What would missile air defence system would you want protecting your air space? Let me know what and why! Also do you think this missile is truly 'unjammable'? Let me know 🙂
A range of several different systems to cover short, medium and long distance. Sadly though knowing the UK MOD, they will cheap out and only buy one poor system that don't work.
The interesting part is that suddenly everyone starts to realize what the Swedish weapon industry is capable of. Like it's a big surprise. Rbs-70 was developed in the early 1970-ish and enterd service in 1977. It's been regularly upgraded, will be more upgraded in the near future and is extremely capable. Aircraft, vehicles, ships whatever. Send a rbs70 and watch your problem disappear.
What is this weapon good for? Its range is not high enough for a stand off air defense, its target aquisition time is glacially slow for a short reaction shot (so you pretty much have to aquire any target at max range of sensor and be ready, quick reaction shots no way), its bulky and weighs 120 kg plus extra missiles, it missile costs 10x more than a stinger its base launcher cost over 3 million, you require highly trained operators, you cant easily get this into a trench or a dugout. In the end you put this on a fragmentation protected vehicle and become a massive drone magnet...using this in the open in a treeline? lol reality check needed. Just look at Ukraine what happens if you sit out in the open ANYWHERE, you are basically dead already..even in a trench its game over if FPVs come in. This thing will not get a fpv drone with a clutch shot cuz it takes forever to lock on...and if you do .. the 2nd or 3rd one will get you cuz you are out of ammo. $500 to kill 3.5 mill system. Btw LASER sounds good until you realize you need Line of Sight for it and no terrain obstructions.
@@TheInfidel_SlavaUA I'm far from an expert, but here's my take at your questions: 1. Aquisition time. Shouldn't differ from any other stand-alone systems. The team can get information about approaching enemy aircraft from other sources and then be searching in the right direction. 2. Heavy and bulky. Compared to actual MANPADs, I agree, that's not the intended use. It's significantly lighter and more portable than competing systems. 3. Costs. Compared to competing systems (not MANPADs) these aren't that expensive, and even compared to Stingers the difference is less if you take into consideration the number of missiles required to score a hit. (I am aware that a missile only has to be threatening enough to cause the pilot to evade it instead of attacking his intended target to be successful. Drones that don't disengage must be shot down.) The big savings are in (mostly peacetime) training, where you essentially never need to fire a full scale missile. 4. Require highly trained operators. Require more training than an AT-4, but it *is* designed for use by conscripts that only get a few months of low intensity education and training on the system. I bet many other SAM systems are far more complicated to handle. 5. Deployment/protection. Not much different than most other SAM systems, with the difference that thanks to its portability this system can be set up at locations where ground vehicles can't go and therefore the enemy is less likely to look for it. As you say: "Just look at Ukraine...". The Ukrainians want *more* of these, because they do work!
Entered service in 1977, exited service in the 2000s. The idea was that it would be replaced by more modern systems, but those were never bought in any significant numbers, and brought back in service recently to fill that gap. The thinking was probably that it was useless against modern fixed wing threats, which it is, but that's not the role it's intended for today but rather helicopter defense and deterrence.
- I think that this system will not find a place on the battlefields - The reason, in my opinion, is that it is too heavy to be a shoulder-mounted air defense system, and it lacks mobility, the ability to move, and speed in shooting. If it is used as a vehicle-mounted air defense system, it is considered somewhat short-lived
Nice to see that most of the presentation videos are from Czech Army. RBS 70 is one of the systems which show clear advantages against other systems reviewed for Czech Army requirements. Generally, Swedish systems in Czech Army have great reputation for being extremely reliable. Could be related to Swedish conscript based military doctrine where systems must be build that minimum training is required to operate it effectively.
Bofors was bought by United Defence Industries, who in turn were bought by BAE. The tubed artillery interests like Archer are owned by BAE. While some of the missile interests are owned by Saab.
"Relatively recently?" BAE bought UDI and and thereby Bofors 24 years ago lol. Ironically enough Bofors founded SAAB, in the 1930s. Now both are owned by the same company, neither of which is really SAAB nor Bofors.
@@TzunSu SAAB bought Bofors in 2000 and sold the gun/artillery part to UDI, but SAAB kept the missile part of Bofors which is now called SAAB dynamics. And BAE had sold of its final stake in SAAB in 2010 leaving Swedish holding company Investor AB as the biggest shareholder.
Some + and - of RBS70. + Unjammable, unless you have a way to blind the operator. + Smokeless. For example Stinker (Stinger missile) leaves a trail of smoke behind. But RBS doesn't. Targets would not understand what hit them and from where. + Options for direct hit or proximity fuse, and some other gadgets. - Bulky. Needs 3 man to carry and operate it. - Difficult to master, takes a lot of training. When you can train a manpad guy in several weeks, RBS takes months. - The missile control laser alerts fighter plane pilots.
And lights up on IR drone cameras, just asking to be shot at... It whoud be beter whit larger missile and stronger laser on a wheicle, shoot and scoot.
@@Perisa79 you are mistaking it with a radar guided missiles like AIM-120 that has home on jam capabilities. This one is optically guided, optical EW almost nonexistent.
In wartime the training is usually cut down drastically. Pretty sure the ukrainians only get to train with a stinger for a day before they are handed one. You only need 2-3 days to learn the RBS-70, it's a pretty easy system. You train in simulators for most of the time. Then hands on training with assembly of the unit.
You more than hold your own as a blogger/commentator - you thread the line rather nicely for a reservist worrying about the SOPs/perceptions! Kudos lad. Be well and stay safe
The purpose of a nations' defense is to prevent the potential attacker from attacking in the first place. And according to that metric; the Swedish defense industry has a 100% success rate.
@@readhistory2023 I take it that your tagname is satirical. Just as flatearthers state; "do your own research"? Though I do wonder at times if they are not unintentionally satirical. Having taken up arms against the early "reich", would have been a self sacrifies with no positive effect. Quite the contrary. Had Sweden been invaded, Germany would have had full access to the iron ore of the north. As it were handled, the supply could be cut at the most effectful time. Taking up arms against the withering "reich" later, would have been just as distasteful as valor theft. Denying ore to the Nazis, and supplying intelligence to the Allies, were necessary for the right outcome, but still bending the terms of neutrality. There are more ways to fight than with a weapon in hand. Ask Gandi. (Perhaps not about _actual_ sleeping partners though.) "Winning a war is one thing. Winning a peace another. That usually requires the help of a third neutral part." Which is why Sweden joining NATO, however necessary to show closed ranks against Putin, (not Russia), have shifted the balance towards war, not away from it. There are now no sane people that all involved parties will listen to reasoning from. Hmm, this sounds a bit familiar... have Sweden now done against Putin, what you wanted Sweden to have done against Hitler and his murderous following? I guess we will see.
Against lighlty armored vechiles that missile has that shaped charge warhead instead of just proxy fuse and explosives to spread those tungsten pellets around a tarkget.
@@errornamenotfound2513 I think he meant the RBS 70NG's BOLIDE missile which has just that, a shaped charge warhead to be armor piercing if needed, there's even a part in the current video showing it but matsimus is talking over it at 6:05
@@Abjor I mean it was really confusing as he said "that missile has shaped charge warhead instead of proxy fuse" which is weird as it RBS70 has both shape charge and proximity fuse
I like the RBS 70, though I prefer it in its vehicle-mounted configuration. As for my favorite air defense system, it's probably the Piorun as it's the best true MANPADS available on the market currently. All the other shoulder-launched systems are either obsolete, like the Stinger, or a heavy and rather bulky adaptation of a tripod mounted system (some people call them CREWPADS, I like that name), like shoulder-launched versions of the Sungur or Starstreak. Whereas with the Piorun you get 6.5 km of range and a very flare-resistant seeker in a small package that can be mounted on vehicles but also carried and used effectively by a single soldier.
@@unrealassasinationNo, the Gepard ammo doesn't have proximity fuses, the HEI rounds have impact fuses and a safety timer to self-destruct if they miss.
Canadian troops are stationed in Latvia as a part of Enhanced Forward Presence Battle Group. And Latvia does have RBS 70 missiles in it's arsenal, which might be a coincidence. XD I'm a civilian, but I've been I RBS 70 operators seat once - back in 2015, when Latvian army had one of those regular.. conventions (?) demonstrating the equipment they have. Had "Stingers" too, but gave all of their stock to Ukraine in 2022, maybe by now the arsenal is somewhat replenished, I don't know.
Seems like my country(Sweden) might be getting Saabs "new" system, the vehicle mounted shorad version of this in addition to the MANPAD that is in the inventory now, would be mounted on BV 410, at least according to the FMVs(Defence material administration) recent news article. I don't really have a favorite, because I don't know enough about this, but it seems like IRIS-T has performed well in Ukraine, Sweden got the short range IrIS-T SAM, also mounted on BVs, but I wouldn't mind seeing the SLM(or long-range?) in our Armed Forces, the missiles are a lot more affordable than e.g Patriot(Patriot got longer range though, I know), so it would be a much more sustainable way to defend against mass missile attacks like those Ukraine face. For the mass attacks from moped drones(Shaheds or whatever they are called) one would probably want a reliable anti-aircraft gun for kenetic defense(EW systems might work to, or a combination)because it makes sense economically, like naval guns or autocannons but vehicle mounted for mobility, e.g the CV90 SPAAG we have some of already.
Last I heard, our "Air Defense" in Canada consisted of a C6 GMPG pointed upwards. Not sure how true that is, but I heard it from some Service members. 😅
We here in Sweden have had a strong motivator to develop cost effective solution to the Russian problem, this is a classic weapon with its origin in the Cold War arms race. Saab has as alway refined and perfected it over time adding modern technology when it has come available. All most the RBS systems (RBS 17, 70 and soon 15) is now actively used in Ukraine doing what they were designed to do, namely repel Russians. The 70 in particular has proven most effective against the Kamov Ka-50. The system is also multi-capable (yes, you can use it against MBT as well) the for a round is about $100,000 compared to $176,000 for a FGM-148 Javelin. I don't think that's too bad for a country with 10 million inhabitants.
seems like a good high tech solution for us but i still would like to see the polish stinger in the inventory on mass as well. Its small enough to be a standard loadout weapon in lavs and other scout level groups that have access to carl g's and alike
Unfortunate about ADATs inclement weather performance - it had so much promise. I think we should adopt the Oerlikon skynex system for SRAD considering drone lessons from Ukraine
The cheapest most effective system is always the best. To sophisticated = too expensive, too simple = not effective. It depends on what you want to countermeasure.
I was trained on it, back in the days in Sweden. First of you, back then at least, needed Freon to cool the sight. And we needed a lot of batteries. Maybe they have managed to get away with that? Secondly there was lots of electronics, among which was a thick cable running to the data unit, which we managed to run over several times. If that cable was damaged, nothing worked. But we were also connected to "the Giraffe" radar system. Now, the RBS70 seems to be sold as a stand alone system, is that correct? What I am trying to say is that back then the system was quite fragile and needed a lot of stuff to work. .
Thales Martlet shoulder launched anti air missile has been used successfully in Ukraine for over a year. Uses the same guidance as RBS but can be shoulder fired, tripod mounted or fired from the Stormed vehicle.
Problem with RBS is it isn't fire & forget & pretty much requires a stationary platform, at least a stand. Also, if there is low visibility, your SOL. Clouds, dense fog, etc.
Man I really wish we Canadians would develop our own missile systems. We litterally have our neighbour America, that can help out. It would be way better for our economy if we did that aswell. It would be a fun project for Universities like SFU and UBC to engage in and stuff.
I'm also a big fan of Stingers, though I like them in the Avenger turret system, I believe that setup is very capable and while I know it's not technically an anti-air system, I really like the Javelin system, as well I think an upgraded version with extended range and more anti-air capability would be very useful!
I did my military service on rbs70 and would love to try the NG system. The old system was daylight only, bad weather = stay in the tent and sleep it out. It was great at defending our dispersed airbases and along planned convoy routes where groups could leap frog along the route.
Polish GROM/PIORUN . Due to clever algorithm programming it will ignore any flares and head straight for aircraft or helicopter. Only defence for target is to pr-flare before being shot at. And that could be difficult if not impossible to do.
I remember my time in the Marines in North Carolina. It was a Saturday, and I was going to the beach on base to do some surfing. When I got there, the beach was closed and said they were doing weapons testing. They had a quad running up and down the shoreline, picking up UAV debris. Not long hear the distinct missile sound streaking across the sky and hitting another UAV. the stinger is just so cool, lol.
In the Brazilian Army we do use the RBS-70. I had the oportunit to test its simulator a few times when I visited some anti air artillery batteries. And I have to say, it's hard to hit the target on your first try. But after some pratice, I was able to propelly hit some targets. My regards Matsimus (From another artillery man)
Nice review! Saab makes excellent products! I wonder with the advent of swarming drones if someone is designing a small emp man pad to knock out a swarm.
TBF it is essentially unjammable in the sense of disruption by other controlled transmitters. However, I wonder if you could create some kind of special smoke or particulates to protect the target. For instance, if you disperse some kind of microprisms in the air that deflect the laser beam substantially in a consistent direction you could send it off target. (I mean any highly refractive substance will deflect the beam but you need to be able to do that to a substantial degree with a low concentration of particulates)
It's a beam rider, so you need to get the particles between the missile and the operator. The sensors reading the laser beam is at the back of the missile.
Just watched a video of another Ukrainian knocking down a cruise missile with a stinger. Also a M2 50 knocking one down too. The Ukrainians are quite resourceful.
It was a good system but Canada was the only serious user and it never got any further investment or upgrades which is so typical of our government and Defence Procurement policies.
I'm sure this is a very good system for all the reasons you stated but I just like the Gepard system. It could be upgraded so easily to add a couple missiles for highspeed aircraft but I think nothing would be better taking on a drone swarm. It could be setup for dual ammo to take on IFVs and ground targets. Nothing like being able to get out of the weather when having to stay at a location like guarding a power station. The radar could link with others to augment the 'Big Picture'. They can change stations quickly on multiple terrains, etc. Eventually, guns will be replaced with energy weapons and I don't understand why we don't see them being tested in Ukraine right now.
UK Starstreak manpads also Have unjammable laser guidance, and are fitted to American helicopters for air defence. These are mach 3+ capable. There is also a cheaper Martlet manpad fired from same system. Martlet also good for air to ground for moving targets
What i would love to see is the Stinger replacement. A more modern and most importantly more affordable anti air missile produced for all Nato countries in such massive numbers that supply is secure and low cost due to economy of scale is plausible.
My favorite anti-aircraft missile system is the SM/Standard-Missile series! By far the most capable and versatile missile system(with AEGIS guidance of course..!) that has protected literally the most valuable vessels the world has ever seen, and done so without fail its entire 40+ year career..! Not only does it shoot down any air breathing aircraft that's coming its way, it can shoot down drones and not only tactical ballistic missiles, but intercontinental ballistic missiles with certain variants as well! Not to mention SM-6 can shoot at ships as well! As for the stinger, US Army and Marine corps are officially beginning of competition for the replacement. It was under the M-SHORAD Inc.3, but is now officially a next gen MANPADS competition...
I guess the Canadian military is going to be getting new 5-ton trucks from Mercedes-Benz defense in the Mercedes G Wagon is supposed to be replaced sometime in the next few years I think there's a deal with GM defense on that one
The main problem with this system is that it is not very portable, and you have to hold your target in your sight for the entire flight time, so you can not shoot and scoot. About 30 sek. to deploy and then a few extra seconds to track a target is not good if you have to do it in the field. A plane, missile and some drones can move pretty far in that time. It could work very well protecting stationary targets like buildings and field camps.
Mine would the the Stormer HVM as it's the most unique SPAA in the world. Its pretty common nowadays to have SAMs that is IR,RADAR or even SACLOS Guided with proximity fuse, but have you even heard about a SAM that fires 3 Armor piercing high explosive darts to kill air and ground targets?
My favorite AA-gun is the one that the Americans had during the Vietnam War that kept locking onto latrines. Hell of a gun; wish they were still in service.
Can it hit a small drone? This particular platform took at least a decade from concept to implementation and UAV drones are the future of air dominance. Just saying artillery will always be the king of battle ❤
Drones are eyes for that artillery. And there is a need to hunt down the enemy's drones of that reason. I suppose that interceptor drones are in the works or already exist. Something cheap, preferably reusable, to hunt the enemy's drones.
It can hit drones, but it's probably not the solution when it comes to all these cheap mass produced ones, it would be too expensive, but against e.g ISR drones, that is larger, more expensive drones that can be on station over a battlefield for hours upon hours it would be fine, seen videos from Ukraine(47th Brigade) shoot down such drones with it.
@@Alex-oc2vi For cheat drone hunting we could perhaps use armed interceptor drones. Not drones that make a suicide attack on the enemy but drones that actually shoot down, or bomb then enemy drone. I suppose that dropping wires on their rotors also work.
Just nice to see Defence contracts going out that aren't being tailored to benefit Quebecois politicians in some way shape or form like they did in the '80's. ADATS sadly was a product of this and the CF-18's.
Manpads are the best ground-to-air superiority solution. You don't need mechanics, oil, fuel - all you need is to produce the System and the Missile and to train 3 men/women in order to operate/handling/maintaining them. With every other solution, you need massive amounts of material and lots of people in order to operate/maintain them. I bet you can strap the parts onto 3 cargobikes and go fast to where ever needed.
They usally have these set up att events around the country when they are promoting the swedish army. When we were in like 5th grade or soemthing we had field trip to KA 2 and we got to sit and aim with it :D Also they had a small air show for us. That would probably not happen today hehe
What has been amply demonstrated by the conflict in Ukraine, is that having short-range AA gun systems is really a must. The rapid deployment and cost-effective/per engagement utilisation of these vehicle-mounted systems relative to SRAAM is evident. Both are relevant and are by and large complementary, however, when systems as old as the Guepard are currently availing themselves quite honourably in their role as area denial systems (they also have the anti-armour capability), it should rekindle interest in these types of integrated platforms. Of course the pleiade of varying configurations, from stand alone guns to hybrid gun and missile platforms, tracked/wheeled is impressive but, with the Liberals in power do not expect any real progress/spending in the near future, The Trudeau Gov't is not trustworthy where Defence & Security of the nation is concerned. Political correctness and gender equality are more apt to generate a positive photo op or positive spin!
Huh funny how we went from the Javelin back to another SACLOS system. Wonder what the reasons were to take a line of sight system over a F&F system like the Stinger/Mistral. If I were to guess it would be unit costs being lower on SACLOS vs Infared.
I know that much of the press coverage of Ukraine’s air defense has been about the Patriot system. My question is about another system the Ukraine was given and that is the older HAWK air defense missile system. I did hear that Spain provided several batteries but I have not heard that it has even been used
@@michaelpettersson6028 Hmm, I wanna recall reading an article a few years ago about Sweden acquiring Patriots. (after some digging around) _"Sweden becomes first non-NATO partner with Patriot"_ - army,mil (website) November 23, 2021 So, I guess you're using both HAWK and Patriot now🤔?
Suddenly beam riders are interesting again? Holy Moly! We had the most capable systems in NATO (Roland, ADATS, Crotale, Rapier) but because either they were old or expensive lots of them were scrapped. And now RBS70 is some magic missile? :D
The #1 problem for Ukraine at the front lines is huge glide bombs launched from 30-40km away at high altitude. Sadly, this missile does not help; the Su-34's are too far away at launch and the glide bombs have no heat signature. This is the problem faced by NATO in the future.
LAV-AD rules against aircraft, light armor, infantry, and whatever building needs ventilated/gone. You could make an argument for the Gepard(now Ozelot) or Tunguska, but there's nothing quite like a rotary cannon!
@@matteusvirtanen392 I know, but look in Ukraine how many drones Gepards pluck out of the sky like a flycatcher. Our (Netherlands) army used to have 99 of those and when I served (infantry) I once had the opportunity to see them in action against practice targets towed by F-104 Starfighters, together with the good old 40L70. Not quite the range but good heavens, bloody awesome!
@@Pincer88Gepard and the newer skynex are definitely great equipment but they also require a whole lot more logistics than MANPADS like RBS-70 or stinger. If you have a Gepard and you want to counter drones you will need a warehouse full of 35mm ammunition and a couple of trucks to move them around and so on whereas an RBS-70 just requires like two guys and a pickup truck. Both are great though.
@@matteusvirtanen392 You have a point. Logistics wise it's a challenge. The more so, because the Leopard 1undercarriage isn't exactly brand new anymore as well. On the other hand, if your air defences are saturated with entire swarms of cheap drones, a few burst of 35mm AHEAD shells are a lot cheaper than an RBS.70/Mistral/Stinger or what other MANPADS there are out there. Besides that, Gepard is highly mobile and can keep up with armored formations on the move in rough terrain, while MANPADS in general have to be set up more or less in a static position. Ideally I'd say you need both kinds of systems for VSHORADS to complement each other. Especially since drone swarms and saturation attacks by cruise missiles or loitering munitions are most likely one of the most urgent threats on the battlefield. I do hope however, that a new kind of weapon will become available - EMP or a missile with a wide diameter blast fragmentation/thermobaric effect to take out tens of drones in one fell swoop. Either way, normally I really enjoyed these kind of technicalities just as an enthusiast, but with war now much more likely coming our way again, it's not a matter of hypothetics anymore. Am I correct to summise from your last name that you ar Finnish and live next door to Russia? In that case, you probably feel the urgency even more, considering the not so recent past with the USSR. (Glad though that our Fokker D.21's were in great hands with the Ilvamoivat by the way!) Should the proverbial sh@t hit the fan again, I wish all of you and us all the Sisu we can muster, perkele!
It seems countries are waiting for Sweden to join NATO in order to buy from them. Supporting the weapon industry of an ally maybe ? And I wonder how the laser beam rider will work in fog or bad weather.
Just a li'l heads up. (hope you don't mind): "Sweden has been a member of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) since 7 March 2024" - Wikipedia
I am not sure a 'deploy' time of 30 sec is much of an advantage, we are seeing aircraft come and go in less than 5 seconds in UA. What I want to see is 'loiter time' (how long can it remained powered up and looking for targets) & how long from powered down to target acquisition? PS Stinger is the OG :)
@@dnservice You make the assumption that you can see the object at 9km. The range of the weapon is maximum 9km, not always 9km. The range of the RBS is only as far as you can see the target, up to 9km. 9km is irrelevant when the target is travelling just above tree tops and passed by you in a few seconds disheartening over the next tree line.
It can be on standby 24/7, if the batteries run low you just replace them, it takes about 30 seconds. It doesn't use any power unless activated, and it takes about 1 second from activation until ready to fire.
My two cents...this system would be a strain on foot soldiers and limit the circle of coverage provided. I would like to see the marriage of this system with an electric quasi-AI driven mule type vehicle to reduce the strain on humans and allow for a larger load out.
