A discussion with Marco on the ideas and ideals of the post thelemic manifesto. If you want to connect with and support Marco here is his Twitter and RU-vid Channel: az... / @marcovisconti #thelema #occult
Solitary Thelemite here, after reading the Manifesto I didn't have any expectations beforehand, I also didn't see it as a reactionary protestant sect. What drew me to Thelema was Every man and every woman is a star and what Marco added a star among other stars. That had always been a part of my intuitive steps in Thelema. Also I personally don't see this as denouncing Crowley's contributions and his work. He was genius and prolific and also deeply flawed. Anywau, great interview I subscribed to both of you.
This is a very important discussion. The concept or system of Thelemia sounds appealing in a self discovery way but the actual experiences of erstwhile thelemites is rather disturbing and makes one not even entertain a proper research on the system itself. Thank you both for having an intellectual conversation on the Thelemic matters.
AC was just a man who built a system for himself from the ingredients of Life, a la Blake. He Loved Blake and expected everyone else to be as committed to the task of buiding a system for themselves, as he was. What ends up happening is that most people are a lot lazier than AC or Blake, end up exploring his system instead! As a child i had experiences i thought my own. At twenty i discovered AC had written about these experiences 70 years before! blew my mind but i never mistook AC for the current running through history.
There is a lot of wrong I have seen from the outside looking in from James Wasserman to David Griffin. From Pagan communities to Thelemic communities. It was disgusting me and also the way that it was all the way to the leaders of those communities or when it was not the leaders how the leaders were not doing anything about it. Thelema has inherent some tendencies to become, as mentioned in the interview, prone to misogyny and authoritative nationalism. I was, just before COVID hit, contacting the centre of Thelema to get to a first meeting ...and then Covid hit.
@@Healitall Strict hierarchical structures tend to unthread at some points and highlight some ego stains within some orders, it's like the Universe or whatever showing us what we should work through to progress.
@@fullmetalmagus8784 spirituality is like running water once it stands too long still it can become toxic. Prophets are like fire often. Destroying an already existing system to transmute it to an more precious element. Some fire tend to become the new stones of that need to be overthrown because they are stuck. There is an correlating problem that exists in science too: The German physicist Max Planck said that science advances one funeral at a time. Or more precisely: “A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.
Thelema is the Book of the Law, not AC and the OTO. Most won't separate them. Even most of the rituals are barely so, only because of a Nuit name drop and such. The rituals are what they are - progressions from prior hermetic types and adaptations from Freemasonry and Rosicrucianism.
The thought of either, Wasserman or Crowley, being considered "far right/alt-right" is beyond laughable. Furthermore, the mention of "far right" libertarianism and neo-fascism in the same breath is equally laughable. Like pick one, bro.
@@TheNemeton I suppose it's unavoidable, considering how politicized everything and everyone seems to be these days, but I wish politics and the occult community could remain separate. Unfortunately, it seems far too late for that.
I do not think Marco is correct in calling the OTO "The fan club of Aleister Crowley". If it works for some people, leave it be. Criticisms of the OTO will always exist and its needed for the progress of the movement, dismissing it completely is foolish. Most of the Ex OTO people I have encountered are very salty, yet there is a need to branch off and start their own Thelemic orders/groups or they just whine ad nauseam. Interesting discussion.
It’s almost as ex OTO people know exactly why it’s useless and it doesn’t do what it promises on the tin. I wouldn’t have problem with it being the cosplay club it is: if it works for some, right? Apart when the cosplay club also harbours rapists, white supremacists, and murderers. In that case burn it to the fucking ground.
@@saturnuscreatrix yes, that is true. But what people at Man of Earth level don’t understand (because they aren’t taught anything...) is that ultimately their local bodies don’t matter. They are servants to the Lovers and Hermits, whom enable the abuse.
It was never a full book but a small piece about 4 pages long. I would wager Marco still has it loaded online somewhere or will give a link at some point. He drops by here at random intervals.
Don't feel too bad about it. Statistically I have an older audience plus Marco and I aren't really objects of interest so it's only to be expected that engagement rates are lower. That and I'm sure some people take the discussion as a literal attack on certain paradigms veiled with other points of contention. Just another day in the life :)
@@TheNemeton Marco calls them far right but doesn't specify what "far right" ideas these people postulate. Far right of who ? Of Mao? If that's a case even your milk toast liberal is considered an extremist.
@@thebanished87 he's just mad that he wasn't pushed through the ranks at a rate he felt worthwhile to his oversized ego. Took me a couple years to learn this.
This conversation has done absolutely nothing for one’s evolutionary steps forward. On one hand one must take Thelema into ones hands to help shape its expression’s into the present day and beyond. All things being equal there is that which is in opposition simply because of equilibrium, due to universal laws that however theoretical they may be,most true occultists prescribe to. Thelema is a formula with which to integrate duality such as all formulas of spiritualism are. One is merely speaking of the formula of IAO which from my magical glasses is beyond any individual’s ego and does not require societal assistance. “ evolution out ways ethics every time” from my personal flawed opinion to write a manifesto that gives no “willingly” informed information from intense study and spiritual techniques to help lend ones energy to move Thelema into the modern era is just a person walking along a seashore covered in glue. To what end!! Does any think what 100 million Catholics feel about Vatican controversy? Organized spiritual institutions fail because people fail. It is ones nature to do so. For without how does one succeed? To do something against another’s will is unhealthy and imbalanced and reaction is inevitable but how does that relate to ones work with the LBR,the star ruby,liber samech, the tarot, yoga,and all mystical and magickal practices therein? Let’s all move Thelema togetther with our true wills and our purest ambitions forward into the next chapter but let’s not throw the baby out with the bath water. For me it just proves the visage of the old aeon holding on with the remnants of its quilpothic claws.
Marco, you want to create an Aleister Crowley that doesn't exist. And rework Thelema to your taste. You are ridicul**s. Make your movement (if you can), and become the guru. But hands off Thelema. If you don't like it, stop your words here. Simply. Don't always criticize. And stop laughing like an hysterical *** all the time, it's disturbing, and chil*ish.
