I'm looking forward to it too! I'm really hoping that Devise a Stratagem gets just a bit of a boost, though if there are even more exploration bonuses thrown in that would be amazing.
16:34 Raise a Shield /Buckler (or Take Cover (potentially superior) Excellent late turn action. Factor in free actions and Quickened, and we might be talking beyond 3rd action even. But the point stands, after engaging MAP, what to use extra actions for. Shields /Cover are exceptional.
20:23 Assurance Medicine, works excellently with Forensic, As you can guarantee a Known Success vs a chosen DC. Ie. With level 3, and Trained Medicine, you have Assurance 15. Auto pass the DC 15. But at level 5 and Expert Medicine, you autopass DC 20 Assurance. Similarly, lvl 14, and Master Medicine, will autopass DC 30 Assurance. Excellent for Forensic 1hr timeouts.
18:31 Warren Navigator shedding the penalty when missing a compass. Excellent. All too often we rely on the map as players, to guarantee we won't get lost. Love that little benefit. Throw in Trap Finder as an awesome 1-2 combo there. Always searching passively, whether Snese Direction or Avoid Notice is your primary active task at the moment.
I love when players choose to play the Investigator at my table. Most of them have read and fully understand how to play the class. Just as important, it almost always assures me that I’ll get some creative play. It’s a pretty unique class. Listening to you rattle off and casually dismiss the different things you can do when DaS doesn’t work seems pretty telling. Sure, you have situations where sometimes you don’t need to do one of those things, which is why it’s great to be able to move on to the next. I’ve found it pretty rare that my Investigator players don’t have something functional and important to do throughout their turn. If anything I consider the class too action intensive/starved. All those things you mention are the same possibilities I’ve seen players playing other classes often choose to do with their third actions. If that’s boring to you then so be it. But not everyone wants to play a character that does the same set of actions in every combat. I will say if there is a particular knock on the Investigator I think it’s that it can be stretched way too thin from a resource perspective. Between attribute modifiers and some really bad feats, Investigator builds can feel very limiting.
Investigators definitely can do some really great things if their Devise a Stratagem roll isn't going to work out - I think aiding others works out particularly well. But it does force you to always have a backup plan, or plans, and like you said, attribute modifiers can be tough, so having enough good backup plans can also be tough.
I think the lack of enthusiasm for the possibilities of 3rd actions is the MADness inherent in the class, where you can't invest on CHAR on every character concept and Recall Knowledge can feel unrewarding if it's the only thing to do on your turn. I've seen the class in play. While definitely not a useless class, I think that it pays too much in Combat Prowess to have a weaker chassis than the Rogue's, albeit with lots of flavorful investigative feats. The class definitely needs a glow up and lots of buffs for combat prowess. Along with all the other APG classes, it suffers a lot from over-conservative design that the Core class (published first) really didn't have.
20:08 What I... Like... Or Approve, of the balance of Devise a Stratagem vs target 1, becoming the attack roll vs that target in a Strike that turn. As opposed to the house rule I read above. Allowing you to use the DaS roll for the attack roll against the target, if you like it... But ignore the DaS roll for the Strike attack roll, if you do not like it... (and we usually discover AC thresholds fairly quickly, gaining a sense of 'if we dislike the attack roll') That house rule functionally grants Fortune (Advantage) almost always on. Considering that DaS serves dual purpose, and includes your attack roll, against that target, IF you attack it that turn, It already grants you a form of Seeing the Future... Knowing you rolled well or poorly on the Attack roll for the Strike, Allowing you to redirect a failed attack roll, before spending the action, to some other action. That's already great. The house rule, would let me roll twice to hit. In a game with limited access to 'fortune' ...
One of the buffs that I think this class should receive is remove the restriction on Devise a Stratagem to allow all weapons, not just agile, finesse and ranged stuff. The Precision Hunter's Edge already enables its damage with any weapon, I don't see why Investigators need to be restricted as Rogues and Swashbucklers, since Investigators get far less combat-oriented features and class feats compared to the them. Unfortunately, we already know that Investigators' changes will be mostly quality of life stuff, so no chance of some major shake ups. Hopefully, the small scope makes enough of a difference. The Swashbuckler's sneak peak was not as well received as it could've been, despite the Bravado trait (that wasn't expanded upon).
18:58 Is it safe to presume, that well see something like Quick Squeeze, and perhaps Quick climb, as we progress? This should be built for it. I'd also like to see which Medic feats you grabbed to complement Forensics.
7:09 That's Odd. Red Herring. If I can grab those with the Multiclass Archetype Dedication Feats. I'll stick with a functional class, and build an effective detective... And add these two things that work.
I think the Medicine Subclass is perhaps the unique thing about this class. Perhaps the only one. That one thing I would consider if a PC can be viable from this class.
17:08 Forensic Medicine... Might just be the single reason I cna think of, to play an investigator. I think, it's unique, top tier, and not available from the archetype dedication...
11:29 When Devise Strat is going to miss... Throw, smoke bomb or thing that doesn't need to hit... Ball bearings or grease bombs... Or. Use that turn to draw and use a mutagen.
There is a small house-rule you can use (that will be official on PC2) that improves on the Investigator with minimal effort: Make it so the Investigator is not obligated to use their DaS roll on their target (they can choose to roll again). Good for battles with several enemies, even better against bosses.
This is essentially, practically, Granting Fortune Lite, every turn. Allowing you to roll twice for your Attack Roll. Its essentially a Hero Point, every turn, for the DaS attack roll. If you feel the class Sucks enough that it needs a massive boon, like constant Fortune (infinity Hero Point, on 1 per turn Das attack roll) Then, so long as the houserule acknowledges, what it is... Pseudo infinity fortune... Then, fine. It's an optional Variant house rule, and can be voted on in a given table/campaign, to help buff a weak class.
But. Clearly I have feelings about removing the balance of the future sight that Devise a Strat already grants. I don't think the class is the strongest in game, by any means, But. I don't think the solution is taking a mediocre class and making it OP.
But. Clearly I have feelings about removing the balance of the future sight that Devise a Strat already grants. I don't think the class is the strongest in game, by any means, But. I don't think the solution is taking a mediocre class and making it OP.
@@jonathanbennison9220 In most situations you're still spending an action to roll DaS. That's more like having no MAP on your second attack if your first missed. There's nothing OP about it, specially considering the current situation, which is pretty much doing exactly the same thing (Choosing a better roll) against another enemy and the class is very, very, very far from OP. The change I suggested is a minor QoL change at best and a very common house-rule in many tables (or simply people don't realize the prohibitive rule is there in the first place).
1:52 That maxim is not universally applicable. It is appropriate, where the text and examples are not clear. Devise a Stratagem is clear. Clear enough that people changing from dislike, isn't the 'teachers fault'. It's a player choice. I'm a player, and a DM. As a player, I expect myself to learn the game basics, Ie how does trip work, how does grab an edge work, etc, And my character. Ie. How does exploit vulnerability work, or how does my kineticists gate work. Etc. As a DM, I do my best to understand all the mechanics, and I do my best to learn the players. I expect the players, to have a basic understanding and acceptance of the PC they are playing. We don't all have to like the Investigator. But IMHO, after a few sessions and levels, you should know it's core well, amd you should not play it if you don't enjoy it's mechanics.
4:30 When Devise a Stratagem is free... Against a target... It only then approaches up to the competitive abilities of the effective classes. Reducing the action tax occasionally, ... ? Not a huge selling point. In that moment the class sucks a bit less.
Indeed. And since it is still limited to once per turn, even if it is a free action, you only get once chance to add extra damage to a strike in a round.
@@RebelThenKing Right. That said, not every class needs to be equal in melee combat. We might be willing to make a trade out, on raw damage, or turtle defenses, In exchange for something, equally impactful to the game. Just look at the selection and variety of no combat, utility spells, And some of the favorites Like spiderclimb for example. Or charm. Spells that won't directly harm enemies but could have major game impact in a clutch moment, Could unlock alternate game paths... My issue would be that the class, overall, doesn't deliver many unique, benefits of similar calibre to the combat impact it traded away. (the few best benefits of the class can be unlocked with the archetype dedication, so. Better investigators with a rogue or Bard or thaumaturge or ranger.) And +1 RK just, isn't powerful as a trade. And isn't unique. Anyway, I'll be interested to see what Player Core 2 prints.
I feel similar to the Swashbuckler. Don't play one if you don't enjoy the mechanics. Don't play one, and constantly complain about how Panache works. I'd much rather fluff a rogue or thauma or Monk to have Panache flavours swashbuckling like Captain Jack... Or a rogue to be the new Sherlock Holmes. Than deal with the drama over dissatisfied with the class.
I will say, you know I'm not a fan of the class. But. It's not unclear. I just don't think it competes well. I think it has cool flavour but mediocre buffs. Along with a relatively high action tax. But, I don't blame the tool, for the mistakes of people misusing the tool. People playing an investigator wrong, Are just people playing an investigator wrong. At a core mechanix level, it's that simple.
