audio. Things like HDMI and DACs have a very complicated history. Arguably, there wasn't any reason for 2 channel equipment to include HDMI for the first 5 years, until it started supporting 1-bit/SACD. Even then, there was serviceable audio only digital interfaces - no need to include n AV standard. And in the early days, we only had one digital source - a CD player. Back in the day, it was more important for people to be able to upgrade their DAC as a separate component, than having to upgrade their amp with an integrated DAC. Then we got more digital sources - particularly amongst the average consumer with games consoles, streaming devices, etc - when it became more convenient to have digital inputs, and to put DACs in amplifiers. Because this happened out of convenience for the average consumer, it started happening in cheaper devices. Once bandwidth and streaming services improved, then it became more relevant as a requirement for the more demanding users. But it would be easy to overlook what happened in developing DACs in high end spaces before we ever got to the point of being integrated into consumer-level two channel audio.

@redstarwraith 4 года назад

This. This was brilliant and past-due. Thank you for saying it.

@andrewrobinsonreviews 4 года назад

Thank you so much for tuning in!

@dsnyder0cnn 4 года назад

Great topic. I do see examples of both, and sometimes, both occurring at the same time. These days, features tend to be trickle-up while fundamental engineering and technology are often trickle-down. For example, the JBL 3 and 7 Series have tech that came down from the JBL M2 (okay, that's pro audio, so different market, but an easy example since I'm standing next to JBL 305's at the moment). Circuit and DAC filter design from AMR, reportedly, had an impact on their lower-line iFi Audio products, but, the feature set has been crowd-sourced from posts on Head-Fi. Some of these ideas may eventual "trickle-up" into AMR. They have already influenced iFi's "Pro" series of components. On the home theater front, innovation seems to be most rapid at the entry-level. Perhaps, new HDMI standards and video/audio codecs require a broad base of adoption before boutique manufacturers are willing to make the investment in R&D for their bespoke designs.

@eastgreenlander5016 4 года назад

I’ve heard and read a lot of speaker manufacturers use the trickle down technology when releasing midrange speaker series. Kef on the “R” line and Dynaudio about the just released “Contour 20i” comes to mind.

@brucecarter6205 4 года назад

Dynaudio openly talks about trickle down tech all the time. The Evoke line is solid full of trickle down tech from their higher end ranges.

@chrome2infinity938 4 года назад

I have to agree with this. I dont think high end audio is all about technology. I feel its about quality, materials and craftsmanship. There isn't enough demand to fuel innovation in the high end. Just a opinion though.

@findingwithterry 4 года назад

High-end is often synonymous with expensive and boutique. I am not making a value judgment here. What I want to say is that a lot of high-end is made by small companies with dedicated single-goal development teams working to make exquisitely crafted small market items. The customers for these markets want value-added products that look gorgeous and are hand made with rare materials. Mid and low-fi products are made by large companies with huge budgets and sales volumes that offset the development costs. And are targeted towards customers who are willing to forgo bespoke and hand-crafted gold trim and esoteric material for ease of use, chock-o-block features, and integration with the home, smartphones, etc. In a sense, it's the large companies that churn out the high-end (albeit affordably), while the so-called high-end companies are actually luxury companies. Cars are a great example. Expensive Ferraris are less reliable and less hi-tech when it comes to their navigation systems, etc. than their everyday Toyota counterparts. But it seems sexy looks, engine roar, and zero to sixty in under 3 seconds is hard to beat for those with the cash to spend.

@andrewrobinsonreviews 4 года назад

Just wanted to pop in and say thank you for becoming a member. We really appreciate it.

@pegun 4 года назад

Schiit Bifrost 2 dac using the same multibit dac chip found in the higher end Gungnir multibit dac, is this considered trickle down technology?

@thisisnev 4 года назад

Trickle-down only ever worked within large corporates who had R&D departments funded well by volume sales, and a wide product range. Philips and Sony were able to plough huge sums into developing CD, which launched as a premium format but trickled down from high-end to entry-level over several years and recouped its development costs through volume sales and patent licensing. I'd argue that there are actually very few real advancements in audio technology nowadays. The real heavy lifting was done by the corporates' R&D techs in the 70s and 80s. Look at the advanced technologies from that period which are almost unheard-of today: linear tracking turntables, biotracer tonearms, quartz-locked direct-drive turntable motors, heat-pipe cooling of output transistors, honeycomb speaker drivers. In contrast, most of today's 'high-end' audio could have been made in 1980. Small companies just don't have the money to spend on R&D and neither do they have mass-market product ranges for developments to trickle down into. What you're paying for in high-end audio today is low-volume, hand-built production runs and exclusivity.

@essexheraldcom 4 года назад

Trickle down or trickle up? I started my love of Hi-Fi back in the 60’s. Valves (tubes) were still in everyday use and stereo records were still quite rare. Big bands like The Beatles still released records in mono. Transistors were still finding their way onto the market and were seen by many as unreliable. Then came the 70’s. In my opinion the golden age of Hi-Fi. Everyone had a stereo, record players became turntables. The quality of sound reproduction was increasing experientially. The difference between a good turntable and a bad one was enormous in 1970. By the end of the decade that gap had been narrowed quite considerably. Advances in engineering and mass production made the difference in quality between the top ten turntables was only a percent or two. Even budget entry level turntables were fairly decent. It got to a point where it was almost impossible to squeeze any more out of vinyl. By 1980 I would argue that the best turntable and amplifiers had already been invented. Then came the 80’s, digital. The first CD players on the home market were enormously expensive. Far beyond the reach of the average Jo. Also the amount of titles available on CD was limited, mostly classical music at the start. If CD players were going to catch on then the price of the players and expansion of CD titles would have to extend into the pop market. Also the price of CD’s would have to come down to a level comparable with vinyl. This is where trickle down became a market necessity. The major music labels wanted CD’s to be successful. They had a problem with pirating and at the time believed that CD’s couldn’t be copied. If only they could see the future. Back to today and I agree with you, trickle up is defiantly the order of the day. It has taken the big player’s ages to catch up with popular culture. Today’s digital reproduction has got about as good as it can get. I really don’t see where the industry is going to go from here. It’s almost impossible to build a crappy player. We have reached the top of Perfection Mountain. Where do we go now? On the down side I believe that digital has killed music. For me it started with the shuffle button, putting musical works out of context. I know that not every vinyl LP is a work of art but many were. The playing order was important. It’s even worse today; people are downloading single tracks form albums such as Pink Floyd’s The Wall. Totally out of context. What’s the point of making a concept LP if people only play the tracks with a catchy tune? Anyway, that’s another subject. Thanks for listening to me and keep up the good work. Kindest regards, Harry

@greghandy4746 4 года назад

I think we are talking about two different concepts. I do agree that new standards of technology may not start at the top end, but that is somewhat expected. For me, trickledown technology means a manufacturer spent substantial R&D on a tweeter (existing product) and figured out a way to make it perform to a higher level, and now that technology or some resemblance of that technology is applied to lower-cost products within their lineup. We can't deny that happens, and when we say tickle down, that is what we mean. On the other hand, you are absolutely correct that the state of the art in way of connectivity or new standards like surround decoding tends to find its way first in lower-end products to determine demand. I have often wondered if it makes sense for a manufacturer to maintain multiple SKUs (Stock Keeping Units), once they have determined a better way. The only reason to do so would be to maintain a good, better, best product line, and charging more on the upper end when you can get it, but also capture the less wealthy person, with a lower product line - even though it may cost the same to manufacture. For example, once Focal created their W sandwich cone material for their Utopia line, does it make sense to keep making the three to five other materials for the lower line - even if it costs the same to manufacture. I think over time after the fixed cost of the new design is paid back, and the manufacturer realizes it is actually costing more to maintain the other methods, trickle-down technology becomes less expensive, while performance improves, which is a win for everyone.

@iowaudioreviews 4 года назад

I'd say speaker technology has had the trickle down effect with things like soft dome tweeters and rubber surrounds and cone materials. On the other end of things Class D amplifiers seemed to have started on the lower end and made their way up to hi end now days. Trickle up effect exists because affordable priducts sell in higher volume and is less of a risk. If the tech proves worthy then more costly low volume high risk products go through all the motions to implement it into their products. I noticed this as well in the commercial computer to home computer space.

@danielwander605 4 года назад

I think it’s relative. When you’re talking about less important things like Alexa, Bluetooth, etc. then it probably trickles up. But expanding systems to more channels, flexible bass management, software based room correction then that stuff seems to trickle down imo.

@andrewrobinsonreviews 4 года назад

I would normally agree with you, but auto room correction was largely an industry created by Audyssey (or at least they made it commonplace) and they were in budget receivers LONG before high-end processors got with the program. Dirac and the like maybe higher end solutions in theory or comparison, but they too are YEARS behind Audyssey in terms of market penetration.

@danielwander605 4 года назад

Andrew Robinson that actually did occur to me as I was typing. That I didn’t know the history of room correction. I just see what’s available now. So I guess it does trickle up and then hopefully back down again with the better software and more flexibility. Something that really has disillusioned me recently is how bad the firmware is on some of these higher end receivers and processors. Reading how bad these products are when released is quite shocking. Then it takes months of firmware updates to get the product useable but still with bugs that buyers just need to accept. I assume The ability for the end user to update the firmware Is what has led to this but it feels like we are going backwards and forwards at the same time. It’s especially hard for the people who may have to stretch their last dollar to buy a product they really want bc they can’t just write it off as mistake and buy something else. Off topic but I would love to hear your thoughts on this in a video one day.

@SalvadorFrieri 4 года назад

It makes perfect sense. If I were buying a $20K amp I would only want tried-and-true technology and not something with experimental components that might not stand the test of time.

@teletheates 4 года назад

"Trickle up" is right on the mark, when it comes to hi-fi. The more esoteric high-end brands are usually small boutique manufacturers with an understandably limited R+D budget. The major advances to the state of the art have come from the lo-to-mid-fi giants like Sony or Philips of days gone by or Samsung and LG of today. They are the ones who can afford to just throw a lot of money at random research and see what sticks. The high-end manufacturers will then come in, once the dust settles, and "refine" that new state of the art with a little bit more attention to voicing (as well as little niceties like hand soldering and braided cabling)...

@gnd144 4 года назад

Andrew Jones said "The Tweeter Technology From Our Higher End Speakers Is Trickling Down", he was talking about the Elac Debut Reference DBR62 specifically. The video is on YT. With today's computers/technology the trickle down phenom is obsolete, imho.

@andrewrobinsonreviews 4 года назад

I find that if a brand is more known for its budget offerings -be it loudspeakers, amps etc. - they're more keen to use the phrase trickle down than a company that isn't for it DOES aide in sales. Understand there is little that has to actually trickle down to keep the claim from being false. For what it's worth. Thanks for watching!

@kevonmanuel 4 года назад

Give this man the title of Guru. Well Said.

@robertferguson2171 4 года назад

I can recall shopping for an upgraded AV receiver about 10 years which would have WIFI, Airplay & streaming functionality. The reaction from most high end audio shops was just a disdainful eye roll before they launched into a sale pitch on the superiority of separate components and the evils of unnecssary "bells and whistles". The bottom line is they didn't sell the tech flexible gear I was looking for or had the opinion that anything to do with computer audio or digital streaming was something far beneath them. Well fast-forward 10 years and digital streaming is all the rage on most of the snobby high end stores are out of business.

@mattschmidt2164 4 года назад

Andrew's analogies incorrectly focus strictly on tech features such as onboard DAC/bluetooth/etc. A company like Pass Labs will develop a better sounding component in their "cost no object" products and then find a way to scale that innovation down to future products in their "entry level" line. The trickle down is under the hood, not on the dashboard.

@buttonman1831 4 года назад

I agree 💯

@brucecarter6205 4 года назад

Exactly.

@amb3cog 4 года назад

Yea, uh. No! Please cite one example of an expensive Pass Labs product that trickled down to their entry level product, and that normal people can afford. So say an amp under $750. Just to be generous here. Really a budget amp is $500, or less IMO. But $750 is fine. Actually. How about just telling me about a Pass Labs component that's a new innovation? In many cases he's just using old stuff in a new circuit. He's not breaking new ground here. He mainly makes class A amps. Those have been around since my Grandmother was a kid, and she's been dead for about two decades now. His amps aren't cutting edge technology really. Just a good circuit design that's made as simple as possible, and with high quality parts to achieve the sound he looking for. It might be an original circuit, but hardly a new technology.

@mattschmidt2164 4 года назад

@@amb3cog Sorry bro, I can't meet your narrow definition of affordability and innovation. If you read reviews of the XP-12 preamp you will find it borrows tech from their flagship XS preamp, which is about 6 times the price of the XP-12. And yes, normal people do buy Pass Labs stuff. I'm one of them.

@thisisnev 4 года назад

@@mattschmidt2164 Normal people don't buy high-end audio at all, Matt. We're all in a minority group here.

@mjjm6220 4 года назад

Andrew...right but also wrong...Going back to the start of HT, many, many rich Audiophiles had no use for MC audio. They were only interested in stereo high end. So thus the main reason high end bucked at HDMI. In the late '80s into '90s an audio store in LV (The Upper Ear) had zero of intention to jump into HT, eventually, that decision did cause them to close their doors. But that does show the mentality of that time. And lets look at HDMI...it was hardly the pandora the AV industry was saying.....problems over and over in the early stages....and how much better audio quality would be...as in, only HDMI is the only way to go..BS. But now for trickle down....in this past decade...JBL M2 Reference Monitor...many JBL models to come along after the debut of the M2 are in fact in one way or another, a chip off the old block.

@bigjay1970 4 года назад

Exactly!🤗😇

@amb3cog 4 года назад

It's just as real as trickle down economics is.

@Gez492 4 года назад

Pretty much agree, you just watch how the "high end" bone collectors will turn their arch nemesis into a cash cow. I am of course referring to Class D. The technology has advanced so much in recent years that class D is now rivalling AB and the "high end" manufacturers will monetize this relatively cheap way of producing honest power into multi 1000's of dollar amplifiers then set out on convincing the eager suckers that somehow they have re invented the wheel.

@pdmerritt 4 года назад

One thing I think you are missing here is when the original person said high end... What did he consider high end? From an economical standpoint this surely happens. Some people would call a Jaguar high end but there are others who wouldn't consider high end until you go Bentley or Aston Martin for example.

@andrewrobinsonreviews 4 года назад

High-end is subjective as you so clearly point out. I chose to go with examples that I felt made my argument more objectively.

@KristiWright 4 года назад

Good morning, all! Be sure to watch until the end! We have a special announcement :).

@AromaFrank 3 года назад

Hi, For music listening which should i buy a integrated amp or receiver? Thanks

@marcosgama2879 4 года назад

I totally agree with you Andrew. Very good point.

@andrewrobinsonreviews 4 года назад

Appreciate it!

@johnbrentford5513 4 года назад

A lot of what I have seen in high end audio is not a advancement in technology it's just over kill are technology adapted from a different industry. A turn table with a fifty pound platter are using materials like carbon fiber.

@spaige660 4 года назад

Great topic! Enjoyed your take & the ending was hilarious!

@andrewrobinsonreviews 4 года назад

Thanks so much!

@davemoritz2174 4 года назад

I would have to agree Andrew. I feel in the past this was true but I do not think this is the case anymore like you said. You do not see Krell, Lexicon or MacIntosh offering the newest features with the newest surround decoding and other features. You see companies like Sony, Yamaha, Denon and now Marantz offering these features well before the high end brands. The high end brands are now less likely to adopt new features or offer new players before they see that the market is supporting said features and or hardware. First to market for 4K Blu-ray players where Samsung and then Sony and LG and also Panasonic and Oppo made a great player as well. But high end brands are more likely to wait instead of offering features that may not sell well and be supported by customers.

@Rockhurst22 4 года назад

Much like anything in life there is always two ways to look at it. One which you mention but the other being a trickle down way. For example a new / better driver like in KEF speakers. Time and research will be spent on a driver for the higher end models before it is sold in “lower” series. So I think yes you are correct that there isn’t only a trickle down but a trickle up as well.

@jayedgar2373 4 года назад

High end audio has been (for the better part of the last decade) mostly about materials. High end has focused of things like point to point wiring, silver connectors and wiring, high end capacitors, ect. Those things are expensive in nature. The build quality of higher end will always be expensive due to the materials and build process. Those things won't trickle down. But, the technology (such as HDMI for example) started at the lower end as you said. HDMI is a digital communication medium initially. Since audio is an analog medium, HDMI is merely a digital interface for things like Itunes and streaming sources. I am waiting on a high end digital DAC/Player (with tube gain stages) to reach the market. I am currently running a Cambridge Audio CXN for my player. Since HiRes audio has a greater sound sample (response range, ect.) than standard CD's (16/44.1 to 24/192+) higher end audio is slow to build/release DAC/Players with the encoding for FLAC, AIFF, ect. So, with this situation, I totaly agree that the high end audio spectrum has not moved forward with the HiRes music that is now out there. True HiRes audio is now being "remastered" for HiRes and not just digital copies that are upsampled. To get the quality and fidelity of HiRes music files, high end audio companies will need to build and release (with the more costly materials and builds) with HiRes music files in mind. I think that is a better example of where technology needs to push upwards to the high end audio companies.

@andrewrobinsonreviews 4 года назад

Great response, truly. I do think the build quality argument is another one that is a little out of date, for a lot of high-end brands get their casework or cabinetry work done overseas at a pennies on the dollar. I won't name names, but there are brands a plenty out there that command $5K+ per component and who are lauded for their "build quality" that are buying off the rack so to speak from overseas. But I agree with much of the rest of your comment. Be well!

@jayedgar2373 4 года назад

@@andrewrobinsonreviews Yep, high end (even extreme high end) will cut corners to make more $$$. But I was speaking from components and there materials (components inside the components and the labor involved) that are quite expensive. Capacitors for example. V Cap and Audio Note capacitors can run over $1,000 each (output stage caps). But even high end audio can be found using cheap oil/paper capacitors. Point to point wiring is labor intensive as well. Those things are inherently expensive. That was the point I was making. And, in many cases, once a level of high end quality is reached, the same performance can be found in a cheaper component. To me, it is what is under the hood. A lot of high end component companies will not even show you what is under the hood of that $15,000 pre amp. So, as many audiophiles pursue that glorious sound, understand what your getting may not be worth the price. But as always, sound is subjective. If it cost $15,000 for that pre amp you really love, then go for it (way out of my price range) but I can almost guaranty that a cheaper pre amp (with the similar or same internal components) will get you to that same level of sound.

@jasonmichaels4791 4 года назад

Interesting video. My answer is it depends. Some categories of products seem to be more trickle up tech and some trickle down. Analogue technologies IMO trickle down - a manufacturer figures out a new material or technology (that is often costly to develop or manufacture), then they implement that new idea in their flagship products and if enough consumers are interested the manufacture then figures out how to make it, or a 90% version of the tech for less. Examples of this are companies like REGA which tend to change parts (eg bearings or materials) in their higher end tables and then roll out these ideas on their less expensive products. Headphones and speakers seem to follow this model too. IMO Digital tech seems to flow the other way. For example wireless tech didn't appear in pricier equipment until it had seen traction in lower end products.

@gregarioussolitudinist5695 4 года назад

hearing aids or q-tips is what most audiophiles really need.

@andrewrobinsonreviews 4 года назад

Maybe. Pretty cheap sound hack too I might add. :)

@spaige660 4 года назад

Don't forget the Blue Blockers.

@thisisnev 4 года назад

And a daily dose of get-over-yourself juice. ;D

@donjohnstone3707 4 года назад

Higher price is no guarantee of better quality.

@gmoschetto1 4 года назад

It has trickled down to me by way of garage sales. The key has been to go to high end neighborhoods first thing Saturday morning where the folks are just trying to get rid of their old stuff before the wife discoveries the new stuff. I have never paid more than $7 per unit and at current used value have $7k worth of rigs. Sometimes when dad passes away the kids want to dump those great big floor speakers. Once I turned down a working Mac tuner for $7 .

@MostlyBuicks 4 года назад

You are lucky. Here in Tucson there must be only 2 or 3 audiophiles. (and counting down). I go to the rich neighborhood's estate and garage sales and all I see are old Sanyo or Panasonic rack systems bought at Dillards or Goldwaters department stores. Just once I would love to stumble upon a ProAc speaker or a Threshold amp! And as for the used guitars for sale in shops, nary a Gibson or Martin to be found. They are all Korean, Mexican or Taiwan guitars. Tucson is a mixture of the very poor or the fairly wealthy who have no idea what true high quality stereo is.

@gmoschetto1 4 года назад

humbuckerpickups : I'm in Upstate NY in an IBM town 60 miles north of the city It is cold here in winter so many folks move south and unload their rigs quickly. You are where they go after they left it behind.

@markjnrowiredu-gyening4158 4 года назад

Please I have this same model Can you please help me to stream music on my phone and play via the receiver using Bluetooth?

@johnoakes7922 4 года назад

I would say Class D will be the leader and preferred over Class A/AB by 2030. What we have been calling top notch audio will be dwarfed by high end tech 10-15yrs from now. We will be able to color the sound any way you like any time you like easily. We will be so good at shaping the audio we are listening to and very easily.

@anonmouse956 4 года назад

Class D's efficiency means in the end it will be better at the same price. You need a smaller power supply, no heat control and other cost savings from efficiency. In the end Class D will win though I think tubes will always be a niche market.

@natewilliams5464 4 года назад

I think it works both ways. In the late 70s when there was a fuel crisis in the US, companies made bare bones electric cars for the general population. Though some technologies like tape recordings were usually too expensive for the common consumer and eventually became affordable and convenient

@Prerich45 4 года назад

Off shore manufacturing....yep...especially outboard dacs.

@supersonicsid 4 года назад

Video tape ,Home cinema, Laptops, in car phones were all for rich people to start with then they give it to the mass market. because something better comes along.

@andrewrobinsonreviews 4 года назад

I believe in the beginning of my video I did qualify my remarks by saying, in recent years I don't think trickle down is true anymore. Maybe back in the day, but definitely not so much in 2020. I'm not going to argue the notion of trickle down in the 80's or early 90's when new tech was truly new, and economies of scale hadn't yet kicked in, but now, in 2020, it's a different world.

@supersonicsid 4 года назад

@@andrewrobinsonreviews I remember things like PDA they have morh into smartphones, and digital camera was 1megapixel and i thought i will get one when there 5mp way past that now, coming from me who only had vinyl back in the day. all the best .Sid...

@yvesboutin5604 4 года назад

I see your point but in a way, it is always those with big budjet on R&D and marketing who lead the way on new products we get in stores,for better or worse.

@Kmahomie 4 года назад

This great stuff for us folks jus getting into . Appreciate you man.

@andrewrobinsonreviews 4 года назад

My pleasure!!

@m5Yb7Ds 4 года назад

How do you become a member to view the member only channel?

@andrewrobinsonreviews 4 года назад

Waiting on a final RU-vid check then you'll see a JOIN button appear next to the subscribe button on future videos. Hitting that will unlock the features and allow you to decide whether or not you would like access.

@andrewrobinsonreviews 4 года назад

Our channel membership just went live. You can look it over here: tinyurl.com/BecomeChannelMember

@pmizz7959 4 года назад

I think there is an argument on both sides but I think the argument needs a differentiation between proprietary technologies and non proprietary technologies/standards. As with connection standards such as hdmi and Bluetooth an individual company has no control over the standard so including a standard in a high end expensive product only for it to be outdated a year from now would surely upset their customers. On the flip side if a speaker manufacturer dumps a bunch of R&D into a new tweeter technology they are likely to put that new tech in their high end speaks for a few years before that makes in down to more mid range lineups. They need to recoup that R&D money somehow.

@user-ri4rl2md7y 4 года назад

I'm warming up to seeing his face on screen 99% despite being kind of an equipment review channel, mostly because Kristi is so lovely.

@jeb419 4 года назад

Yeah that's an interesting concept. Look at class D amps. You can buy the chip amps, including the GaN class D chipsets for really cheap. Now high end audio companies are making class D amps for really expensive prices. I get that they put in research and build them into a nice package, but you can get cheap class D stuff if you do a bit of work yourself. Also looking at tube amps, they fell out of fashion in favor of solid state and then some tinkerers and old school guys kept using and building tube amps, and they came back into fashion and made it into the high end audio field once again.

@aeromaniac13 4 года назад

I like what you said and it got me thinking. It's so easy to think of proprietary/esoteric technology being put into entry-level products as "trickle-down" technology (kind of like how B&W's diamond tweeter is now found on their lower-priced 700 series), but really I feel like that's more of a necessity rather than a "trickle-down". Market demand and a company's necessity to make a profit are what drive these types of innovations. I don't see it as, "Chord graced us with their FPGA DAC technology through their Mojo"; I see it as companies like Fiio dominate the market and have a large portion of the market share, and if Chord doesn't figure out a way to adapt to the new demand, they will be forgotten and may go under. I like that some of these high-end brands use their special technology in their more affordable lines of products, but it definitely brings to light that the average consumers' purchasing trends are what drive companies to make products that are marketable as "trickle-down"; they have to survive too, and I think that's something people forget! I think active loudspeakers are such a good example of this. Sonos and Bose dominate the speaker market to a point where "non-audiophile" people LOVE the sound and the convenience, forcing other companies to produce all-in-one products in order to not be forgotten and to turn a profit while still maintaining a market foothold. I mean, I definitely love that NAD made the M10; its streaming and room-correction technology all included into a price point that isn't unfathomable makes me really appreciate that company more, but I don't think of it as "trickle-down" as much as I think of it as, "How do we stay profitable in a landscape that's evolved into 1-component systems". Now we have Elac, KEF, Bluesound, and Denon all producing active loudspeaker solutions, all great ways of rivaling a company with a large market share, with their own proprietary technology, as a way to stay afloat. I'm sure these companies are doing okay money-wise, but if they didn't work quickly, they would have lost a large profit potential.

@a.m.2531 4 года назад

I don't think the trickle-down effect has anything to do with the intent of the source. Whether out of necessity or good grace of God, if it happens it happens. That it happens all the time? Maybe not. But the fallacy I believe is to presume that it never does.

@user-ps4ci7lo7r 4 года назад

100% of my high end audio was bought 2nd hand Craigslist lists finds, I do visit some wealthy homes , the only time I feel the trickle down

@Projacked1 4 года назад

Agreed....and I love extra the extra bits, makes it more fun to watch. :)

@andrewrobinsonreviews 4 года назад

Glad to hear it!

@pietsteyn8667 4 года назад

I 100% agree. It happened in cars as well with touch screens, connectivity etc. and it continues to happen. I have to pay extra to have apple carplay in a Porsche but it is standard on an entry level Ford!

@Prerich45 4 года назад

It used to...now it seems (especially in speakers) its trickling up. Elac started with an affordable speaker first and took the world by storm.. the result is the Adante speakers which isn't a cheap speaker. It's also in electronic gear and software....I remember introducing you to JRiver, and then you ended up surpassing it. Now the industry has "network devices" with windows 10 that have taken what PC users have been doing for years!!! Yep...you know....you're right.

@Saturn2888 4 года назад

Based on your reasoning, I completely agree with what you said; although, I think the reasoning doesn't make any sense. Technology in a brand new 2002 Ferrari will absolutely never have any impact on my Toyota Sienna minivan. It's the premium models that are going to dictate the features in lower-end base models. A great example is automatic transmission. I remember 20 years ago when it was still cheaper to get a manual transmission. In the same way, that super high-end audiophile stuff isn't affecting the mainstream market because it's not the same market. It's people spending a lot of money on the Yamaha Aventage models that determines what ends up in the lower end. That $300 Sony receiver doesn't have Bluetooth or WiFi today, but all higher-end models do. I'm sure it will be standard feature even on base models in 2-5 years.

@CrashCarson14 4 года назад

The cheapest $100 Sony stereo receiver (not even an AV receiver) has Bluetooth. DH190. But the 5000ES doesn’t.

@wowrada 3 года назад

Andrew destroying the neoliberal economic agenda in 15 minutes :D

@steverees1936 4 года назад

I agree with what you said with regards to WiFi and Bluetooth etc but the likes of KEF have trickled down technologies from their Reference series speakers down to their new R series speakers and this is just one company. Q Acoustics are another company that have done the same. I see technology sharing going both up and down. The now common DAC, which was pioneered by Musical Fidelity was only accessible to wealthy folk. Now there are more affordable stand alone DACs available. Great channel by the way Andrew. It's refreshing to see a well presented and professional hifi channel so keep up the excellent work. 😊

@khoi83 4 года назад

Paradigm speakers does the trickle down too, from some of their technologies of their best series, the Persona series, down to the affordable Premier series. It works because those Premier speakers look and sound very nice without the super expensive (too expensive for many) prices of the Persona speakers. cheers.

@khoi83 4 года назад

and who from us mortals can afford a pair of KEF BLADE (2), and anyway if you have a pair of Kef Blade you must have a "high end" music room that fits with those wow speakers too!

@MostlyBuicks 4 года назад

Home theatre is the bane to highend audio. You are mostly talking about mid-fi department store stuff here.

@andrewrobinsonreviews 4 года назад

Home theater is the sole reason a lot of brands high-end and not are still in business in 2020.

@MostlyBuicks 4 года назад

@@andrewrobinsonreviews I agree. And back in the day the inferior VHS took over the Superior BETA VCR format. There is a difference between successful and superior. More people watch TV than listen to music in the active sense. Home theatre pretty much supplanted high fidelity. Hey more people eat McDonald's than at fine steak houses too. More people drink Coors than a fine wine.