I don't understand the motives of people pushing back against this video stating "spurious, dubious, ill-supported!" The video summary states this is a perspective video, not a debunking video. Yet there are commenters clamoring to bemoan the absence of incontrovertible debunking in this video. Seems awfully knee-jerk and defensive.
Please share more of your thoughts soon. I work in neurobiology and can see a place for polyvagal theory, with what little I know about it, but would like to hear your critique as well.
Man, I was hoping to learn something. And don't say I did not watch like you've done to another viewer. Crazy behavior for a therapist too, going tit for tat in youtube comments. A well rounded therapist would be able to take critique without acting on feeling triggered. Hope you can take this feedback without getting upset. I want to like a therapist that specilizes in psycadelic therapy. I'd also be curious to learn more about body centered therapy (or however you worded it).
I do therapy in my office, nowhere else. I engage in lively debate on YT when I choose. The two are not related, and if you think they are, you are misinformed. Please see Jonathan Shedler on X/Twitter for more details. Thanks for watching. 🙂
I am confused. What aspects of polyvagal theory are you trying to disprove? Your video doesn't specify beyond mentioning The Body Keeps the Score kinda sucks… which I also wouldn't recommend it, but like, that isn't polyvagal theory as a concept. Conceptually, how does it fail? For me as a person who has substantially healed from a reactive cptsd (but who will still need to manage my reactivity as a symptom of my cptsd, that is as a chronic condition) the concept of the polyvagal ladder is useful even if it doesn't perfectly map to how our neurobiology functions. It is a simple model, that proposes a hierarchy of mental states: 1. safe-and-social, 2. mixed states (fawn or freeze), 3. crisis states (fight or flight) and 4. shutdown (totally frozen). In my recovery I used lots of somatic awareness techniques to determine if I am in safe-and-social or down the ladder somewhere, and I exercise more caution when I am not in the present and grounded safe-and-social state. This is a useful model for me and my recovery. I move slower than I did before diagnosis and recovery, but the moves I make are more self-assured, so I think this model is useful for folks recovering from trauma. I've seen a debunking of EMDR (ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-PZmvk30gJEQ.html) so I know that arguments against different methods and modalities can be done and done well. And this is as someone who has benefited from an EMDR session… I can recognize that that session produced a shift in consciousness and a sense of relief from the traumatic event that deeply bothered me, while at the same time recognizing that the work before and after the EMDR session likely set me up for success, and bilateral stimulation likely isn't a magic bullet, but just a nice stim to help keep me more present and grounded while processing difficult emotions.
I stated clearly in the description that I'm not attempting to disprove anything in this video. I will provide explanations in future videos. I am explaining how I was duped into believing unsupported and outdated ideas. It's wonderful to hear that you were helped. That doesn't change the problem of educators teaching therapists outdated, pseudoscientific ideas to explain how the methods work. That is my argument. Nothing more.
@@LeahBensonTherapyTampaThats fair, your video was a hot-take and not a detailed examination/documentary about polyvagal theory or modern neuroscience. I’m not sure what you mean about me being helped. To your point, you state that you were “duped” but then you describe seeking, finding, and grasping onto a modality as a way to market yourself. Your description sounds like a chosen strategy for promoting your practice, not like someone “duped” you. While I wouldn’t adopt any modality without fully investigating it first, there’s certainly always room for learning and growing in this field. Why not simply take ownership for your learning and choices you’ve made as a practitioner?
@documentariesbycategory1483 - You said you were healed, that's what I was referring to. As for taking ownership, I definitely take it. And I'm a better skeptic now.That doesn't preclude my feeling duped by the leaders in the field selling outdated wares and alleging they are on the cutting edge.
@@LeahBensonTherapyTampa I'm not sure why @documentariesbycategory1483 is responding to my thread. 🤷🏻 When the title card reads "How I got duped to believing polyvagal theory" it does set an expectation in the viewer that there will be some debunking of the topic you claim 'duped' you. Lacking it means you aren't meeting viewer expectations. It sounds like you wanted to get something out now rather than wait until you had a complete explanation. TBH, I think this approach is too low information for me to recommend your channel as a resource, and going forward I'd recommend waiting until your material is fully baked.
What I wonder also, if feelings are just based on predictions of the brain then how does that explain energies of feelings being stuck in the body? The fascia of my body are full of trigger points that hurt from repressed feelings. And when these are massaged I clearly notice a feeling coming to the surface. So I have personal proof of these energies being stuck in the body. You would then say that when these feelings are felt that the physical manifestation of them also vanishes and is cleared from the fascia. Does this still make sense in light of the new science you speak of? I'm really curious about how this works...
@zelfontwikkeling3675 -yes , it totally makes sense, and does in light of 21st c science as well. Short story is that predictions are plans for action. These can be, in a sense, stuck in the "on position," and create the chronic tensions. Those tensions will often have a story associated with them related to the times of the onset of the tensions, and those stories/ memories/images/etc. can come spilling into consciousness as the tension is released in the bodywork. Basically a multisensory summary (body experience and storyline) is brought into awareness as the tension is releasing under manual pressure... or any other way it's letting go (breathwork/psychedelics/etc.)
@@LeahBensonTherapyTampa Thanks for explaining that. Would it then also have an explanation for when non-bodywork therapies help someone process the feelings around an event and it resolving the corresponding chronic tensions in the body?
@@zelfontwikkeling3675 - Yes. There isn't a thought in the mind that doesn't have a corresponding body-state attached to it. Remember, the mind and body are one. That means that sometimes, though not always, when discussing an event, the corresponding body-state that goes along with the story that needs to be expressed (sadness or anger...or whatever) can be let out in the safe space of conversation with a therapist or trusted friend. Generally when the chronic tension that has been "held in place" around that story is released as the story is shared/confessed/etc. in the presence of someone you trust, it doesn't return. Sometimes it does, and that just means there's more to understand and let go of around that story. Sometimes, specific body interventions can be employed to facliliate that, but they don't HAVE to be. All depends on the individual you're dealing with, and how apt they are to spontaneously express themselves. Hence the value of body-based interventions available to practitioners trained in things like bioenergetic analysis-- a body-focused depth psychotherapy.
@@LeahBensonTherapyTampa Thanks Leah. I still have a hard time understanding the full picture. I can totally see how feelings can be predictions of the brain based on conditioning. And when these feelings are too overwhelming it can cause us to not fully release the energy and that can get stuck. A lot of these moments (which we often call trauma) seem to have happened in childhood. So let's say someone went through a bad event as a child, then that caused them to get overwhelmed and not process the feelings so the energy got stuck. Now they have a physical symptom in the body of the stuck energy. But they also have an imprint in their brain that keeps them making these false energy budget predictions. What I'm trying to understand here is the difference or likeness of the anchored brain prediction of the feelings linked to certain events VERSUS the physical suppression of the energy that is kept stuck in the body. Are these the same? Because it seems to be possible that someone regress to the traumatic memory and then feel those feelings and resolve the fact that their brain makes these predictions that spark the intense feelings. Would this mean that if someone has any kind of brain prediction linked to an event and would then fully feel and release that energy, that in the future that event would not spark the brain to make that same energy budget prediction anymore?
@@zelfontwikkeling3675 - All experience is prediction, whether you call it "feelings linked to certain events" or "the energy that is kept stuck in the body.' (Or thoughts, or memories, or imaginings, or any other cognition or sensation) It doesn't matter what experience you are having. It is a 24/7 prediction cascade. That's all there is. So, I wouldn't exactly explain it like you said it in your last sentence, but in essence the answer to that question is yes. If things are truly "resolved" after that release, the brain will not be making the same ineffective predictions after that point. The model will be updated. It's all about updating the model and having better predictions for any given moment.
As someone who is interested in the polyvagal theory and other body-based psychotherapy ideas, I'm very intrigued by your talk! I'll subscribe and keep a look out for your future videos. I'm interested in learning about the significance of "predictive processing," for one.
It would be great if you could list your sources or provide some evidence for your claims Leah, especially since your topic is about debunking a theory on the basis of such evidence. As it stands your claims are unsubstantiated, but I would be keen to know the data behind your conclusions.
The books shown in the middle of the video are summaries of much the disproving data. That said, future videos will speak more about the 21st century science. I can't put everything in one video.
I see that others have been saying the same. I understand the premise of this video and I'm very much looking forward to your new videos on this subject 🙏
Her theory doesn't need to "explain" it. It's a physiological status that has zero inherent psychological meaning. If you don't understand that, you haven't understood her theory.
@@LeahBensonTherapyTampa Thank you for answering my question. You're right, as obviously I must not understand Lisa Barrett's theory correctly, but I'm trying to, so thanks for helping. People don't understand the brain properly, as it's so complicated, and in every era, medicine has had wrong beliefs about things. But improved theories show evolutionary advantage, and increased predictive power. Lisa's idea that emotions are a whole brain process, is that acceptive of the fMRI studies, that show increased activation of the amygdala by the fear response? I'm not sure what I'm missing in Lisa's theory to explain amygdala activation by the fear response?
@@davidestabrook5367 - The amygdala "lights up" just as much in something called a 1-back test as in a "fear response," A 1-back test is a memory test in which a person is asked to remember one number back from a current number they are being told. It lights up just as much when they are asked to recall a familiar telephone number as well. The experiments that show "lighting up" in a "fear response" are LOOKING for support of the idea that the amygdala is the home of emotions, and the "fear response." This does not prove that the amygdala is the "home" of emotions or "the fear response." (These are conceptual categories that the brain does not respect, as Lisa would say.) People can have "fear" without the amygdala "lighing up." The bottoms line is that experiment design and interpretation of the data is SUPER important, and mostly used to support hypotheses, not to discover new things. This is the difference between what Lisa is doing and what most affective neuroscience researchers are doing.
Hmm…I have been skeptical of polyvagal theory as well. I saw a therapist for a while who wrote about it on her website. While I liked her, liked attending sessions, she was of like use as my symptoms escalated. That may have been because she lacked experience, but I don’t know. What concerns me is that I don’t see you offering an alternative. 21st century science is non-specific. I see many videos on your channel marketing psychedelics, which I am very skeptical of. There’s still not a lot of science to support their use. And the polyvagal therapist who was supervising my inexperienced therapist has now moved on to psychedelics as well. It just feels like part of the same beliefs.
@JHabc - here's the video breaking down my alternative way of working. It's explained in the last third, so go there if you don't want to hear the science. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-BfJd6i7WIo4.htmlsi=3XlPsOtQ7Kdvavzj Also, as for psychedelics, I wrote at book called The Beginner's Guide to Ketamine Therapy for Mental Health that explains my position. It's not magic. Psychedelics are an adjunct to therapy, nothing more.
Hmmm. As I understand it, the “evidence based” approach has settled on the idea that the modality itself is not entirely relevant, but in order to be “effective” the therapist has to, most importantly, GAF. Please don’t go to massage school if you don’t understand that. That profession doesn’t need you.
Some of the books that summarize it are shown in the video. Here they are. The Experience Machine by Andy Clark. How Emotions Are Made, Lisa Feldman Barrett. Surfing Uncertainty, Andy Clark. Active Inference, Karl Friston. 7 and 1/2 Lessons About The Brain, Lisa Feldman Barrett. The Theory of Constructed Emotion, Lisa Feldman Barrett. Check out videos featuring Ruben Laukkonen, Mark Miller, Andy Clark, Lisa Feldman Barrett here on YT. Some of my future videos will summarize it (in very tl;dr fashion ) as well.
@@LeahBensonTherapyTampa Thank you! Sorry about that, I must have been looking away while they popped up on the screen. Looking forward to following this video series.
@@LeahBensonTherapyTampa Just took your suggestion and started with reading How Emotions are Made, my mind is already reeling with new ideas for how to approach therapy, thank you!
So, you found you tube marketing works for you. Science, not so much? 10 minutes and you feel better, but we learned nothing, except maybe fear of psychologists and their pseudo-science. No wonder you have a problem keeping clients and marketing yourself. Maybe stop blaming everything else
You didn't put your eyes on the video if you didn't learn anything. My debunking sources were shown on screen. This video, however, was not about teaching the new stuff, that will come in future videos, it was about why that garbage got popular.
Marketing herself? Jesus.. the capitalist system has really warped the mind of Yankees and I mean psychology is often a tool of enforcing that so I guess no surprise
