Next you're going to say that random new guy in the Kingsguard, uh....Bob Muscles or whatever his name is, is actually like the reanimated corpse of Gregor Clegane or something.
I just reread the Watcher chapter and honestly it made me appreciate the Sand Snakes a lot more. They're all set up to have super interesting roles in Winds, each heading in unique direction.
@LDW12887 The fact that you think anything said above is an attempt to sound smart is hilarious, and shows how extremely limited your capacity to think is.
The gruff warrior who wants to start a war in the land of her enemy's ally. The sultry schemer who wishes poisons key people and use the chaos. The quiet erudite schemer who wants to make a push for Myrcella to supplant Tommen. The compassionate woman who mourns her lover and father of her children, but doesn't want to perpetuate another cycle of revenge. Why have these four interesting characters with different perspectives, when you can make all four the same brutish cow in substance and just keep the names? -D&D, probably.
really hated how the show destroyed the dorne and iron island story arcs. thanks for laying out each one of the sand snakes abilities and skills, you a goat fantasy haven
Thats why I disagree with people who say the show started sucking when they ran out of books. No. They had material and chose to ignore it, or twisted it into a drastically oversimplified version of itself so they wouldn’t have to think too hard when writing future scenes.
@@sarahchicago People who keep saying the show ran out of material have simply never read the books or even got informed on them, they simply heard someone say that phrase and now everyone repeats it.
It still pisses me off that they wrote Ellaria Sand's character as a direct opposite of everything she is in the books, most of all because we were robbed of seeing Indira Varma perform her beautiful speech about the futility of vengeance, how it won't bring back Oberyn, how the Mountain's skull won't hold her at night... It's some of George's best writing that most fully embodies his themes, and just like the "Broken Man" speech, it got tossed aside. Go figure.
This 100% is part of how the showrunners ruined the source material, they willingly choose to butcher some of the best book moments for no reason. Like Oberyn literally ruled the season he was in, and the books gave several more complex and interesting characters that had so much to give. And they decided to give us the "bad pussy"
@@Ashbrash1998I'm sorry, but that substandard feline crap just made me and my cat so mad! They had Indira Varma *AND* Alexander Siddig to work with and they couldn't write anything more interesting for them but fake "girl power", pointless murder, and substandard felines? This was why I stopped watching.
Haven managed to pronounce "Myrcella" differently every time he said it over the course of 13min 🙃 I love book-Ellaria, one of the absolute best minor characters, an absolute distillation of one of GRRM's core themes of the series. "I saw your father die. Here is his killer. Can I take a skull to bed with me, to give me comfort in the night? Will it make me laugh, write me songs, care for me when I am old and sick?". It's all right there in the text, and yet the majority of the audience (book and show) still seems to take the view that ASOIAF is about "winning the game of thrones". I'll go finish my 8th grade book report now.
Indeed. Winning the Game leads to nothing but endless pain and anxiety, as you grapple with the endless plots and schemes against you, that's what the Iron Throne is all about. The only way to truly win is not to play.
@@fantasyhaven1 Or, take the Roy Dotrice approach (bless him) and just go nuts. San-sha Stark. Jeffery Baratheon. Lord Pa-tyre. Oh, Pa-tyre, my precious, my precious, PA-TYYYYRRRREEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! InDeepGeek gets in there too with Vai-Serris.
Would be cool, but then it's a question of where Tyene's blond hair came from, as Lemore has Dark Hair as well. Grandparents maybe, but we'll see if there's time for that. I actually like the idea of Lemore being a true septa attatched to Elia's court when she married Rhaegar, and doesn't need a secret identity because all the lords paid no heed to a mere septa, and much like JonCon wanting to crown Rhaegar's son, she wants to crown Elia's son.
@@RmsOceanic I'm going to handwave genetics away because genes can be wacky: in real life, would Ned Stark father 4 redheads and only 1 dark-haired child?
The show too the idea of strong warrior woman archetype and hit CTRL+C & CTRL+V multiple times. The book versions are diverse in being players in the the Game of Thrones.
I suspect the Sand Snakes were the first time the show really deviated from the books and the poor reception was when D&D decided they wanted to be done with the show ASAP. Like with GRRM not advising them anymore, they thought everyone was going to eat up their sexy inserts. When people hated it, it made them bitter.
Not really, they had made choice decisions before the Sand Snakes arrived. One I can think of involves Tyrion right after he loses his trial by combat...SPOILER AHEAD If you can recall, Tyrion had a wife named Tysha who was a peasent girl he rescued and married. Tywin found out and Jamie told Tyrion that she was a whore he hired for Tyrion. Tywon decided to annul the marriage and give Tysha to the garrison to "use" while Tyrion watched and then made him do the same. Tywin paid her silver for each guy and a gold for Tyrion and threw her out, never to be seen again. When Jamie frees Tyrion from jail, (for context Jamie returned to KL after Joff had died and Tyrion was arrested) and confesses that Tysha was NEVER a whore and that Tywin had forced him to say that. Tysha was a real peasent girl who truly loved Tyrion. Tyrion is enraged, hits Jamie, tells him Cersei has been sleeping with anybody and everybody and lies that he killed Joff and promises revenge for his family and everybody. And this is why Tyrion goes up to confront his father, finding Shae there (in the books it wasn't as romantic and she humiliated him at the trial) kills her and confronts his father about Tysha. And when Tywin repeatedly insults Tysha, calling her a whore and how she didn't matter, then Tyrion kills him. Which from this point on, Tyrion is fully on his villan arc. He hates everything and wants his family and Westeros to pretty much burn. Which is drastically different from the show. It wasn't even just Tyrion it affected but Jamie too. After this Jamie starts hating Cersei and not love her anymore, to the point that when he's at Riverrun and she writes a letter begging him for help after the Faith arrest her, he burns it. He is pretty much done with her.
@@Ashbrash1998 Stoneheart is one as well. But I honestly believe that removing those did not completely bring the story pass the point of no return, it was the demolition of the Dorne plot and the removal of the Aegon plot that spelled its doom.
@@KaiHung-wv3ulI’ve been called a dumbass by the GRRM hate group for this before, but I truly think the show was doomed regardless of if the books got released in time or not. Like you mentioned, they butchered the Dorne plot and completely disregarded Aegon, which is pretty big in the grand scheme of the series. Even if the man got those books out, I believe they were going their own way with the story. Way they wrote the last few seasons almost felt like they were intentionally trying to move away from the path the books had set up. Almost like they were trying to 1up George or something, or that they thought they were so clever they didn’t need most of feast and dance lol. I will give them a pass for keeping Beric over Stoneheart tho. I really like that change
@@brendan9868 Exactly. The fact that so many fans could create satisfying endings to the series despite the fact that the books hve not been released yet is telling.
@@KaiHung-wv3ulLady Stonheart is central for Brienne's and Jaime's arc and themes. And she also connects strongly to Arya's themes. She is a very crucial character. I would say, with the omission of her they did certainly kill many amazing storylines. Without Stoneheart, Brienne's story is aimless. Knighthood and Oaths do not get dismantled as a farce, revenge is romanitised and Arya kills tons of innocents while being celebrated for it...
CK2 AGOT is still superior. And likely will be for a few more years at least, if not forever. Which is understandable considering how many members of the main dev team for CK2 AGOT aren't a part of the CK3 version.
@@MC-CFC One of the main guys got hired by paradox, the company that makes Crusader Kings. Others I don't know but life happens to us all. Edit: reminder that CK2 is ancient and CK2 AGOT started a decade ago and finished the final release 4ish years ago. That's a long time I guess to work a project for free. It's a shame, because the ck2 AGOT team was brilliant. I just don't have the same confidence in the CK3 AGOT team, partly because of how vastly different CK3's base game is compared to CK2's base game. CK3 is a lot more The Sims than a strategy game and the focus seems to be on graphics and events vs scripts, modifiers, and mechanics that augment or influence strategy.
I just use the ck2 version. I tried the ck3 one again when I saw they added a wee bit of Essos and a new bookmark, but shit just crashed every few months so I stopped trying. Don’t know why, ran fine before and the base game runs well. It’s whatever tho, ck2 is more fun imo. The ai is a lot more aggressive and smart, so it feels a bit more realistic. Until they add more bookmarks, a dragon system and the rest of the map, I’m probably sticking to ck2
When I first read the FFC chapter that introduced the three eldest they reminded me of, in a psychological capacity, the Powerpuff girls. Mostly psychological. Tyene and Bubbles are blond and blue eyed and have an innocent persona that makes them seemingly harmless
We're going to avenge the death of Oberyn's sister and her children! By killing his brother and his child! YAS QUEENS! 🤦♂️ I hate D&D so much. They fumbled the Dorne and Ironborn subplots so badly.
Season 7 sucked, but it had some decent moments and was still far better than s8. I enjoyed a lot of the Beric stuff as I just really like the dude and think that’s one of the few changes that was good in the show. Seeing some of the characters meet/reunite was alright too, tho sometimes kinda cringe. Euron killing the dorne plot was definitely his only redeeming moment in the show tho. I just get sad thinking about book Euron vs show Euron.
The show screwed up in so many ways it's insane. Even by making them look similar, they screwed up. They were supposed to look as different as three girls could possibly look, because it was part of Oberyn's character to sleep around a lot with all kinds of women. Their different looks and characters were a fundamental part of their identity, and D&D just turned them into three interchangeable run of the mill girlbosses.
Truth of the matter is it doesn't matter wether Aegon is a Blackfyre or Targeyens. He will be king 🤷. Im pretty sure William the conquerors line is filled with divergent lines.
If George R.R. Martin ever finishes the series, I am looking forward to Dorne with it's 10,000 spears, coming up to avenge themselves against the Lannisters. They haven't spent any of their warriors thus far and it's only a matter of time that they march.
I remember looking forward to the sandsnakes and Dorne so much. I think they got a solid cast but they completely butchered what made the book versions better
By itself it is not stupid. But how it happened was. All the decisions they made for the show, none of them were stupid at face value, if executed properly they could have worked. In a story you always will have so many possibilities, George was talking about that, explaining "the gardener" type, but you have to be consistent, coherent and to build the characters in a believable ways. Sadly none of that was done in the show.
"father was careless" well, if that aint the pot callin the kettle black (thats not gonna get me flagged for racism, is it?) im kinda glad i didnt keep up with the show after the end of season 4 (for different circumstances and reasons not related to the show or plot; i would have gladly kept on trucking right along, had things been different) which i see almost as a divine blessing in retrospect. im not boarding the hate train with that comment. Oberyn's Ultimate Fate was my Red Wedding moment... and it remains as my single most traumatizing moment/ event in my LIFE (and thats not me being dramatic, either)
I honestly couldn't tell them apart at all in the show. The book versions are so amazing because of how unique each of them are. They look different from eachother, but they all have the shape of their father's viper eyes. Each are deadly no matter the appearance.
Each of them puts a face to a facet of the complicated man that was Oberyn Martell. While Doran was a patient and wily schemer, he was significantly more singular in aspect than his supposedly "simpler" brother. Not a bad thing, mind. The impression we get in reading the books is that Doran thinks way too much about things while Oberyn had life experience - one had Knowledge, the other Wisdom. The Serpent may not have survived all that long without the Grass to protect it, but Grass alone threatens nobody.
"Presumably she's the princess of Dorne now" yeah you know, once the ruling Prince and his heir are dead, next in line is his dead younger brother's unwed consort. It's Dornish Law, or something! Honestly they could have included *one line* like "Princess Obara, natural daughter of Oberyn Martell, now rules Dorne; however, she has little head for politics and sends Lady Ellaria as envoy to King's Landing" and just never mentioned it again.
To me, the Sand Snakes in the show were the first sign of trouble, they were so campy and dumb especially when compared with the books. Season 5 and onward they made every book character into a shell of themselves, some just took longer than others to transform into dumbness. First it was the Sand Snakes, then it was Tyrion, then the Ironborn and Euron, then Sansa/Littlefinger, then Arya, and then Jon, and then Varys, and finally Danerys.
Depends on the kind of trouble. In some senses, they were the point where a problem that had already been there since season 1 became impossible to ignore: the creators don't get the feminist themes of the books. One of the themes of the book (given the number and variety of female characters, and how characters like Cersei have been unmistakably shaped by their gender and how Westerosi society treats women) is the different ways women can navigate a deeply misogynistic culture, and the books come up with a lot of different answers. There are women like Obara, Brienne and Arya who react by picking up weapons and fighting their way through (and the books don't shy away from Arya's position of weakness compared to her enemies, or how much shit Brienne is given for being a woman who wants to do man things,) but the books don't dismiss the soft power that crafty noble ladies can wield as "lesser" than the hard power of your Obaras and Briennes, and most of the female characters don't resent other women for liking girly things (Cersei does, but that's a sign of her narcissism - she only cares about sexism when it prevents her from doing what she wants, and she seems to hate every other woman in Westeros, often for very sexist reasons.) Layered, complex, strong female characters come in a wide variety in the books - there are many different ways to be strong. But the show flattens this all out: to the showrunners, a strong female character is someone like Brienne or Arya, and any female character who is not like them gets the shaft. Catelyn is made less important and Robb is elevated at her expense, Arya and Brienne are Not Like Other Girls and hate women who do girly things now, Talisa Maegyr is working as a battlefield nurse because "she doesn't want to sit around planning balls" when (as many history buffs angrily pointed out) balls and dinner parties have traditionally been _very_ important for diplomacy and politics, and she could have done a lot more good by staying in Volantis and using this sort of soft power to try and influence Volantine society away from slavery...and this all happens before the Sand Snakes show up. The Sand Snakes are when this becomes impossible to overlook. In the books, they're individuals who take after their father in different ways. In the show, they're all warriors, they're basically interchangeable, they're trying way too hard to be badass in a way that shows how limited D&D's vision for what makes a cool female character is, and they're shit.
@@TalisguyYeah, I feel like D&D completely missed the point of GRRM's writing, the complexity yet over all believability of each character's interaction with one another and the setting and how it shaped the plot. To them, they took the success of the first four seasons as proof that people just want blood, guts and sex with an occasional dragon blowing shit up or a zombie wight walking by. It turned into LCD campy nonsense, with no grace or consideration for what makes a woman strong. By the final season, all the lead characters became the same, man or woman, the same exact scowl and intonation. They were all plot driven characters, the complete opposite of the books, in which characters drove the plot, each of whom were unique and organic.
@@Talisguywhat should really be asked is at what point did D&D feel not interested in the show anymore and why did they not hand it over to somebody else?
@@TalisguyI have spoken about this exact problem in the show, the flattening of themes. In particular, I lost my stomach for the show during season 5 when it became obvious that they were very heavy-handedly setting up the rise of women leaders by having their "Violence Against Women Inc." season. It was incredibly disheartening because of how ingrained feminist themes are in ASOIAF. I stopped watching until a couple years after the series had concluded and I could watch with full emotional detachment. It was literally sickening to me that they spent the entirety of season 5 dumping on women in increasingly creepy ways, culminating with the child brothel in Braavos and Sansa's wedding night. Both of those scenes are the exact type of thing that GRRM has the tact NOT to write, because depicting some types of violence is simply not going to serve anything except the fetishization of violence itself. And that's my main criticism of GoT once the source material ran dry and Dan+Dave were creative leads - they clearly fetishize violence, not understanding that the series is intended to condemn it. It became the focus of the show instead of the accent that flavours the rest of the dish. We can forget about thematic development entirely.
@@Levacque Yeah, season 5 is also where I stopped watching. And I just realised something when reading this comment - it's probably not a coincidence that pretty much the only female character in the show whose writing shows an understanding of soft power is Margaery, who's now a Sexy Manipulative Seductress. Now, I love the show's version of Margaery. She's a great character, and presenting someone like her - someone ambitious, seductive and manipulative - as solidly less evil than the people she's trying to manipulate and usurp (Joffrey and Cersei) is a cool move. ...But it's probably not a coincidence that pretty much the only character who's allowed to be cool and interesting because she wields soft power very well, without needing to back it up with physical force or being sidelined, is one who lines up with a well worn trope: the Femme Fatale. They only Get It if it's well-established territory, like a power-hungry woman using her sexy female sexy manipulation to sexily manipulate men. With sex. But the (supposed) hero's grieving widow being the voice of reason and the political expert for her son's army? Making a lot of the best decisions for that side herself, and often being ignored because she's a woman? Being a fairytale Wicked Stepmother to one of the heroes, but still treated as a rounded and mostly sympathetic character despite her harsh treatment of another sympathetic character for something that wasn't his fault? That's a bit too different. Better focus on her son instead and reduce her role to a Concerned Mother.
really did Martell dirty by having him being so passive instead of a cunning leader who was just being patient, waiting for the right moment to take the Lannisters out. the coup was pretty stupid, there was clearly other relatives that could have taken over Dorne, but the Sand Snakes and a Paramour are the ones to seize power, when they had zero claims to the throne of Dorne.
Makes no sense. Like yeah I’m sure nobody in Dorne would take issue to a bastard of house Uller organizing the murder and overthrow of the their Prince and his son lmao
“Weak men will never rule Dorne.” Well, Ellaria kinda forgot that her people descended from a badass warrior queen and women have equal rights in Dorne.
Lol true about Nymeria but Dorne only had equal inheritance at Kingdom level or Lord Paramount . Women didn't have equal rights noble women yes but to an extent. Other nobles in Westeros wouldn't ally with a woman who usurp throne.
@@josephbulkin9222 When did this happen? The Rhoynar forces that fought Valyria were annihilated by 300 dragons. Nymeria did the right thing by running away.
The Dorne plotline was the first major indication that GoT was going off the rails. The Sand Snakes definitely being the worst of this ham fisted, ill conceived attempt to shoehorn Dorne into the story for the purpose of getting that faction into the endgame. Putting Bronn into the middle of it was also a huge red flag as it indicated a willingness to pander to the audience. I remember giving the show the benefit of the doubt thinking that surely D&D would learn from this error and course correct in time to land the plane in a satisfactory manner. Little did I know that it marked the beginning of the end. ASoIaF was one of my favorite things in the world and it's been ruined forever. First GoT went so completely off the rails that it ruined even the excellent first four seasons. Worse yet George decided finishing ASoIaF was too hard and possibly pointless after the show wound up enraging the fan base. It just reiterates what I've known for a while. Everything is horrible
I don't think how the show ended ruined George from finishing the books, because the showrunners were already so far removed. He also is a part of the HOTD show and has other ASOIAF projects as well.
@@Ashbrash1998 Neato Whether or not the show is keeping George from finishing or not it's now beyond debate for any reasonable person paying attention that he's not finishing. He's had over a decade since ADWD was released a period that included mandated isolation from COVID. At this point I wish he'd just stop lying about WoW and whining about how mean his fans are. It's one thing to be angry about George not finishing but I feel like it's perfectly justified to be salty about George's dissembling and the aforementioned years of lies.
@@Bewbscueser I kinda agree with him there tbh, most people do in fact suck ass and the world would be MUCH better without them. That being said, I do believe we will be seeing winds someday. Now for dream I'm less optimistic.
@@12354rony God I hope you're right. Admittedly I'm a dyed in the wool pessimist but when George didn't finish during COVID I was convinced he never would. My guess is George will pass away leaving the series to be finished by some hack like Brandon Sanderson with an assist from Chat-GPT. Never forget... everything is horrible.
The only thing they have in common aside from their names are they are full of themselves and massive hypocrites. In the books, they plan to kill Tommen and are shocked when its revealed that Cersei plans to kill Tristan 'hE's A cHiLd' In the show, 'we do not kill children in dorne', but we do kill our uncle (who are father loved), his son by stabbing him in the back and poison an innocent child. Then later, get killed by Discount Jack Sparrow or get poisoned/crushed to death by the Crazy Queen (take your pick).
Don't remind me that the show also took Cyvasse from us 😭 I would love to play an IRL version. A game where you move army units AND get to arrange the terrain at the beginning? That sounds so cool!
just because Nymeria Sand was "abed" with Jeyne and Jennelyn Fowler when she recieved the news of Oberyn's death does not mean she likes women in that way. Unmarried highborn women have been known to share their beds with other highborn women. Margaery Tyrell is a perfect example, sharing her bed with her cousins.
Elia Sand, best written sandsnake on the show...I absolutely love that joke. i do like Book Sandsnakes. They are unique from each other. They are each dangerous in their own ways. And there is plenty to speculate from and about them. If we ever get more books, I hope we get more of the Sandsnakes
When I went back to rewatch GoT in preps for the final season, I skipped the Sand Snake scenes entirely, worst written characters in the show and their arc was meaningless.
One of the greatest bait and switch moments in the books is how the entire Dornish plot leaves you wondering, why is Doran so useless? Sure Arianne and the Snakes are brash and inexperienced, but clearly Doran is not. How can he not care about revenge? How can he just sit in the water gardens? How can he detest his ancestral seat of Sunspear so much that he only grudgingly goes? Why won’t he at least listen to his daughter and nieces and try to do SOMETHING?! Only to find out at the end that he has been planning a Targaryen restoration the entire time. Dude was playing 4D chess while everyone around him was digging in the sand. Doesn’t seem to be going too well (poor Quentin) but all that to say that it’s so sad that in the show, he is actually just a useless wimp which by default makes the awful Snad Sneks technically correct. So stupid. Also, Alexander Siddiq is a great actor and did a good job with what little he was given, his portrayal was an excellent counterpoint to Pedro’s Oberyn. What a waste.
I'll drop my prediction for what happens to Sand Snakes in "Winds": Obara teams up with Darkstar and they kill Areo and Balon (since Areo is one of the more likely POVs that will be killed off). They both join fAegon afterwards; Tyene poisons Tommen and Myrcella (since latter is coming to King's Landing from what I remember), possibly after seeing that Mountain is still alive. She probably survives thanks to connections with High Sparrow; Nymeria I think is the one that will most likely die, either she's poisoned by Varys or is killed by Mountain; Sarella and Sam will eventually discover faceless man in the Citadel and probably uncover some other secrets (such as Jon's true heritage or maybe something about Others). They also both survive Euron's attack because of course they do.
How would Arianne feel if Dorkstar just shows up at King's Landing? She would most likely be queen by that point and you'd think she'd just order his head off.
The show after Jon is resurrected steadily goes downhill. The last great episode was the battle of the bastards. I would have loved the book version of the sand snakes as well. Would have made the whole high sparrow plot line so much less predictable.
I’m currently reading the books. (I’m 12 chapters into A Storm of Swords) and I’m really liking it so far, but I do know a certain wedding is coming. I also enjoy reading ASOIAF fan-fiction. The two I’m reading now are The Dragon Cub and A Song of Three Sons. The first one is an R+L=J centered theory that starts just after the Greyjoy rebellion with one change: Tywin dies and Jamie feels freed from his father and is also set free by King Robert to become the Lord of Casterly Rock. He rides north for a feast in Winterfell and notices a young Jon Snow and sees him with a sword and thinks well of him and also sees how similar he looks to Rhaegar and puts two and two together and Ned and offers to squire the boy and prepare him to be king. At times things seem to go a little too good for Jon and the Lannisters but it’s a decent story. A warning though: If you like Catelyn and Edmure then you might not like how they are portrayed in the story. The second fanfic starts closer to the original start date and each chapter follows a different POV. The three main POV characters are three original characters made by the writer. Tristan Stark Robb’s Twin, Loren Lannister another son of Tywin, and Lyonel Baratheon son of Stannis and sister to Shireen. Great video. Peace ✌🏻
Check this out-in text, Obara Sands is almost 30 years old. Cersei's age. Oberyn was NOT young when he went to Casterly Rock-he is OLDer. Right before they get to Casterly Rock, he is in Oldtown with Elia. THAT is when he 'makes' Obara Sands...or when he went and got her from her mother and had her choose between spears or tears. I never finished the show-but I would bet she dies on water, NOT Sand, because in text certain Dornish should NEVER try to sail. If she leaves land/sand, Obara will die. She is a Sand that was born in Oldtown-she shouldn't be a Sand. It is a clever kind of code in text. A sand snake cannot be buried-but it can drown. In text-they should be able to survive any underground 'dungeon' but they stand no chance on water.
God I was so disappointed when they finally introduced the sandsnakes in the show - more than that I was so embarrassed because I'd been hyping them up to an aquantence who hadn't read the books and then d & d did what they did best and just took a dump on the source materials.
Lol why was Tristan killed in show lol it's pure nonsense a deeply patriarchal society would never accept a woman it'd make more sense to frame Jamie for death of Doran and have Tristain rule.
