Just look at the restart of the direct stopper between Liège and Aachen with I11, I10 passenger cars and Class 18 locomotive. It IS definitely that good. Before that a stopover at Welkenraedt or Verviers is mandatory.
saw a few ads about taking this service to paris for the €39 fare during my week vacationing in Belgium by train, thought it was a regular service! Real glad to hear they're planning to make it so!
Love to see more competition on this route. TGV technically also runs trains from Brussels to CDG and paris Disneyland so there is some alternative there too. Took this last year for a third the price of Eurostar.
Multiple times going to Amsterdam, I went the slow route by Taking the intercity direct to antwerp, regional trains to Lille and then a TGV from there which usually was doable, and a whole lot cheaper when using interrail, avoiding the insanely high booking fees of thalys if even available
In Switzerland, high demand led to increased frequency. In France the timetable is the same as 30 years ago, although reservations are mandatory and all trains are fully booked days in advance. And if an SNCF employee spots a free seat on a TER, you can definitely assume that fom now on there is an (even) shorter unit running there - because the current one is not full.
@@juliusbax5299 23:00 would be ok, but for example from Colmar to Basel, the last train is at 20:53 - to be honest noone wants to have diner in Colmar anyway, there are as good as no restaurants 🤣🤷♂️
9:59 This. People like to complain about SNCB/Infrabel but we do have way above average infrastructure quality despite decades of underfunding and while there's a lot of catching up with construction going on right now, overall our network of standard speed is very solid. Compare that to France where many places are basically decaying before our eyes... edit : also we're well under way to have a fully ETCS network in the next couple years, not too long after Luxemburg. We came back from having abyssal rail safety systems to top of the line in just over a decade.
@@andrawaagmeester3290 Except everything I've talked about has to do with Infrabel and nothing with SNCB. What ? You're a frustrated commuter whose train was late, dirty, broke down, had no toilet paper ? So all of a sudden our entire network and rail system *has* to be bad blahblahblah ? Sorry to disappoint you and your little individual frustration.
Back in the day - we're talking 1989 here - a friend and I took a classic international train from the Netherlands - at a guess, Breda - to Paris. As soon as we crossed the Dutch-Belgian border, the Belgian locomotive broke down. Possibly an HLE 25 or HLE 26; I'm not very good at Belgian locomotives. We were stuck in the middle of nowhere for a while, until a diesel locomotive came to pull us to probably Brussels. The conductor suggested we close the windows, because of the exhaust. In Brussels, another locomotive took over, and while it could have been an NMBS HLE 18, it was probably an SNCF CC 40100. In fact, now that I'm writing about it, I remember that it was this _really_ long locomotive with its unique and distinctive front. In Gare du Nord, where the platforms are rather low, it looked even more impressive. Not pretty, though. It's arguably one of the ugliest locomotives ever constructed. I've also done the same trip, although this time from Amsterdam, with a Thalys. Legroom was pretty poor, but it was a lot faster, and it didn't break down. One thing, though. As a Dutchman, I'm probably prejudiced, but I _love_ the look of the latest NS intercity trains, like the one in Brussels. All other train companies in Europe and beyond have nice, but also safe, corporate, somewhat boring designs. It's a bit like receiving a letter from your insurance company. And unfortunately, NS local trains are a bit like that, with their predominantly white colour. But the intercity trains, oh boy. They're bold, _very_ yellow, with one of the most iconic and recognisable logos emblazoned over the height of the train. There's nothing subtle about it. You don't have to ask yourself, 'gee, I wonder where this train is from'. It's like when you see a sportsperson dressed in orange: you know it's Dutch.
Competition is key. There is not enough long distance passenger train competition. Eurostar is owned by SNCF and SNCB so they wouldn't want to compete with themselves.
The problem with capacity is that there are also a lot of passengers from the netherlands, and capacity on the antwerp brussels line (specifically the tunnels in brussels) is very limited. So if you want more international trains, you have to cancell local ones, or you have to dig an exremely expensive tunnel underneath brussels.
SNCB did officially state they don’t want to compete with Eurostar but to offer extra capacity. Starting from December, the train should replace an existing TER line (probably the ones to Maubeuge) and take over it’s stops instead, making it much more viable
A spokesman of the SNCB said that the train is not a competitor to the Eurostar service (which competes with the aeroplanes), but this train competes with the car.
@@holygooff it is more a general problem, competition requires capacity, and countries refuse to create it as it will disrupt the monopoly of "their" railways (thalys (now eurostar) is located in belgium, and currently has a huge share of all amsterdam-brussel routes (alongside a monopoly on brussels-paris).
"Would you take it? Definitely yes! My last few trips to Paris with Thalys have been a nightmare because of the frequent delays! When you have to make a connection in Brussels + high prices, it's tough!
There's nothing more European than an international train stopping in a random border town, because crew changes. Also the TGVs can be coupled up to increase capacity, which you should've mentioned I think. I'm in the camp of people who say this won't be a game changer, as it's temporary and made by the owners of Thalys.
While the Eurostar (Thalys) is awesome for its ability to jump between both cities in just 1h20, it's absolutely true that we need more rail options. Eurostar is too expensive, cramped, and annoying to board. Last time we went from Brussels to Paris, train left 10 minutes late because the boarding process went so slow. And we were put under pressure by stupid security agents shouting at us to use other doors, but the other doors had as many people queuing before them than ours. With 2 doors per 80 seats carriage, the i11 coaches are meant to handle high demand (and they also have 2 toilets per coach). So, a cheap alternative is more than welcome, even if it lacks any kind of service. But it has what we really want : - Decent fares - Decent comfort - Decent luggage space Thanks for your great review. While I appreciate your enthousiasm, don't forget Eurostars can be coupled to form a 750 seats train. However, i11's can ride in 12-cars trains. This should be envisaged, with a couple of accessible and bike-friendly coaches. Let's say : 2 x 1st class (120seats) + 2 x accessible coaches (+- 100 seats) + 8 x 2nd class (+- 640 seats) = 860 seats.
I really miss the "Izy" trains that used to run between Brussels and Paris until 2022. I guess it wasn't technically "competition" to Thalys since it was also operated by them, but it was a great low cost alternative to the high-speed train. Really great to see the return of a low cost option now. Hoping it will be made permanent in December!
11:03 Actually the statement "Aulnoye-Aymeries hasn't seen a direct train to Belgium in decades" was not correct: there were 2 direct services between Aulnoye and Mons daily (one in each direction in the morning and evening) before the extension of S63 service from Charleroi to Erquelines towards Maubeuge, the latter December 11th, 2022.
Great trip. It's great to see classic train coming back for international events. I hope it can becoming daily in the future since the ridership is good.
Another cheap alternative with some changes: TGV Eurostar/Thalys from Brussels to Lille around 30 euros then TGV OUIGO from Lille to Paris CDG around 10 euros. If you want to go to the Paris city centre, you need to take a regional train as well. I did it already a few times and I really enjoyed it, it is good to take a small stop in Lille :)
Unfortunately, the evening Ouigo 7660 to Tourcoing could connect to the last IC/TER to Belgium in theory, but in practice, with just 5' to change, who dares to risk it? This could be such a useful train, but unfortunately, no coordination. In reverse, it's slightly better with 12' to change onto the Ouigo 7867, although in theory, you are asked to be on the platform half an hour before, as they do entrance checks, including luggage checks...
Conversation overheard at 7:41, "amai da's wel een schoon station" (wow, pretty nice station), couldn't agree more, I had no idea Mons had a modern station like this :D
looking good, but was extremely expensive for such a small city in a region that suffers from unemployment, lack of education, and crumbling infrastructure.
@@homesinternational8015 Building a cheap junk station is not going to improve any of the things you mentioned though. Basically those things are unrelated.
@@youuuuuuuuuuutube yea, it"s so much better to waste hundred million euros on a super-super station, instead of investing in better schools, better working conditions for teachers, or just maintaining the highways in a decent state (people do break their tyres in the potholes in that area).
The problem is not that there is only one solution, but rather that the solution is a bad one, as Eurostar is today. A public monopoly, if well managed, can be extremely efficient. For Paris - Brussels, we need a TGV service with more capacity, as well as a EuroCity service like the one developed here, at a reduced price. If there were the political will, it would work like a charm. In any case, this cooperation between SNCB and SNCF looks like a success!
This is exactly true. The TGV from Marseille to Paris is effectively a monopoly but the prices stay reasonable and the service is great. I take it all the time and it’s great. The only competition it has is basically the night train.
I enjoyed taking the traditional line while recalling some of the named trains that used to traverse them some time ago ! the blue bird , the brabant,& the North Star to name a few.
This is the classic travel of trains instead of the boring Eurostar ! I like it and i hope they keep this train ! Maybe this one will be the slow IC to Rotterdam in the future !
Aulnoy aymeries Actually had a durect train to Mons since I took it in 2022 to gi ti Paris also (In the morning I took a train to Aulnoy aymeries and then took a trian to Paris Nord)
Correct, but with some 3 trains a day, it wasn't really a success, which made them the first trains to get cancelled when there was a lack of staff or any other issue, so SNCB chose to concentrate their efforts on the Charleroi to Maubeuge link, which also had an abysmal service, but sees a regular, but slow 2-hourly service since last December, with rather encouraging numbers, I've been told. For Mons, there is a bus route by the Walloon bus company TEC between Mons and Maubeuge that connects in theory with the trains to Paris. This train would probably supplement it.
Merci. Merci à vous, Thibault, et merci sous conditions à la SNCB et la SNCF. Je leur adresserai un vrai merci le jour où ce service IC représentera une véritable alternative à l’Eurostar, c’est-à-dire: plus que 2 dessertes par jour, arrêts en France (pour le moment, Bruxelles reste coupé du département du Nord et de la Picardie), suppression de l’obligation de réservation et enfin intégration tarifaire (pour l’instant, si qqun veut faire par exemple Louvain-Orleans, il doit acheter 3 billets séparés). Bref, voyons si ce train est l’amorce d’une vraie concurrence ou juste un feu de paille.
Le retour du Classique Paris - Bruxelles sera bénéfique pour une majorité de voyageurs scandalisés par les brix des billets Eurostar, même pour un simple Bruxelles - Rotterdam, les prix sont exorbitants ! J'irai tester cette nouvelle liaison d'ici peu ou peut-être à la fin de l'année ! Merci pour toutes tes vidéos qui me donnent envie de voyager de plus en plus en train ! 💯👍
Awesome. I heard about this train, but I thought it would only exist during the olympic games. Good to see that it could become permanent. It's good that this is a new alternative. In the last years I frequently took Flixbus, because Thalys was too expensive. A train is much better though! More comfortable and apparently much faster. Flixbus takes more than 4 hours or so. The wagons ae the exact same as are used on the line Antwerp-Ghent-Lille. They are okay. Very interesting to see a SNCB train in Paris Nord! :D
While officially, nothing is decided yet, they have asked for time slots from December, so I if they are even slightly serious about it, this should be continued, they haven't invested in getting staff trained for this train just for a few weeks during the Olympics and Paralympics. There is a chance that from December, it will run under the Ouigo brand in France, though, not SNCF proper, and admittedly, I have some mixed feelings about that. Prices might even drop further, but that would likely mean that Interrail/Eurail as well as staff tickets will still not be accepted, cutting off a huge potential for travellers.
Alternatively, you can do Paris-Lille-Bruxelles or Paris - Roissy-Charles de Gaulle - Bruxelles, to take advantage of the Lyon - Bruxelles TGV operated by SNCF. This will be much cheaper than Eurostar and typically take less than 2 hrs. Plus, if you have a Navigo pass, the Paris - Roissy airport leg is included in the pass.
Best coach the SNCB ever had. Sadly a very limited amount of them were made. This should have been our flagship IC coach for the turn of the millennia. A Belgian "Corail" of its time.
Tere are TGV Inouis that run the brussels to Paris line, the just only stop at Massy TGV, Marne La Vallee Chessy, or Charles de Gaulle Airport, which is fine but none that go to Paris Nord
I love seeing SNCB/NMBS innovating like this. Belgium is the perfect country to travel by train and there has not been enough investment in trains for many years! I hope when the new government forms we get a minister for transportation and mobility that realizes this.
The Brussels-Mons-Paris IC connection will be definitive from December. This new train connection was launched this summer for the duration of the Olympic and Paralympic Games. that must be good news 🙂
As a Belgian I had no idea this was a thing. I’d definitely take this train if I were to go to Paris. Also, call me stupid if you want but as a Belgian it gave me a warm feeling to see a nice SNCB grey train stationed in Paris. I hope in December this will be a thing.
Rode the Thaly's train once it was so beatdown and empty..everyone would rather fly for cheaper and arrive faster but at the cost of the environment. Glad that another service is available at affordable prices. European trains are amazing and just need more frequency and cheaper prices to make them better than flying.
I travelled by Eurostar from Paris to Düsseldorf via Brussels and got a non refurbished train. Oh god it was SO uncomfortable, wide seats but barely any leg space, even less if you were in the window. And to top that the AC didn't work well at all while being 34° outside
Later this year the I11 coaches will also be introduced between Brussels and Rotterdam fir the “Benelux via Breda) service in conjunction with the Brussels to Amsterdam “Benelux fast” service. But it would be great to have 1 or 2 of these train pair be extended to Paris.
Well, previously, the alternative to go to Paris by train (instead of Eurostar/Thalys), was going to Lille and transfer to a local train for Paris there.
Really nice. I hope this will put an end to all issues with Thalys/Eurostar. When Thalys started their service to Cologne in 1997 they had like up to 7 connections per day (7 north, 7 south). Picture that! Now it's down to 3 on most days with that insanely low capacity. It became really difficult to even travel that line. It just became obvious that the train units were way more expensive than initially thought and so SNCF (main stake holder of Thalys! don't forget that) never reordered more units. It's like a non service for years.
It's slightly better, there's a minimum of 5 Eurostar departures from Cologne, and there weren't any ICEs back than, so overall, the frequency to Brussels did improve, albeit not to Paris. There are talks to recreate a longer IC line from Ostende to Köln (and maybe Düsseldorf, but at least to Aachen), which could also alleviate some of the pressure.
@@barvdw That's true but the frequency to Brussels didn't improve really as before the ICE connections were installed there was already that SNCB IC line Köln - Ostende with more connections than the current ICEs provide. So back then there were more connections.
@@1dree1 depending on the dates, some traffic will also be diverted through the curve at Antoing, going to Brussels via Mons. There has not been regular traffic over that curve since the end of the Thalys via Namur (and during the week(?) where Brussels-Midi was closed to convert to a new signalling system.
@@1dree1 but that train ran every 2 hours, while now, there's an hourly service to Aachen (which connects to both the RE1 to Köln in Aachen and the IC-01 to Oostende in Liège) and to Eupen. I'm not exactly mad that they focused their frequency hikes on the more local and national services. With a combined 12 HST departures between Köln and Brussels (5 EST and 7 ICE), even long-distance has stayed pretty much the same, especially since DB is looking to expand their number of trains to Brussels...
@@barvdw This is incomplete. Yes, there was the Köln-Ostende connection every two hours, but there were also 3-4 ECs to Paris and two more ECs to Brussels/Ostende. So adding all of this up, there was an hourly connection back in the days too - just with more capacity.
I'm very happy to see this train, but balling it Eurocity, without any form of restoration, is quite a stretch. It also doesn't accept any Interrail pass.
While I too miss some form of catering, the requirement has been dropped quietly for years, now. And this train is still in its experimental phase, SNCB takes on the commercial risk on its own and wants to see the results first. That said, chances are that from December, the train will run under the Ouigo brand in France, so still not Interrail accepted, unfortunately.
Nice!! An Olympic alternative (50€) to the overpriced and complete Eurostar (100€) that deserves to be applauded as well as this superb video even if the offer is temporary. EC SNCB /NMBS HLE 18 ES60U3 Eurosprinter Siemens and i11 cars. Until August 11, while waiting for a permanent connection, but purely technical reasons and discussions between the Belgian and French operator leave good hope of seeing this Eurocity connection via Mons become definitive... 😎
You're absolutely right that Belgium-Paris deserves lower prices, a higher frequency and more capacity. I'd like to add that leaving from Brussels South is cumbersome for everyone living north of Brussels. In my case, living near Sint-Niklaas, the most efficient solution is driving 1h10 to Lille, taking the Metro to Lille-Flandres and a cheap TGV Inoui to Paris. On my latest return trip I set a new record of about 2h35 travel time, which is amazingly fast.
Enjoyable video as always Thibault, many thanks. Yes, you’re absolutely right, there needs to be far more competition to Eurostar. That’s especially true on their routes out of St Pancras, London. Private or state monopolies are not good for consumers.
A few months ago, at Quevy near the BE/FR border, a worker was hit by an electric shock because only one part of the line was shut down for operations. From what I heard, BE turned off the electricity but not FR
Merci pour cette super vidéo, j'ai bcp appris. J'ai adoré l'expérience aussi, et nom de ****, nous avons en effet besoin de cette ligne et de prix accessible pour Bruxelles Paris en train. J'espère que cela sera confirmé très bientôt !
The cynical view is that this is another attempt by SNCF and SNCB to pre-empt open access operators from starting competition with Eurostar. As long as it is developed and they start accepting Interrail then it is a positive step, a hard no on it being turned into a Ouigo product.
I wanted to go to Paris from Belgium with my mom but we were shocked at the prices, planes were even less than half the price! That's absolutely not how it should be.
So glad that Belgium is getting back into cross border services. After the rolling stock facelift on the Aachen - Verviers service, the introduction of the Charleroi - Maubege, the new Aachen - Maastricht - Liege three-land service and the expected introduction of Brussel - Rotterdam slower ICs - the ONLY service I'd love to see return is the Lille - Antwerpen direct IC - changing trains at Kortrijk is so ridiculous.
Ce sont les trains rapides que nous avions avant l'ère du TGV et personne n'en est mort. Bien au contraire, on peut se détendre et regarder les paysages que l'on traverse sans stresser. Mon seul souhait : augmenter fortement le nombre de trains Intercités ou autres Eurocity et diminuer celui des TGV dont beaucoup commencent à circuler en journée presque vides.
2x1221 people. That is like 20 full buses, 600 private vehicles with 2 persons.. As this video showed at 2:13 . You may have a try to find Eurostar tickets at a reasonable price for tomorrow ! When there is anything happening with Eurostar , you're screwed. It is like a bottleneck basically. The friday of the Olympic Games opening there was sabotage at several positions with High Speed lines. To have this train operational is a let off then ..
It's a temporary service for the Olympic games and it's way slower, not a game changer. Yes, Brussels to Paris by train whilst avoiding Thalys/Eurostar when there's no special services running, requires a changeover, but it doesn't take significantly longer than this temporary train for the Olympics and requires no early booking to get a reasonable fare (compared to Thalys/Eurostar). This is just people trying to snag the unaware through a marketing effort to get their trains filled, whilst you could to the same through regular, scheduled services for, arguably, the same result.
This could be a real game-changer, getting people off cars and even planes. And a few extra stops could drive up numbers and fares down. Let's hope SNCB/SNCF see sense with this one!
Feels like we should point out that it's not really competition. Eurostar is majority owned by SNCF, the same company that runs this train. They're not really going to want to compete with themselves, are they? I can see a limited service of one or two of these slower trains per day, with a few extra stops, but not more than that.
Let's hope this train is made permanent and there is more advertising for it. I'm sure it would be a great competitor to Thalys/Eurostar. I'd be interested to know the price of 1st class because that looked VERY comfortable!
I took the IC Brussels to Amsterdam last month. also 39 eur. ok 3h30 but still worth it as Eurostar is too expensive and always sold out on weekends. good to see this now as option to Paris
Great video. Great to see some competition on this important route. There needs to be more options so that such short distances are not always covered only by flights or high price rail/bus. Also great to see the rainbow pride flag displayed on one carriage exterior.
That was afcourse the high speed train to Brussels from NS but there will also be a train from Rotterdam to Brussels with Belgian coaches ! It will start around 15 of december this year !
Very nice! This is exactly what we need! €39 is a very competitive price, and I really don’t care about an hour extra travel time. I saw on TV that the older coaches that SNCF used for the Etoile du Nord are now rusting on some train yard in France! How about renovate these?
To maintain this train, some political help would be beneficial. And that will then depend who will be the next minister of transport in the new Belgian government, and also who will be the major of Mons after the October local elections in Belgium.
Another great vid! Question: If there is high demand, instead of being unavailable seats, cant they just add another coach or 2? Bet it only takes 15 mins.
franchement j'ai peu d'espoir que cette liaison devienne definitive. La sncb et la sncf font deja tellement de chiffre avec le thalys qu'il serait inutile pour elles de proposer un autre service avec en plus un prix inférieur
To be fair if you book three months in advance, Eurostar can be quite cheap (30e for AMS - PARIS), way cheaper than this. If you are booking it only a month ahead then the prices are already very high however.
you are wrong, this train can run just as well on the high speed line because the carriages and locomotive can handle a speed of 200 kilometers per hour
But the high speed lines are 300kmh. A train going slower than this takes up much more capacity. A high speed line works best when everything travels at the same speed.
@@jasonclaes787 We were specifically talking about the High-Speed line between Brussels and Paris, which was built to French TGV 300Kmh standards. If the SNCB Leuven - Liege line is 200Kmh and the NS non-high-speed lines are also 200Kmh then the ICNG is running at line speed, which was my point. I know that the Dutch HSL-Zuid was built for 300kmh, as the former Thalys units can do and the Eurostar 230’s can exceed, but at the moment it is not a line that is anywhere near as busy as the TGV Nord line so the ICNG can run at 200kmh as there is space capacity.
I'd definitely take it and it seems criminal that this isn't already a thing. I understand that politicians want to get to between the two quickly at the tax payers expense but this seems like a no brainer to me. Thanks for highlighting it 😊
I would like to take this train and not the Eurostar. I would like to know how SNCF will react, when this Service is successful. Maybe cheaper prices, we will see.
9:48 tracks form Mons to Quevy are in a bad condition. Infrabel (the society in charge of belgian railway network) has been neglecting the maintenance of this line for years. I hope they will change their mind with these new international trains
Merci pour cette review Thibault 👍 Je pense que cette ligne ne survivra pas malheureusement car il s'agit d'une pseudo concurrence sachant qu'Eurostar appartient à 55% à la SNCF et 18% à la SNCB et que la SNCF veut lancer OUIGO Classique vers Lille. Par contre, j'ai hâte que de nouveaux acteurs se lancent pour briser le monopole dans le Tunnel.
I don't agree with all the claims you make in this video. As a student, seeing that the cheapest ticket for this EC train is 34€ is honestly ridiculous. I got Eurostar tickets for 24€ and I only booked them 3/4 weeks in advance. And yes that is during the olympic games in Paris. Also I'm not sure about your claim saying only 350+- people can be on the Eurostar. From my memories, it's about double that amount. Or at least 500. I believe this train is vital nonetheless, as it services the city of Mons and it's sad that the inhabitants of Mons don't have a direct link to Paris. This train connection could also be enjoyed by future Interrail users. Also your point about the BlaBlaCar(Bus) and Flixbus is totally correct. If this EC can decrease the amount of busses between Brussels and Paris, it would be preferable. I think SCNB/NMBS needs to provide catering on the train if it wants to remain competitive.
You were quite lucky, then, and very flexible with your departure, probably. Even for next month, I can hardly find any cheap Eurostar tickets left on the main departure times (not everyone can get to Brussels in time for those early morning departures...) I can still find those cheap tickets on the Eurocity for this very week. A Eurostar unit (ex-Thalys) can carry 377 passengers in the unrefurbished, and up to 404 in the refurbished seats because they closed the bar in those, but can run with a double unit (and often does...), so he's not that far off with 350 passengers. The blue Eurostars to London are a totally different beast, double in length and having a capacity of 758 (old sets) to 902 (new Velaro sets). While I would like to see a little snack and drinks cart, I doubt SNCB will reinstate it. After all, this journey takes roughly 3 hours and some change, that's the same length as many domestic services, who also don't have catering, and that includes the IC to Amsterdam. I also hope for Interrail acceptance (and staff tickets...), but if the rumours are true and it runs under the Ouigo brand in France, I'm doubtful they will.
Fun fact about the eurostar prices. Amsterdam to Paris and Rotterdam to Paris are cheaper then Antwerp to Paris or Brussels to Paris, FOR THE EXACT SAME TRAIN. Even more ridicoulous, for the Antwerp to Paris route, it can be cheaper taking an NS train to Rotterdam then take the eurostar from Rotterdam to Paris passing through Antwerp. The logic of dynamic ticket prices people. But yes, this new Brussels to Paris route is definatly a game changer. It's a shame that it's only running during the olympics and paralympics games. While great for the fans, it's not a good test run. Obviously the olympics is driving up passenger numbers, so as a test run it's anything but representative. If the train would have also been running from august 12th untill august 27th, then you'd get a more representative number of passengers to decide capacity, frequency etc when the route gets put in use permanently.
