There's a lot to talk about here - six new names, six new colours. Ko-Fi: ko-fi.com/jago... Patreon: / jagohazzard Just Watching Trains (2nd channel): / @justwatchingtrains-ji4ps Threads: www.threads.ne... Instagram: ...
My objection to the Suffergette Line is that the Women's Social and Political Union had very few supporters in east London. The WSPU campaigned for a wealth qualification for women to vote, which would mean that few of the working class women of east London would qualify. Instead they were sufferagists, who campaigned for votes for all women, not just the middle class.
It is often forgotten that their campaign was supported by much of the Conservative Party (as now, not all Tory MPs agreed on anything) as a counter to the pressure for universal male suffrage backed by the Labour and Liberal parties. Women were perceived as more likely to vote Conservative, as was true through the 20th century, and restricting it to more wealthy women reinforced that.
The Suffragettes planted and exploded several bombs causing injury on the rail network (including bombs that didn't explode at Piccadilly circus and Westbourne park tube stations) and were involved with railway arson attacks plus multiple deliberate acts of vandalism to the railway signal network with the intention of causing danger to passengers. The Suffragettes invented the letter bomb, and one exploded in a carriage mail compartment, injuring the train guard near Preston. While their campaign for change was laudable their methods were perhaps not a cause for commemoration on the railways.
I found it interesting that the marketing release chose to include Fawcett, who of course explicitly and vigorously opposed the Suffragettes, in large part because of the WSPUs taste for fascism - which the East End rather memorably opposed in 1936
Maybe in 10 years when the people at large insist on calling it the goblin in the everyday vernacular - which I don’t think is out of the realm of possibility.
It should be remembered that the Suffragette movement was totally opposed to giving the vote to working class women, who they considered to be too stupid to be trusted with a vote.
I can absolutely guarantee you that the people who came up with the "Suffragette line" name did not know that, and that they only did some cursory research before choosing which line got the name.
With such a major change to the Underground map perhaps there's been a missed opportunity to name one of the lines after Harry Beck! Born in Leyton then I would guess the Goblin would have been the closest to change in his honour. The Beck line does roll of the tongue easily, making it clear and concise and easy to understand.
@@ohpurpled You'd think so. This proves to me that it isn't researched and instead is just an attempt at pandering. Which is disappointing really, it would have been more respectful to the history and communities if it wasn't half-arsed. If anything, if the theme is to remain they should rename it to the suffrage line, Pankhurst line or Huggett Line. (Also not forgetting the suffragettes were upper class eugenics supporting train station bombers) the suffragists were the ones whos movement achieved the vote.
No it's not "just you". I used to think of 1977 every time I got on a Jubilee train. I guess - a name is just a name, so I can't find it in myself to get that exercised about them, but I do agree that lines like the Goblin, which already had some sort of established, if unofficial, identity do appear to have been subtly robbed of a part of their heritage. Anyway a nice summary Jago.
Yes, I do too. But mainly because I have become so much more aware of the history of the Underground through the wonderful work of Jago Hazzard and Geoff Marshall.
I'm just annoyed they didn't make it goblin, they could have made the colour green or grey a popular colour for goblins in fiction so that it would also have an identity in itself (perhaps even a mascot) even if the stations change over time. Yes actually in thought ea h line should have had a colour and mascot that matched the name, and they should have made a big song a dance about it, the beat way to get people to like a name (even a bad one) is to throw a party anyway l.
@@englishciderlover7347You can say the word white. It’s fine. Look, I just did it! White. White. There’s no conspiracy to silence you online for saying the word white. You’re as dim as the people who came up with some of these line names.
And the Mildmay terminating at Stratford is a very similar colour to the DLR ... would have been better to use that blue for any of the Lioness/Harlequin, Suffragette/Goblin, Weaver/Lea Valley or Liberty/🤷🏻♂ lines which don't interface with DLR.
As an old libertian (I went to the royal liberty school) I like the name of the liberty line. My grandmother used to call it the push me pull you, as it has a cab at both ends.
@mikeuk4130 Oh s**t, another old fart who must be as old as me ! I got caned by Jakey. Horrible to think something other than Hell being named after that place of eternal torment !
As a fellow Ol' Boy, I see the RLS never attained its wish to remain ex-grammer. All multiple unit trains have a cab at both ends, even today. The name push-pull predates this. It came from the fact that when the line was steam hauled, the loco used to run round at a passing loop to the north of Emerson Park, so it pushed and pulled. Oh s**t, does that make me as old as your grandmother !
and in the process confuse anyone to whom you must give directions, I suspect. At least those sufficiently non-local that they have need to consult a map in order to follow them.
I was in Rome, everyone directed me to Fumico Airport. Went to the Railway to catch the train to Fumico. No signage to Fumico anywhere. After an anxious half hour or so dragging our cases around the station I finally found someone who spoke English. Fumico was Leonardo De Vinci Airport. Those signs were obvious. Caught the train, caught the plane. Individualism is wonderful, but language is used for communication of information.
Given that derivitives of 'Windy' being used as shorthand/slang for things regarding the West Indies is both a very common thing in English and seemingly the origin of the name in the first place, that's hardly a problem and is likely to stick. 'The Fart' hopefully not so much.
@@Jasper_4444 There actually is a public transport company in switzerland called FART (Ferrovie autolinee regionali ticinesi, Regional Bus and Rail Company of Ticino). So around Locarno you can already ride FART trains and busses
My biggest annoyance is they've not fixed the problem. The Weaver line isn't a line at all, its multiple, hence they were previously called the Lee Valley Line*s* So there's still ambiguity when faults are being reported etc.
The weaver line is basically one line as most of the trains seem to be chingford- lsx- Enfield-lsx-Chingford so a delay on one impacts the overall line
I think they've mostly fixed the problem. It's good enough if you're just naming and not numbering them. They all start at Liverpool Street and go to Enfield Town, Cheshunt or Chingford. It's technically three lines but they partially use the same tracks, so it's good enough when it comes to London. Just look at the tube: The Piccadilly Line goes to either Uxbridge or Heathrow (and either to terminal 4 or 5 there), the Central Line has Ealing Broadway and West Ruislip on one side and Epping and the Hainault Loop on the other side, including the shuttle. The Metropolitan Line has four termini in the west and fast trains, so good luck, and the District Line, well...have fun. If we named all of these, you couldn't keep track of all of them. Oh, and the Northern Line...
They only share 4 stations though, not really comparable to Piccadilly which is mostly the same and only varies the end. Northern line has same problem, should be two different.
@@Whoop0The Northern line can't just be easily split into two if you retain current service. If you just call the routes via Charing Cross and Bank different things you'll end up with both new lines running along both northern branches. If you want to clean it up youd need four, and then you still have the odd Charing Cross train to Morden and whatever goes to Mill Hill East.
It's not. You local ruffians may call it the Goblin, but those of us outside of Laaaaaaaaaaaandan have no idea what the thing is called other than the trains are ALWAYS BLOODY LATE.
What I don’t like about the names is it breaks the pattern of what the underground lines were named after, the majority of them being about the areas they serve or something to do with royalty. I think if they just chose to name the lines how everyone had been calling them for years, there would be much less complaining.
@@MarioFanGamer659 apart from that, the only ones that give an idea of their geography are the Hammersmith and City, and Waterloo and City. Some (eg Piccadilly) are named after one place on the route, but that's not very helpful if you are heading anywhere else. Northern and Central are geographical, but the former goes further south than, and not as far north as, other lines; and most lines serve Central London. Metropolitan goes further from the metropolis than most others; District is meaningless (which district?). People get used to the names and that's all that matters.
@@andrewlong6438 No but the circle line is named that because it is circular, the Bakerloo is a combination of Baker street and Waterloo and the northern line serves north London. I specified both royalty and location served.
If they wanted a line with a football connection, they could have had the Goal Line. To honour all London's politicians, there is the Party Line. As a reminder of the importance of punctuality on the Railway - the Dead Line. We have alreadt head the suggestion of the Leaves on the Line.
Any convention could have been used for naming the different parts of the Overground. Colours, Parts of a shoe, Cloud formations, Numbers, Parts of the body, Famous musicians, Dog Breeds, Defunct british car manufacturers, or even Thomas the Tank Engine characters are just a few things that could have been used. Whatever the names chosen, there will be outrage or debate. The Overground was long in need of some kind of differentation for its various parts. Over time each line will attain its own identity.
The Romford to Upminster line never used to terminate at Upminster, it used to cross the District lines to the London side of Upminster station, then on to the LT&S lines to branch off via Ockendon to terminate at Grays, although some trains would continue to Tilbury.
Even my mum, who used that line to get to school in Grays when it was still a steam train, can't remember a direct Romford - Grays service, and my mum's really old! We always referred to it as the Emerson Park Line.
It has run as a shuttle between Romford and Upminster only since 1956! The through service to Grays ceased when London Underground built a new depot and platforms for the District Line at Upminster, which severed the connection and so now there is no physical access from the branch to the other LTS lines.
Got to have a drive of a Class 302 from Upminster to Grays as an 11 year old back in 1980. My dad was the signalman at Upminster and I used to spend the weekends in the box with him. Got the cab invite one day when handing over the branch token one Saturday.
7:27 For the most part I agree. However, I think the Romford-Upminster Line's colours are too similar to that of the Elizabeth Line, which obviously also stops at Romford. Those who are unfamiliar with the network could easily get confused and think that the Romford-Upminster line is a branch of the Elizabeth Line. Whilst there are plenty of similar colour schemes for lines on the network, I can't think of any other lines like this off the top of my head, that both stop at the same station. Anyway, great video as always
I thought maybe they could have got the public to come up with names, and then vote on them. But then I realised we would have ended up with one line being called "Trainy-MacTrainface".
I saw on another channel yesterday that MTR in Sweden have already called one of their trains Trainy McTrainFace. I travelled on the Interlaken-Montreaux Golden Pass service last year and the trainset I was on rejoiced in the name "Shania Train".
Were the residents ever consulted about these names? Were opinion polls conducted? I can't imagine these names were chosen by the people who live nearby.
So you must be one of the two people who have subscribed to the Elephant Cricket Channel. I understand Pakistan is playing Thailand for the quarter finals today.😊
I had part of the tfl map tattooed onto my foot last July. This change means the tattoo is now fairly well dated between the opening of the Elizabeth line (part of which is included), and this rebranding of the Overground and I am quite happy with that. However, as the Elizabeth line is also represented by thin coloured parallel lines, I wonder if that could look confusingly compatible with these new lines.
Thank you for delivering a well thought out video with background in history of the lines. I personally do feel some of the names are a bit too short-sighted but you made it very interesting to watch.
And our East London Line. Through so many incarnations local residents have always called it the East London Line. The old name will survive I hope. Heritage shouldn't be wiped out by politics. St Petersburg became St Petersburg again.
3:28 That map is back to front. There are no direct trains from Richmond to Clapham Junction - at least, not on the Mildmay Line, and TfL choose to ignore the existence of the other one. (The SW corner of the map only has any lines on it because the key for the map is put there)
10% of us males (and 2% female) are affected. Quite a few. It'll only be another few million wasted by that idiot mayor to revert back to how it was so never mind!
As an outsider, I have zero issue with giving the lines names or proper colours (though I hate the inconsistent use of “line” across TfL generally). But a lot of the names just seem deeply cringey to me - really just trying too hard. Something more straightforward, drawing on existing transport heritage wherever possible, would have lasted much better imho. The lack of orange is pretty weird - is it just going to disappear from the map entirely?
Industry gossip is that the names were decided first and then it was decided which routes they would be shoehorned onto. It's generally felt in the railway industry that this is far from TfL Rail's finest hour.
Just a point of order here Jago(aherm) was some of your footage filmed sometime last summer as the leaf`s on the trees and the... blues skies look out of season. In any case please keep up the good work!
Oh, believe me, I do. But, I'm blaming you for pointlessly pointing out somebody's grammatical error. We all know what they mean. You're not adding to the discussion. You're just being a petty bully.
I chuckled several times during this video. If you haven't, you should do stand-up comedy. Maybe start a comedy channel when you get bored with talking about trains? (Although I can't imagine that's likely to happen) 🤣
as a non londoner, the only one i actually like is the weaver line, all the rest seem to either want to capitalize on some modern trend or event that wont be relevant in a few years like the lioness line, or ruins a perfect original unofficial name like the one that replaced the goblin
So some trendy faceless boffins have had their say, now let the people of London do so before formal adoption. Calling Gospel Oak to Barkng anything but Goblin shows an ignorance and contempt for Londoners. Likewise the East London Line does not need a new name, just formal adoption. However, if they wanted to use a new name then the Brunel Line in memory of his tunnels under the Thames would be a sensible choice. Some of the other names are very political, no-one would call a railway to Grantham the Thatcher Line! Hopefully good sense will prevail before more money is spent. (I am a Londoner who escaped to the coast, still a Londoner at heart).
Will be interesting to see going up the Victoria line as both seven sisters & Walthamstow Central will still have the same line even though from Hackney downs they are 2 completely different routes
I think I don't like the names as they are long names in general because they are long, multi-sylabic names which I can't see many abbreviations. With the underground, I can catch the Met King's Cross for a Vic to Green Park, for a Pic to Heathrow and so forth. I realise names need time to evolve but taking a name like Suffragette or Lioness, it doesn't exactly feel like it lends itself to a nice truncated name
I hate this, what they should’ve been called: Windrush Line-Brunel Line/East London Line Suffragette Line-Goblin Line Liberty Line-Liberty Line/Emerson Line Lionesses Line-Euston Line Mildmay Line-Stratford Line
Thanks for your thoughts on this. One thing you are absolutely right about - the tube map has become very complicated! I think it may take quite a time before the new colours become known - I still feel that keeping them all orange but differing in some other way would have been a better idea.
@@Alto53Except these lines largely travel through areas that weren't yet part of London 200 years ago, but rather empty foelds with the occasional hamlet. So the history is inevitably going to be more recent if you want it vaguely geographically relevant
Richmond to Stratford has always been the Banana line to me and should therefore have been called that and coloured yellow. The travel news thing you mentioned bugged me too.
I really hate the Suffragette line name choice. Emmeline Pankhurst was born in Manchester in Mossside, and the Woman's Social and Political Union was founded in Manchester as well. While they were active in London mainly due to Parliament being based there it's really Manchester History not London's.
“Unqualified thoughts?” My friend you are more qualified in all our minds to speak about anything related to British transport, more than the minister for transportation and the PM himself!
I starting to think they should have had 9 different names for the Overground Lines. Because the lines out of Liverpool Street Station serve 2 Victoria lines stations, but are on 2 different branchs of that Overground line, which means people may still get mixed up and get off at the wrong station. If going to Chingford and changing from the Victorai line. Also the Overground line that is the North London Line, also has 2 branches that connect with 2 branches of the Distrect Line. The confusing with this is more with people getting a Distrect line train to the Richmond branch to change on to the Overground, thinking that Overground trains from the Stations on the Richmond branch also go to Clapham Junction.
I think what the (traditional) media does will have a large part in what happens with these names. If newspapers and radio continue to call it the Goblin line, TFL will probably have to eat crow. For example there is a circumferential roadway around Boston (Massachusetts, USA) which is signposted as Interstate 95 for much of its length. But, pretty much everyone calls it 128 which was the State Route designation from before the Interstate Highway era and still correct for most of the route.
Changing the colours on the tube maps I can understand, to give the lines some distinction on the map, but the new names I'm sceptical of, as for me the existing geographical names of the branches have more usefulness for travellers unfamiliar with the network. Though if there are any issues on the Overground, should be announced as disruption on the Overground (GOBLIN) or Overground (Watford branch) for instance, to give the information as which actual Overground line has the disruption
My objection is that the lines already had names and they should have just used them, instead some politician decided to name them for things that promote their politics and not just use the names people were already using. I hope people vandalize the signage by writing the real names on them.
As you mentioned, the two most important words are usability and wayfinding. Whether traveling every day or for a once-in-a-lifetime vacation, will passengers use these names to describe or search their journeys? It's hard to imagine they will. If we've run out of colors, would names based on destinations or major stopping points have been more useful? Oh well. Marking my calendar for a 2029 user follow-up survey :)
Nah to the new names - can't help but think that they've been devised with current political vanity in mind, and they will show their age very quickly. The Goblin, East London Line, North London Line, The Watford Line are all geographically descriptive and accurate terms with historical background, so why would someone spend the extra dough to go out of their way beyond those names is beyond me, myself and I. Would have personally gone for: Goblin, North London Line, East London Line, Watford Line, Chesford/(Lee) Valley/Enfield Line, Romford Line.
If you live abroad one of the few UK newspapers not behind a pay wall is the Daily Mail so the coverage and comments on this news were entirely predictable. In the end the Overground is now getting some love. Decades late, but eventually
My thoughts on the line names mainly are that they shouldn’t have chosen multiple lines starting with the same letter. This can make it harder for some people to understand any displays - think of people where English is an additional language or those with accessibility issues. Being able to distinguish between the lines at a glance by the first letter will make it easier for those and for those who don’t use the lines regularly. I can also imagine many regular users running to catch a train just wanting to glance at the board not slow down to read to distinguish properly so anything that can make the process easier would be beneficial to many.
I have often thought that the main lines such as overground should have a standard solid fill (orange) with the individual lines designated by the outer lines coloured.
Somebody needs to do a cartoon of Emmaline Pankhurst eliminating a Small Green Person. I can see the name also being shortened to Jet, with quips like "I'm leaving on a Jet Train", "I'm part of the Jet set" etc. Maybe just compromise and call it the Goblinette (or 'Gobette' - maybe not). Anyway, whatever happened to remembering the poor old Suffragists? The NUWSS are often forgotten, chiefly because they didn't undertake Direct Action. The WSPU were not the only game in town, by a long run.
In my not-so-humble opinion, I believe a massive opportunity was missed by not naming four of the lines after the Teletubbies. Imagine how memorable it would be to traverse the Tinky-Winky Line, the Dipsy Line, the La-La Line and the Po Line.😅
Just as The Elizabeth Line has quickly become "The Lizzy", surely these new official names will be subverted into unofficial nicknames, as Jago says. Maybe the Suffragette (hard to say, tricky to spell) will become "The Jet"; Windrush "The Rush"; Liberty "The Libby"; Lioness "The Ness"; and Mildmay, erm, "The Mayday"? And The Weaver? Well, taking "The Weewee" is a London speciality, innit.
Personally, I'll just call them by their original names: Goblin, Watford DC, North London Line, East London Line, Lea Valley Lines and the Emerson Park Shuttle. More memorable and easier for me to understand.
Originally this train network only ran from Richmond to Stratford and was called the Silverlink- which was simply the name of the train company. Personally the most important quality I want from new names of fairly neutral services like train lines is just to sound pleasing to the ear and not use tacky words like 'liberty'. Of the new names only Mildmay rolls off the tounge nicely
Upminster line will always be the either the c2c line or the misery line as far as im concerned.. mostly the misery line as that what's it been called by most people travelling to London on a daily basis since the 80s if not earlier.
And they should do the same to the DLR. At least 3 lines & the one from Greenwich could be called the Maritime Line & the one from Stratford the Olympic Line, not shore about the 3rd one though ?
