The pitfalls of global group lyricism 

Honestly I am generally getting tired of these "look at us, we are so great" "we are on top" "nobody can stop us" songs. Especially early on or as debute songs saying you are the best, watch out, back of haters comes of so juvenile to me. These flexing songs in general are getting boring especially when you dont have the experience or sucess to back it up. Like how can you sing about stuff like being on top, making it and besting haters when you are fresh in the industry for 5 seconds

I think another point in the discussion is how these "back off" haters type of tracks are given as... debut tracks. A group is barely out in the world, and they're already calling for their hypothetical haters to not mess with them; it adds A LOT to the cringe, english lyrics or not.

I feel like this is why the English version of Cupid got so viral. Besides how addicting the voices and melodies are, they actually put effort into the English version instead of making it a direct carbon copy of the literal translation of the Korean version. Like the English lyrics are clever and also sound natural with the melody even tho it’s different lyrics than the Korean. They even took out the Kpop rap that is typical in Kpop songs but not western pop songs.

I feel like the lyricism is holding them back. It makes them feel immature. I hope they get some really good writers in the future. Wishing them the best. And considering they can all speak English I trust the girls to deliver some more complex lyrics and deeper meanings. Just the power of one incredibly done metaphor in a fun song can never be underestimated.

lyricism is huge in western pop rn, from taylor to lana to chappell to olivia to billie- all of those people have other factors going for them, in production or vocals but they do write all their lyrics. it's why i think kpop will have a hard time expanding to the west through english releases- i love kpop but it's not really the "authentic/self-produced" image that the average western popstar has right now. it's strength has always been in production, vocals, and visuals- not writing, which is what western pop is focusing on. it might make them stand out, but it also might sink them edit: apparently i need to clarify that not every western artist is hugely involved in their writing, not every kpop idol is not. the point i'm making is how they emphasize their writing by presenting an "authentic" image(think taylor swift and her diaristic songwriting), which kpop doesn't do as much. that doesn't mean a facade of authenticity makes a song better, just that its what western audiences gravitate to

“I dont need no one two three or bourgeoisie” what😦

lisa can you teach me japanese i said hai hai… like… welcome back shakespeare!

Here's the solution: hire writers that work well with women and girl group Victoria Monet Kamille Anija MNEK Jade Thirlwall Max Martin Tommy Brown Finneas The Dream & HIT BOY hire em and watch the difference

at this point the companies behind these groups have to be blissfully ignorant. every thing you highlighted in this video has been a complaint of not only kpop fans, but music fans in general. there has been a shift where people desire more than surface level lyricism and production, so it shouldn’t be a surprise that songs that are the opposite aren’t being received well. there are off instances, but even in those cases there is some redeeming quality that makes it understandable why it did well. you can’t market to an industry that is currently not favorable towards girl groups with something people don’t want and expect it to be successful… it feels like setting the girls up for failure when simple market research and creativity could prevent that

It’s so weird to come out with a song about flexing on haters as a new group. It feels like a) you’re starting your career by engaging with meaningless hate comments and b) you’re making it more difficult for the general public to relate to you. I can relate to a song about loving my girlfriends but I can’t relate to a song about proving the haters wrong because I’m a normal person and I don’t have haters. If this first era is supposed to be about introducing the girls to the public and creating a parasocial bond (for better or for worse) this song topic just doesn’t do it. Also in the west I feel like we’re so over music just referencing money nonstop. It’s not relatable for the vast majority of listeners and quite frankly it’s boring. I feel like you make a great point about K-pop being behind in that. They still think Americans like to listen to music about how much money the artist makes and we really couldn’t care less because most of us are struggling to make ends meet as it is.

Kpop companies have no idea what the west is looking for point blank period. All these “global” groups fall flat bc who exactly is the audience when the talent is there but lyrics, styling, and mvs are all cheap and terrible.

i think western music fan's are often drawn to the authenticity of the artists they listen to. to me, that's typically why we see more individual artists rise to fame (people like sabrina carpenter, chappell roan, olivia rodrigo, etc.) rather than groups. many western artists are hated for not writing their own lyrics, it's entirely something that's expected of an artist who wants to become successful here. because these new global groups factor that out and take the more kpop-centric approach to music creation (their companies being in charge of the concept & lyrics), their songs are entirely vague, and the few lyrics that do attempt to describe the songs meaning are tarnished by the cringy lyrics that would be excusable in a kpop song, but not in a song primarily sung by english speakers. i really hope that both vcha and katseye (or rather jyp & hybe) are able to work with writers located in the united states, especially considering that both groups are located here.

When I first saw the MV of Debut, I was anticipating a Maybelline logo to appear somewhere in the chorus. It looks and sounds exactly like it was approved by a board of boomer directors to market an old brand to the new generation. It’s the kind of song/video that would play on repeat in a makeup store.

I was expecting a more experimental sound for Katseye, like imagine if they embrace international friendship, women around the world united, showing their culture’s diversity, talking about how differences don’t matter cause we are one or something that actually represents a global girl group and not just pretty girls with sassy english lyrics

Vcha works. As long as jyp focuses on truly being global and not just focusing on America they can find great success. Given the response from twice fans during ready to be, it seems they do have an audience. The only problem i see is jyp not knowing how to premote them and just keeping them in a vault between appearances.

When I heard the song I literally printed out the lyrics so I could annotate them like I was back in high school English just to see if i just wasn't understanding them. But they're really incoherent when you go line by line. Actually pay attention to the lyrics? What is this song about? What does "No this ain't a debut" mean. Genuinely. Is it just a statement? "This isn't a debut." Okay? Then why is so much emphasis put on it as a powerful line? Is it meant to imply we're so cool this isn't even a debut? But what does that mean? The best interpretation I could come up with is "we're so cool and you ain't seen nothing yet" but the rest of the song doesn't really match that. The verses seem to imply "we're already so cool" so these messages aren't compatible. And the final line being "Love me once I know you'll love me twice, love me once it's time to roll the dice?" I understand the first half, but what are they trying to say in terms of rolling the dice? Rolling the dice on what? Their success??? But wasn't this whole song saying "we're so cool and we're going to be successful" The lyrics just make no sense. I was really disappointed with this song. I'm hoping their august mini album is better crafted because these girls deserve so much better.

I feel like lyricism is dying in kpop in general. I'm bored of love songs (magnetic) or a self-impowerment/flexing (rockstar) type song. they can both be good if the meanings were deep and felt like genuine emotions that the artists wanted to share, but it really doesnt.

"I don't need no 1, 2, 3 No bourgeoisie I'll step in" what. does. that. mean.

kateye's debut lyrics is perfect in line with how this songwriter writes as I have watched one of his lessons: create a few catchy phrases then try to connect meaning betweeen them. Opposite as some create : theme, advanced wordplay / rhymes that contribute to the theme, hook / chorus, then story telling verse.

Even Taylor swift, considered one of the best songwriter of current pop had criticism in her latest album. That should tell how much the west values lyricism

The always be talking about "I'M BREAKING THE RULES" or "I'MMA GO MY OWN WAY", girl you can't even eat a donut unsupervised

honestly, i was really surprised when vcha debuted and people seemed to insist that they were targeted at the general US market--i.e. the same people who listen to artists such a sabrina carpenter, fifth harmony, or even megan thee stallion. my impression was always that vcha and katseye were targeted at international, english speaking kpop fans, who wanted to see idols who looked like them, and spoke the same language, trained under the kpop system. it seems that i was wrong, but honestly i think that's where these companies need to pivot for success, because like you said, there's not much of an *interest* for idol groups in the mainstream US audience right now. the majority of these girls' fans are kpop fans, and usually company stans at that. if they focused on marketing to and appealing to intl kpop fans, while also adjusting their lyricism and concept, i think they'd be much better off debut's lyricism confused me as well. at some point of listening to the song, i pulled up the lyrics to see if i was hearing it right ... lyric analysis is one of my hobbies and i really love thinking deeply about it but i was super disappointed by debut. i could excuse the vague girl empowerment concept if the lyrics were good, creative, and specific, but they aren't, and so it falls flat in both categories to me. i hope katseye's actual debut is better and more focused! regarding vcha, i was a little confused on their debut's concept, as i was hoping it'd be something more concrete than "we're idols now!" but after it i saw the potential, especially if it turned into something like what you were hoping to see with lucky girl syndrome- a manifestation concept, something about personal will bringing your dreams into reality. they did end up pivoting with only one though, which i don't think was a bad idea considering xo call me was so well received as a b-side of their debut... it's been a while since vcha has done anything so i hope they can really lock in with their next release

Spot on video. Will add that Korean lyrics also hold back kpop from being more popular globally. Korean is a flowery and poetic language and is sometimes cringey when translated. As for English lyrics, it sometimes feels like cosplaying what it means to be a Westerner. The trend of using English expletives is a prime example. Simply including “f*ck” in your song doesn’t make you cool or edgy or hip - How many title tracks include Korean expletives like 시발? Bueller …. Bueller? And I’m frankly tired of lyrics bragging about one’s wealth or social status or being on top or selling out tours or topping charts or hitting back at haters or being girl bosses - by now, it’s trite and pedestrian

Not only is the lyricsm a big issue but the lack of authenticity is in my mind. I feel like more western listeners like western artists for their authenticity or their style which is something they lack. I don't think Hybe knows how to not be so controlling when it comes to their artist as they are at their roots a kpop company

overall, the song lacks artistry, creativeness which makes the song seem like when a kpop group comes out w an english single to make a lazy attempt at the west or when the company just goes “damn, here you go” to add to discography. which is a whole other problem in k-pop that nobody talks abt, honestly wishing the best for them ive been there since the members were announced but if hybe wants to make waves here they need to know what people actually are listening to instead of making them release stock music

It just gives kidz bop and I’m so over it.

I feel like the biggest problem with these groups is how unclear the audience is. KATSEYE and VCHA are essentially just kpop formula, but in english. But when you look at the top kpop groups... it's not like they don't speak English. In a way, groups like newjeans, blackpink and kiss of life already do the thing that is supposed to make global groups unique. So if their competition essentially is kpop, they need to be able to stand on their own in the tough kpop competition. And in terms of concept... right now VCHA seems like a watered down TWICE, while KATSEYE is watered down LESSERAFIM. And I mean, that *could* work. If KATSEYE keep releasing radio friendly girl crush songs, they could go a similiar path as blackpink (if they're really lucky). VCHA would need a CUPID tho. The other route would be to distingguish themselves from kpop. Essentially, everything you talked about in your video. I also think the fact that they don't write themselves makes it harder, considering the negative connotation groups in the west have of being "produced". I think XG went through all these stages. With Mascara and Tippy Toes, it was cool songs, but could've been any other girl crush kpop group. Then, with shooting star, they really made their own identity and brought something unique to the kpop formula. And now with woke up, they released something kpop can't compete with

There was only one English version I can listen to without completely cringing. And that was Cry For Me by Twice. Which sucked because the song was stuck on Alcohol Free as a CD exclusive for a couple years until the Remixes released. Katseye in comparison to VCHA also have another problem when it comes to their lyrics. Vcha seems very youth focused in their demographics. While this doesn’t mean they can’t drop the next Shakespeare in upcoming releases, it’s definitely easier for them to skew the line of cringier lyrics because “target audience” or smth. Katseye on the other hand, have a lot older of a sound / Concept. Which on some fronts makes the cringy lyrics more of a concern. It’s the mentality of “if you’re a grown up, act like it.” I wish the best to Vcha and Katseye (I pray Katseye/Hybe America frees themselves of Scooter Braun 🙏), maybe in the future they will get to write some Shakespeare for us. -I pray they secretly have a Dahyun or Chaeyoung among them.-

I think Rockstar is another example of how English lyrics get way more scrutiny from Kpop stans. There's definitely a Blackpink effect there but I was so surprised at how worked up people were over the lyrics of a hyperpop-esque song. And on the topic of hyperpop, I think Charli xcx is a counterpoint to the recent emphasis on lyricism. I think there are ways to build a popstar persona without being a singer-songwriter. But the visual and sonic storytelling has to be there.

been with Nizi Project and NiziU debut, also with A2K and Vcha, the reception of Glocalized groups always depends on the general public, NiziU is now a big group in Japan, while Vcha was with Twice as an open act, and is going to lollapalooza hoping for a high trajectory on their popularity, especially teen crush/ disneyisque are cringy on the get go, as a prejudice, hoping for the best. while we argue for lyrics with english speakers, we have XG that has Japanese members but is crushing the english lyrics, there is no set in stone criteria, star power sky rockets you on all fronts, so lyrics and cohesion is a pressure for native speakers, I'm just excited for more of this. breakdowns

vcha's actual debut and comeback with only one was soo cute i tear up because it really resonates with me bc im getting married soon. LOL i was quite impressed and im pretty harsh on english releases LOL

it would have been perfect to mention XG and how theyre uniquely establishing themselves in the global market. Theyre not very loud in a way, but bet theyre gonna make it really big someday.

Btw the girls themselves clarified it IS their debut single.

Yeah I just don’t get who the audience for this group is. I don’t see them appealing to K-pop fans and I don’t see them appealing to western audiences… yes there’s still the rest of the world but I don’t see them appealing to Latino pop listeners or anyone else for that matter 😭

Not on the topic of lyricism but one thing that annoys me about the global groups is the lack of a concept. I know katseye hasn't even debut yet and VCHA hasn't really had a first mini album. But what got me excited was to see anyone of any background get to be in a concept that only really happens in kpop, aswell as musically. For example Red Velvet has an overall spooky vibe and then uses this in each comeback in a different way, we got Chill Kill with more apparent creepy visuals and storyline of killing someone, and then we got Cosmic, a midsommar aesthetic with that creepy undertone. Every group has their overall vibe and then each comeback can basically do any concept they want, instead these global groups concept is just "were a global girl group you cant hurt us". Like give us something new and unique, your not gonna make a mark in the western or asian industry with that?

I think the major problem is having no female lyricists or limited female producers working with GIRL groups. No offence but a man can never fully understand the intricacies and nuances of girl & womanhood especially from the point of view of a woman. So men writing songs for girls & women will always be plagued with superficial lyrics because they are only writing how they perceive girls and women not writing out of lived experience. That’s why the songs sound like something a 40yr old man thinks a young girl or young woman might say rather than what they might actually say. Hollywood has the same problem, writing girls & women in a weird “I’m hot, you’re a hater cause you’re not” type of way, that’s why Olivia & Billie are such a breath of fresh air because they delve into actual girl & womanhood issues form their experiences. Even though they write with men, their voices/experiences are the loudest in the lyricism.

Kaachi walked so these girls could RUN!

What's unfortunate here is that I know KATSEYE girlies have talent, but HYBE x Geffen are just holding them back with a weak first official song which doesn't highlight any of these girls' vocal strengths at all, it's all just visual talk and talk singing. Let's hope there's a turn around at some point with the creativity and vocal direction.... Another thing about KATSEYE'S music vision that we're getting so far, is that it's getting to somewhat of a type of western appeal, BUT it's lacking in artistry and depth which is a very important detail in order to create music that appeals to the west. (Think, Pink Pantheress, or Sabrina Carpenter, or Ariana Grande. These girlies can sing, BUT they're also putting out an image or conceptual vision of themselves which make them more memorable to the public. All KATSEYE has been given so far is cute y2k outfits, kick ass choreo and basic tiktok-style cookie cutter baddie-type lyrics. They had potential with the branding before which was mystical, enchanting, futuristic and kind of "witch-like" but their song "Debut" doesn't align or melt together with it at all.)

i do wonder how xg's discography fits into this discussion since almost ALL of their songs are in english and about empowerment, and yet they seem to be very good at attarcting a global audience

I think XG is a group that does english lyricism well. Although, I haven’t properly dissect/analysis their music on a deep level, so I may be fundamentally wrong 😅

This is a great opportunity for their team to get the girls in the writing room. Vcha and Katseye are both around the age of the demographic they’re trying to reach, so let them write! Plus, it could give them some legitimacy as contributors to their music.

they just need to be 20+

I agree, mostly. The #GirlPowerAnthem concept has become largely outdated in the West even longer than girl crush has in K-POP. Similarly with the "flexin on the haters" types of songs as well. I'm not necessarily saying that these kinds of songs cannot be done right, but it requires a certain finesse to make those songs decent, and K-POP almost never does it right and to be honest, I have the same criticism for some of the songs by Fifth Harmony and Little Mix as well. Just lyrics that you can tell were written by a board room of old men, and songs that sound like you'd only hear them in a Claire's. Speaking of western girl groups, I think they are taking too much inspiration from the ghosts of global girl group' past. We may be in a nostalgic era at the moment, but they aren't taking inspiration from the catchy hooks and melodies of the 2000s period, just the obnoxious parts instead. "Debut" kind of sounds like a lesser, more childish version of "Don't Cha" by PCD. That being said, I don't think super high quality or deep-meaningful lyricism is necessary for Katseye's success. Not saying it wouldn't benefit them (Debut's lyrics are pretty nonsensical) but I don't think having more average or just good but not deep lyrics would hurt them. What I feel they need the most are better melodies. Debut was way too one-note and the talk-singing also ruins it further, it doesn't have replay value at all. Compare this song to other songs that are popular amongst both the Western GP and what demographic I believe they are aiming for like "Birds of a Feather", "Espresso/Feather/Nonsense", "Good Luck, Babe!" what they all have in common are sweet, easy-listening melodies and catchy hooks, elevated by good lyricism as well. Debut just sounds like a 5h reject from 2012. I'm seriously rooting for this group because I do think they have potential to be successful, however their team has to play it smart. There is no market for a girl group in the west, you have to focus first and foremost on the quality of the music, otherwise they will go nowhere.

I think a good example is xg, their lyrics are top tier without loosing that kpop-esque touch, like concepts and empowerment (ik theyre japanese, theyre marketed as a global group)

I love VCHA, so i may be biased, but i think they are slightly different than Katseye here because vcha seems to target a younger demographic with their music. Only One definitely has a youthful charm to it, and the same can be said for their previous releases (I think preteens and early teens personally). Katseye seems to be targeted toward older teens and young adults imo. The dance and outfits really give that away if the lyrics and sound of the music didnt. But just going based on cringy lyrics, songs for a younger demographic arent held to as high of standards as songs that are meant for a more mature audience, resulting in the former receiving much less criticism and the latter receiving more. Whether you think that should be the case or not, this is just what ive observed personally. I'm in my 20s but music from groups like VCHA are still definitely more of my vibe than the mature and "aggressively" empowering songs that groups like Katseye and, as a larger example, Blackpink put out. While I do appreciate mature songs/themes in music, I wouldnt say Katseye fits the mature type of empowerment that they were maybe going for because, unfortunately, they have an almost childish approach to it.

It kind of reminds me of old-school groups with writers like Max Martin. I do wonder why we used to be okay with nonsensical lyrics, but not as much anymore. I wonder why I’m disappointed by the lyrics in Debut and XG’s Woke Up, but I was never bothered by I Want It That Way.

I think these groups should take inspirstion from FLO. They're songs are well written and they can pull of the empowering elements without being cringey.

If they stopped debuting young girls then they'd probably finally escape these cringy lyrics oh gosh

A pop song doesn't have to be deep, but it does need to be a little witty. These days with the biggest pop girlies there is sense ot humour to them, like Sabrina carpenter her lyrics are often dumb, but they're dumb in a way that is fun and cheeky and full of personality. I feel like thats the current trend we are seeing, a little relatable, a little tounge in cheek, embracing pop aesthetic without fully buying into them.

Tbh im kinda tired of these messages in all the freaking kpop groups i mean atleast most of them.. looks at XG they do it in English so good but damn the meaning is same like dont mess with me kinda. Blackpink has most of their songs like im the best. Its so so tiring that nowadays we cant find a song that truly suits what we feel. Kpop is now all about looks and dance and dresses...its boring now. Kiss of life's current somg "sticky" is mediocre too...but the dance is very different from other kpop groups.

would you say that some these points also extend to XG? you perfectly articulate how i imagine what people who have issues with XG's lyricism think whenever they complain abt XG's lyric and was wondering how you feel abt that

I'm happy you made this video, because honestly I want the best for the group, but a 2 minute song with outdated lyrics after 7 months of not hearing from them isn't super promising. Like don't get me wrong the song isn't bad, it's really catchy, but it just suffers from being to short to tell anything really worth listening to 😅. Also I don't think it would be so hard to give Sofia actual lines, this might not be their debut, but it is the first song the general public will recognise them for, so I think it is quite a big deal in this case ( I know she's the one mainly singing her chorus parts in their live practice, but it doesn't sound like that in the actual song and I don't like that). Overall I think the girls can still have a bright future ahead of them, if the companies play their cards right, but I have severe trust issues in that regard 😞.

I knew I loved your channel for many reasons, but seeing you fund raise for Gaza made me love you even more!

Kg has written and produced songs already before debuting in Vcha and we saw Camila perform an own self written rap on A2K. those two can def write songs, just hoping Jyp lets them.

imo, i feel like the only one being held back is katseye >< to me, vcha’s concept is inherently… childish? they’re in JYP and their mvs are very bright, for that reason, i don’t think that their lyrics hold them back at all! their slightly corny lyrics sometimes suit their concept, nobody should be expecting deep lyricism from a girlgroup with a 14 year old 😭😭😭 i do think that katseye was meant to appeal to a large audience, not necessarily just young teens, and for that reason i definitely agree that they need to up their lyricism.

it's giving fifth harmony...also i feel like this group doesn't seem that appealing to me because i'm not 14 anymore?? idk i'll have to see if their music improves over time

Genuinely they remind me of 5th Harmony😭just the music I’m sure they’re very talented

XG do it perfectly, they are the best example on that case!

It's like the global thing is their whole identity. The concept is 'Global' and nothing else it seems like. You know what I mean? The goal is to be as vague as possible and no meaning no theme so it can fit anything cause that's global? very uninspired

Homestly, i had to laugh out loud when you mentioned that the target audience with global groups is mainly the west. With songs that sound like kidz bop and poor lyricism, they won't gain the popularity they want. They have to look for a different strategy.

It's literally ironic how international fans celebrated and praise the lord for the cringiest lyrics in KPOP saying the best album, the best songs, the bop of the year because the groups are famous or the companies are, yet some of the more thoughtful songs are being overlooked. Not only in lyricism, but the entirety of musicality and meaning of the songs, many of the more thoughtful ones are being pushed underground. I guess this is one of the factor why these KPOP companies give them such songs. To be able to differentiate them with those of western releases, as it will still feels like "KPOP" and cater to KPOP audiences. They forgot we could understand at first listen, it becomes 10x cringier and messy. Not talking about all releases, but in general.

You made so many good points here and then gagged at "can you teach me Japanese I said hai hai"…. I don’t understand 😭

one ofthe global gg i have been listening recently is XG. The lyrics in woke up is just chef’s kiss it’s so satisfying to listen to

I was kinda thinking the same thing when I was talking to my friends about it. But one main thing is to expand the vocabulary, like finding words with deeper meanings etc.

Really good video!

I'm still hoping for a Spice Girls 90s 2000s type style and with less autotune since they can all sing

Off topic but linguistics majors rise!!!!!

Oh i hope this video blows up. I love when people understand their stuff voice their opinion❤️. This advice or analysis can‘t get any better i swear. As someone who studies Marketing Management you‘re spot on and even with calling out their marketing team. Because this is the things that their supposed to pinpoint before even thinking of going this route!! This is what marketeers do!! Not sure where their investing but surely not in any target group analysis and so on. I truly wish for Katseye and Vcha to become successful✨

Brandings also weird with these groups and their lyrics. I think Vcha works or could work cuz they have a clear brand. There isn’t much tween content in this day and age and I feel like if there was then vcha would be part of it. They aren’t Disney channel levels of squeaky clean per say, but they’re pg and super fun. They aren’t annoying and trying to talk down to they’re young fans either. Nor are they specifically “kids content”. Katseye seems like it’s trying to be a group that gets the same respected as genuine music artists that could compete with big charting names. In that case then they’d need to ditch the generic lyrics. I also think they should focus on vocals more than dance. I know it’s usually the opposite w hybe but still.

Yes this is what ive also noticed, people in the west want emotional connection. That sordid intimacy, it doesnt have to be relatable but it has to feel like a confession of something. I honestly feel like if a west group release a song like Ditto or First Love by Utada Hikaru will do really well. Just makes us feel that the artists also feel the emotions of the songs. Its so apparent when u watch live videos of Adele, Chappell Roan, Billie. Whenever they sing their pop ballad its this pure emotional energy that u can feel (Adele singing Someone Like You in Brit Awards, Billie Eilish What was i made for in Grammys etc. etc.)

another video already omg choujimi is keeping us well fed 🙏

i love the takes!!! id like to see opinions of groups such as xg where they also sing in english and have that "global" standpoint, despite them sitting in a different podium than let's say, vcha or katseye?

2 videos in a row :) Thanks you so much for your hard work choujimi, I always enjoy your videos !

this reminded me of something, txt said that during their monthly evaluations, trainees had to right their own raps and most of them would be dissing on their haters. beomgyu and soobin laughed and asked rhetorically who were they dissing on since they had no haters

you hit it out of the park!!!

in my harsh opinion, international girl groups don't work in general. international groups are obviously trying to appeal to the west, but it's never successful. the answer is simply because we don't care for girl groups and never really have. sure, maybe if these international groups had better music they'd be more known in the west, but i even then I really don't think that'll change our minds about girl & boy groups.

Love the video! I've been thinking about how the absence of "fan-translators" like doolset bangtan, do you bangtan?, BTS trans/subs, armysalon, etc. has affected how people consume the music of (Hybe's biggest group), and by extention other kpop groups. Point being, I'd like to think that there IS a kpop fan audience for music with more complex lyricism, everywhere in the world. Maybe it's not young, or not the fans who are currently listening, but I think there is a market for it. AND it can feel like sometimes, companies, and execs, and the artists themselves, just don't seem to know that appealing to a slower form of music consumption can lead to longer term success. (To me, complex lyricism and reading lyrics with music in any language, but especially one the audience doesn't know, is a form of "slower consumption".) However, it's also possible the kpop music industry just doesn't believe that they will survive without focusing on quick money, but frankly I think it's more niave to think that way, than the opposite.

baeeee omg they cookin u on twtt😭😭

I think the bad lyrics are more a symptom of the larger issue that is present in pretty much all of HYBE's output over the past few years. HYBE acts create music for the sole purpose of participating in the music industry, which means that this song doesn't really express or communicate anything because the people that created it had no intention of doing so. This approach obviously works for short term profits(especially in tandem with a parasocial streaming machine), but if the music is not the priority, then the contexts in which it can be listened to are limited. When people decide what music they want to listen to, they are looking for something that not only grabs their attention, but also something that can be connected to their human experience at some level. If all you have to offer is a front without the substance, then most of your streams are gonna be coming from the grocery store speakers. I genuinely think it's possible for a kpop style idol group to be well-received while making music in english. They just need to put forth some kind of actual effort into the music itself as a priority, and perhaps even try to be creative in some way.

A big part of why these songs turn me off is because they're blatantly studio produced. Like they're just selling girl power music with the expectation we'd eat it up but there's no actual activism or depth behind it. It's all heavy handed "you can do anything" bravado that is almost patronizing.

You seem very versed knowledgeable and experienced good ethos.

I love your prologue

The problem with these kinds of groups is that they are not made for anyone. Vcha and katseye were supposed to be marketed to the west, but the thing is they can't capture the western market even if it is of diverse members. How will they, when the west already has taylor swift or Olivia Rodrigo (white or white passing) and Nicki minaz or 50 cent for black audience. Honestly Kpop industry succeed because it gave what majority Asian fans wanted ie Asian representation in music. Both katseye and vcha sang in english. No Korean lyrics, so they aren't really marketing themselves to anyone neither west nor East

it's giving itzy...but KATSEYE's empowerment message is so general that it doesn't really stand out as a girl power song. that's my primary thing. but i hope they get better lyrics, especially considering how clearly talented/skilled they are---I mean, their synchronization is ridiculous.

i agree. i think it’s evident that a lot of the writers writing these english lyrics are not native speakers, or at the very least not american and/or not a part of the younger generation whose vocabulary they are trying to use. in korean, even if the lyrical content is cliche or shallow, they at least have the ability to make a song and its lyrics flow correctly and sound pleasing to the ear as they understand the nuances of that language. just the same way any western pop artist can do the same in english, tons of popular pop songs all sing about the same old stuff but because it’s crafted by native english speakers they understand the nuances that make a song work and how to avoid the subtle pitfalls that make something sound cringey or corny. i think these things are naturally much harder to grasp for non-native speakers, as a lyric can be completely grammatically correct, etc. etc. (even though some still aren’t lol) but there are other subtle aspects that can’t really be taught and are just naturally picked up on by native speakers. just the same way native speakers of any language can almost always tell when someone else isn’t a native speaker due to the differences between how a language is taught and how it’s actually used conversationally, and there are really sooo many nuances that you can only really grasp them all holistically if you are immersed in that language at all times like native speakers are. even native speakers don’t always succeed, there are plenty of songwriters who make stuff seen as “corny” or even pandering (for example, katy perry as of late has been teasing a new era that is pretty universally being seen as corny and trying too hard to appeal to a certain lgbt audience). i think there is just frankly too many of these small obstacles to clear in terms of english lyrics, and while there are a few good examples that have succeeded (rv bad boy we love you), english lyrics usually do best as small phrases used as interjections amongst korean lyrics. these kpop companies really need to hire american native english speaking writers to, at the very least, act as consultants for english lyrics if they want to be taken seriously in the western market (which they seem desperate to be). there will always be a difference between proficiency and true fluency in a language, and in a language so complex and idiosyncratic as english it’s honestly not worth these companies time and money to keep trying to improve the english lyrics themselves rather than outsourcing them to actual english lyricists.

i think vulnerability is really hot right now which is basically impossible to create in this current kpop landscape. chapell roan, billie a, charli and even sabrina are talking about their flaws and shortcomings. yes they are bad bitches but there are also bad at love and insecure

xg is a good example of how "haters back off" lyrics in english can be made cool and digestable, their songs are well loved by their fans. their concepts and style is just dripping coolness, they cant be compared to anyone. they don't lean too much into western or asian girl group vibe, they're able to give something completely new to the audience

I guess that the bigger picture is the target market of kids, teens and adults combined. Vcha (mini twice) lean more on kids/ early teens so lyrics must be "parent-approved" and yet inspiring, love themes wont be aloud to be very messy as Rodrigo or Elish could do as they were teens. So they have the "cringe" potential for older teen and adults due naivety and simplistic view. Katseye (I was expecting American le serrafim) is between teens / adults. This first song have a lot of song bites, not only the chorus, good for using on tiktok type of videos. Way cachy then their pre debut originals. I guess they will try a "light" girl crush next to show off "coolness". If they did something "like that" of babymonster (which their ages are more appropried) in the west I guess the expectation would be to go on the sexy route, what would be worst for building up their initial reputation with younger audience. I have learned about US kids bop thing. But I am aware that did train in heels dance style that is a staple of sexy concepts, it will come. Hopefully way later.

Man, I think you nail it. I am not a native english speaker. I didn't know anything about the forming of this group. So when the song comes up, I can only say that their singing and dancing is quite interesting, but the song itself is forgettable. I guess analyzing it from the songwriting perspective explains most of it. Depending on their market target, they can't simply adopt a Kpop song formula and switch the language. KOF and XG are two groups that come into mind that releases songs in English and I find myself quite drawn to the lyrics.

The way I got curious about the groups by the way stan twt talked about them amd then I looked at their streaming numbers, let me tell you I was shocked. I thought there were at least on the Level of some groups from mid Level kpop companies given the fact they are from big companies and had a show behind the members selection. I am curious to see how far they will go with the start both of them had into their careers and how high the expections and goals have been set by the companies of they dont Blog up or get bigger

I agree. I actually don’t know much about this global groups projects, but even I can tell they don’t have a clear direction market wise; actually, I would say they fall into a very ambiguous zone, they are trying to appeal to the western market, they are also keeping the kpop sound and idol system, but at the same time they don’t define themselves as one thing or the other and it ends up being a weird mix. Kpop it’s already global, it didn’t need to change the language or the sound to become successful in the west, so what exactly are they trying with these projects? Are they going to separate themselves from the kpop world by targeting more wide audiences but while keeping some aspects of kpop? That would be interesting IF they where actually doing it. They need to quickly decide what they are gonna do bc at the time being they are only known by kpop fans and they just come across as kpop wannabes but in English, which, like you said, fans already hate that. (Not hating by the way, wishing them the best)

Choujimi is feeding us lol 🫶😭

What i hate is this channel saying its not to hate any global kpop group but here we are with the shittiest reasoning just to start a talk. First of all, most of kpop fans specially if its not their bias group can be easily fooled on hating someone by just making a video about it. Thats why KPOP Fandom is so toxic. And making a hate video about the new innovation of kpop is just another food for those hungry beast to devour. If u dont have a mom, maybe u wont get it. But most mother always taught their son/daughter, if you will only talk shit THEN DONT TALK!

songs don’t need to have serious lyrics/meaning they can just be fun pop songs. idk why people have strayed away from this concept and for some reason they expect every song to be deep and meaningful 😭😭 the song doesn’t really convey a story or message but I think that’s okay it doesn’t have to 🤷‍♂️

I think the art direction should be geared towards modern K-pop- close up glamour shots, synchronized dance and outfits, subtle MV narrative that isn’t heavy handed, and heavy camera and fx manipulation. But I think they should stick to nostalgia of 2000s pop and R&B without the corny and childish lyrics. They are closer to being an adult/mature group than they are for kids in both group name, age, and personality. Trying to appeal to everyone leads to lacking a clear vision and missing a defined target audience. They already have one: upper teen and young adult international k-pop fans. It’s easier to have younger fans latch on to them with a mature but in touch direction than older fans latching on with a cringy childish direction.

personally as long as the song sounds good i'll listen to it, so i'm a big fan of vcha but i do agree that some lyrics need to be improved

i need companies to stop making bad carbon copies of k-pop groups that will sizzle out in less than a year and focus on making good girl groups

katseye's song sounded good, but their lyrics were so 💀 i hate cringy lyrics so much, or just bad lyrics in general. if the lyrics aren't good, the song isn't good enough. if you want to make a song, at least make it meaningful by writing meaningful lyrics.

Really great rundown, it got to the heart of why the song felt dated instead of nostalgic imho.

I wish you had touched on XG as a group with English songs that definitely pull from K-pop influences but have seen huge success. Well put video!