The Problems with Clara 

And then she played two more characters with series 8 and series 9! /joke

John Simm had to play every role minus a few in parts of the David Tennant swan-song...Jenna playing 7-8 roles ain’t got nothin on that!

@@waz207 John Simm certainly was a strange casting for Barack Obama but I think he pulled it off well

what do you mean by that?

Well done on her but it still is a reason why her character is bad

I’ve wanted to cosplay Oswin Oswald for years.

Robot of Sherwood......

Very true

She had the coolest style, if i liked skirts i would wanna dress like her all the time omg

Agreed! Governess Clara should have been a companion!

Yes, I’m in the Victorian Clara should have been the companion (but also just ditch the impossible girl thing) camp.

Holy crap that's such a great pitch that I almost wonder if that was almost going to be the plan before, like production issues or something. Series 7 does feel like the type of media that feels messy as a result of production hell, so I wouldn't be surprised if they just straightup said that was the initial plan lol

Now that is something I would’ve much rather seen the second part of series 7 be about.

The thing is I can't even imagine there to be a budget issue with that version, because you could literally do everything in the same way, maybe have one or two more stories in Victorian London (for which they clearly already had a set!) so I really can't fathom why they didn't do that. If you really wanted to have three different Claras (although I agree that the Impossible Girl thing should have been scrapped altogether) you could have made the boring modern Clara the second splinter. If you want to go around bringing her back in Hell Bent but still like the "Doctor telling a story" vibe, you know how you could have solved that? Making the waitress!Clara another splinter (which they already set up! it was so easy to do that! why the hell not?)

THIS!

This comment needs to be pinned, near perfectly said

Agreed. Moffat is my favourite Doctor Who writer despite the harm his series arcs did to the show, but Clara might be his biggest failure.

@Najawin If he fails to get audiences to understand the character then he's failed the character, not trying to be the "your opinion is OBJECTIVELY wrong >:((((" guy bc that's always annoying, but a good chracter should be complex while still managing to be appreciated by its audiences, in one way or another

@Najawin I'd disagree, art is nothing without an audience, and I don't think it's possible for the audience to have any truly "wrong" interpretations/reactions to an artwork, generally speaking. Also the problem with Clara's character isn't that she's used as a mystery box, the problem is that the mystery box element overshadows any attempt at giving her an entertaining or memorable personality, which should always be the #1 focus imo. Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS attempts to tell the audience that she should still be a character on her own and not just a mystery box, but that's not gonna work if she just... doesn't have much personality. Again if you found her entertaining then that's completely valid and all, these are just my issues that many who also have mixed or negative thoughts on Clara might share

well i mean amy and rory lived full lives before dying

I cried. I actually skipped over her death scene shown in this clip. I still can't accept it. I have a Dalek-esque hatred towards the Timelords. Yes, Clara was reckless, but it was they who set that trap. So long as they don't undo this, I will always hold them in contempt.

Oswin's death affected me more than Clara's for sure for that very reason

But Bad Wolf became a Person and The Impossible Girl never was addressed again...

And the hybrid was just the doctor donna

I mentioned this in the live chat but honestly I've been thinking lately that there's a pretty good chance of this. She had a pretty notable run so people would be familiar with her, worked with two Doctors so if they're coming back it would make sense and Jenna isn't too busy that she couldn't make the time.

@@defrostedrobot77 I don't think Jenna would return to the show honestly, considering how badly the fandom treated her for playing a fictional character. such a shame :(

@@EmpireEmployeeRick I don't think she would let the hate get to her too much. There was still a lot of love for her out there (and she did return for Twice Upon a Time). And people could be pretty negative about Rose too but Billie returned as The Moment for Day of the Doctor. We'll just have to see what Chibs has in mind I guess.

she also is in twice upon a time as a cameo

@@Venemofthe888 yes. Let's see if she can can through that review without mentioning her 😊

That makes better sense. I didn't feel like the writer was writing her as having a flaw, though I see it as a flaw. I thought from Moffat's perspective (and the trendy attitude of the time) was that any abusive behavior from Clara is justified because she's female and that makes physical abuse OK if it's toward a male character. That's how I read it and why I stopped watching the show. I hope her verbal and physical abusive bahvior was meant as a character flaw, though considering when it came out I doubt it.

​@Mystefier moffat loves making woman smack people as a #girlboss moment. The man could not write a healthy dynamic with a woman if he tried

I mean it could have been but since the Doctor didn’t die on Trenzalore, that means that the timeline can’t end up being jumped into... even though Clara already has... Hmm... now I’m not sure if there could be fragments of Clara everywhere or not.

The last episode of Dracula was the most surreally "Look how deep and clever I am. I'm such a good writer. I love this character." things I've ever seen. It felt obnoxious and totally not self aware

This makes me glad that I never watched Dracula. Other than that, I absolutely agree. Moffat loves himself and his writing. All his Characters are the greatest, all his Stories are the best and all his Dialog is big and epic. I mean no offense towards the Guy, he IS talented, but he is very aware of that and also seems to see himself and his creations as the best of all. I hated that his Doctors had to be "President of the World" and overblown Stuff like that.

@ThePandoricaOfFandoms omg same It was such a disappointment seeing it tail spin after such a hot start

Yeah, after having already seen Doctor Who under his watch and Sherlock, I made three predictions going in to Dracula. The first episode would stunning, amazing, everything you thought you wanted from Dracula. The second episode would still have elements of that, but something would feel off. And the third episode would be downright awful. I have never made such accurate predictions before or since.

very true

The Doctor actually reflected how I felt about what happened to Clara. He pretty much hoisted the Time Lords up by their collars. I would have, too, to be honest.

I think her trying to take The Doctor's role was almost the point. I liked how it showed the darker aspects of being a companion, and it made her death extremely resonant, because it was entirely as a result of her own character flaws, and would not have happened if she had not tried to act as The Doctor. It showed clearly that The Doctor is not just about being assertive and hoping for the best. The Doctor knows the risks of what they do, and has obviously paid the price multiple times. The difference is that The Doctor can regenerate, but Clara is human and only has one chance. It was a straight case of "play stupid games, get stupid prizes", and it made it just that more tragic, because she was just trying to emulate the man who had become her hero. The issue for me was Hell Bent. Imo, The Doctor should never have truly succeeded in saving Clara. My vision of Hell Bent was literally the title. I wanted to see a dark, completely unleashed Doctor who was willing to do anything to save Clara. Think Ten's Timelord Victorious but cranked up to 11, with Peter Capaldi let loose. It should have been the explosive other side of the coin to the quiet and introspective Heaven Sent. I think The Doctor should have resorted to increasingly dark and dangerous measures to get Clara back, stooping lower and lower, until he finally comes face to face with Clara herself, extracted from the moment of her death in the way she gets brought back in the actual episode. The climax of the episode should have been Clara basically taking the role of Adelaide Brooks, telling The Doctor that what he is doing is wrong, and that she is furious at him for breaking his promise to her and trying to take revenge, basically re-teaching him the lessons he tried to teach her, and capping off the whole "Am I a good man?" theme of 12's run. A good man is not inherently good. A good man is someone who makes the difficult choice to put others above himself, and constantly checks his own behaviour. The episode should have ended with Clara just reiterating to The Doctor in that frozen moment that he was HER Doctor, and he taught her to never be cruel or cowardly... etc. and giving him one last tearful hug goodbye before going to her death again. The Doctor, having basically held Gallifrey at gunpoint, now surrenders and willingly goes back into exile on Earth, this time at Bristol University. He is still allowed his Tardis, but on one unrevealed condition. This condition would later be revealed to be that the Doctor is forced to act as the prison guard for The Master/Missy for the rest of time, with him personally electing to try rehabilitating her, against the express wishes of Gallifrey, adding some extra conflict to him starting to occasionally release her in Series 10. In my opinion, great writing focuses on characters first over plot, while still ensuring that every action in the plot has a purpose and a consequence, and bringing Clara back by cheating and making The Doctor forget her, was a disservice to the story arcs of both Clara and The Doctor. Clara lost her heroic sacrifice because she was able to indefinitely postpone it, allowing her to avoid the ultimate consequences of her actions, which undercut the climax of Face the Raven. Meanwhile The Doctor got to avoid his guilt and grief in a finale which both thematically and story-wise undercut the incredible Heaven Sent, allowing The Doctor to save Clara with no real negative consequences for his actions within the story other than the memory loss, while also giving him an easy justification for leaving Clara, for whom he just spent 2 billion years punching down a wall to save. The payoff didn't match the investment, and the lack of a satisfying ending for Clara further contributes to fan ambivalence about her character.

Clara Isa poor man's Donna. Jenna is lovely though

When it works, that new wrestler is visibly better in some way, there faster an more skilled, taller an heavyer, have more muscles an are stronger. That tell you what there about an that doesn't make them popular. That doesn't happen with clara, she's a mess of entry's an unclear about who she is. You watch the face of evil an its shown repeatedly that Leela is more aggressive an violent then Sarah Jane would ever be, Leela is defined its clear who she is.

@@SuperFunkmachine Clara was fine but trying to declare her the greatest companion ever rubbed some folks the wrong way.

They did a "tell instead of show" with her. Isn't she pretty? Isn't she clever? The Doctor is all caught up in the mystery of "the Impossible Girl" and you should be too! Yeah, she's pretty. She's actually rather smug, rather than clever, and she didn't earn the right to be smug. And I have no clue why the Doctor was so entranced by her, because Moffett didn't show us any reason for it. Maybe he just assumed all his viewers were affected "the power of boners" like he clearly was.

@@byMidnyt YES!

@The Reverse I don’t really see The Impossible Girl stuff as a fail. It was an interesting mystery and it challenged the Doctor in a new way.

@The Reverse That’s fair but (as some have pointed out) she got more than is given credit for, more than some Chibnall era characters at least.

So agree. It’s also like they wanted her to be bigger or more mysterious but it never quite gets there

Exact reason I thought Hell Bent was pretty great

Exactly! People think Hell Bent was about Clara, but it was about the Doctor. And sure, also a way to give a less gruesome exit to a companion because adult fans forget Doctor Who is a family show that is a huge part of kids' childhoods. And before the 13th Doctor, a female companion was how girls could relate to the show (at least it was that way for me). If I'd been younger when series 9 aired it'd be deeply upsetting if Face the Raven was the last I saw of Clara. But that aside, Hell Bent was about how dangerous rage and grief can make a person, especially if you have as much power as the doctor does.

I would even say Heaven Sent wouldn't have made sense if he did accept her death. Choosing to spend what feels like eternity in a prison/torture device isn't what you would do if you had accepted someone's death. It wouldn't have made sense if he finally got out and it turned out he did all that for no good reason and really could have confessed at any time without any consequence. But he didn't confess because 1. he begrudged those who caused her death, knowlingly or not and 2. he wanted her back Both of those are not signs of someone who has accepted someone's death. Why they decided to have the much expected return of Gallifrey as a side plot though, I really don't know.

The problem in my opinion werent the parts you described but what came after. That The Doctor basically sucseeded with resurecting Clara, that Clara got her own faulty TARDIS and her own companion (and with that invalidated Face the Raven) and that The Doctor couldn't learn enything out of it about himself and his Am-I-a-good-man arc because he lost his memory of her. It would have been better if at one point Clara finalised her I'm-like-the-Doctor arc with her standing her ground against him, telling him why he is wrong and then going back to the Time Lords to be send back to the point of her death.

You put more thought into this than Moffuck. XD

I agree. While there are some writing problems, such as how others react to Clara, I do think she has a consistent personality. disagree with some of her actions, I do think she's a good character and her arc is more clever than many give it credit for. Plus, sidenote, while Moffat probably did fall in love with her, I think Davies fell in love with Rose to an annoying extent that hurt the dynamic of Ten and Martha. Let's not pretend that Rose was perfect or not divisive lol

It's been pointed out that Clara and River share more than a few similarities, and as someone who likes River but not Clara the difference was the dosage. River, as an occasional presence, never had to carry a full series or be the core relationship for the Doctor. Though, I'd say it's fair if these traits don't work for you regardless of how often it comes up.

@@CouncilofGeeks This and it feels more plausible with River. We only see so much of her time with the Doctor and it makes a level of sense the Doctor is prepping River for future interactions. That is just my take. I understand the issues with both.

I just feel like that's how Moffat writes women in general? I think his thought process is "we can't make her the damsel in distress, because it's unfeminist ... so let's make her ridiculously smart, bossy and sexy" Like Amy, River and Clara all have the same character traits but in different dosages. Both Amy and Clara have a girly, princessy energy at the start, both River and Clara are made out to be extremely intelligent, all three of them undermine the men in their lives (Amy and River even hit Rory and the Doctor respectively). And all three are weirdly sexual? Amy works as a kissagram, tries to shag the Doctor and has a moment where she looks at her clone and finds herself hot. Okay, that's part of her personality, that's fine. River is constantly making innuendos and drugging people by kissing them. Okay, she's Amy's daughter and has that whole femme fatale thing going on. Dalek!Clara is constantly flirting, Governess!Clara flirts and makes out with the Doctor and Modern!Clara ALSO has a moment where she looks at her clone and finds herself hot. Also fine on its own, but for this to be the one thing that all three characters (and also Missy and Reinette) have in common? This was becoming majorly uncomfortable and I'm glad that he didn't go the same route with Bill.

Very well said.

It almost worked, going into 'Last Christmas' with the suggestion that even decades later Clara still regretted her mistreating Danny and still wished she could be with him. It just backfires in the sense of the poorly done 'twist ending', only done because Jenna Coleman decided at the very last minute to stay on for Series 9. 'Last Christmas' is an ok episode, but as a departure episode for the character it works a hell of a lot better than 'Hell Bent'.

I think the issues with Moffat (as a writer specifically. He has some weird issues with writing women I don't want to get into right now) are that he gets in his own head. If you give him some restraints, some rules, he can work in those and give you a banging story. But when he has total control he probably over thinks and keeps adding extra things to every story point to make it more "clever" or "deep" (in his head) So you end up with weirdly convoluted plots where you don't really understand why anything happened even though it feels like thought was put into it (Season 9. The end of Sherlock. Dracula.)

@@jordon2074 that’s a very good way of putting it.

Finally! Normal comment that doesn't support 12th and Clara's toxic relationship. I think Moffat broke Clara as a character. If you compare her in season 7 and 8, these are completely two different Clara. I don't understand why ppl don't see it and why ppl like s8 or s9. I still hate when 12th and Clara just have always conflict, screaming and just not talk to each other. This is so wrong. This has never happened before between 11th and Clara. Clara knew about his regeneration, and when they rescued Gallifrey, she accepted his faces. She accepted his faces even earlier when she was in his own time stream. She just was like travel with him and be his companion. She knew their roles. She didn't want to be the Doctor. And I think she never wanted to be. I really love relationships 11th Doctor and Clara. It's was... just good, like he finally have friend who KNEW him. No secrets. They was close, it's was good... but nothing not for ever, huh?

This is how I felt about it too. To me Clara was fine in s7 and then got super obnoxious in the later seasons.

yeah that was refreshing

Actually she had the very best writing Doctor Who has had to offer.

@@euler4273 "the very best writing" hmmm very debatable

@@wrenpen She had by far the best characterisation; we know about her goals and aspirations, her dreams and plans, all of her abilities, which ones she tries to improve, and which she didn't. She has so many character strengths but also weaknesses. She has great victories, but also great failures. She doesn't always get it right, but she always learns from her mistakes, and gets better as a consequence. She has the most three dimensional, relatable character. Then there is her character development, which is also by far the best, consistent, continuously developed. She changes gradually over time, to ultimately undergo an absolutely incredible and inspiring development. She gives numerous fantastic speeches, and has countless standout character moments. Yes, her writing is very clearly the very best.

I didn't say that's impossible. It just means that of the two options available (the script needed a last minute re-work or suffered for it vs. Moffat just wrote a really really terrible ending to the script and thought it was fine), it leaves Moffat in a worse light.

I imagine that if it would have been done that scene could have been beautiful.

i actually love that so much but it would've been so sad 🥺

It's not just you. Hell Bent's ending for Clara, and Hell Bent in general, was awful (though, granted, Hell Bent is mediocre to me).

That’s a great idea, puts all the best pieces together, fixing the faults of the 7B arc!

@@matthewbuckley66 do you think it may have also been the whole 7B crap that contributed to not getting to know Clara? I mean by the end of season 6 we had basically said goodbye to the Ponds twice, did we really need a third time?

This is how I feel about it too

Yes. This exactly. After the Snowmen I assumed that was what was going to happen. Would have given Jenna brilliant opportunities to act, and driven the Doctor to despair as he began to realise that every time it happened she would die and that there was nothing he could do to save her: until of course, he found the “core Clara” the one who began it all.

@@stevetayler9518 plus, Moffat could’ve made her any character, she didn’t have to be an audience surrogate because we were introduced to her through the Doctor. She could have been anyone, but Moffat just had to go with the template.

I don’t think he did. Clara entered the doctor’s entire time stream. It’s entirely possible that they could bring some version of Clara back for every future Doctor. IMHO

That would be absolutely awful no disrespect, there would have been no character development or growth in her and the Doctor’s relationship and it would have gotten old veeeery quickly to see the companion die every episode

@@nicolas-pk would be a lot interesting than what we got.

Funny you mention Amy and Rory as they was meant to leave there until Karen/Arthur asked to stay on another year. Jenna didn't ask to stay on for series 9, Moffat has said in many live interviews that he and peter asked her back for series 9, she simply accepted. Its such an odd and convoluted story haha :)

EXACTLY!!!

@Najawin I was wondering when you would get here... how does it feel to be recognised, 19:23? I want it on record that I mentioned releasing this video was a bad idea

@Najawin "She was literally created as a subversion of treating characters as plot devices." Do you have anything to support this statement?

@Najawin Maybe she wasn't talking about just you. She also mentioned other things like things Moffat said or other readings. Bit disingenuous of you not to regard that :)

@Najawin Just saying the headcanon point wasn't about you, don't know why you thought it was

She went through the Doctors timestream, but it was the timestream of the Doctor that died on Trenzalore. History was changed when the Time Lords granted the Doctor more regenerations at the end of that story, which is why Clara only ever sees eleven faces in Name of the Doctor (and then sees the War Doctor shortly afterwards). So for every Doctor that comes after 11, that timestream that Clara jumped into doesn't exist

classic era had the 3rd doctor exiled to Earth for three seasons, you would think this would be boring, it wasnt. Thirds run was considered the beginning of the golden age of classic era who. They were stuck on earth, but they still had adventures, and the hilarity of the doctor TRYING to get his TARDIS going, his first companion was a lady scientist, in her human way, every bit as smart as he was, and the UNIT crew. But Clara, some how, between seasons went from c a girl with no real purpose, to a HIGH SCHOOL ENGLISH TEACHER now unless the British system is different to any other, teaching is a MINIMUM three year course, high school is three years of your particular subject, plus a year for your teaching certificate. A minimum of 5 years, did we have ANY hint there was a 5 year gap between series? Or just giving her something to do to be interesting?

@@TheGeoXWar They give her a tardis, make her immortal and then let her show off that she knows more then the Doctor.

I cried watching Face the Raven. I still can't bear to rewatch it. I never cried watch a series as an adult, and never cried since. I was on the edge of my seat watching the Cry. I really didn't want to see her die on screen again.

Michael Burnham haters come to mind.

@@MovieMagic515 I'd take Clara over Michael. Her intrusions into the Trek canon feel more egregious than whatever went down with Clara (at least there you can say the Doctor influenced her to do or say some stuff).

@@defrostedrobot77 No Michael is a good character.

@@MovieMagic515 imma say no personally. Even just as an example the payoff at the end of the latest season was not earned.

@@defrostedrobot77 They were clearly setting her up as Captain. I prefer Saru but fair enough.

As much as I like the idea, even in cases like this, the Doctor would never travel with a Dalek. Even in stories in books/comics whenever they have to work together the Doctor is always uneasy about it.

but she didn't stay dead. so she didn't really face the consequences. just got a bit of a smack on the wrist.

@@byMidnyt Plus she got a cool time machine so she could go off and have her own adventures for as long as she wanted.

@@byMidnyt well she faces her consequences... then The Doctor ripped her out of that second of time and made it meaningless.

she's phenomenal in those shows! also she's amazing in 'the cry' :)

@@EmpireEmployeeRick Yes, that one too.

clara really was fun and adorable 🥺 jenna did a great job at portraying her 🥰

Series 11 most likely... 12, I'm not sure yet. I'll make that call when I get to it.

Why would anyone want to cause themselves brain damage by watching those dumpster fires?

@@ShojoBakunyu I think Series 11 would be better characterized as the opposite of a dumpster fire. It was too bland to be notable at all, although it had some good episodes like Demons of the Punjab (although the aliens are clearly based off Twice Upon a Time). As for Series 12, it did have quite good episodes. Yes, the Timeless Children was a sour note to end on for most of the fandom (although we have yet to see how the storyline plays out), but there were some very outstanding episodes as well (Spyfall, Nikola Tesla's Night of Terror, Can You Hear Me?, etc.). They aren't the best, but they're not quite so bad as people make them out to be.

Well there is kinda an expectation that comments will be read right? I assume the ones that address Nathaniel directly would be ones intended to be read. Oh and btw welcome to the Cult of Geeks. Yeah someone took issue with the complaint about essays and compared it to a cult.

@@Ben-vf5gk - no wayyyy. I was literally about to make a joke calling the channel 'Autocracy of Geeks' but couldn't find the person complaining. Only joking, obviously. Wish I'd said it now, the irony is too much.

@@Ben-vf5gk - I did once describe Nathaniel as a charismatic, enigmatic cult leader. Hey wait, I'm not the only one who dons a scarlet robe every premiere, right?

@@nightowl8477 Do you have the animal sacrifice ready? We need to find a goat, decorate in Vera's merch and then slay it in front of our keyboards :)

@@Ben-vf5gk - what's this potential-future tense about, this is me every Saturday