The Problem With Tearing Down Statues... 

What's your take on the Ukrainians, Poles, Lithuanians, Latvians and Estonians taking down soviet/russian/colonial statues?

@@cypressbutane4575 they shouldn’t be remembered as slave owners. They don’t have a statue because they owned slaves.

As much comedy is impotant to adults, Cartoons definitely has the same impact to children. Networks should be careful promoting any explicit ideologies, because we adults will joke about how ridiculous this garbage network. Lol.

Professor are you ok!? Why was your lecture today in LA canceled?

Let's be completely honest here there is a systematic form of racism that western culture thrived from for centuries even to this day and those statues only got erected after the Civil rights movement here in America to a bunch of racist traitors to their own country because they wanted to keep another race as property where the bottom line was maintaining power & money so once again it's not about Attacking western society it's an Attack on the wrongs that were done not only to the black American race but to the indigenous people that were here first too.

It just shows how far the 'Just because you fill-in-the-blank doesn't mean you're not a racist' argument can go if it's not challenged. Apparently, according to them, just because you die fighting literal Nah-zees racists it doesn't mean you're not a racist yourself.

That is these A.H.'s Modus operandi, they contribute nothing themselves, all they do is spew their pathetic bile on the rest of us and historical figures. Bunch of Tossers

So what you are saying, despite having a statue to remember them by... we still forgot? Hmm... what purpose does a statue serve? The aggrandizement of another human? They are not even here to receive praise or to defend themselves from accusation.

@@RubesGoodBrainCoffee Just replying to this comment alone. I'm not implying or suggesting any other opinion. But yes, just because you fight Nazis it does not mean you are not racist yourself.

I'm disappointed to see you write that they have "done nothing with their lives." What do you know about those people? Have you met them? Your disdain for those who do actions you don't approve of has caused you to be just like the people you hold disdain for. Hypocrisy at its finest.

That's exactly what is happening now- Orwell predicted all of this.

I came here to say this.

This really sends spooky chills up my spine...

The left is not liberal. They are marxists and they will erase all of history just as they have always done.

@@bludeuce3855 I sincerely hope you are correct.

Does that change the fact of how he depicted a black person in his painting though

@@AP-pk6mk do you even know the painting? Have you ever seen it? Or do you just like having an opinion and criticizing something you have no idea about?

@@michaelnoble2432 I have seen it. I am not even for banning it. You assumed that about me. My point is what tf does going to Normandy gave to do with anti blackness in his paintings??

I bet everyone in our past has some sort of dark secret that today wouldn't fit our modern standards. It's part of our history and through history, we've had our flaws. Look at George Washington the man who helped give birth to our nation and help save our Revolution by simply stepping away. Better yet Honest Abe who help lead the effort to end slavery in America. Today these leaders face Cancelation just because they either owned slaves or in Lincoln's case just because the statue presents Lincoln as the master, which btw is further from the truth. Btw the same happened North of the border in Canada and also the UK. We must balance honoring our heroes while recognizing they weren't perfect people and were men of their time.

@@AP-pk6mk First, depicting a black person in a painting is not anti-blackness. Second, it would be foolish and anachronistic to judge historical figures solely by modern moral standards. Third, it is ghastly hubris to condemn an historical figure for one supposedly sinful misstep when the preponderance of their legacy is good.

You are right.....you cannot find that painting anywhere online.

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It probably was erased because of it's name? Then they look no further.

Could you be more specific as to what it looks like? I find this interesting. Also, have you tried yandex? It's a very popular Russian search engine, so it may yield different results. It also may be the case that the art was obscure and this dissapeared. There is also a theory that the internet had shrunk, substantially compared to the rich content of the 90s and early 00s. Aptly named the "dead internet theory".

@@JoePedo I would courageously stare her down.

Yes I love that “courtesy window”. I agree 100%. I find the problem today is anybody living in America and under maybe 50 yo has never had to actually struggle to accomplish anything, they’ve never had to go hungry bc of tax payer assistance through the gov., or truly do without the basic necessities. They are just bored and needing excitement so they create problems where there are no problems to soothe their boring life. It’s actually very simple.

@@gracieloufreebush38 But then what?!

@Sam H violence, war, genocide. You know, the usual.

@@JoePedo so you called the original poster Medusa and then antagonize others by asking then what? Others rightfully don’t like you and the like due to your own choices, and you and others should hold no expectation of being included in or being entitled to anything by default

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👌🏼👌🏼👌🏼

True

Yeah. China: gets punished for the current behavior. Western globe: gets punished for the history and imaginary current racism.

That's how I think too. Specifically, with #2. Those figures are products of their culture to some degree, just like we are, and it's unfair to hold people who lived hundreds of years ago to the moral standards of today. Everyone agrees slavery is terrible but it was sadly a part of many cultures, not just America's, for THOUSANDS of years. If going back and judging people based on their association to slavery has merit, very few have any ancestors that could pass that test. And think of all the other social changes in society. Have any of those historical figures married someone under 18 and if so, are those people pedophiles? We don't have statues of people who do great things because they are perfect and our moral leaders - the statues stand because of the great thing they did, in spite of all their imperfections.

#7 the ones tearing down statues are often exacting the same ignorance they deem themselves morally superior to (or exacting a much deeper form of ignorance)

I mean if we are tearing down statues, we might as well start tearing up the continental railroad too. Can't leave a single trace of slavery.....

Douglas Murray said a line that I borrow. “History is not a play pen for moral judgment.”

So forget about the past but don’t destroy anything that represents the past. Makes perfect sense 👍

How much you wanna bet they still have a copy of Mein Kampf?

Imagine if we still had all the books contained in the library of Alexandria 🤯

@@Frvnklin Or all the written information in China that's been burned time, after time, after time

The Nazis had book burnings

@@ymran2187 exactly what I was thinking. We can’t have people who owned slaves but hitler... oh that’s fine.

Has Murray changed his views on elections?

Stop it with the "legend " shit.

I'm glad he can stand up for himself. I am just seeing him debating how people dare do stuff like the radical left does.

@@steelcom5976 Your fake limited account gives you very little credibility to judge his standards.

@@steelcom5976 Yes, thank you for your concern

Morals are tested and tried over and over again, it seems. What once seemed proper isn't, what once was unthinkable is acceptable. All to then collapse back into a core set of morals that will stand until the next test is upon it and us.

@@JerbilKonai Agree. But a society of entitled nit wits are trying to be relevant. When we all know they are passing farts in the night.

That's exactly what I think has been happening now. Thankfully not as bad ....yet

This is a strange witch hunt where the majority is against the witch hunt but is being silenced.

This isn't humanity. It's leftism.

I know! He had major interruption syndrome there for a while. It was quite acute, I noticed. Perhaps he did, too.

As much as I love most of what jp has to say, I think most of us who follow the channel have heard it already, and are listening to the guests on the show!

Absolute FACTS.

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Yeah right..

@@arivindharanbalakrishnan418 It's true. Sonny Puzikas said it on an FB Live during the 2020 summer of love.

@@arivindharanbalakrishnan418 Just because you're a contrarian doesn't mean you're the smartest guy in the thread lmao. Believe it or not there's real people out there with real life experiences.

May not sound philosophical but it still cuts deep

yeah francisco.. they hypocrisy right? These woke people want to live as freaks, and try to be as disruptive as possible to society. Another words, they are proud of how bad they are. But in spite of this, they have no problem judging others for tiny or even extremely remote things.

But don't statues specifically venerate the subject and represent them as good and morally pure? I think some statues, such as those that represent confederate figures who actively rebelled against the United States to preserve slavery, should be taken down. I think they should be taken down legally of course, not through a riot. We won't stop learning about someone because we take their statue down, and some historical figures should not be venerated, even if we appreciate their contribution to history. I think there's a difference between idolizing someone through a statue, and understanding and appreciating their contribution, whilst understanding and accepting their faults.

@@tsc-ko1yy that is one tough call. Erasing history leads us back to the same mistakes, and IMHO, US Civil war was a conflict between brothers, which should've never happened. Yet the leaders of that time were looking for glory, as politicians of all eras.

​@@tsc-ko1yy I don't think it necessarily has to be about moral purity. Statues are an extreme and public form of award, like a medal. In fact there's plenty of statues of athletes, soldiers and military leaders. There's also lots of statues of founders. These statues were not necessarily made because the people were "good", except possibly in the aristotelian sense. It is true that a person with questionable morality is less likely to have a statue made. In part that's just because people feel less inclined to honor a person they don't like, even for unrelated reasons, but it's also because, as you said, the statues serve as something to idolize and we don't want to risk people idolizing someone for the wrong reasons. I think this is often taken a bit far though. Taking down statues of Dictators and invaders or depictions of people in the act of supporting slavery is one thing, but it seems to me like some of these statues are being taken down and vandalized for things that can be considered footnotes (Not in the sense that is a small thing, but in the sense that isn't really what we remember the person for). Part of what's happening is that we're rewriting the history of individuals to elevate from being a footnote, at which point taking down the statue can be justified.

And there's many things we do today that our ancestors would condemn. Plus, our own descendants are going to think we're bat sh*t crazy

Yes well their cultural soup is getting a revolt so it seems. Not all People are buying into the woke crap.

@@berkvjli Let us hope that it is as you say, because that's our only hope to save the human cultural heritage...it would be an absolute nightmare to lose all the literature, philosophy, art, and beauty that the west and the east have produced for us and the future generations to an idealogy, and believe me I know what I'm talking about because that is exactly what happened in Iran after the religious fascist regime of Khomeini took over our land in 1979

They were coming to ‘check his thinking’.

@@Tentin.Quarantino Ha! That thought also crossed my mind. They are coming to correct his thinking.

no one is trying to purify the past, its precisely because we know how ugly it is that people dont want it on a mural, or as a statue. the people who are opposed to taking these statues and paintings down are the ones trying to purify the past finding every and any excuse to keep them up. "cant judge the past by current standards" "its just history" "we should accept our heritage" are all ways of minimizing the actual immorality of some of these things.

@@tayamkay Interesting viewpoint thank you. I am glad you didn't accuse anyone of being proud of the horrific aspects of history. I know what you mean, these aspects are shocking and hurt our modern sensibilities. Nevertheless history was brutal, especially if you go back to the stone age, it is wise to reveal evidence of that brutality lest we go back to it. Otherwise we are in danger of believing that things like that could never happen.

Its extremely intentional. It's not just that they don't like these things, it's that they want you to not like them either, and if you do, that you should be denied the opportunity to derive enjoyment or thought from these things.

These statues are destroyed so younger people will not recognize the same patterns and plans being played out now. Same with books and information.

👌🏼simple and concise. No way around it

I'd be on the lookout for where we dropped that bloody map...

@@zekezero12345 He meant a grave, not some pirate treasure

Chesterton's Fence

the 'white peoples' should respond by denying the 'benefits' of their cuture (e.g. air travel) to those who seek erase their culture or history (from which there are good lessons to learn). Easier said than done I know but an entertaining thought exercise. Frankly I gave up giving massive aggregate amounts to charities in 2016 that helped the less fortunate abroad after learning the extent of the contempt toward givers like it was a debt owed. Today I see this contempt increasingly - especially from India - and conclude I did the right thing. Sad but true. Very sad.

@@MrZoomZone It is possible the contempt comes from envy. They wish to erase the accomplishment of the Europeans or somehow prove they were part of those accomplishments. The cities, states and countries that have allowed the destruction of statues and also the revisionist history of the West are the only voices heard.

My question would be, who actually gives a shit? We are alive now, one day we will be dead, why are we spending the time in between worrying how some pansies translate the past?

The root of the left's belief is marxism. They are communists.

@@ce5890 Very true. But in between now and death we have this neat thing called _'civilisation'_ which we're all kind of working on. We're trying anyway. Look at all the beautiful stuff we've built. Look at all the beautiful literature we have written. It's here as proof that we aspire to more than just _'meet, fuck, procreate'._ This tiny window of life is worth defining. It's worth enjoying.

Well said. There are too many people seeking to be a professional victim or to be part of a group of professional victims. There's many reasons but I'll give it a go. First I think its the easy route. It's so much easier to say you've been hurt or slighted somehow. But when asked or maybe called out on it just turn into a pile of unconsolable emotional goo and expect sympathy and somebody else to make a change for you. Those people are very different from people who are victims empowered by a tragedy in their life and lace their boots and get their hands dirty making a change. Our culture is creating more of the first kind of person. And with the internet and social media it's made too easy to just virtue signal from your bunny slippers and type "me too!" Sippin on some no accountability tea. Second, is the focus of needing to be validated by others. I don't understand this need for people to have some form of validation from people exponentially outside of their core bubble of people. Compare a persons list of 'followers' to how many of them they come in contact with consistently. I believe this goes hand in hand with the need to be coddled. Look to participation trophy's, kids not being spanked, and weak parents building weak character traits in their kids. The first victim in this example wants someone else to fix it and needs validation. The other one who laced their boots and got their hands dirty obviously takes matters into their own hands to do something about it and doesn't need anyone else's approval to know they're doing the right thing. I believe I'm just brushing the surface here.

It’s like repenting….. but for other people. Which obviously doesn’t work. It’s so easy to judge unjustly or u mercifully or wrongfully etc without looking inward. People are forgetting (or dismissing with their superiority complex over the past and others) baseline principles that keep society functional and peaceful! Jesus said (Matthew 7) 3 “And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.” Alma the younger speaking to his son Corianton. (Alma 41) 14 Therefore, my son, see that you are merciful unto your brethren; deal justly, judge righteously, and do good continually; and if ye do all these things then shall ye receive your reward; yea, ye shall have mercy restored unto you again; ye shall have justice restored unto you again; ye shall have a righteous judgment restored unto you again; and ye shall have good rewarded unto you again. 15 For that which ye do send out shall return unto you again, and be restored; therefore, the word restoration more fully condemneth the sinner, and justifieth him not at all.

same, I love painting racist caricatures of black people but now apparently I hear that people don't like racist caricatures of black people, woke mob has gone too far.

Yes, but Star Wars is a commercial product, as you said "a franchise", would the same be applicable to Coca-Cola or KFC, which honestly are mediocre products compared to artisanale work.

@@salimmazariboufares3118 They are deeply embedded into our cultures. The U.S. didn't name their first space shuttle 'Enterprise' because Star Trek was a commercial product on par with Coca Cola and KFC.

Who's destroying star trek stuff? I've never heard of a single incident 😳

@@deejayyy1681 The creators of Star Treks 'Discovery' and 'Picard' are.

@@RubesGoodBrainCoffee oh please 🤣

He never said anything in this video you sound like a sheep

I don't disagree, but this particular clip is 95% Douglas Murray speaking. ;)

Stupid statement. Like saying black lives matter. You stupidly promote one without substance and demote the rest without substance.

In saying, “they”, would that be the people or the statues? 😆

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Yep muslims nearby me have also destroyed a lot of Ancient roman statues etc Mannequins and posters too but that doesn't matter

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Personally I think tearing down Soviet statues is different, some nations, like Poland, viewed them as an occupying force. But if the people want them up to represent their history, that's their decision not mine.

Yes, tearing down the Ukraine statues seem to be more like history being written, rather than history being erased.

@@Michael_Hunt I agree with you.

@@morganga absolutely agree. Well said.

doooood my thoughts exactly about black history being altered and erased vs. european history.....like ive GROWN UP knowing schools and general media are telling an incomplete/falsified history lesson as far as black ppl in america (or in general for that matter, i.e. Egypt).....now, i havent listened to the entire interview so i maybe a little off or what have you, but its SEEMS like european history is worried about what people of color's history have been dealing with for ages....

I think the crux is you are being asked to respect the ancestry of someone who refuses even to consider respecting yours based on race..ie you are white..I think irrespective of the ancestry of such a person it falls on the individual to actively engage in the situation and not to passively acquiesce due to some sense of self superiority.

Agreed. That's the tipping point. It's not healthy or beneficial to go there. I think many if us were taught early on not to stoop to their (the opposition) level. It tarnishes and discredits ones integrity. But the beauty in recognizing how his frustration may have begun to lead him down a less than savory path is the ironic resemblance to thr exact topic at hand. Do we discredit him entirely based on his flawed humanity, or do we give credit where credit is due and simply acknowledge that he's not a perfect example either?..

I had what I think is a similar reaction. Douglas Murray has recklessly chosen to frame his viewpoint and argue from a me/you or us/them dichotomy. It’s a petulance not befitting either his intellect or his stature as a public intellectual. This idea that he would do some sort of line drawing in which he would decidedly choose to “not respect” the ancestors of any modern racial or ethnic population because he feels attacked, today, by some fringe radical descendants thereof is deeply problematic. One need not do much in the way of extrapolation to see that Murray is indulging bigotry and ascribing the behavior of disagreeable ideological adversaries to a larger group of people . . . and their ancestors.

When all is said and done..however it is rationalized today we have one racial group that it is perfectly fine to target and ridicule while all other groups are protected under a veneer of victimization...can this condition continue without bitterness and resentment setting in...it's a very simple problem.

Precisely. Especially when the decisions to add such names to a black list are not even being made by the people he wants to draw the line on. Disturbing to me how a lot of people in the comments are cosigning how he's going about things tbh. He was all over the place.

Just like that Jimmy Saville statue, right?

@@ZeroOne46 about western mass média propaganda for all.

@Arbane's Sword I know …

@@ajp8849 yeah sure, eldrich charracters and different name font to trick youtube, joined one month ago and one subscriber. Delivering an obvious scam message, impersonating someone that by all means and purposes has nothing to do with cryptocurency, even if he did he wouldn't give advice on it due to the unpredictable nature of the market, even if he did he wouldn't do it in the comments he'd do it in a video since it's more efficient, and still give a thorough disclaimer. Who the fuck would fall for this?

Nice

The irony of bringing Hitler into this conversation in the present decade is not lost on some. Hitler this We're, Hitler that. We're in year 80 of scapegoating one tyrant among a world full of them at the time, and erasing the real history surrounding the rise and fall of him because well, the earie parallelsf the Weimar disaster that led to it all. For instance...the longstanding meme of nazis burning books. Well, so what books did they burn? Obviously they weren't just opposed to books, literacy in the nazi era Germany was higher than most of the world. If you Google it you get mainstream articles suggesting just the works of people like Einstein or Freud...but when you dig deeper you find the bulk of book destruction was aimed at communists..ok..but also...the precursors to modern pedophilia, child grooming and sex change gender theory was at the top of the list. Nothing new under the sun. And Hitler didn't orchestrate the burnings...usually college kids in Germany did. Which is a bit ironic considering what college kids today believe.

For example...?

Just cos someone cries on twitter, dont make them right

Yes but the problem is the slippery slope and the mob mentality that just wants to consume one thing after another and not know when to quit.

Who gets to decide? You? Why?

@@Mike__G i think it should be a local democratic process. In germany this is called "Volksentscheid" direct democracy seems to be rarer in the US

Yes. Unlike you, we have no desire for anyone to forget the Holocaust.

So Jefferson was a Hitler type ?

Unfortunately , I think many visitors to this page, and certainly Murray himself, *would* have an issue tearing down statues of Hitler. Problem being, we don’t know because that’s not what he’s talking about in this clip.

Think about it like this: There are a very few people who's so evil their statue is embodies the spirit of Hitler. Hitler is near peak evil, at least in recent well documented human history, perhaps shaking hands with Stalin and Mao in hell. So there's very few statues that contain that of negative worth. Hitler basically represents destructive hate, the hand that sets the flame, fuels it, and spreads it as far as he can, until there is nothing left to burn. The statues that most people compare "to Hitler" are nowhere near this bad; I'd say wanting to destroy the embodiment of that spirit is a natural response too. Hitler evokes destruction; and what's the first thing to destroy when that spirit takes you? The statue of Hitler, embodiment of evil on earth. So I don't blame people for destroying Hitler's imagery and icons, his flame was so hot that it burns itself out. Good. But when it comes to other statues, there's really none that compare to the evil of Hitler because for the most part they've all been destroyed. You have to think deeper into what redeeming worth some of these statues might have and what it represents for the local culture who actually physically maintain the statue. Confederate statues aren't really worship of the confederacy for example. It's more about the spirit of rebellion in the name of what matters to you, others be damned. The fact they lost is part of what makes it humbling. Not erected in victory, but in loss, in loss of the men who went to war, fighting for the wrong cause. Are they war hero's? Yes and no, they were hero's to the people they were fighting for, and like the union soldiers they were American too. So in some sense they were a brave American army, tragically dying in a war. I'm sure I don't need to emphasize it, but brave and dying for the wrong cause. Many of them were scared of their way a life ending, like we all are, and wanting to protect their homes, even though they were built on blood. To say there is, absolutely nothing of positive quality of those men, or even monsters, would be wrong I feel. So to tear them down, to say there is as little of worth as a Hitler statue (though I know you didn't make that point directly in your comment) would be more destructive I think. You leave the descendants of those people wonder what it means, to be descendants of those who's evil flame was so hot it destroyed even their own monuments. The confederates were evil, yes, but don't assume there is that much more redemptive, or less evil in you. we are all already far closer to Nazi's then we'd like to realize, let alone the confederates. And I hope that makes my point clear: there are very few monuments worth destroying, and why Hitler is a particular exception. Of course you would have an issue with a Hitler statue. But nearly every other statue in the world? Yes; they all represent something of value, or they wouldn't have been made and maintained. Plus their impact is over stated, a statue of an "oppressive figure" isn't going to do much, it has a local impact of "as long as you can see it" and a global impact of "as long as you know about it" and modern mature people can with stand static potentially offensive visuals and knowledge. I think it's kinda insulting to our intelligence to suggest we can't be in the presence of a "bad statue" without having severe negative effects.

Id keep it up, people worshiped him at one point and it could serve as a lesson for future generations

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If there is a debate and there is a consensus (the 'left' loves consensus, correct?), then sure take names off of stuff. Though I'd counsel to be wary of tearing down statues -- they are a time machine and a history lesson....

They are historically relevant and serve as a reminder of a failed ideology and state. They are dreadful, but their meaning in modern context is important. If a statue is erected for someone who is known PRIMARILY for evil, then I am of the mind to remove it (this would be the Hitler, Stalin, or Mao example). If, however, they depict someone who attempted to do right and failed, whether due to the moral climate of the times or a lack of character at a key moment I do not believe tearing them down in an extravagant display of pearl clutching is necessary or beneficial.