The Philosophy of Miles Morales and Miguel O'Hara Explained 

if Miles is a spider man it would apply to him though. It's probably the spider bite that makes people follow their pre determined story lines

@@lorenzomizushal3980 I would agree with you there but the anomaly started because that spider wasnt supposed to bite him, so its forcing a destiny and cannon events that otherwise wouldnt happen if he got bit by a spider in his universe (this is atleast my understanding of it)

Actually nope, Miles is still Spiderman at the eyes of the Canon(of his own universe), because his universe didn't collapse and either Earth 42, things just pay out differently for both Miles's, but our Miles is now part of the Canon, let's just assume his universe is pretty ok and adapted himself to Miles's Existence as Spiderman, so, if a Earth recognizes you as Spiderman, you are doomed to suffer the same patterns of the other Spidermans, so nope, Miles is not free of the Canon, he's part of it

​@@aliammar5031The spider is a multidimensional hunter dont ya know

He's already had a cannon event (2 if you count the spider bite) his uncle died

Wow, great insight! Miguel is a brilliant character.

Yeah this is what I think too is the most obvious. He doesn't know what's going to happen, he just knows what HAS happened sucks. "Correlation does not equal causation" kind of thing

That’s… actually… could be true. I mean, it would explain the different spidermen in the first place. However, one would first need to know the canon event to then change it.

Everything in the movie points out that you can only know and change the Canon Events through outside interfering. It happened to Pavitr thanks to Miles, and to Gwen because of her time in the Spider Society. So Miles has a chance of saving his dad, but this pretty much means that every Spider person that doesn't get to know about the multiverse is doomed to live through their tragic Canon Events without a chance of stopping them.

EXACTLY! I HAVE THE SAME THEORY AND I TOTALLY AGREE!

I believe this

Actually I believe the opposite. The meddling can be done as long as someone else is involved. Pavitr's Universe Meddling will work because Miles did the saving. Gwen's Universe Meddling worked because Miguel (unintentionally) put George Stacy on a collision path with Spider Woman's identity, thus putting him on the road to resigning and thus saving himself from certain death. And Jefferson Davis will live. But not because Miles will do the saving. But because it is Gwen Stacy who will do the saving. The first movie is about Faith - Stan Lee (It always fits, eventually), Jefferson Davis (I see this spark in you and it's amazing, I love you Miles), Peter Parker (It's a leap of faith Miles), May Parker (took you long enough). The movie ended on Peter trusting Miles to defeat Kingpin (not bad kid). The second movie expands on Trust - Gwen trusts her dad with her identity, Rio trusts her son to look after himself, Hobie trusts Gwen after leaving the Spider Society, everyone trusts Gwen to join her in the crusade to save Miles. The movie ends with Gwen forming her own band to save Miles. And so, the third movie would be about the thing that's born from Faith and Trust. Co-operation, inter-dependence. But why? Because the point of canon events isn't to cause destruction. It's to cause change. Miles got bit by a spider and changed. The spider's universe changed because of Spiderman's absence. Gwen and George both changed as individuals in response to the painful revelation. Miles changed further to become someone more resilient by not giving in to the pressure and deciding to do his own thing. Miguel, however, escaped to his counterpart's universe. He stagnated. And thus he was forced to change by the laws of the multi-verse itself.

Whoa whoa by 2099 why is Miguel the only superhero? Everybody else died? The mutants? The X men? The avengers? Everyone? :o

@@rizwanzaman1793 The X-Men barely exist in 2099. There are maybe a couple of other heroes, but Miguel is the big deal.

@@mottom2657 so basically everyone retired or dead?

"An Incursion occurs when the boundary between two universes erodes and they collide, destroying one or both entirely."

Then how can the spider society exist if incursions are a thing?

I dunno - the text of the first movie shows that Miguel likely experienced a tragedy caused by the collider from the first movie, but he BELIEVES that it was his fault, that HE was the cause - even though it wasn’t. So, Miguel is basically a conspiracy theorist that assumes motives and intentions that aren’t necessarily there, as opposed to the possibility of coincidence or chance. And the texts of the films bear this out, too.

​@@traktor420That's a good question but I also think its because alot of spider people there are there part time and not all the time like miguel but thage just my headcanon 🤷🏽‍♂️

@@phastinemoon that would be correct if not for the fact that we saw pavitars universe collapsing

Except the train is about to run over one person about miles is trying to change it's direction to run over trillions of people.

@@Prodigal_Knighthe literally says cosmic scale

@@Prodigal_Knightinfinities

No

Wow, great comment. Yeah, from a recent video I watched, it does seem that Miguel's conclusion about why dimensions are falling apart is faulty. There's probably more to it than just Miles. It would be interesting to see how the sequel will resolve these questions.

Both Gwen and Miles directly ask Miguel about how he knows canon events are true in the movie, and for both he doesn’t give an answer. And hell, when Gwen asks him he responds with “wanna find out?” Implying that he isn’t entirely sure about it himself. It’s wrong for Miguel to force so much suffering onto other spider people over a theory he states as fact that even he himself isn’t entirely sure about

@@shagarumedic Him saying "wanna find out?" seems more sarcastic than him implying that he doesn't know/

The idea that people think Miguel is "The only one who's seen universes collapse and everyone else has taken him by his word and just runs with it." fails to really become an argument when we literally see that multiple Spider people were witnessing the destabilization of the universe Miguel tried to insert himself into. Peter B. Parker was even there and confirms it to both the audience and Miles. It should be common knowledge by now that destabilizations of universes HAS been witnessed and IS a threat- a threat that Miguel is not making up, hence the reason why so many spider people have joined the collective. Miguel even mentions that they've tried to restabilize universes that have been disrupted and sometimes they're successful and sometimes they're not. Miguel isn't lying to anyone about the events happening, THEY ARE HAPPENING, why they're happening could be up to debate- but only to the audience because the spider society is only running off of their observed data i.e. An anomaly- something or someone- disrupts the "cannon" event of a spider person's universe and that universe starts to destabilize until the anomaly is taken out. let's even look at the beginning of the movie to lock this example in, when the trio are fighting the Renascence universe' Vulture there are several instances where objects glitched out in the art gallery, as the Vulture makes his way out of the gallery things get worse with even the building glitching out. At the end of the fight sequence Lyla even says something along the lines of "The anomaly is contained, universe is stabilized, the cannon is intact." I don't blame them for thinking the reason for the destabilizations and destruction of universes is because of that. it MAY not be, but they have no alternate data saying that it's not, all their data and experience is telling them that disrupting the events that happen in their lives will destabilize and destroy their universes and instead of trying to test that theory wrong like a bunch of psychopaths and risk countless of lives in the process they decide to play it safe and let things unravel naturally. This has happened so consistently that you can't blame them for coming to the concussion that they have when they have over a year worth of data all pointing to the same conclusion- which is a reflection of real life where statistics and consistent findings will lead scientists, engineers, annalists, and so one to form a single conclusion with the data they've gathered.

It’s clear that Miguel has been doing this for a time with the other spider people. It’s confirmed that he even created the group before he broke a canon event. We saw in a flashback that Peter B Parker was with him trying to stop the collapse. I doubt they would turn Miguel into a villain because he is an established hero; turning him into villain would make a lot of people upset.

Kantianism will WIN

nah, MIles is just selfish. He'd rather damn the multiverse than be told what to do, damn other people than damn his father. Miles is an emotional teenager, irrational and only starting to be his own man.

Well like in fullmetal alchemist the law of equivalent exchange applies everywhere therefore something must be lost for something else to be gained. Miles just needs to let go despite how hard it might be for him

glad another saw the gobby reference in Miguel's set of choices... that sadistic lunatic! also tony stark and fear made Ultron... you sure that won't repeat again in spiderverse? Hope you have a great day & Safe Travels!

@@lorenzomizushal3980imagine wanting to save your dad /s Although imagine being told that you’re so important your life would have to be miserable or the universe gets destroyed. Pretty sure destiny is the bad guy here, not miles

Wow, I didn't even think about the cake analogy. Good observation! But if you remember, both cakes ended up getting messed up in the film...

A privileged position.

lol i'm sorry but NO, cuz that 2nd Miles we met at the end of ASTV is literally EVIL and that dimension's version of the Prowler, remember?? evil Prowler Miles doesn't give a DAMN about good Mile's (Spider-Man) dad, hence when he (Prowler Miles) literally chained up Spidey Miles, mocked him, and said "YOUR dad, not mine" with an uncaring attitude. so this theory of yours is REALLY unlikely to happen bruh 😬🤷🏾‍♂️

Man, this was really informative and insightful. Yeah, as time has passed, Miguel's theories on canon events and the multiverse seem weaker.

I was thinking along those lines too. Keeping Miles in a cage does more harm than good, especially if Miles needs to be present for certain events for the canon event to even happen; Miguel could be indirectly preventing the canon and not know it.

Totally agree!

Literally me

They still can make a well-executed easy choice.

I feel it will lean more in his favor as he is an anomaly but there's always sacrifices of being a hero and Miles will likely learn that, just not in a canon sort of way. It would be better Miles wasn't 100% right since he is pretty op to begin with. It'd make him more grounded. Think about it, not only is he Spiderman, he has Electric, Camouflage, and now he's an "anomaly" (where he has no canon strings attached like every other spidey). Miles needs something to keep him grounded and being 100% right wouldn't help imo. I feel like he will lose whatever it is in a non canon way.

@@RxRoninmiles knows about sacrifices that what i hate todays spiderman stories. They trying to teach a character a lesson that he/she *ALREADY* knows or in another word they keep telling them how their stories is supposed to go they keep telling them “venom is evil” “gwen always gonna die” “in order to get a new hero original hero should die ” “mj is only love interest for peter” to the point we lost the main point of the character the very humanity of the character is lost thats why miles quite is so lmpactfull by “nah amma gonna do my own thing” because he is not just telling this to miguel he also telling to *US* who keep telling the cannon events must happen. its the creators of the film calling modern wrlters to stop not everthing has to be have bad outcomes bad endings

Thanks! Glad you enjoyed the video! Yeah, I don’t view Miguel as evil, he’s just believes that Miles will end up destroying the multiverse so I can see why he was so driven to stop Mile lol.

Thats the only thing im worried about

I completely agree.

Mmm…except Miguel IS incorrect. But, of course - the movie COULD thread the needle and show that there’s no way Miguel could have KNOWN that he was wrong, and that he’s not BAD for being wrong. There’s a way to do it… but Miles really isn’t wrong. He just isn’t. So that “maybe they’ll both see they were right AND wrong” is categorically off the table.

​@@phastinemoonBruv having Miles just not be wrong would be the most boring resolution to the conflict. It could boil down to "le anomaly...le no consequences!" if it isn't handled with nuance. It could waste the magnificent tension already built up

​@stefanoschincoa8410 tbh Miguel being wrong would be the most predictable outcome considering everyone hates him and Hobbie created an army to destroy what he built.

save the many over the few and soon there will be few left; save the few over the many and that will get you there sooner; the best answer is to *make another cake* because there will always be another slice. spider-man was always an under-dog whichever way you write him... he ain't anyone but a nerdy super hero trying to get by both of his lives, sure he ain't perfect... but he still tries. Hope you have a great day & Safe Travels!

Good observation. To Miguel, he says: “Being Spider-Man is a sacrifice”. Which is also an accurate description of our hero.

No Miles in 2 part is fucking garbage

Miles also has no normal arguments- they are even worse than Miguel's

Miguel likely suffered from an incursion, they are created when someone is in the wrong universe for too long and it causes their original universe to collide with the one they are currently in.

​@@thedoglovinggamer5825If incursions are true than how tf is possible that the spider society can be all in 1 Universe

@@tuvergalarga6144i think that wath they are wearing or something like that makes them stable since we see that without that item they start effected by glitches

Miguel's reasoning is pretty sound in general here, but the course of action he's taking here is not any better than Miles' plan even under his own assumptions. He specifically said that the canon event in question took place "during a battle with an archnemesis," and to hold Miles here during the time that battle should take place is just as much, if not more, of a violation of the canon event than Miles going there and trying to "do both." Every other Spiderman who went through that event without knowledge of canon events would have tried to save everyone, and ultimately failed because Spiderman can't be everywhere at once to save everyone and stop their archnemesis at the same time. Noone told Pavitr that he needed to let Inspector Singh die, at least as far as I could tell, but it would've happened without outside intervention anyway because under Miguel's theory that's just how the canon should play out. The same logic should apply to Miles, who should be allowed to play his role in his own story, and without any other spider people there to intervene, it would likely play out the same way. Instead, Miguel opts to pull Miles out of his own canon story, and completely disregards any consequences that may have on that universe's canon.

@@bluescience9022he corpse of 42’s spider has been in spot’s lab for over a year though and no incursion happened

isn't that how spider man stories go? great power great responsibilities, and great sacrifices and all that

I completely agree with you. I hope the sequel shows that Miguel is right in some regard--that Miles' actions have consequences. I think it would diminish Miles' character and the Spider-Man identity, if he was able to have his cake and eat it too. For the sequel, I have a prediction that Miles will be able to save his father, but his mom, Rio, will be the one that dies.

Spider-Man stories always try to make it look essential that their needs to be sacrifice. But Spider-Verse is twisting these tropes, so this is a case where it does work because of the material it’s pulling it from.

@@Ranni could his roommate (Ganke) die instead?

I have to disagree because it’s just like spider man said in edge of time if you know someone life is in danger and you sit there can do nothing then you don’t know the first thing about being spider man and that’s it’s what miles is doing and miguel is still doesn’t agree

@@doctorx2307 so what do you do after you get up, stop them from getting killed, and then your universe, including them, is destroyed anyways?

@@doctorx2307 I mean the issue is that if miguel is right, you will only delay Mr Morales's deah and cause Mrs Morales, Ganke, and many other innumerable people to die too.

@@doctorx2307ı understand both sides ı agree with miles since because of a limited data tell me your father needs to die ı would do the same thing as miles but in other hand ı agree with miguel since we know something cause universe to collapse we dont know why but it happens and we cant really test the theory because well we are not lunatics and since we dont know what gonna happen if a anomaly like miles succed so playing safe is best way this more like a luck game for the both sides both could be wrong or right

@@doctorx2307what about in insomniac where Peter chooses to save everyone instead of aunt May?

This is what I predict too! I don’t think Jeff will die, but instead Rio. People bring up the cake scenario, but in that scene you are right! Both cakes ended up being messed up.

Well put comment and succinct as well but one correction-unless I’m wrong and feel free to correct me 😅-but 1610 Peter Parker is alive and with the Ultimate Universe coming back he very well might see him again unless he’s still vacationing with MJ who knows where.

Miguel did try to talk it out first but miles didn't listen. If the scales where as big as they are I would act the same as Miguel did.

​@@keondesouza9010I don't know if they'll bring peter back in the ultimate invasion book or whatever it's called, but the 1610 peter does technically come back through a clone (one that actually looked like him) and then left NY with either Gwen or MJ.

I think a heroes death is noble & good but not very well received to essentially martyr a 15 year old black kid for a cops life (even if its his dad ) 🤐

@@austincde Sorry since you obviously weren't replying to me, but I think that if anyone did have an issue with a hero sacrificing themselves to save someone, simply because that hero is a minority and that "someone" is a cop, then it's their problem. Just to be clear, this isn't directed at you and I'm not trying to change how that hypothetical person feels.

That's right.

Yeah! That would be epic!

True. But I do feel that since Miles is an anomaly the rules don't apply to him normally compared to the other Spider-Men.

@@Ranni but didn’t that rule kinda apply to him tho? m.ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-SKJ1fiWfuMI.html

I agree, that confuses me too! He saw his uncle die and on top of that he saw his universe spiderman die 😭 its already too much for him

Thank you! Glad you enjoyed it!

Thank you! Expect more!

@@Ranni you’re welcome

Thank you! Expect more philosophy/analysis videos in the future!

Thanks man! Appreciate it!

2 deaths, only spiderman in his universe, taking responsibility. I don't see anything wrong with Miles' universe.

@@ChrisParayno I... don't understand what you're trying to say here.

Thank you!

Thank you so much 😀!

Man, I've forgotten about that.

Yeah, I'm not an avid comic book reader, but I have heard of Miles being pretty boring. It was was really Spider-Verse that brought new life to the character and made him distinct from Peter Parker. I see your point that the mantle of Spider-Man is so intrinsically linked to Peter that any deviation from Peter's story is seen as disrespecting the mask. But when it comes to the canon events, I think it's less to do with specificity of how things pan out, but the event as a whole. Spider-Man will suffer and its part of his story. It may look different depending on the Spider-Man you're looking at but they all suffer to an extent. You may be right in that Miles will be written as completely in the right in the next movie, but I hope that's not the case. I hope the movie shows that suffering and loss is a part of life and its part of what makes someone a hero.

Yes, I've heard of the "Web of Life and Destiny" before. I'm not too familiar with it, but I think it was explored in the 90s animated show and the game Shattered Dimensions. But I agree, Spider-Man is a fundamental pillar of any Marvel-related world. According to Miguel's understanding, being Spider-Man in their version of the multiverse requires him to go through certain events. Otherwise, Spider-Man is undefined and ceases to exist. Ceases to be the pillar that holds the universe together.

Because Miles try to destroy one's own universe

but isn't your solution just a variation of miles's plan? if Miles had more people siding with him earlier, he WOULD have accepted help, but no one did until the end of the movie when the spider-people slowly started doubting Miguel's side Miles never said he would do it and it HAD to be alone, nor he would've tried to just recklessly save his father and f*ck the multiverse, he simply wanted to try to do both and to find a way to do so. He even tried to have anyone backing him up during the argument ("spider-man ALWAYS-" / "what about your dad? isn't he a captain?") but then he realized not even those who he thought would support him sided with him ("not always..." / "yeah..."). The spider-society SHOULD be trying to help him do both in any way they could, specially since most spider-man are intelligent people. This would allign more with "trying to help both ships through communication" idea, but in this situation, the people on the ship simply doesn't want you to even TRY to help both. Your solution is exactly what Miles wants to do, instead of pulling the lever to one side or another like Miguel or instead of, let's say, "run and try to warn the workers, before realizing it's too late and it was an irrational solution" like you suggest he would, he wants to do the equivalent of "baking 2 cakes", which is finding a solution to save both the multiverse and his father, he doesn't want to "return with two messed up cakes" again (losing both in the process)

@mrkyurem5499 Close, but no. Gwen was the one who assembled a band to try to help Miles and go against Miguel. Miles himself was never asking for them to help him save his dad per say. He was asking why they would each be OK with sacrificing someone THEY cared about if they knew that same someone was going to die. None of them like the idea but came to terms with it under Miguel's plan of maintaining the status Quo. They don't genuinely KNOW if what happened to Miguel will happen every time. (The laws of physics wouldn't allow it to happen that exact same way every time anyway, but none of them thought of that). Then when nobody seemed to side with him he took off to do it alone. Key: alone. He thrust himself right into the idea of trying to save both ships while taking all of it on himself, and thus, both ships would sink. There's no way he can take Spot alone, but he's stupid enough to try anyway perhaps even knowing it could lead to his death. Miles is still under the misguided and dangerous notion that heroes always win, good always triumphs, a super hero will always save the day. Life doesn't work that way no matter how much we wish otherwise. Gwen is the one implementing my plan. She sought the others to go help Miles. They are all going to go fight Spot alongside Miles to really see if they can save both ships. However, I wouldn't bet on all of them surviving. Someone is going to die in the next movie. That much is clear. Otherwise, this whole buildup means nothing because the message turns to "Everything will be fine. Good always wins! Kumbayah!" Recall how the original Peter Parker from Miles" universe seemed very happy with his life as Spiderman despite everything. Compare that to Miles who was struggling and feeling completely alone since he couldn't actually open up with anyone except the Spider people he had met a year prior but were gone. He later finds out they had every chance to go see him but didn't and thus he sought to go back to his world by himself. But now things get interesting... he encounters the embodiment of what that line of thinking leads to: Prowler Miles. Yeah that Miles has his uncle but at the cost of his father and clearly that Miles lives with a very broken outlook. Due to what? Loss. Failure. Isolation. Unwilling to help even another version of himself. Think about how twisted one has to be to reach that point but think how not unlike Miles that sounds given what he did to get to that universe. Miguel meanwhile still needs his outlook truly tested and realize his mistaken outlook would also sacrifice countless lives to save countless others. Maintaining a status quo eternally is also something that cannot be done indefinitely.

@@Kamina.D.Fierce You have great arguments, i'll give you that (not joking) But in my pov, the argument scene when he tries to reason with everyone by showing how being okay with countless deaths (just to maintain a status quo that they don't even know is true) sounds ridiculous also serves as a confirmation that no one wants to help him Literally no other spider-person, not even his friends, had the balls to even argue agaisnt Miguel's ideas. The notion of Miguel being wrong only clicked when they saw Miguel literally hurting Miles to force him to let his father die, pretty much invalidating his identity as spider-man AND sending Gwen back home (which for her character at that moment in the story could be considered cruel) because she DARED to try to de-escalate the situation (by talking to Miles like a human being) and just ASKED him if he is sure of everything he says. That is the only reason Gwen was able to form the band: Miles dared to go agaisnt Miguel first and managed to escape (also Gwen's own banishment contributes to it). Miles has no way of getting help from anyone. He didn't want to carry the whole world on his shoulders, but in the end he HAS to or else no one is going to save his father for him or even want him to do so himself. He is so desperate for help that he begs Prowler Miles to let him go, but not even himself seems to want to help him. If he hadn't reminded them of the idea that spider-man shouldn't let people die just for the sake of it that Gwen was able to form the band, otherwise they would, if Miles actually believed Miguel, just go on with their original plan of stopping Spot but not interfering in Miles's canon. I think Miles isn't acting irrationally, even if on paper it sounds like he is. He is desperate and alone, but he wants to stay true to what means being an Spider-Man: he's going to try to save everyone or die trying. Does it mean that by going alone, like he would if Gwen's band weren't to be formed, he would be able to save both? Of course not, that is exactly what all spider-man try before losing the police captain, and i think knowing about it beforehand wouldn't help as much (really, trying to convince his father not to go out on the streets during a situation where the entire city is at risk wouldn't work), and if he were somehow able to save his father, he wouldn't be able to stop Spot on his own anyways (actually, just as a side note, does Miles realize that him trying to break canon or not, the spider-society is going to try to stop Spot anyways? I think so, since that's what he saw in his vision of the future) and could even die trying, but that's still staying true to spider-man's self-sacrifice in some way. So, yeah, you're right about Miguel: by trying to stop Miles from breaking canon, he would be breaking it anyways by not letting him actually be there (since he supposedly has to be fighting spot and learn a lesson from his police captain's death, which would be "you can't save everyone", to fulfill canon). He is putting Miles's universe at risk anyways by trying to save it. Your solution, which you say is Gwen's solution at the end, is simply impossible for Miles by that point. So even if this idea works on paper, it only works if everyone else agrees to it: in your ship example, it only works if the ship that kidnapped you agreed to trying to help both instead of selfishly forcing you to only save their ship (in Miles's case, that ship is the multiverse and the kidnappers are the spider-society, they want to force him not to help his father, aka the second ship)

I take that as a compliment haha!

@@Ranni definitely should. Shiii crazy

Finally normal health person

Well, yes Miles has already had his "Uncle Ben" moment, but there are other parts of his story that need to happen, which according to Miguel is the death of his dad.

@@Ranniwell technically he said the police Captain dying is a cannon event.

​@@kingmack6326ohh, thats right! Maybe the previous police capt is just old and will die of natural causes 😂

I guess we will have to wait and see in the sequel.

I don’t think that’s the case. I’m pretty sure they’re the same Miguel except they redesigned for the sequel. Would be crazy if you turn out to be right though lol.

@@Ranni I mean every other character has the same voice except for alt Miles and Miguel. Just seems like a weird choice when they showed Miguel in the end of into the spiderverse. Maybe I’m thinking way too much about it, but hey it would mean both Miles and Miguel are anomalies…

I always felt that when Miguel went to another universe he was messing up his OWN canon as opposed to his variant’s.

I guess there are multiple canons for each Spider-Man.

LMAO

You mean Miles will help Prowler Miles?