The Problem with Nikon Mirrorless... 

@Matt Granger - the AF issue that you mentioned is common with every Canon and even Sony cameras as well. It’s a general mirrorless issue not specific to Nikon. Check Duade Paton’s video on this issue in Canon system. The trick here is to move your camera and focus closer to a larger subject which might not be a bird. Then again focus on the bird, it works 99% of the time. Z9 is an Amazing Camera there is nothing like it on the market currently. Perhaps Nikon should release Z90/Z500 soon which has same AF as Z9.. that will allow lot of people to purchase lower end APSC version 😊

I solved this problem by setting my af-on button to single or wide area small then the shutter/primary focus to auto area . With the af on I can have the camera focus exactly where I want and the auto-area in the shutter button can do all the guess work . I also think it’s very important Nikon gives us the option of assigning subject detect options to buttons .

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I have partly moved to mirrorless but at heart I will never leave DSLR. It still hits all the boxes for me

The epitome of positive criticism. You find issues, provide a solution and move on. But you stay with and appreciate your suff. Very professional. Been watching your channel since "That Nikon Guy" started way back!👍 The Fro would cry, complain then switch brands.🤣

I use af-on button like a single point. When the camera don't find the subject, I push the button to find it. Immediately the camera select the subject one time is on focus. Best regards!

In the firmware, and when it appears on the menu, they could also add an interval distance for how much the camera should "retract" the focus point. For example, pull back 5, 10, 15, or 20 metres to a new starting point from which to move forward to find the subject. It might ease the load on the processor as it would allow it to work within a smaller range, and likely this would reduce the electrical demand on the battery. Good work on our part on sussing this out.

There's a technical reason why MILC have this issue. The masked on-sensor PDAF pixels have a limited geometry vs the discrete PDAF sensors on DSLRs. This limits their ability to properly detect both the phase differential and phase direction when the subject under the PDAF pixels is far outside of focus. Essentially the camera is blind to the subject, and this blindness is indistinguishable to the camera vs a scenario where there's no subject under the PDAF pixels. This geometry issue is worst at long focal lengths, where the phase differentials are greatest relative to the exit pupil distance of those lenses. Your proposed solution is reasonable, although it may interfere in situations where there's no subject and the camera pays a time penalty racking through focus searching for a subject. Rather than performing this automatically I think a button to initiate it will probably yield the best balance between a solution to the issue and not breaking other AF scenarios.

The ultimate professionals at all level. Thanks for keep all content clear and concise. I am still shooting DSLR still waiting for the mirrorless camera that meet all my requirements. Keep up the great job

This is definitely true Matt. I missed a lot of shots because of this when I first got my Z8. I usually just point the camera at the ground below the subject and it focuses, then I can acquire focus on the bird. That's quicker for me than trying to fumble around for the focus ring or a recall button.

You are a very good teacher. You have been passing on knowledge for so many years and your tests are a pleasure to watch. Good photographer too. Regards :)

Agreed. I often find myself tilting the lens downwards to a closer focus point then look at the subject to focus. I like your recall button hack, will set it up.

When my lens is already focused beyond the subject I point down at the ground or something close by and get it to focus on that quickly and then back to the subject and it grabs the subject more easily. Your plan for a programmable distance to refocus sounds very good.

Good one matt. Thanks for letting everyone know about this issue.

I set a button to activate pin point focus. Would this ease the pain?

Well said sir! Great tip on using the Lens Function Button to pull focus back for the don't see anything issue. Thanks.

Z9 Autocapture includes a system to limit focus range from a near point to a far point. Could that facility be added to the usual focus system. We could stop it jumping to the background

Just program a button for focus recall... or for AF-ON with a small area... will focus on the closest object it can find.

I have seen it even with stuff like the horizon using a single point: it's foggy, my Zf could not find focus and my D750 did it immediately. I did not have the Z8 with me so I don't know if it will be better. I believe your solution is very good. I have not seen Nikon's code, so I am not sure how easy is to add that logic. One issue is that the Nikon system is comparably slow going from closer focus to infinity compared to Sony and Canon so maybe they try and it was counterproductive most of the time. Finally, to underscore Matt's final point, I used to do a lot of Dance photography and people loved my results because I was able to nail the face and peek action most of the time. Back then, and even during the DSLR days, nobody was opening the picture in a 4K looking at the jump at 100%, and checking if the eyes were in focus (I am talking about the presentation, with no flash). It was: face is basically in "focus", dude you are a monster. Same for birds, you were expected to sharpen the eyes a little bit, not to nail the eyes of a bird in flight at f2.8 all the time. The cameras are pretty good but basically, Sony changed the game forever.

I’d be willing to dedicate a function button to recall focus if I didn’t have to have a *second* fn button to set focus. Why can’t I hold-to-set and press-to-recall?

Thank you for the video... Surprised there is not a custom function for, AF lock on sensitivity ?

i have a d3000 and i feel ive mastered it should i upgrade?

Totally agree Matt. I sometimes wonder if the focusing could be helped when the Z9 is confused if it reduced its aperture and so increased its depth of field in certain focussing situations. The viewfinder is now capable of brightening the image for the photographer. Increased DOF could also help the photographer find his subject quicker though the sensor will have less light to work with

i have noticed this on my z50 when I attached the f mount 18-200 lens using the ftz ii adapter. The camera simply gives up on trying to find focus, so I end up having to manually assist it to give it a sense of the scene then it will focus.

My biggest complaint (with my Z6ii) is that I can't assign a button to switch from single point AF to group/dynamic AF- like my D500 could. Is this an option on the Z8 or Z9?

I find this happens with my Fujifilm H2S sometimes. I use a mode that allows manual focus while in autofocus. Focus recall button is also very useful. Yes, you are spot on. Seems that the processor could make focus steps to reacquire focus.

The other issue that I've noticed is that when using strobes or sometimes flash in a medium to low light situation, If I set the camera to ASA 65 - 100 F to f11-f16 my view finder is almost black. With a DSLR, (D750 -D850), I have no problem with the optical finder. When using natural light it's great that the viewfinder shows what kind of exposure I'm going to get before I take the shot, but with strobes this just dosn't work at all. Any ideas ? Thanks

I've definitely encountered it on my Zf, same problem, same fix. While I haven't been trying to shoot things that it really interfered with, it would definitely be nice to see fixed.

Canons are the same, this problem exists with all Mirrorless cameras and not just Nikon. I used an R5, R7 and same thing I’ve also experienced this.

Hi Matt, absolutely right I’ve the same issue with Z9 and 800mm F5.6E. Hopefully Nikon weak up and fix the firmware. Great Video.

Cool video. Question about the D700: Where ever I read something about the D700 people seem to mention the extraordinary color rendition of that camerabody. What is your take on that, is it as good as people tend to say or is it mostly nostalgia?

Cool watch. Which is it?

Matt, are you satisfied with your Z9’s Eye-AF accuracy? I find that the square shows it is on the eye, but in post processing I discover it is not. Any suggestions? Also, in all your travels and photo sessions, how much does atmospheric haze affect your shooting? I recently was frustrated using the Z 600mm Phase Fresnel for two weeks before the haze lifted and the photos became razor sharp. Thanks, JP

I fell down stairs at Christmas and saved my EOS R but broke my leg. Lost a good excuse to buy a new camera and laid me out of work for two months with a stack of medical bills. Lesson: know when drop your gear to save yourself. Health is infinitely more valuable. Trust me.

The autofocus issue is such a delight to hear told - because - it occurs on other systems too! Here i was hearing that the Z-system was all-that, getting annoyed specifically with focus subject detection on my duji x-h2s and 150-600 lens, and the issue turns out to be endemic to mirrorless! Thanks!!! Now i definitely love my fujis and consider the issue a general one!

Good for you. I thought it was my technique that caused the out of focus problem on my Z9. It wasn't, it's the camera... still figuring out the best way to fix it.

I know this isn't what the video was about but I love your watch. What kind/brand/model is it?

Hi sir, I need some suggestion. I am planning to upgrade my body . I am a wedding photographer, some time needs to video occasionally . Already have a line up of afs f mount lens 35 1.8, 50,85,24-70,18-200 … now for update, as per my budget I took three choices d780, Z6ii with ftz, d850(second hand) can you tell me which will be better for me . Is there any prob with autofocus/sharpening if I use f mount lens on mirrorless because I dont want to sell that lens line up .

Would this be like Depth From Defocus? For as much flack as Panasonic old DFD system uses to get, I found it more accurate on numerous occasions. Just a pain in the azz for wildlife and video

For this particular problem I would suggest a "bi-directional" focus rack. If it starts at the "near end", then when it hits a limit at the "far end", then immediately reverse the focus direction and continue until finds a valid subject in focus, or gets back to where it started.

10:07 Would an 'Ethernet Hub Port RJ45 Anti-Dust Cover Plugs Protector Stopper Cap for Female Port' (Amazon) help?

The reason why DSLRs are much less prone to this issue, is that their dedicated phase AF sensors are set up in a way that gives them a much deeper DoF. Even when your subject is blurred beyond recognition in the image at wide open aperture, DSLR PDAF system still sees it as it would have been with lens aperture considerably closed and thus getting a much higher chance of catching it.

My canon r5 acts the exact same way and I’ve heard it explained so many times simply as how mirrorless cameras works. You’ve offered the first possible solution I have heard. Love your consistent loyalty and criticism. You’ve shown over the years that you have a preference but you’re not a blind loyalist. Respect for that for sure.

I just bought the 180-600 as a combo with the 1.4x TC, and I love it. But I also recognized the described behavior. It doesn't bother me that much because it didn't happen that often. What I really need is some kind of "legacy" flash mode since I can't use my portable studio flashes anymore in HSS mode with my Z8. The flash interval doesn't seem to synchronize with sensor read-out. So the upper third (or the left side) is nearly black and/or I get very bad banding... Small strobes/on-camera flashes work flawlessly in HSS even off-camera.

i use in that situation the af recall Funktion, first i set it to 6-8 Meters. I need fast go back i press Button on the lens or on the cam.

Yeah I observed this … I just explain this problem to my camera n it understood. it was v easy. Now my camera does it

I am thinking about what to do with my D750 but it still works well

Have you tested the megadap adapter to test how sony lenses autofocus on Nikon Z?

I believe that happens only with auto area and 3d tracking modes. In single point mode for example my Z8 is racking back ans forth.

What kind of watch is that Matt?

Amen Matt. My D500 would even quickly refocus. The same is true in Animal AF as well but not as much as birds but still happens more than people would think. Also enjoyed your shutter shield broke video got me thinking to always carry back-ups with me on future trips.

As a event photographer, Z8 feels like a downgrade when it comes for low light events - no AF-assist from flash. Second thing is, camera will focus using F5.6 for focusing if that aperture is set for shooting (dSLR will close aperture only during shooting ) So basically i cant shoot in lowlight using flash and using some smaller aperture (even F4 - camera will struggle to lock focus on anything) Damn, im refreshing nikonrumors webpage everyday expecting new firmware update

Do Nikon lenses tell the camera when they are about to hit close focus or does it see stop when the motor lugs down? If the latter then maybe it was a power saving effort to leave it out as DSLRs didn’t have to worry so much about battery life? Making it an option would then, as you say, make more sense but not the default which understand was in DSLRs.

Matt's nature footage is spot on: No effects/overly done color correction BS, calm, tasteful and suitable music, variety of closeups vs wide shots. well done mate.

I run into this very issue with birds at a distance and then having birds coming in to roost at dusk. Trying to switch over to the flying target of opportunity which is usually at closer range is a challenge. I will definitely be programming in that focus button you discussed for my trip next month to Florida birding. Thanks for the tip!

Can you switch focus limiter to 0-3m on the lens to pull focus back during the shoot?

Always good advice on this channel. Your tips on improving subject detect AF on the Lumix G9 made a big difference in my keeper rate for birding. Of course I'm leading up to the fact that the G9 offers a near-focus, far-focus programmable option and two buttons well placed at the front of the camera to nudge the camera lens in either direction should it become confused.

Matt, thanks for highlighting the focusing issue. You are exactly correct. As an older gainfully employed hobbyist my time and funds are limited. It's becoming more difficult for me to travel with larger lenses. Particularly with airline carry on camera equipment. My lens of choice with my Z8 is the 400/4.5 S lens. I can use the DX function button to extend to 600mm. I would like your recommendation on a 2 x teleconverter as an alternative to going to the Z 600mm f/6.3 VR S. Use case wise, I like the 400mm lens. My other travel lenses are the 14 -30/4 S and 24-120/4 S. Thanks.

I bought a Z8 and put a Yongnuo YN 568 Ex flash on it, with which it communicates in TTL mode, but it overexposes terribly! Then I looked it up and saw that this was a problem for other people as well. I have Yongnuo flashes and triggers and I don't know if it would be possible to use the Z8 in TTL mode with another Yongnuo flash, or will I have to buy a much more expensive Nikon flash? A video on this topic would be nice. Nikon Z and non-Nikon TTL flashes. (Google was my translator)

Does this camera have a button for focusing? Sony A7iv has, so can focus on what ever you select or what's in the centre. Halfpressing shutter does it or AF-on does it. Can use the small joystick to select focus point or touch the screen. I've not tried it big lenses. Pressing joystick resets it to centre. This feature means there's no need to manually focus, it works mos tof the time. I think the camera only missed focus once. I only have one lens so far. No idea how it would perform with a big lens. The camera is not perfect but got it second hand from a dealer, like new so was a great buy. No camera is perfect.

The problem is they overheat when you put them in fire, they sink when you put them in water, they freeze when you put them in the icebox, and they stop working with the battery dies. Honestly disgraceful no other brand has this problem.

What AP do you have on Matt?

Interesting issue/inconvenience...and great suggestion!

thank you! The same thing happened to me with the z8 and a sigma 150-600. It may happen on all cameras but it is extremely exaggerated and sometimes it does not move even when focused close and changing to 1 focus point. You can only do this by moving the ring. Thanks for letting me know that it's not me or my camera! 🤗🤜🏼

An excellent explanation and video, thanks for posting this.

Great conversation Matt , thanks.

If one is standing on the street and scanning the sky, others may look up as well but cannot identify what the first person is looking until he/she pointing it out. That is what the System Analyst has to figure out what to do next when the Z AF is filled with out of focus objects. The possibility can be endless, such as the photographer may wish to focus at any distance from 0.1m to infinity. One possible software solution is similar to a binary (half-interval) search by half the distance in front and back or using other search algorithms. AI with deep learning may help but not in an accidental decisive moment, such as a more interesting subject appears at random distances (big foot, accidents, etc.). As with programmable button, but some may dislike the complexity and best with common instances. Thus, Canon R3's eye tracking may be a better solution. In the meantime, we just have to be a MacGyver. 🙂

Thanks for the video. Coming from D500, I wondered why Z9 was missing focus on some BIF which has caused considerable chagrin. In future will start closer with recall.

Great video! I have also noticed this issue while shooting sports, I have to admit, I thought maybe it was just me, but this video confirmed what I was experiencing as well. Cheers!

Can't you set the temporary single point focus to any of the buttons? You expert, you? I jumped ship to Canon now, here's option to keep racking focus, or not. Isn't something similar on Nikons?

Totally agree with this and my personal gripe is Aperture priority Auto ISO at high shutter speeds (DSLR and Z9) are different

The biggest problem is not being able to auto focus AF-D lenses. Nikon were always exemplary at backwards compatibility with F mount but not having an FTZ with a focus motor is poor. It reduces your Z9 to the capabilities of a D3500 when using AF-D lenses.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I'm looking to buy a z8 but having seen several videos about eyelashes focus in portrait, I'm holding on. I had the very same issue with the SOny A7RIV and now with the A7R5 the focus is almost 100% right.

Great positive criticism, thank you

Thank you for this video! New z8 owner with a Sigma F mount 500 f4. I've been having intermittent focus issues exactly as you describe here, so good to know it's not my kit. Hopefully this gets a firmware fix soon!

Glad to hear this. It has been a very annoying problem for me and I thought it was me. Just didn't understand why this great auto focus system, for me, was not all that great at times.

At least Nikon have introduced the focus return button l am stuck still using manual adjustment.

why can’t we just have the 3d tracking from DSLRs ported to this. that was another level! does it have to do with the fact that the focus points were dedicated and they had this contrast detect focus points in addition to the phase detect ones ? Anyway to replicate this in mirrorless ?

I don't shoot birds, but one thing where the Z9 is still worse than a DSLR is shooting in the studio with flashes. Once you go beyond f5.6, the focusing becomes slower, and I much prefer using the D850, which is faster and more accurate in such conditions. I have almost zero waste with D850, while with the Z9, there are quite a few poorly focused photos for my taste.

Matt You are so thoughtful & insightful man!! Thank you for this wonderful catch while also being fair!!! You are a real inspiration💯💯

Personally I find it strange that the world of professionals has not yet asked manufacturers to make cameras to take photographs and to make them ergonomic! I have been working in photography for more than twenty years and already at the time my advice for choosing a reflex was: "go into a shop, pick up a Nikon, pick up a Canon, buy the one you like best"! The image level was almost similar, it was valid in both cases and the discriminating factor was ergonomics! Now all cameras (Nikon, Canon, Sony, Fuji, Panasonic, etc...) produce excellent files but you can't hold them in your hand! I was hoping for the Z9 and Z8...but they're still not good for me! It's not my nostalgia, it's a work necessity. When Nikon goes back to building a camera to take photos (the 6K, 8K 1000K...it's of no use to me) with ergonomics first...then I might switch to mirrorless. For now...D850 remains queen! Everything else...is superfluous to me!

22 years of Nikon when the Canon r7 came out was enough for me, canon autofocus is so far ahead of nikon it was time to dump all nikon and switch, I have not looked back.

Yes can be a pain happens a lot with z8 and some birds don't hang around long , or moving the lens to something in foreground still scares bird off, strange that my Olympus doesn't suffer as badly and will still grab focus coming far to near, maybe down to smaller sensor. so can be done. Great video Matt .Thanks

I think the solution shouldn't be too difficult. Panasonic cameras have a feature called near AF and far AF, which you can set to any of the buttons or the joystick on the camera body. It basically tells the camera that the subject is closer or further from the current focus distance.

I'm new to your channel. May I know what camera you're using when you filmed this video?

I have the two custom front buttons on my G9 set to 'AF-ON Close' and 'AF-ON far', so it knows where to look. With contrast only it needs the assistance.

I think the back focus issue is probably the biggest gripe with the Nikon Z system. Canon and Sony seem to scan the full focus range to find the subject while Nikons just kind of sit where they are to search for the subject. I still love my Zs and will keep them because I prefer them to the other systems. I just learn to use my gear knowing the limitations.

I have been thinking of jumping from my D810 to Z6II > but the auto focus really makes me hesitant on the upgrade.

You are spot on there with focussing birds.

So much computing, overrides, programming, menus... Go aperture priority, manual exposure and use your brain, it's the best computer there is. With both film and digital :)

I hope they do this. One other thing I'd like to see improved, Depth of field preview when stopped down past F 5.6 on the rear screen

This same issue happens to almost all mirrorless cameras, regardless of brand; so it might be something inherent with mirrorless sensors and firmware may not be enough to fix the issue. The new Panasonic G9 Mark II allows you to program button to force the focus to search closer or further from the current point with some success.

I agree there is a focus issue as you described and it has improved with recent updates. I have set the F1 button to single point when I need to get between branches or finding focus in the issue you mention. As you mention, the keeper rate has increased with the auto detection and I hope in due time there will be another firmware upgrade to further address the focus issue. Agree the door cover panels could have been designed like the D5/D850, for better protection.

Absolutely agree and support!

I get that with My DSLR once in a while. so i will adjust lens preset short distance and turn off camera. so lens stays at that range.

Tnx Matt

This is a great presentation. Of course the product is great, but getting to the edge on actual, in depth use with intelligent commentary makes this a worthwhile video. Thanks for the info.

Hi Matt, thanks for a new great video. I most shoot sports and wildlife and use both A74+Sony 200-600 and KI-Il + Pentax 150-450 and I get 3 times more pictures with the Sony but sometimes more keepers with the Pentax. Just get sloppy and loose control and think mirrorless will fix it all is to drop down your skills permanent. Good to grab DSLR:s for training and keeping skills alive. I like to use both systems and will never drop the Pentax, does not matter how adwanced the mirrorless will be in the future. Tested the R5 and R6 for 3 days with RF lenses but did not get impressed. Have had the D500 and used Nikon Z6Il + 70-200f2.8 on a Nikon photo walk and It was a very nice setup. Did put it against A74+Tamron 35-150 and K1-II + Pentax 70-200f2.8 and all has its plus and minus. Was a heavy day, 3 systems around my neck but fun. As you say use the system you like and train train train and the results will come. Unfortunately most people only read spec sheets before buying, if possible, rent different systems and test them out before ending up with cameras and lenses for E 10.000 and then they stay at the shelf. Dont release a Volcano, stay calm at Iceland. All the best from Sweden another interesting photo challenge / Bengt

I wish I had this problem! Can only imagine how frustrating this is. Interesting video Matt.

Matt, have you ever written to Nikon with your thoughts?