I have been playing Magic since 25 years ago and what I see is: there are rarely new players because of cards price (mainly on almost extinct legacy or modern tournaments) . This reserved list is not just a lie, is a CAPS BULLSHIT. It is a miracle a company like WOC, with this poor administration, is still alive. Reprint, and print and reprint... People like good cards, people want to experience old formats, let they be happy (and spend money as you want WOC)... Reserved list is good for a minor group of collectors, not for the rest 99% of players...
@Always On It That is an insane amount of Gatekeeping you are showing right here. Nobody wants a black lotus for 1 dollar but people also don't want to sell their organs to try vintage. I don't think the point about the RL being outdated has to be made for commander, there are so many other card options that you can use. Its about vintage especially. People enjoy older formats and ultimately what keeps the game alive is a lot of healthy ones, that keep getting played. Guess why pioneer and all the other formats started popping up. The reserve list simply gives you an insane barrier to overcome before playing. And for the value loss of cards: Just look at Pokemon for example. Base set Charizard has multiplied his value over the last years even though there are a lot of reprints of it, some even from a standard set as a rare. History of the cards make them expensive not the fucking reserve list. The only thing the RL does is make people frustrated and proxy. And i own a good amount of dual lands, urza saga lands and other reserve list stuff so don't argue that i only say that because i don't RL cards. The RL will change they are testing it now with Legends Cards in Dominaria United and in a couple of years there will be lottery cards like Expeditions or Inventions and the OG cards will still hold their value.
The point prof was making is that an old version can be very expensive and another copy can be cheap. Black lotus would drop some if reprinted but an alpha version will still be very expensive because of the rareity
That's entirely true but it's COMPLETELY missing the point. It's a massively myopic viewpoint that is shameful for a person like him who has been in the hobby for decades. VERY SIMPLY PUT... what the Prof is missing is that many factors determine a cards value. Gameplay power, how many decks can use it, how many formats use it, how fun it is to play, how many original print, how many reprint, what is the coolest artwork, does it have a special collector story behind it, etc etc etc. ALL those factors add up and the free market goes through a process called "Price discovery" where buyers and sellers hash it out... and a price finally emerges. It's COMPLICATED to say the least. Every card is like it's own mini-case study in what determines price. No two are the same. This means some RL cards might drop 99% on reprint, others might not drop at all. It completely varies. Beta Serra Angel has already experienced its price drops from reprints, so more reprints no longer effect it. But Black Lotus and Dual Lands never had a reprint, so there would be much larger losses there. And the amount of drop is not insignificant. Easy for your dismiss losing 100k dollars of hard earned money invested for other people. But some people might be devastated at that. They invested in an out of print product that was promised to REMAIN out of print. A broken promise is what would be required to print those again and yes a lawsuit WOULD IN FACT be moral and correct. You cannot just break a promise to another persons detriment and expect to remain on moral high ground. So stop dismissing the value loss as not important because "it's still valuable." The next time somebody smashes into your car, causing 3k of damage on a car worth 40k that you are still paying for... remember this moment and tell yourself "well it's still worth 37k, so by my own logic I cannot complain or ask for the person who hit me to pay." It's terrible logic.
@@Syne111 they will still be worth something. Even revised are still rare enough to keep their value. Not to mention their art and border such as the weird squares on duals.
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer Keyword in your reply: Investment. Except it's not just an investment, it's a speculative investment. You are betting that the value will grow. It doesn't always. Rather than compare it to a car crash, which isn't even an apples to oranges comparison (cars devalue, your cards aren't insured unless you have homeowners or renter's insurance possibly with a specific rider you are paying for, etc.) you would do better to compare it to the stock market. Values fluctuate and for more reasons than just reissues of a given thing. Mismanagement is a thing (Standard changes, focus on the CMDR format, etc.), and then there's the Pinkerton Effect. WotC is doing a fine job of driving the company into the dirt atm imho. They need a major image rehab (between MtG and D&D) and as far as MtG goes, well, for legal reasons they really cannot acknowledge a secondary market lest they be gone after legally for racketeering/illegal gambling (as I understand it) and if Standard dies, well, the whole game goes with it. Also, we are seen as a barrier between the company and our money. Their words. So as far as I'm concerned, I don't care what they do nor how that affects the investor market. They need to figure out how to undo the damage they've done chasing the short-term dollar instead of taking a long-term view on the growth and quality of the game. If that means reprinting cards, so be it, as the collapse of MtG will certainly affect collectability and not in a positive way in the short-term. Finally, consult with an attorney on what the legal burden of proof in a court of law is. I promise you it doesn't even begin to resemble common sense. It was interesting listening to your opinion. I agree in part and disagree in part.
In 2022 Pokemon collectors are loving the 25th anniversary celebrations set and the Charizard reprints, while the original is still worth 1000's. In Yu-Gi-Oh, you can buy a Blue Eyes White Dragon reprint and enjoy the art and the card for a few dollars, while the original is still worth 1000's. Why are MTG people so paranoid about reprints of original artwork? I mean, you can proxy an alpha card and it's worth nothing... I would love to buy proxies from Wizards since my printer sux ass. If I could buy high-quality prints of the expensive cards It would motivate me even more to try to obtain an original one day.
my 2 cents, under the law Wizards owns the rights to reprint their property. They never sold those cards at 1000's dollars, and they are not considered securities. I don't see why anyone would sue, and under what legal classification. It's like suing Nike for selling a new release of their Air Jordan 1 cuz you are a "collector/investor" and your original sneakers took a price hit. I mean, tough shit if you're mad cuz you invested/speculated on an item you don't own the rights to print, nor do you have any legal contract that prohibits Wizards to do so. Get real, we are all speculating on cardboard and ink.
You are right that the reserve list is not a binding contract. They can break it legally with no criminal charges. However, since a public promise was made through the reserve list, there is a thing called promissory estoppel. Promissory estoppel is a theory of recovery in contracts law that doesn't require there to be an actual contract between parties for the aggrieved party to seek financial damages through a civil lawsuit. Given as Edwin mentioned that liability is over $1 billion for just revised duals that is a high risk and would offset even a massive success for reprinting ($200-400m). However, there is no guaranteed a judge would rule this way, but there is legal precedent for them to do so unlike what Edwin implied. Nike would have to have publicly promised to never make new Air Jordans for that comparison to hold. I think it was shortsighted for WotC to make this promise, but the problems caused can be sidestepped by allowing proxies, color swaps, or reprinting cards that function similarly, but are not identical, which they have already done with Reverberate, which is very similar to the RL card, Fork. No law suit ever occurred for it.
Was thinking the same thing after watching Edwin's other more recent videos making the same claim. Wild he still makes it. Would love to see one cited case where an entity was sued because someone's collectibles lost value in a secondary market.
@@hotbeefpolish I make the statements because I'm right. There is NO previous example of a Promissory Estoppel lawsuit like the Reserved List. It's very likely the biggest one to ever exist. The total potential damages is over 10 billion and the promise has been publicly made, remade, remade, remade, again and again with provable knowledge of the secondary market. PE lawsuits get STRONGER with time, not weaker. Because it becomes EASIER to prove that WoTC knew people invested in the cards. Shit man... MTG 30th at 999 a box is straight up confirmation WoTC knows those cards are valuable. That reprint was their best way to work around it and get some of that equity without breaking the list
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer The 30th Anniversary packs are expensive because they know people will pay for them. There's no promise being made to consumers that the price of their cards will forever go up in value. So I don't see how promissory estoppel applies here. The Reserve List would have to be considered a legal agreement between parties instead of a marketing tool. Would love for you to talk to a lawyer who deals with this to explain because simply saying you're right doesn't make it so without proof, particularly in legal matters.
@@hotbeefpolish First, know that it's just your guess people will buy those boxes. I think different... I think either they will barely sell OR they will sell but the secondary market will utterly reject them as singles. Anybody who buys at retail prices will take a bath. Second, you literally don't understand Promissory Estoppel. Promissory Estoppel says NOTHING about CONTROLLING prices. It's a promise not to do something specific that would likely impact prices. You make NO promise about prices, you promise not to do something. In this case, they promised not to print certain cards. What happens to secondary market prices is just what ever the market decides to do... if prices go UP after a RL break... there will be no lawsuit. But clearly, WoTC knows there's way way more chance prices would crash and a lawsuit would therefore be triggered.
The argument that legacy/vintage work "when wotc supports them", doesn't really make sense to me, because by your own admission, the issue that makes wotc not want to support them is the fact that they don't sell packs of new product, but the reserve list is precisely what makes it so that supporting legacy/vintage doesn't help them sell packs. If they could put legacy/vintage staples in premium packs/products, how does this not kill 2 birds with 1 stone of revitalizing old formats, making the game more accessible, and moving expensive premium cardboard at the same time?
Great question. That IS a factor on the positive side of breaking the Reserved List. If being able to access more of those old cards (in reprinted form) brought SO many new people into those formats that the fear/selloff from the RL break reversed and the prices of original cards actually went UP.... that would be a huge win for everybody. While that is 100% true, and it's the correct way to look at it... it's a HUGE RISK for WoTC to take. Taking actions that might completely bankrupt your company for not much more profit (if any) even in the best case scenario is a terrible business decision. It's like me offering you $5 to play Russian Roulette... why would you do it?!? WoTC is making record profits hand over fist right now WITHOUT breaking the RL. There is literally no incentive for them to take that risk. I hope that makes sense.
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer how would a multi million dollar company go bankrupt from breaking reserve list hmm? It's a promise, they can break it. All u got is false legal holdings on things you cannot print that u bought secondhand.
Magic cards arent stocks and dont deserve to be treated like it, truth be told i dont care if people lose money for sitting on 5,000 dollar cards you shouldnt use cardboard toys as your life's savings
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer Yes its totally just MY opinion because its so cool that because of idiots using toys as stocks there are certain TOYS that people like me will never ever in 100 years get to play with! Thats so awesome for a game! To have cards that cost 10k a piece and sometimes dont even have functional reprints!
@@rolandluckett2399 That's the facts with a CCG. A card game does not have that aspect, but a CCG does. Now that you understand what it has always been for 28 years... decide if you want to do it.
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer holding onto stuff for 28 years without a change is simply put stupid. in the long term the reserved list will either destroy eternal formats or each card on the reserved list gets banned because it causes to much trouble in the eternal formats. the later would decrease the price of the cards the most.
@@eragonbook4 Holding RL cards was in fact the correct move, not stupid. Obviously. None of those RL are getting banned because they are rare and expensive. That's not why WoTC ever does bannings.
Duel lands are a special case and should never have been on the reverse list as they are game pieces and only pose as collector items because of scarcity so using them as the example for why the proff is wrong is unfair.
Gonna chime in with the Revised dual lands argument. That claim is assuming that those dual lands will drop to $0, which will not happen. No card from Revised currently costs $0 nor ever will. So just as your assumption for WotC making a 25% increase in revenue over reprinted dual lands was admittedly a hyperbole, so was investors losing a collective total of over $1B just on Revised dual lands. Also, all Revised dual lands aren't accounted for. Many collectors invest in sealed boxes so there isn't a tally either of where all of them are; it's just speculation at that point over how much would be lost. Not arguing that money wouldn't be lost, just pointing out that it's not going to be over $1B and much less proven to be so, since condition is also a factor in a card's value. Something else I want to point out over WotC's decisions decreasing the value of cards is with their recent campaign of eliminating racism from the game. Invoke Prejudice is a card on the Reserved List and was around $400 the highest before the ultra ban. The card can no longer be sold on tcgplayer (the example you used as a market to gauge the behavior of card prices) nor bought by any other store due to the stigma. So the card is essentially "worthless" unless you find someone to sell to on eBay. So a card that can only be sold between person to person isn't really a good way to gauge how prices can fluctuate in a market. WotC's decision has essentially made this card incredibly difficult to sell (when compared to others on the Reserved List). So whoever decided to invest in this card some time ago - even if they bought into $5-10k worth of Invoke Prejudice, will have a way more difficult time selling their "share of the market" of this card than others. Whether they can remake their investment or not remains to be seen. While I'm on the topic of searching for card averages on online markets, it's still possible to manipulate the market as far prices for cards with low supply are concerned since many times sellers have given an astronomically large price for cards and this artificially inflates the average of cards. So while it is a good measurement in most cases, it's not as faithful a valuation tool as stock prices on financial markets are, for example. Another thing to keep in mind is that all of those collections are only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Someone can claim they have $10M invested in Reserved List cards and can actually have people value their collections, etc. But at the end of the day, that collection is only ever worth what someone is willing to pay for it. This is inherent risk of the commodities market. I remember when the comic book market dove so low that people were deathly scared of bankruptcy. The same thing can happen with MtG. Rather than worry about WotC ever abolishing the Reserved List, another thing to worry about is what happens when WotC drops the ball to such an extent that the game dies. Will this game be as strong as it is 40 years from now when those MtG investors plan on liquidating their investment? Will their Reserved List collection continue accruing value up and up and up? How popular with MtG be or its nostalgia when the big RL players want to cash out? That's something to be equally worried over, in my opinion.
The Dual Land example was intentionaaly kept simple just to get the point across. That the damages outstrip the potential profit by a LOT. You missed the forest throught the trees there. And I actually think the Revised duals coukd drop to $50 each from $404 average which is most. And no... most of them are opened not sealed still. Invoke Prejudice is still selling for big money, just not on those typical sites. So no it was not a collapse. In addition the RL says no printing not made illegal. Finally it's very easy to get a ballpark market value on a RL collection. People do it every day. The metrics exist... TCG player, Ebay price history, auctions, store records, etc.
just in case you have not seen it... Invoke Prejudice LP condition going for $300 on Ebay. Definitely NOT "worthless" www.ebay.com/itm/MTG-Invoke-Prejudice-English-Legends-LP-MP/203098883064?hash=item2f49a303f8:g:3IIAAOSwPDdfVBao
……I don’t give a fuck whether or not they “promised” whether or not they would reprint old and expensive cards, such as those on the reserved list. The Playerbase needs easier accessibility to cards they want without having to shell hundreds to sometimes thousands of dollars. If cards are become more accessible and easier to obtain, players are going to feel more comfortable investing in this game. Yu-Gi-Oh despite being a drastically different game, knows Reprints are a good idea, because they help the Casual Playerbase a ton and they help the Compettive Playerbase a ton. I agree the Reserve List is not holding back the game. The biggest thing holding back the Game is the Secondary Market and WOTC not reprinting cards people need reprinted that haven’t been reprinted.
Vintage, Old School, and Legacy "thriving" is a misnomer by modern standards. It is not the same as playing T1 or T1.5 in 1996. The prices are outside of playability for the average human. Basically, unless you have a lot of money or kept your collection from 1993, then you probably aren't ever going to have a chance for top8 at Vintage Worlds. Current value of a Beta Black Lotus is roughly $50k USD on eBay right now. As for reprint prices, Grim Tutor and Mana Drain are prime examples of price effects from the reprinting of useful old cards.
...as a side note, I've been playing Vintage since type splits to T1, and Old School since 2015. Even counting two trips to Vintage Worlds in 2006/2007, I've played less than 500 legitimate OS93/94 or Vintage games after 1998. It's simply too difficult to both find a regular player and schedule time to play, even considering 12 hour driving time to meet people. Consider how many games a Standard or Commander player can have if they're willing to drive half a day to meet people.
6:10 This is entirely untrue. It's not simple supply and demand because you have to factor in the various versions of the card. The simplest way to show this is to reference the countless examples of reprints of older cards that aren't on the reserve list. There is historical evidence to suggest that the ABU dual lands would not move, or if they did, it wouldn't be much and they would rise back up later. If you can give me one example of an old card going for thousands of dollars in its old version that lost value when it was reprinted and the original version of the card hasn't come back up, I will retract this statement, but unless someone can show me that, I'm not budging on this issue. This "Our old cards are going to take a nose-dive in value" is just flat out wrong.
8:30 also not true. There are also examples of cards that were REMOVED from the reserved list. So the status as a reserved list card would have been "baked in" to the card, but we see the same result as the above. The original versions of the card do NOT decrease in value, and often sometimes INCREASE.
1. Selling cards in randomized boosters is more like gambling rather than selling collectible items. That's why Wizards is now selling cards directly to their customers via Secret Lairs. 2. So... you're saying Wizards dropped support for the old formats because they can't make money from them? Of course they can't make money from them, the Reserved List is prohibiting them to REPRINT cards that could be sold in new boosters, which, in turn, would make them money. 3. The prices of the Revised duals will drop for sure, but I'm not convinced they will completely tank, since these are white bordered cards with the original artowrk and the reprints would all be black bordered with new artwork. 4. I'm still not convinced people who were forced to buy Reserved List cards are just going to dump all the mid-tier ABUR4 cards just because Wizards reprinted those cards with new art. If these people are not playing with the cards, they can already sell some right now and get other cards they want. But they don't, because they know the value of the cards is increasing over time. 5+6 even Dan acknowledges that we cannot determine what the market will decide if Wizards supports the old formats and reprints RL cards. 7. Let people sue, Hasbro will wipe them out. 8. Wizards does not directly acknowledge the existence of the secondary market, because they'd immediately admit to the gambling aspect of the boosters. That argument won't hold in court. 9. nothing to add here 10. Erm, they reprinted a few RL cards in foil up to 2010, and then, after the investor uproar, Wizards tighten the RL. What happened with all those reprinted foil cards? Did they magically disappear from the market with the tightening of the RL? No they didn't. The supply is now higher by whatever 0.00X%, but no one sued. It's still a valid point. 11. Risking a lawsuit and losing a lawsuit are two separate things. Again with the hypothetical thinking. Regarding proxies: maybe Wizards should start selling proxies for all the RL cards: i.e. cards that have a special symbol on them to signify they are proxies (like the Mystery Booster cards) plus a mention under the legal text in the lower right that these cards are proxies.
@@RogerOver9000 I assure you I understand Dan Bock's position very well. I'm not sure why Edwin is taking his side, since Edwin claims he's not an investor. Sure, Edwin knows a thing or two about how markets work and some of his points are still valid. I'm just offering counterarguments to what Edwin an Dan are claiming. Prove me wrong first, then claim I diddn't understand anything of what was presented here.
As an attorney I like my defendants to have deep pockets, it makes them a better target Also I'm sure Hasbro doesn't want to get into a discovery war. They won't walk over a Plaintiff in this case. If it is worth it to sue because of dimunation in value of a RL collection, the Plaintiffs would be well heeled to go to war.
@@cousinjimmy2638 As a lawyer, maybe you can provide some insight in regards to how Hasbro would lose any of these cases initiated by desisting the Reserved List.
@@Xenocyde3000 promissory estoppem, on top of which they lose in discovery. I'm sure there is a lot of embarrassing crap that can be unearthed and exposed in discovery.
You clearly have not been watching what happens to rare original prints when they get reprinted. There's 30 years of easy to verify market data proving you wrong.
Why do a lot of these responses sound...gate keeperish? Print cards= get more players pretty simple. Old school will not last forever we are a finite number of players all aging. The legacy community was hit hard due players not being able to get into the format do to cost of duel lands unless they were lucky enough to purchase them prior to 2005. Also the whole "sue" blah blah would never hold up in court...the judge would laugh it out. A promise, by itself, is not legally enforceable-that is, a court won't award damages for a broken promise. ... The Reserved List is a promise, but it's not enforceable as a contract because it lacks consideration. Wizards didn't promise to forego reprinting certain cards in exchange for something.
You are completely incorrect. If what you said were true there would be no point to promissory estoppel ever existing. Want proof? The RL is still intact after these years. The promise is tightened. It will never be broken.
If you openly call them proxies I 100% support you playing with them and using them, with a small note that the artists who did those images are still losing out on being paid for their work. If you make your own proxies, paying nobody for the creation of them, 1 step better. But if you don't openly call them proxies, you are intentionally lying, deceiving those around you. Deception is not a good thing. If you don't make them yourself your are supporting a counterfeit system that undermines the whole community and rips off original content makers. Playing with proxies is the RIGHT solution to the RL mess... but there's a right and wrong way to do it....
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer Also, for some context, I bought all of these cards years ago when I didn't have much cash, so my buddies and I could play paper modern. I actually regularly buy revised dual lands now because I eventually want to play paper legacy legit. I still think it's a great way for kids with not much money to experience those cards, and hopefully like me, they eventually buy into the real thing.
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer please explain how buying off RL via second-hand market directly supports the original artists, in a way that reprinted RL direct from Wotc would not?
The reserve list has been broken through technical loop holes. You named all the cards in this very video! As far as suing for damages...Do you think Hasbro really is shook about a lawsuit. They are sucking players dry and making more money every year. There not scared of some street lawyer suing over Black lotus secret lair edition.
@@benjaminlehman3221 there would be both good and terrible impacts if it was removed. Some people would rejoice, some would be devastated. It's too bad you don't seem to show compassion for the damage that broken promise would do.
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer in the event of any real damage a lawsuit could occur because promissory estoppel is a real thing and hasbro could easily settle if needed. However the event that would cause list to be removed would be the game is truly dying so even reserved cards would lose value.
Why defend people who choose pieces of cardboard as a financial investment? It's a card game. We didn't defend beanie baby collectors... And those aren't even critical pieces to a game! I don't see how prices dropping for older cards is a bad thing for the community at all. The people who collect older cards for their value aren't playing with them, they're collector pieces. If they are playing with them... Then I highly doubt they'd complain about making the reprints in order to keep the game/format alive.
Wrong. It's not "just a game". It's both. It's a game, and a collectible. Always was, and still is. And it does not matter if YOU care or not. It's about the product they made, what the marketed it for, and based on that customers bought it. MTG was literally sold as a collectible AND a game. Stop saying it's just a game. That's directly WRONG. Gamers don't have the right to say screw collectors. And collectors don't have the right to say screw gamers. BOTH viewpoints are valid because BOTH of them were intended uses of the product. To really drive this point home... You need to recognizes that MTG is STILL sold a collectible. That's literally the reason they are sold in randomized booster packs and NOT as a complete set. Dominion is "just a game." You by the SET and get ALL the cards. Magic is not. Now that point is made... I'm not picking a side. I'm literally standing in the middle telling you that people who love MTG as a game don't have the right to suddenly declare MTG to be "just a game" and "screw collectors/investors." Just like they don't have a right to say "screw gamers."
the game is collectable and tradable before playable. even deckbrewing is a more vital aspect than deck piloting. and collectors and players aren't a split dichotomy. people collect to play, and anyone who thinks players aren't collectors and so screw them, aren't going to give WotC the money for product necessary for the abolishment to be worthwhile. and the game only thrived enough to be current and available to you today because of people willing to invest in it decades ago. you sound like a kid refusing to eat his vegetables and wanting dessert.
I think it is ironic that people say it is just a game and not a collectible and then turn around and say we want to remove the RL because we want to play with the cards and collect them, we just don't want to spend a lot of money to do so. If this were not true then everyone on that side would be ok with just playing with proxies. You get to play with those cards, enjoy the game, and don't have to spend a lot of money to do so.
@@brewcrew7550 Yeah they say "it's just a game" Then I say, well then... here's a proxy game piece. Let's play the game! to which they say "I don't want that." Why? "Because I only want to use real cards, and my favorite ones are the coolest collectible ones in Mythic/Rare." And that's when I blank stare them in the face... wondering if they even realize what they just said.
Thoughts on implementing complete proxy use by official Legacy and Vintage events? If the goal of the event is to determine player skill, then an uncompetitive factor such as player wealth should have no bearing on competitive gameplay. I'm not sure I can name any other competitive game in which the players are required to purchase distinct game pieces. It's always confused me.
I actually support proxies FULLY and wish more player ran events kicked off. When I play with people, even on live stream live playing with fans on my channel, I always allow the use of proxies.
Okay several things on this video: The formats can thrive even with the reserve list: While sure they "can" there is a maximum amount of players that can afford this, and removing the reserve list would massively increase the accessibility. Especially considering the other formats that want to use these cards like commander. Looking at MTGO where they print these cards a lot, legacy and vintage are significantly more popular. Everything about pricing: This doesn't matter to WOTC's bottom line, they don't get any money from the value of their cards on there, what's more, any reprinting of these cards will create a massive sales boon. Everyone would want them. The only thing that could hurt their monetary value would be the lawsuits, and those are suspect as to whether they would succeed, this would be consumers against a company, Hasbro to be specific (and those historically go poorly)
While I agree that the internet is becoming an echo chamber of self-affirmation, the algorithms even encourage this and it IS a problem... all true. But I definitely get a LOT of dissenting views on these videos and I respond to people attempting to actually answer their question, address their points, and if they make a good point I had not seen before, acknowledge it. After all, the point is not to be RIGHT, the point is to be CORRECT even if that means my original stance is wrong. Unfortunately, what I end up getting is a lot of emotional, angry people who are misinformed by other RU-vidrs, angry at the situation, and not themselves really that willing to see the topic as it really is.
As a business analyst, I am quite sad to see such a sad state of affairs in this wonderful game. Although, of course, it's all about making money, I'm quite disappointed that investors just couldn't leave this one alone. It's such a shame.
This whole argument is flawed at best. Even in your video you acknowledged Demonic Tutor is really expensive now, even if it wasn’t expensive when it got taken off the Reserved List. When cards get reprinted the price will go down, sure. But in time the prices will go back up -- The appeal for Alpha, Beta, and Unlimited cards are still there; original printings of legacy cards. That will retain the value of those cards even if they’re reprinted (especially if the reprint uses different artwork). It’s not like the people buying A,B,U printings are using them to play anyway. They’re buying them to put them on display at most. (“Yeah sure I’ll play with my $8000 Black Lotus! What could possibly go wrong!”)
You clearly are new to this topic. You don't even understand the concept of lost gains. Let me make it simple. Two different cards, both $1000. One gets reprinted, the other does not. Reprinted card drops to $500, other stays at $1000. Ten years go by... original copy of reprinted card finally gets back to $1000 each... but the other non-reprinted card is now $2000. You didn't even realise this happens and it's only the beginning of things you don't understand on this topic.
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer I am new to MTG. But I am familiar with the concept of lost gains. I play a different card game with an ever fluctuating market, Yugioh. Say I spend $300 on a meta deck-- I get a year of using that deck, and then suddenly a few cards in that deck become banned, or cards get reprints. Now the deck is worth nothing. Deciding whether or not I want to sell my $300 deck before such changes happen to prevent lost gains is part of the dynamic of investing in a card game, or any collectible card game for that matter. This idea that the cards on the reserved list should stay to prevent “lost gains” is ridiculous. Especially when the people who own A,B,U cards bought them before they spiked in recent years (Ex: Unlimited Black Lotus being $300 in 2002) -- It comes down to the owner of an expensive card to decide whether or not to sit on their investment or to sell it in the event of a change in value. This also applies to investing in stocks too, the market is always changing.
@@basilniebla5535 "This idea that the cards on the reserved list should stay to prevent “lost gains” is ridiculous." That is a different topic. Whether or not something is reasonable is not the same topic as whether or not something is legal and will get you sued. First, let's make that distinction. The Reserve List was made to protect secondary market prices. Full stop. That's why they made it. They said that's why they made it. If you or others think that is a bad call... that's an modern opinion on a previous action. But it pays NO BEARING onto whether or not something will get you sued. Now about the example you gave... you buying a $300 deck now... WITHOUT a promise of no reprints is not the same thing as buying a 28 year old card, with a tiny print run and a LEGAL PROMISE never to reprint. Those are not the same thing. Stop conflating them. People in the last 24 years purchased Reserved List cards under a legal promise they will not be reprinted. Period. Finally, going back to my original point... which you seemed to just gloss over... a card going back to a previous value is NOT THE SAME THING as if that card never took a hit to begin with. If WoTC was to reprint RL cards, and price would drop... bam. They are liable for damages and they WILL be sued. They know this damned well which is why even after all these years they don't even HINT that the RL will ever EVER be broken. Hopefully... you will realize you didn't understand this topic like you thought you did and stop trying to argue. Your previous viewpoint was wrong, it will NEVER break. Want to find out why and learn? Or keep arguing bad viewpoints that lack historical perspective and data?
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer 1> Your video was in response to a video on why he thinks the Reserve List should be axed -- your arguments were to prove why he was wrong. You gave your argument, and I commented with mine. There is no absolute way to predict how much prices will tank. It could be 50%, could be 10%. Could be no change at all due to the collector value of the original printings of cards. Coming from my card game I’ve seen High Rarity “premium” versions of cards keep their price despite the reprints. At the end of the day it’s the seller’s and buyer’s who decide. 2> They made a promise to their players. That’s just it though, just a promise. That in of itself is not a binding Legal Contract (Lack of Consideration). The only grounds to sue would be Promissary Estopple, which is itself not a Legal Claim-- “I spent a large amount of money on a collectible because I believed the promise made by the company would protect the value of my item.” I would argue this is the equivalent of “I spent a large amount of money at a casino and lost some of it, and now I want to sue them for my losses”. People will Sue WotC no doubt 3>The prices going up after they go down is a relevant point to this discussion. Because what is the argument? A price goes down, WotC is liable for losses? That’s only applicable if the person immediately resells the item when it drops. Going back to my analogy about investing in stocks, that’s how it goes. Sometimes a Stock goes down, do you keep it or do you sell it? If you keep it it’ll go back up. I thought the whole point of buying these cards as an investment was to flip them later further down the line anyway. It’s clear that neither of us are changing the other’s mind. Long story short I don’t agree with your viewpoint. And I have done research on this topic, reading articles, watched other videos, looked at price history, looked back on my own experiences with Card Game Market changes, etc. I know Wizards won’t get rid of the list, as much as I would like them to do.
@@basilniebla5535 No, you really don't understand like you think you do. Damages are based on fair market value at the time of lawsuit. You clearly don't know how legal damages work. You really think a judge would say "sure players lost net 5 billion of value... but hey MAYBE it will recover in 10 years so I'm dismissing the case..." LOL NO!!! It's fair market value at THAT moment. Promissory Estoppel gets STRONGER the more times the commitment is made. The case against WoTC with PE forcing an implied contract has gotten tighter every day AND the total potential damages for consideration have gone parabolic. Over 10 billion now. Your casino argument clearly shows you still don't get it. (Likely just refusing to accept) Nobody promised you anything with gambling. Nobody promised anything with YuGiOh. MTG RL cards has a legal publicly made promise backed by the biggest potential PE lawsuit the eorld has ever known. This would be THE defining case for PE as it's the PERFECT EXAMPLE of why it exists. In every way. Public promise, repeated thousands of times over 24 years. Massive investment as a reaction, acknowledgement of that investment, and a total potential damages way past the net worth of the company. You said ONE thing correct... nobody knows the total sell off percent. It would not be uniform, some cards would get destroyed, others only lose a little. Each card would have it's own reasons for loss. But everybody knows they would tank on the whole, if for no other reason, for fear of tanking. You totally miss that RL not breaking is a factor priced into the cards. Any YuGiOh cards selling for $510k like the Alpha Lotus? No... and that's why. And going back to an earlier reply... also showing how much you don't know on this topic... YES people ARE buying Black Lotus for 8k each and playing with them. Those are CE and played copies. Nobody plays with a mint lotus for 25k unlimited... they buy a played one for 8k and use it. Thousands of videos online and tournaments all the time using them.
It seems to me that you are taking older cards as both collector items and as game play items and to me that just isnt realistic. As the overwhelming majority of players cannot afford the orignals and proxy them anyways. Which at the 12 min mark you even explain that people are currently forced to buy from those sets. (and if you cant youre just out of luck) However plenty of people already proxy them for apart of their own game play. So they are apart of game play standing alone legal or not. They then could sell you a legalized proxy as a reprint and profit from it and then people will still pay thousands on thousands for the collector orginals. The OGs as its own standalone hobby of collector items. I do not believe these need to be one in the same. If you believe in proxies then by default you believe everyone should have equal access to cards. So yes everyone could have a teir 1 deck that is worth thousands as a collector item but virtually worthless monitary wise to game play. (Meaning its cheap to biy and sell) Then one could argue that it isnt really much of a collector item. When id say it is a collector item just because it has been collected. Largely it seems the concept of exclusivity is what people falsely correlate with collections. For exclusivitys sake simply being 1 of 100 made anything is enough to keep a price of anything up collection wise to a party interested in collecting that exclusive 1 of 100 piece. And if the price is baked in as you said then the forces acting on it you like to bring up every talking point are moot. That or the price is in fact not set in stone and negotiable. Now im assuming you didnt mean to contradict yourself and therefore ill conceed i likely misunderstood what you mean when you say "the price is baked in". To me that phrase directly means that Item X has the cost of Y. The price then is Y no matter where item X goes or who wants it for what reasons. Which to me seems absurd. Now a company can do that to their products upon inital sale. Beyond that though its gonna have all of those other forces acting on it as you mentioned. Which brings it back around that of the price is negotiable and your goal is to buy lets say a black lotus cause you want to casually play with it. Right now you could amazon a proxy for 5$. And i know people who have. So in my play group alone and im assuming in many other plenty of people are using it and it doesnt really affect the grand scheme of things. But thats a proxy. For that same 5$ wotc could sell you essentially the dame same product. A dummy for game play for players. That orginal is still going to be the only ones of its kind. And to people who would love to collect it it will still be worth thousands. It seems to me there is a by desgin arrangement of the game and collectors items known as MTG to be both of them at once. Which is casting an obvious unfair advantage of those who have the means to own pricer cards. In summary it seems to me that youre viewing things as they are in the sense that magic is a game and a collectors item and the prof (and many other youtubers) viewing it as what they and myself believe it should be. A game with the option to trade for collectors items and statuses. It seems to almost be two different discussions. It seems to me that you also at least in some part agree that it should be a separate case as you support proxies which is entirely for gameplay use. There is no collector value in a proxy. Just money saving and maybe supporting a local artist you commsion to draw it up for you. My over all feeling towards this is wotc pushed themselves into selling a game as a collector item (or maybe the otherway around depending on the product) and the result is likely that a significant portion is essentially locked to anyone unable to afford it and as such its a demo game. An extensive demo but still a demo nonetheless. A demo game that I love to play. I think you were right near the end of your video. That it wont go away because of all the money tied up into it. I also think the other youtubers are simply pushing to hope and offer lets call em escape attempts for wotc to free them in including everyone. But the hope is what prof likely holds onto. That so nany other youtubers and players that i know hold onto. Im a very casual person. It took me 2+ hours to watch your video as i had to look stuff up as you went along and adjusted my comment accordingly. Even i hope one day to play with a real legal reserved card. But as the systen currently stands it wont happen. Short of me not buying magic packs ever again and simply saving that money years on end instead and no longer building new decks in the mean time. I guess i should thank you for the dose of realism though as i prefer hard truths to soft fantasies. (Not really but i can pretend right?) Lastly this is the first video i watched of yours. I am glad you arent very aggresive or in your face when you say someone is wrong. Disagreements do not have to be fights. I appreciate firmness in ones views and points they make even ascerting them as facts to ones contrary. You managed to do so without calling anyone names which to this day l... bravo.
I only skimmed your post so far... but you seem to be missing that MTG from WOTC changed from those days to today. Then... yes it was and remains both collectible and a game. Both valid and both intended. Today, they are clearly leanimg towards gaming not collecting as much. It did in fact change. But just because the nrw cards being made changed does not negate that original cards WERE made and sold as rare collectibles.
I would like to bring to the attention of the court that original artwork Black Lotus is $225 ($467 for foil) and vintage reprint is circa $11 on MTGO. It's almost as if the rarer card kept its value after a reprint!
Keeping some value is not the same as keeping all value. Imagine somebody smashes into your car and says "hey it's still worth money, I'm not paying for damages..." Get it?
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer Indeed, but if you look at the numbers foil Black Lotus has actually gone up from $90 to the ~$400, so it's almost as if they did more than "kept some of the value."
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer that's not an apt comparison. The affect of a reprint is more like the natural price decya of a car after purchase. When you reprint a card, you aren't *damaging* what other people already own. You are creating more of it, which yes lowers the value of those that already exist, but only to those with used versions. Look at classic cars VS. Their modern versions. The modern versions are valuable, and perhaps change the value of the classics, but because the real classics can never be made again. You can build a classic car with entirely newly fabricated parts, but it will never be as valuable as that classic that was built during that time period. A M24, Limited Print Black Lotus would be Value able, it would even lower the value of the original Black Lotus, but that original Black Lotus would *never* experience the kind of price change paranoid collectors like you believe they would. We have proof of this in nearly every collectable card game in existence. And no, it's not different just because it's. Magic.
@@coebaltraizure6137 You have a massive oversight thinking EVERYTHING with price is just supply and demand. That's absolutely positively WRONG. Price has to do with FAR more factors then just supply and demand. There is a reason the Mona Lisa is worth millions and a painting done by me yesterday is not worth jack squat. Both have the EXACT same supply. You miss the topic of different factors being "priced into" a final market price. A new printing of Serra Angel will definitely NOT touch the price of an Alpha Serra Angel because the Alpha Serra already experienced it's price drop from reprints. Alpha Serra would also not be effected by a RL reprint because the existence of the RL is not part of Alpha Serra's price. But Black Lotus has in fact never been reprinted after ABU CE, and it's in fact part of the RL. Either one of those changing would impact the price greatly because they are both factors that currently exist. Also for those other collectibles you are talking about...NONE OF THEM ARE PROTECTED BY A RESERVED LIST PROMISE AND THAT'S ENTIRELY DIFFERENT. I should not have to point that out, but some how you TOTALLY missed that fact. Those other collectibles have no RL promise, Black Lotus and Dual lands do. NOT THE SAME THING.
Dude, you can't spend 5 minutes talking about how Magic is SO COLLECTABLE and then say that a 1% selloff will completely destroy the market. Pick one. I'll also point out that up until recently, there was NO support for Commander until it went completely bonkers in popularity. BoP argument: I hear what you mean about being priced in, but what about the judge special reprint of Wheel of Fortune that was mentioned? The Splenda argument is invalid. Once Splenda is declared deadly, (almost) no one is going to be hoarding Splenda because there won't be any more. That *extremely rare packet of Splenda* you see in 30 years? Yeah, sure, collector's item, novelty. Any demand for it? No. But again, you're discounting the *collectability* of the cards. it's the reason Alpha is more expensive than Beta is more expensive than Unlimited. Period. Back to the support argument: 1) Commander. 2) Look at what the prof said about the MTGO 'reprint' availability. I'm out, sorry, not going to bother watching the rest.
Most of your post is pretty incoherent. I'll focus on your first point and see how this goes. Collectibility and Market price are correlated but not completely dependant. Market price depends on the ratio of supply and demand, which each move for a variety of reasons... collectibility is only one factor. Something can become more collectible but drop in price if yhe supply increases faster then demand due to collecting. An item can drop 90% and be collectible (like reprints of Secret Lair cards), or go up 200% in price while NOT being collectible (like gasoline). You over simplify the topic and results in your misunderstanding.
collectors shouldnt be catered to. so even if their cards lost value (which if you look at original prints in other card games that reprint contantly and dont lose value) why should WOTC care? they wont lose any money in fact if they reprinted the RL they would make tonnes of money off that. this is a game first and foremost. WOTC doesnt make it collectible the players do
It's mostly a game now. It was not when those cards were sold. WoTC is not catering... they are avoiding legal liability. Did you even pay attention to the numbers? Clearly not.
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer how would they be legally liable? they didnt sign a contract saying they would never reprint the m. also again if you look into other games that have reprinted cards the originals almost always go up in value
@@WorldofTomorrowInc you need to learn about "implied contracts" in the legal system, which promissory estoppel is one of them. Watch the Reserve List video by RU-vidr Law
So just discovered this. The Howey test from the SEC "a person invests their money in a common enterprise and is lead to expect profits solely from the efforts of the promoter or third party." And that "price appreciation reaulting solely from external market forces (such as general inflationary trends or the economy) impacting the supply and demand for an underlying asset generally is not co sidered 'profit' under the Howey test." So basically what this says, is that if you invested into mtg cards and they raised in value because someone bought them out, you did not make a profit under the eyes of the law according to the Securities Exchange Commission and you would have no grounds on which to sue WOTC for reprinting those cards. The reserve list is a lie, reprint the reserve list, bankrupt mtg 'investors.'
There was never any attempt by anybody or any promise made by anybody that MTG would be a security or financial investment similar to a security. The Howey act has NO bearing in MTG. What you do have is a promise not to do something, investments made on that promise, and knowledge of those investments. You also have the promise re-verified many times over. Promissory Estoppel implies a contract not to protect an asset... but to not take a specific action that can cause damages. Not at all the same thing. Nice try though.
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer except it absolutely does because the Howey test would fail in that there were no damages lost because it is not an investment so there would be no reason to sue for a reprint. If you claim the Howey test has nothing to do with mtg then you should be fine with a reprint because you wouldn't be losing anything. And suing because they went back on a promise would be fruitless because you acknowledge that mtg is not an investment and has never been recognized as such by wotc. So either way, you're still wrong :) Reprint the reserve list. Bankrupt mtg 'investors.'
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer here's a good video for you to watch. Everything he says can be used as the same argument for mtg. And if you deny that, you are frankly just dumb at that point. m.ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-C6aeL83z_9Y.html By your logic of no promise being made that mtg cards are an investment, you are 'investing' on a system with no protection because reprinting the reserve list would cause no damage due to it not being a real investment. Sounds like you got suckered into a ponzi scheme. Sucks to be you.
@@MusicalBoarder You are lost. Something does not need to be a financial investment as recognized by specific plans and laws to have damages. You didn't buy your car as an investment. But if a person smashes into you and causes damages you can sue them for the loss. Get the idea?
@@MusicalBoarder in case you need more proof (and I assume you do...) Here is the requirements of the Howey Test. 1. It is an investment of money. 2. There is an expectation of profits from the investment. 3. The investment of money is in a common enterprise. 4. Any profit comes from the efforts of a promoter or third party. 1. Usually yes. But not always MTG is traded for many things. 2. Absolutely no. Investors in MTG hope for profit, but THERE IS NO EXPECTATION OF IT. It's a speculative risk. Period. 3. No, investment is not via any common enterprise. People just buy cards. 4. NO the profit does not come from the promotor. It comes from the free market. So no... nothing of the Howey test or official investment asset rules applies to MTG.
How can you say that what is holding back vintage is no support from Wotc with such a pricy entry point to the format, it is just not accessible... Also proxies is not an option, imo if you use proxies you might as well never buy any cards and that just takes the game away :/
Because WoTC pulled back support for Vintage format 20 years ago and that is when it's decline started, long before the prices were that high. And I have stated again and again in my videos... people only start with proxies and almost ALWAYS move to buying real cards. For the same reason people buy foils and also because nobody wants to use fake cards.
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer I get it but it doesn't change the fact that most of people who would be interested in vintage NOW couldn't afford it and would have to stick to proxies
So you are going to ignore the last 24 years of people telling you these cards are going to go up, they will never be reprinted, and knowing full well many of them are the best there will ever be at what they do? The DOW Jones is also now 28k per share. Average home prices are around 400k in many places. That's the way the world is. It's time to stop complaining about missing the boat and see what boats are there. For the Old School Format specifically, I have made many videos telling people who are coming in with nothing how to join it. Starting with budget decks that cost less then $200 and are actually competitive. I made a whole video series about that. I also made videos telling people how to trade up to better decks as they slowly added more funds to their collection. So, yes Vintage and Old School are crazy expensive. BUT on the complete flipside the money you put into them will VERY likely not go away. If you can be competitive while growing your collection and expanding the decks you can build, I would argue it's money better spent then the new cards. But yes, WoTC will not support them because they make no money from them and only increase the complaints. Which is why proxies are the answer.
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer Thanks for taking the time to write your answer ! I knew Legacy could be played at a budget level but I didn't know for Vintage i'll definitely go find the videos you are talking about ! And I'm sad for missing the boat but I simply wasn't born 24 years ago and really regret it, i tell my parents every time I would have my power 9 and dual lands if they would have been more hasty to make me haha
@@xantra3072 Sorry, slight mis-communication. Vintage is not the same format as Old School. Vintage is any set ever printed and a list of restricted/banned cards. Old School is only sets made in 1993 and 1994. Reprints are allowed if they are the same artwork, same card border, and non-foil. ABU (original base sets), Arabian Knights, Legends, Antiquities, The Dark and Fallen Empires. Old School decks can cost far more then Vintage decks (like well over 100k) yet they can lose to another Old School deck worth 200 or less. In Vintage there is a much higher base price to really be competitive. Closer to a few grand at least. But the money is MUCH better spent invested in Old School cards, because they are original print stuff and they are going UP in value, not down with reprints. Here is the video series I made for budget Old School decks. ru-vid.com/group/PLzEy2xrioI9vzI1EbiJyH4HPn9CFnIxh9
I don't care if people lose money. I want a duel land. I'll say again: I don't care about wonky card capitalism. I wanna play magic. People who fight tooth and nail for the reserve list are the lucky few who own these expensive cards and say oh well to those who can't afford them.
What if WOTC just...printed a better version of every card on the RL? Like a 0 cost artifact that taps for 2 white, instead of one, with a completely different name, set ect? It doesn't reprint the cards on the list, so that promise is never broken. Any damage done to the list is simply the risk of investments.
That would just nerf some other cards and sink those price. Lion's Eye Diamond gonna lose in value and usability if you just make an ''artifact buffed black lotus''
It’s not 1.17 billion dollar loss, the prices of dual lands would probably be cut in half, and secondly, the amount of those cards that exist in the hands of people who would want to sue wotc, that aren’t destroyed is probably half of that original amount. So you end up with a couple hundred million dollar loss. That’s equivalent to the amount they would make in a few years of selling reserved list cards.
No and no. Nobody really knows what the value of the Revised dual lands would drop to. It's all speculation. It COULD be down to like $50 on average which is an 87.5% decrease. Who knows. But besides that... remember I was only talking about a tiny fraction of the card pool that would lose value from RL abolishment. That's not even all the cards in the Revised set! Much less Alpha, Beta, Unlimited, Arabian Knights, etc etc etc to Urza's Legacy or what ever. In addition remember that I said "potential losses." which is what they are. For your other point... it's a no because it would likely be some form of class action lawsuit. Somebody or some group of people starts it, wins and then extends the winnings to anybody else who can verify damages etc. You have seen those kinds of commercials when a lawyer says "if you suffered XYZ loss in T time frame.. call us because you may be entitled to compensation" And again, I was being very generous saying they would get an extra 25% profit from the RL cards. Likely not even close to that.
there's also foreign print dual lands, arabian and antiquities cards worth thousands each, collectors and international edition... plus all the power 9 would reach another billion. the english reserved list not including foils is estimated at around 5b, and any loosening of the policy would affect the entire list, even if they just pulled one card and didn't actually print more, because the values are based on market perception.
The way to look at it is even if it is 10% of that estimate at $170MM, the revised dual lands make up 1-2% of the total value at best. You would be looking at $17Billion as a very conservative estimate. Get the idea?
Here's my thought process...forgive me for I am not a doctor in finances or economics. Let's say I buy $100,000 worth of RL cards for my collection, and then the RL is done away with. At first thought I might be a little weirded out by it, but unless I was planning on selling back those cards for profit, reprinting RL cards did nothing to my bank account. I already lost 100 grand when I bought all the cards. These people with 10s of millions of dollars worth of RL cards (as collections, who don't sell that often), I have a hard time believing they would financially suffer, especially when they have 10 million extra dollars to buy cardboard with. They can keep the cards they bought for crazy prices as collector's pieces, but deleted the RL and let people who aren't whales get the game pieces they want. Also I go back and forth on proxies, on one side it feels wrong because Im pirating the game, and the other side is if I could print proxies myself that look and feel like normal magic cards I would never buy another magic card again.
you are completely looking at it wrong. "Damages" has absolutely, positively NO bearing on your net worth. You can be Jeff Bezos and if I broke his window it's still an expense to him and I can be made to pay for it. RL cards today are bought while WoTC has an active promise to never reprint. If they do reprint and break that promise... and prices collapse... that will mean a loss of value based on a broken promise. That indeed is valid to sue for. The lawsuit would be a class action lawsuit. People grouping together in one unified legal action which shares the cost. Proxies are not pirating. You are not selling them so there is no profit. And they are not tournament legal cards. And nobody is being deceived since they are NOT meant to decieve (they should clearly not appear as real cards) And no... my experience after 20+ years of using and seeing others use proxies is that NOBODY wants to use them. What you said does not happen... where people only proxy and never buy again. People end up buying both for the same reasons foil cards command a premium, and also because nobody wants to feel cheap and not valid by using fake cards. People enter the game because they have a proxy... but then upgrade to real for those reasons when they can afford it. THAT is what happens.
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer i doubt there would be many people (at all) that would have even paid close to 70c on the dollar for their substantial RL collections.
@@gibsongs23 People are paying $4000 for LP condition Beta moxes. Even Unlimited ones in LP condition are going for $1500 to $2500 www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=Unlimited+mox+sapphire&_in_kw=1&_ex_kw=&_sacat=0&LH_Sold=1&_udlo=&_udhi=&_samilow=&_samihi=&_sadis=15&_stpos=34787-9248&_sargn=-1%26saslc%3D1&_salic=1&_sop=12&_dmd=1&_ipg=50&LH_Complete=1&_fosrp=1 And as for your "rational brain" comment... I have heard people for 25 years call me crazy for spending money on MTG. And yet my collection has gone up more then any other investment I have ever made.
I think the main problem people have with the reserve list is that Legacy staples are on it. I'm a Modern player myself but I would potentially be interested in getting into Legacy if it didn't cost anywhere from $5,000-$10,000 to do so. Those prices are alot higher than what 99% of people are willing to spend on a hobby. Yes, you could argue that proxies should become more widely used, but at the end of the day I don't think proxies will ever have widespread acceptance in any magic community. I think reprinting reserved list cards, especially format staples that people need, with new art is a great idea. Could it decrease the value of some of those cards? Thats a possability. However, ultimately WotC should always put the health and accessibility of the paper game above the needs of card investors. If they don't people will simply lose interest in older formats like Legacy, especially outside of Magic Online, that could otherwise be very popular.
You are exactly right that Legacy is one of the main formats that drives the RL debate. You are right that there are too many required RL staples in the format and that's what kills it. You are also right that people don't want to play with proxies. People want real cards. Your big miss... is that you think the RL will break because people want it to. It won't. I'm sorry others mislead you... they were wrong. It won't break. WoTC will never take that risk, the losses MASSIVELY outweigh the benefits for THEM. That's why proxy support ends up being the next best option. It's where you arrive once you fully accept there will NEVER be a RL break.
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer the problem with your argument is that it hinges entirely on the idea that proxies will ever be fully supported by the MTG community. some people (not including me and most commander players) will feel cheapened when they sit across from someone who's using proxies vs someone who actually owns the cards, too them it feels like being a nascar driver racing against a dude who's using a car that looks like it just came out of a blender but still has the same power/strength as their million dollar nascar which they spent time to get, meanwhile dumpster diver over here just pressed print. heck they hiss at the mere IDEA of a proxy and i doubt a good chunk of them would change their minds, and if proxies were allowed in anything then it kind of defeats the purpose of the RL. i wanna make it abundantly clear that i UNDERSTAND that the RL will never break, i don't expect it too and i doubt it ever will be (fully) broken. but the idea that this would all be fixed via proxies being supported is a blatant lie outside of casual play.
@@MTGDuelist8870 I did not miss that. You missed my point. I know that exists... nobody wants to be "that guy" with the proxies when everybody else has real cards. THAT is the very motivation that causes them to start upgrading to real and even swapping out more powerful proxies for cheaper but less powerful real cards (like Echo of Eons for a Timetwister proxy...) The point is... the proxies got that new player in the door. They joined the game... the next step is just a natural progression. I've watched it happen thousands of times.
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer since when has magic ever had a "new player" issue that would be fixed by proxies encouraging people to buy these cards?, maybe getting people into a format like legacy or vintage is an issue for new players but you can literally build decks for extremely cheap in ANY other format if commander is anything to go by. hell people in commander are 100% fine with proxies. it's an issue of unrelenting dogma among some of these people who have these extremely expensive cards and have been playing for 20+ years vs the people who haven't been around since the muraganda petroglyph's were written and can't/won't/refuse to go hand-over-fists for 1 copy of an original dual land.
@@MTGDuelist8870 Dude, did you really think about this post before making it? The "New Player" issue is completely real for the very formats you just mentioned, Vintage, Legacy and Old School. In Vintage and Old School a top tier deck can LITERALLY cost 100k and if you cannot clearly understand that as an issue keeping people out then stop reading already. Next, this video was clearly targeting those formats... just look at the cards I proxied. It's obvious that's the very real problem I'm solving. So your entire post is complaining that other formats don't need this when those same formats were CLEARLY not what was being targeted?
Much of what was stated in this video is verifiable facts and logical conclusions in context to how the legality actually works. There are opinions as well, but I tried to clarify what was opinions and what was not. For example... when I state how Promissory Estoppel works (Getting STRONGER with time as more public statements are made) that's not opinion, that's literal fact of how it works and such understanding is void in the professors video.
no, we would love it. You, rudy and danny chang would not. You can disagree all you want and read the shit you want. The fact is they have reprinted reserve list cards in premium products. They have manipulated and changed the list. Not one lawsuit to date has won...soooo....
You are working with bad information. RL is not going anywhere. Notice none of us are selling any. Sorry dude. You missed it. I spent years telling people this would happen. And it did. I don't have to convince you of anything. I know the RL will never break now. This video was for YOUR benefit. feel free to keep yelling from a mountaintop.
I have few reserved list items in my collection, I basically don't care about the topic, but this discussion gets me wondering, how would these collectors claim value to their cardboards when, pre-Secret Lairs, Wizards never put a price tag on any card, never referred to the second market pricing, and now somehow WOTC must be responsible for few idiots that buy coloured paper for thousands of dollars, and carry a pending "lawsuit" over their shoulder as the price(often manipulated by scumbag-investors) is going up and up?? This looks ridiculous from a distance, and people who claim they'll sue WOTC are entitled lunatics...did someone force them to put their life-time savings into a card game? pff..ridiculous.
Clearly, you are new to this topic. Let me help you. There's dozens of ways to price a card at any condition. The market uses those methods EVERY SINGLE DAY. TCG Player charts and Ebay Sold auctions are probably the most common two. WoTC VERY CLEARLY watches secondary market prices... they just don't admit it. Their masters products have clearly targeted an ROI based on secondary market prices of cards they include. A lawsuit would include a process called "discovery" where legal teams would crawl through WoTC's internal notes/emails etc. It's a strongly held belief that WoTC REALLY DOES NOT WANT this to happen. Because they clearly pretend not to know damned well about something they watch every day. Other lawsuits would likely be opened based on what was found during discovery. "never referred to the second market pricing," Dude... the entire Reserved List happened because of WoTC clearly and publicly recognized secondary market impact. In the actual words, that they wrote.... with their own hands... they VERY clearly spoke of dropping secondary market prices and RL was created to stop that. Secret Lairs is just the most obvious example of WoTC pricing based on secondary market. To anybody paying attention it's been clear for DECADES that WoTC puts money cards in sets to lure players to buy them, and holds back other money cards for future sets. "did someone force them to put their life-time savings into a card game? " LOL no... WoTC made a legally binding promise and then the consumer market spent 2 decades proving those cards have a growing market value. That's it. Like it or not, that's how things are and they cannot go back. I'm not the guy "defending" the RL... there is nothing to defend. It's not changing. I'm the guy telling you what people have known for years now. Feel free to keep smashing your head against the wall if you want.
Physical objects are not immortal. If you have a Reserve List card, that means you would have to keep it in a storage area roughly equivalent to archival collections. Considering this, I highly doubt that many would be able to properly store the card the same way a museum would. In fact, I argue that even if the card gets reprinted, it would still fundamentally be in a different set. An Alpha Black Lotus is not the same as a Beta Black Lotus and not the same as an Unlimited Black Lotus. Here, the value is more focused on the specific set, rather than by virtue of being a Black Lotus card.
Mostly true. The specific print matters a lot. Some cards would not be touched with more reprints, like Beta Serra Angel. Other cards would get crushed by reprints, like Revised Dual lands. The difference is that many who want to own certain cards mostly for playing with them have no other options. Those are the people who will sell old and buy new given the chance. So it varies card to card.
If you want to treat a trading card game like the stock market, then treat it like the stock market. All investments come with risks. If WOTC decides that it’s better for the health of their game to abolish the RL that’s well within their right. The bottom line is that the company has nothing to lose from the value of cards on the secondary market going down, and everything to gain from getting new customers to purchase new reprints of vintage cards and reinvigorating formats that are on death’s door. At the end of the day, your Alpha lotus is still just as rare as an alpha lotus with or without the reserve list. If it goes down $10k in value, but 10k new people get to play Vintage with a new printing? That’s well worth it.🤷🏼♂️
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer Whatever man. You tell everyone in the comment section that they’re wrong. Doesn’t make it true. There’s certifiable evidence of these facts in literally every collectible ecosystem. A reprint of a Babe Ruth baseball card with alternate art is not automatically worth as much as his rookie card. A $0.02 copy of Charizard from the newest edition of Pokémon is not worth the same amount as a first edition holo. All real world accounts of this prove collectibility can coexist with reprints. Yes, the reserved list is “baked in”to the value of the cards, certainly. But as I said before, investments come with risks. The stock market “bakes in” certain events all the time too, but sometimes they’re wrong, and the market corrects itself. Yes, card values would go down, but as I said, again, an alpha lotus is just as rare as an alpha lotus before and after the printing of 20 million ~Vintage Extreme Masters~ lotuses. They will retain their value as collectibles. Do I realistically think the reserved list will ever go away? No, probably not. Will I have sympathy for people who are killing eternal formats for the sake of hoarding value? Also No. You can’t call things objectively wrong in an argument solely based on opinions and feelings lmao.
@@reecehuff8030 My replies to you are short because we I have already taken the time to make videos explaining exactly why you are in fact wrong. MOST of the time repeating this stuff to angry and jealous people in the comments is wasted effort. Even when you make it clear they don't accept it.
And if they don't abolish the reserved list eventually most of paper Magic will die as a direct result of Wizards catering more to collectors than actual players.
They can just go back to the original reserve list policy where they have the ability to print premium copies. They could put them in $600 collectors boosters.
As right as you may be, I think you're missing the Professor's point a little. In the short term you are correct, but in the long term it would bring in more players and make the "collectible" cards more valuable as the demand would naturally increase (irrelevant to the fact that it may have been in a reserved list or not). This may even bring back the support for older magic. But again, don't expect these changes in the short term. I agree that "investors" would lose out big in the short term. Collectibles will always be collectibles.
Easy solution is that the game eventually dies because everyone but the 1% is getting priced out. Investors will keep their value and people would no longer complain about card availability because not enough people would be playing the game. Ignoring Vintage and Legacy, I know quite a few people who have quit due to card prices and WoTC practices in just Modern and Standard.
Dual lands won't go down in value. More people would play the format keeping the same or more demand for older cards cards as bling. Ya know what will kill the value of the dual lands? When the format dies lol .
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer i have revised duals. 4 trop. 4 volcanics, 4 tundras. Looking for the 4th underground sea. but..... I also have nobody to play legacy with because it costs 2,000$+ to make a serious deck . the format will die, and my cards wont be worth much at all.
@@thomasdaniels6247 people have literally said that for 20 years. The format is very niche but the duals did not go down in value yet... because Revised duals were supported by the RL. If RL was to break revised would tank. They are NOT that rare compared to ABU and CE/IE.
I've read Dan's piece and much like he isn't a lawyer (and I'm not an American lawyer, but am a law graduate in the common law tradition), so I'm a bit skeptical at the analogies he uses to justify promissory estoppel. Would love if he, you, or anyone else could cite a legal precedent or case that is similar to the RL "promise", because I really want to see things from your side. Disclaimer: Am an EDH player with no real stake in this fight, because my playgroups are perfectly fine with proxies anyway.
Again... NOTHING in this topic is new. People have known the legal answer for years and years. Here's a video that came out several years ago from an actual patent lawyer... DIRECTLY addressing this topic. Enjoy learning about something that the Prof appears to have no clue about. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-5HR7ABQIUbc.html
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer I am no lawyer by any stretch, but isn't it disingenuous to look at a single lawyer giving an opinion and act like it is definitive? I mean, this seems like an issue where if you ask a dozen lawyers, you might get a dozen answers - especially with the nuance that is probably resent.
@@gondoravalon7540 That's exactly what I'm trying (and apparently failing) to tell you. WoTC's lawyers looked at it and decided to steer TOTALLY clear of breaking it. Several people I know who each own north of 10 million worth of cards directly told me their lawyers looked into it and what the result was. Finally RU-vidr law (years later) made a video publicly laying out some of the case for a valid lawsuit. It's NOT just that one lawyer. I keep trying to tell people... this has been known for decades.
Exactly. The prices are artificial, especially with so many prints of those cards available worldwide. These are not collector's editions. And if all collector's would be in the need to get money from the cards and sell the cards not many players would be willing to pay the prices.
Terrible attitude. What if the collectors take the same position, "who cares about the players?" You are completely ignoring that MTG was made to be BOTH a game, and a collectible. You as a player don't have the moral right to say "screw them." The truth is that WoTC created this inherent issue when they made a CCG (Collectible Card Game.). What you should do is recognize that's what it is... CHANGE your perspective and make peace with the FACT that MTG is a CCG and not just a game. Your frustration is misplaced because your perspective is incorrect.
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer While your point is true, the ones who in fact shot first were the collectors when WotC printed Chronicles. Their attitude was precisely that: "who cares about the players? My collection just lost a lot of value!" MtG is a TCG but WotC realized early on that the market needed an injection of cards to be available so they made the first reprint set. What current-day collectors should be grateful for is WotC not having reprinted things like Mishra's Workshop, Tawnos's Candelabra, the dual lands, etc. in Chronicles. Because then they'd be reprinted into oblivion just like City of Brass.
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer it's not an attitude, its a genuine question. It's clear that you're on the MTG finance side. Re-reading the biased opinions of someone that shares your biased opinion isn't a debunk. It actually puts you in a pretty bad position. "Reasons why the Proff is wrong" numbers 1 and 10 are completely at odds with one another. If MTG won't reprint cards from the RL because they don't act on behalf of community pressure then why is threat of a lawsuit (I.e. community pressure) somehow valid? And that's only the tip of the iceberg. The reality is that the recent trend from MTG is to cater to the collectors, because they believe there is more money in it for them. This is why the amount of premium products are on the rise as of late. The average player cannot afford to get the premium product so it's largely controlled by the MTG finance crowd. If the RL cards were reprinted it would almost certainly be done as a premium product. So the MTG finance crowd would have control over this as well. The only way to guarantee the price of the cards dropped would be to manipulate the market (I.e boycotting the product) which could in turn drop the price of the product down to a number that is more affordable to the players, who are not as concerned about the value of the cards. The problem is that doing this would be self inflicted and hurt the case of a lawsuit. The MTG finance crowd would have to invest and put more money out than they feel they should.........kind of like the position the players are in now. I've got no vested interest in either side. I've been playing pauper and limited events almost exclusively for almost 20 years and haven't had to spend any significant money on the game. I don't really care one way or another. If you're going to do a "response" video, you're going to have to do quite a bit more than this to convince any reasonable person that your biased opinion is better or somehow more accurate than what the proff has asserted. At least he was expressing his own views and not parroting someone else's comments. The number of players in MTG far outweigh the number of collectors. You're going to have to do better than this sway any players to stand up for the poor helpless collectors that have to take a small hit on their investment.....or who knows maybe the value of the RL cards go up? Based on what you've done so far, I'm not convinced the Proff is wrong. I'm sure he's not 100% accurate, but hand-waving his opinion away because you dont agree with it, is not a debunk. Make a better case......starting with answering my original question, instead of assuming that I'm adopting an attitude about you or your comments.
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer and so you don't think I'm avoiding your question after you "flipped the script" on me instead of answering my question..... Collectors should care about players because if MTG wasn't first and foremost a game, there would not be a collectible market for the MTG finance people to make money off of. What sort of collectors market do you think there would be if MTG was just a bunch of fantasy art cards? Who would collect cards with pictures of random dudes with mullets holding bats, if there wasn't baseball? It's the game that creates the market in the first place.
For the legal argument, the RL is not a binding contract since there is no consideration. At most, WotC would be liable for promissory estoppel, which would only cover the short term price and not the growth or long term price difference. To sue, you would have to prove direct damages to your prices. Allowing proxies doesn't break the RL, it will impact low end RL a tad, but it will increase player participation in those formats. It is not like there a bunch of events for vintages anyways. Most of the demand for these cards is from collectors outside of maybe revised duals, but no one will sell their highly graded p9 alpha over it. How about just allow proxies for cards over $x only and adjust it accordingly?
There is a contract if PE sticks... PE is literally called "implied contract." If PE is proven.. there's a contract. Yeah the damages would be how much the cards drop in price as a direct result of a RL break. That could be easy or hard to prove based on how it's done. I REALLY wish more player ran events were cool with proxies being allowed. I do everything I can to push for that.
I am so proxy-positive. If a piece on your car broke, and the manufacturer stopped making it and you could buy it second hand at a greatly inflated price, OR you could just 3d print a copy for pennies on the dollar, what would you do? Would you be able to enter it into Nascar, probably not.
This is so easy, so functional reprints aren't allowed...the precident has already been set that "snow" additions are not functional reprints... create snow duals, for instance, then ban the old school dual lands in all formats...ureka!!!
Don't you think if this was "that easy" it would have been solved over 2 decades ago? WoTC wants to get rid of the RL, and 99% of the players want it gone too. CLEARLY if it's still there there are problems with what you are saying. I suggest you spend some time learning what they are.
Legacy and Vintage can not grow, because the cardpool (especially dual lands) is literally limited by number and price. It is not alone an issue of wotc's support.
Totally incorrect. Revised duals would take an immediate hit, likely greater then 75% value and then never recover. Alpha and Beta would take a short term hit and then eventually recover. Unlimited would be somewhere in between AB and R.
@@Syne111 nope. If underground sea were reprinted at mythic rare today, all the big shops would sell it for 1-200 less than the revised price then the ebayer will start their auctions 50 under that causing the market to remain about the same. They would have to reprint duals 2-3 times before the price would start to be affected
I've said it once and I'll say it again. Ive seen Rudy, Vintage magic, and openboosters commentary. Reprinting the reserve list would benefit more formats, however, the reason why old formats don't fire is because if your playing a $5,000 deck and the prize payout is 3 new booster packs then no one will play. Yes I do agree on reprints because as prices go up more and more people are getting scam by counterfeiting. Newer cards with special features would eliminate and/or reduces counterfeiting. Reprint will protect wotc trademark. If wotc doesn't protect their trademark then they can lose. Promissory estoppel is a joke. If you try to sue you will lose because wotc can say they are more and more counterfeiting hitting the market. Wotc will win because of trademark laws and protection. The main fact is new magic is totally different than old magic. The mechanics of old magic is different slower pace and much more enjoyable than new magic. New magic games last 1 to 4 turns and the game is over compared to old magic.
"the reason why old formats don't fire is because if your playing a $5,000 deck and the prize payout is 3 new booster packs then no one will play." I don't think the prize is the reason Vintage/Legacy/Old School events don't fire off... it's more that the cost of entry is HUGE, 99% of the MTG players ASSUME the formats are broken, and WoTC actively does NOT support them because those formats don't sell new cards. "Newer cards with special features would eliminate and/or reduces counterfeiting" This is proving to not be true at all. Some of the easiest cards to counterfeit are new cards. Old cards are nearly impossible to fake because the paper stock does not exist, the bad quality printing (which un-intentionally made them SUPER difficult to fake) etc. "Promissory estoppel is a joke." Says who? Players who are angry and want RL cards? Every answer I have heard from people who hired lawyers to look into it clearly gave it enough credibility such that 1. WoTC has never touched it since the last changes, and 2. People with tens of millions invested felt safe based on the answers they got.
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer its easier to spot a counterfeit with new cards. Lgs wont fire vintage tournaments because players say if I'm playing a $3k deck why is the prize small. Plus not every magic player can pay for $3k deck. You guys are totally wrong about the reserve reprint except that wotc would lose its credibility.
@@captainfailtv Well that's your opinion and you are welcome to it. But don't hold your breath. It's been 24 years with no RL break and every action taken was to purify and solidify the list. And after 2015 the prices of RL cards exploded so much it would bankrupt them to break it. Before 2015 there was SOME chance... now there is NONE.
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer no it wouldn't bankrupt them that is delusional. First off you have to prove you lost money and in order for that to happen you would have to sell your cards physically and show proof.
@@captainfailtv your comments make it clear how much you don't understand. You don't have to sell an asset to show losses. Who told you that?;? It's very easy to prove RL break was the reason prices drop. 27 years of going up with a sudden violent worldwide market drop the day after RL break....
Man we ain’t talking about the whole reserve list, but just a few staples would make it easier. It’s hard for wizards to support a format that doesn’t look like it has a lot of support and a lot of support won’t come unless new cards flowing into the market. So basically while I do agree they shouldn’t terminate all the reserve list a few cards could be great for longevity and health of current hard to get into formats. Cards like mox diamond, duals, just the few playable. Maybe nothing unlimited back because that’s to far but Urza’s block and such could be great.
You're not wrong that would be a good thing for the game overall. What you miss is that WoTC legally cannot do it without risking MASSIVE backlash. They are stuck, and no matter what anyone else tells you it won't happen.
Professor is not much for "debates". Don't get me wrong, I like the overall content of his channel, but he is not aprone to invite different viewpoints into conversation.
The "BIGGEST" problem with reprinting the reserve list is when you do it one time why not do it every year as a special set (with a big price tag) soooo every body can buy these cards so with one time you can do it every time and then all get out race to the bottom nobody buys it again because you have a new price memory
Reserved list doesn’t have to exist in a world of $2500 beta Shivan Dragon (last listed Alpha Price is $6000). Your investment is protected stop screwing new players with dumb paywalls and reprint the damn cards
You have no clue who you are talking to so I won't get too offended at your comments. I'm the guy who spent years warning people this was coming, spending decades trying to get players to support playing via proxies, and creating and listing budget decks helping people enter a format. Said another way... I'm the guy HELPING people GET PAST the paywall. My videos are not about keeping a paywall, it's about identifying the problem and correctly understanding it SO you can work around it. The Shivan Dragon example does not work for reasons not understood by the professor in that over-simplified example.
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer but why are you so afraid of a reprint tho? I just want to buy high-quality proxies directly from Wizards, that's all. All other TCGs like Pokemon, yu-gi-oh, DBS, have always had reprints of the expensive cards, with a different code or a stamp that identifies them as reprints. Why are you in favor of limiting new players to have to pay 1000's for a piece of cardboard that won't affect the chronological order of what cards came first? Don't be the selfish cardboard owner that wants those cards just for you to enjoy because you got the chance to buy them when they were cheap, and don't want new players to enjoy the artwork or the playability of such cards.
@@ByGraceThroughFaith777 Sorry, your entire perspective of me and this topic is so off base it would take 30 min to explain it. And I even just got done explaining to this guy how I'm the one making it easier for new people to play and you even missed that!
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer are you in favor or against the reserve list? I am against it and would like wotc to reprint those cards so I don't need to make the proxies myself. Do you agree with me on that or not? If you think reprints will lower the value of collectors (which it won't) then you're siding with the mtg finance crowd and not the players. I don't see how my perspective is off as you say. Maybe you need to re-watch your own videos.
@@ByGraceThroughFaith777 you over simplify, binary thinking. Here's proof. I both want it to stay and go. Both at the same time for valid reasons on each side. That's why this topic is difficult, because it's complicated. I want people to have access to game pieces I don't want old cards to lose value. Those two desires contradict, which is why the answer I push for is proxies because it fixes both.
I agree on Dan's points but I'm sure you're 100% wrong on wotc allowing proxies to be played in sanctioned tournaments. The reason is very simple: if I can proxy a tabernacle or a dual to play legacy or commander, why wouldn't I do that for much cheaper cards (but still relatively expensive) to play standard ? that would actually mean that wotc is discouraging buying their own product and that's just the dumbest thing ever. It's certainly less likely to happen than the RL getting abolished. in the big picture, I think the main concern of wotc isn't RL nor possible lawsuits, but finding a way to keep 'paper' magic profitable while it's getting apparent that the game can be played and enjoyed just as well in the digital (and much cheaper for them) version of MTGO and arena. Fact that in recent years they're constantly unloading superexpensive products (like throne of Eldraine deluxe or Vip double masters) is the proof of that struggle. 'paper' is getting old, and the only way to keep it interesting is investing in its appeal as something special and unique (unlike digital products that can be replicated infinitely and as such 'feel' a lot less valuable). from this point of view, abolishing the RL, lawsuits apart, would sound like damaging this appeal and therefore their own product.
First, I was not talking about using proxies in sanctioned tournaments. I was talking about casual play, player-ran tournaments, etc. Just like the Old Schoolers are currently doing with CE cards as we speak. Second, WoTC used to legally allow proxies in tournaments when you had your real card right there to prove you owned it. Third, I'm speaking from 20 years of experience watching people actively use proxies in small groups. You have a theory, I have 20 years of DOING IT. And it always works like I told you. Nobody wants to play with proxies. So they stuff their deck with as many real cards as they can and if they decide they love the format they end up buying real cards and swapping out the proxies. Almost... every... time.
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer when was the last time wotc allowed that ? and for what format ? I doubt it was in a widely played one. My point is still valid when I say that wotc won't ever support the use of proxies. knowing that people use proxies is one thing, supporting by explicitly saying you can use them instead of the real card is another one. and it's never gonna happen.
I get the impression that MTG owners of OG cards are the only ones who need to feel special that they own the only copies worth $$$. Good for you, but you didn't invent the game, nor own the rights to print any cards, so if Wotc decides to re-print some of those cards to attract new players, good luck suing...
1. You'd need to prove damages (burden of proof is on the plaintiffs) 2. You'd need a powerful Lawfirm with access to deep credit lines 3. There was no signed agreement 4. It will cost millions to fight and 1-3 years to litigate assuming theres no settlement. 5. You're most likely going to lose in the end 6. All this assumes you can even find a lawfirm to take the case 7. You'd need to find expert witnesses.
Thanks for a thoughtful reply, most people who don't like what I said just reply with illogical or unresearched garbage. Since you took the time I'll give you a thoughtful reply. Point by point. 1. 100% correct, proving damages is definitely the crux of the lawsuit. This IS in fact a grey area that could end up being easy, or very difficult. The most clear case for easy to prove would be if WoTC hard broke the RL and the secondary market tanked in a way that broke all previous 30 years of price movements. This does not mean a lawsuit does not work, it means that IS the challenge. 2. A RL break could be a lawsuit for damages of up to 10 billion and I personally know people with collections north of 20 million in value. The money is there for the lawsuit. 3. You need to research Promissory Estoppel. It's a whole section of law that means "implied contract." RU-vidr law did a wonderful video on that years ago, just look up "RU-vidr Law" and "Reserved List" and you'll find it. 4. Very likely accurate. Millions to fight and several years. Again, see my answer to #2. The money is there. 5. NO! If the lawsuit was destined to lose then WoTC would have broken it decades ago. Again, you really need to research PE law... the longer it goes the more evidence there is, and the STRONGER not weaker implied contract becomes. We now have 30 years of WoTC very clearly promising publicly not to break the RL. Chances are it would succeed actually. 6. Again, see #2. There is billions in potential damages and MANY PEOPLE with 20+ million dollar investments into RL cards. With that kind of money you can ABSOLUTELY BET there will be lawyers to take the case. 7. Dude... as if there is not 30 years of WoTC promising in public spaces, in video, in documents, in private and public messaging, in every way possible they will not break the RL. You are WAY off base if you think that is hard to prove. Again the "more difficult" part to prove is that a price crash is literally because they broke the RL. THAT is where all the effort would go. Final thought you should ponder on... people with millions invested who paid lawyers to look into this have known this for decades. It's ignorant RU-vidrs seeking views that misinform all of you and make people think a RL break can happen. It won't. Go watch that RU-vidr law video.
Thats what I said. Use proxy. I use proxy for my 3 underground sea and time vault. "Unlimited set" I can prove that I own the cards. I don't use the real one because I don't want to damage them.
That not only is a valid reason to proxy... that kind of action was official DCI policy for a time in the past. WoTC would literally let you play with a proxy if you had the real card with you to prove you owned it.
@@Alabaster_sb The more expensive the card is on the secondary market... and the more REQUIRED it is to compete in a format... the more valid the use of proxies are.
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer he said that he uses proxy because he doesn't want to damage is cards. The same could be apply for all cards. The point of getting/having a card isn't to play them?
I agree with your thesis. but i simply would never spend over 1000 euros (or dollar) for a single card because of the collectors, the true ruin of this game (i'm sorry to say this, i don't hate them, but it's the truth). Legacy staples like tabernacle, which is a card that i need to play in lands, the deck i would like to play, costs over that price. And i said tabernacle, bur what about drop of honey or mox diamond that is in spike right now? The only hopes to complete a legacy lands right now are: 1) get more money from your business, something you can't decide. 2) collect money in order to buy a single piece of card, something that personally i will never do because it's a card in a card game, not a car, not a guitar...a piece of card, that you need few cents to reproduce identically (except for the point that you can see if you use particular light ray and blablabla) 3) hope that one day that card is get banned or replaced by another new print, something that i really hope one day will happen (legacy staples must be only non reserved list cards in my opinion, because otherwise that format will simply die in time). Tell to people who organize tournaments to accept proxies. They would say: man, we spent hundred dollars for dual lands in order to play tournaments, how dare to ask to us to play in a tournament with proxies? So the ways are 2: give up or sacrifice something in order to complete that deck (unless you're rich). Hoping one day dual lands and the other rl cards get banned is not an option that i can decide. It's an investment buy these cards? I don't care, i simply will never spend so much money for a single piece of card. You would support people who play proxies and i thank you for that, but who organize competitive tournaments will never do
The 30th Anniversairy set didn't violate the RL. But... WoTC did in fact promise not to reprint even the CE non-legal set... and they clearly broke that promise!
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer Yeah, I was mostly joking with the original comment (while also not remembering the gold border exemption clause in the RL promise when I made the comment). Still the greediest move I have seen in any TCG. And I play Yugioh, a game which Komoney... I mean, Konami, is responsible for
Thanks Tavis. In the description I said there could be based on how the responses go etc. There is certainly MORE to point out that's wrong with the perspective the Prof was given. And there's also quite a lot of information that the general MTG public (as demonstrated by their replies to his video) don't know about.
I don't care what happens afterward just that the reserved list is destroyed eviscerated incinerated and discredited. Let the days of rage begin. #ReservedListDelendaEst
@@DAsrada i realy hope you will find some help, love, person who care for you. And if you have it or find it...embrace it. All love to your poor soul full of Hate about 20 cent paper Cards you can copy and buy as a Fake offically as long as you dont lie and try to sell them for your own profit 😏 while every 2 Month new products come out for that you need to pay about 100-300 at least to keep up with alle the new good Cards like Allosaurus Shepherd thats costs over 100 while INPRINT....yeah throwing out about 3000+ for cards inprint just to complain for cards THAT ARE 27 YEARS OLD and unique and ARE WORTH THEIR VALUE THX TO THE RL! Allosaurus will cost a Fortune until it will get rerprinted. The longer it take the more the card will worth. Maby in 1 year maybe in 5. Good luck with your Money and Decks to play without this Card that are in its color. And again for you: I wont pay this for this card. Will most of my green deck be weeker without this card? Yep for SURE! And will get up...until they reprint it and then your are either fu...d or had played without for some years and where always weeker then your deck could have been.
I'm an attorney I wouldn't mind putting my two cents worth in. How do I get you some information. A lot of people are getting promissory Estoppel wrong. You are pretty close but there are some factors that seemed to be missed by the MTG community.
As for promisory estopple the amount that can be sued for is equal to the total damages caused due to the breaking of the "contract. So the math here isn't technically correct. Lets assume 1 person owns all the reserved dual lands . 289,000*10=2,890,000 Avg Price in this video $404.70 2,890,000*$404.70 = $1,169,583,00 would be the total value of the cards. Not the amount that can be sued for. Factoring in what a 10% drop in value would make each land average $364.23 a loss of $40.47 So the total would then become $40.47* 2,890,000 = $116,958,300. The total amount sued would nearly equal the proposed revenue gains however the plaintiff still needs to pay legal fees and knowing how most corporations are the legal process would be dragged out a fair amount. I'm not to well versed in the court of law however I do believe that once the case is filed that would cement the amount sued for. This would not stop wizards further printing the dual lands causing prices to go down further. All of this is if 1 person owns all of the reserved dual lands. Which would technically make promisory estopple mute as there would be no way to percieve the "damages" done as unless you have personally sold the dual lands (and if you had there would be no grounds to sue as you could have very easily taken the cards off of the market.) none in the market have sold and thus the price of the cards have the potential to reamain at their current value. Anyways I highly doubt it would be possible to even get everyone together to file a joint case.
You completely missed the point. The basic paper napkin math I did was ONLY to show the POTENTIAL DAMAGES massively outweigh the possible profits. That was the entire point. That's why I only used 10 of the some... 500 different reserved list cards to make that point. That with EVEN ONLY 10 of them the total market cap was already into the Billions. And it's even worse then that... because I didn't even add into that the Alpha, Beta, and Unlimited dual lands. I also didn't add in the CE/ICE dual lands. Again... that's only 10 out of the 500+ RL cards, and not even all the copies of them!! Not to mention... no power 9 were in that, no special 2000 dollar Workshops, 2000 dollar Tabernacles, etc etc etc. In addition, it's entirely likely the Revised dual lands could drop all the way down to $50 each. The ratios of rarity between ABU and R do suggest that's possible. Especially when they are off color, too light, missing border, etc. A class action lawsuit is harder when the potential damages are small. But we are talking billions worth in a lawsuit here... For a PE implied contract that has been publicly stated, re-affirmed, and done with FULL knowledge people were investing again and again and again for 24+ years. No... it would not be hard.
But here's my argument, I'm a normal player... I'm part of the 99%. I just wanna be able to use these cards. I don't care if the prices go down, that doesn't effect me. If it'll hurt someone else's investment, than they should trade stocks not cards. People hoarding these cards for profit is pretty shitty and anti community. Thought this was a card game for everyone. I'm a collector, but it's purely for fun. I'm not trying to flip stuff for profit. Shit card game, shit community. Wizards basically created the market for counterfeit cards and it's all because of this dumb list. Hold on tight to your precious pieces of cardboard, the normies and I will just keep buying proxies. Cards aren't worth shit if no one's buying them.
I take it you're in the camp of "collectors" right? What's selfish are people buying these cards, not to use, but to flip for profit. My game collection is for my personal use and enjoyment, not to pull desirable things off the market, in the hopes of making money. A card game for everyone should be for everyone. Just because this game is big, doesn't mean it will be forever. Using a card game as an source for investment is pretty stupid.
@@AmishDancer hurt my feelings? lol no... I'm not a collector, wrong again! Magic is not just a game. Strike three! Magic has always been a pay to play. I'm not surprised you missed that.
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer okay so I’ve been reading all of your replies to people and this one tipped me off. You claim “please don’t attack me” but then you are in the comments literally shitting on people the entire time and acting like your some deity who that when you speak it becomes instant education for people. How dare you say someone else is being selfish when that’s all you were the entire video and in your comments. “No DoNt HuRt mY iNvEsTmEnT. I’ll sTiLL HaVe My CaRdS aNd YoU WoNt” You cannot demand respect for your points and opinions, NOT FACTS, and not dish that back out to people. He was sharing his opinion as everyone else has, and you have selfishly attacked everyone that does so. Yes you win, you have the cards, you have the money and you always will because if everyone could buy a stock knowing it would never go down ever then everyone would..you think that makes you smart cause you got in early enough? You don’t share a love for the game like the 99% does, you just care about your money (and yet calls others selfish) when the 99% spends all their money on this game cause we love to PLAY it. “WiZaRdS DoEsNt SuPPoRt YoUr FoRmAt” well duh, why would they? Why on earth would a company support a format that people can’t fucking play? Proxies aren’t an answer as they aren’t pieces of the game we love nor are they legal and they never will be in sanctioned tournament play. Here’s the reality, yes Magic was different back then as it wasn’t really a game, but guess what, it was still a game at the end of the day. You chose to invest in it as you say “YoU CaN InVeSt iN AnYtHiNg” and there is always risk when investing. Wizards stupidly made a promise once there was a tiny demonstration of that risk, and now you have just forever growing money and no risk what so ever. They should just take back this old promise and reprint them anyway because fuck you, evil exists in this world. Evil to you is risk and you will experience that again some day, and I can’t wait to watch it happen to you. Don’t respond to me. I don’t care. I don’t need to be EdUCaTeD by you.
Well said Deep Blue "Thoughts on implementing complete proxy use by official Legacy and Vintage events? If the goal of the event is to determine player skill, then an uncompetitive factor such as player wealth should have no bearing on competitive gameplay. I'm not sure I can name any other competitive game in which the players are required to purchase distinct game pieces. It's always confused me." Just ban the whole reserve list from all formats except for Vintage. There wouldn't be any more demand for reprints and the cards could truly be just collectibles and not playable cards only elites can afford.
I 100% support proxies. Although my proxies are obviously fake to a person who is around cards often but to newbies they could be tricked so I sharpied the backs of all of them to the point they can’t even be used to trick anyone
Just a question. So if the broke the reserve list, and the cost of older reserve list cards drops because people sell out of the older more expensive versions is that not the price of the card being affected by the actions of the community and not necessarily the actions of wotc? Also if someone that had a large position of a specific reserve list card lets say 1000+ copies and they dumped them all too market would most of the arguments not apply to this situation as well? Could other collectors sue this person? Also I know nobody would sue for them tightening the reserve list in the past, but could wotc not use that as an example of them making modifications to it in the past in order to justify making modifications to it in the future?
You are correct to question how one knows a market sell off is purely organic or directly a result of a RL break. That WOULD be a question in the court room. The defense would argue they are not connected and the prosecution would argue they are. In this case... it would be EXTREMELY easy to prove they were connected. Both because just looking at a chart the sell off would occur directly after the public first heard about the RL break... and the sell off would be massive and sharp down (much more then ANY recent trend) and finally because you could easily ask the people selling why they are selling. There would be videos about it, threads about it, statements made during large sales, etc. Your next question is a person dumping LARGE amounts of RL cards into the market with no actions done by WoTC. No, that would not trigger any lawsuit. There was no promise made directly (contract) or indirectly (implied contract like Promissory Estoppel). No promise, no lawsuit. Final question, changes to the contract. No. You are literally looking at this topic entirely wrong. The broken contract is one thing... it's the LOSS OF VALUE that constitutes as "damages." No damages... nothing to sue for. If WoTC was to break the RL and NOBODY sold off cards... there would literally be no lawsuit. Because nobody was financially damaged as a result. To be clear though, there is absolutely, positively NO WAY that value would not tank as a result of a sell off caused by RL break. In addition to that last point, to make it extra clear that the damages based on WoTC action is what matters... EVEN IF WoTC just floated out an article saying "we are thinking about breaking the RL" the selloff would result, damages ensue, and lawsuits would be triggered. That's even when the RL was only SPOKEN about being broken... not actually broken. WoTC very clearlyl promised never to break it. ANYTHING they do that provably makes investors think it will break and causes damages could trigger a lawsuit. Does that makes sense?
It would be interesting to get legal advice (a law firm's opinion) on the reserved list. They could cite legal precedent and then the speculation on reprinting the reserved list will be over.
That has actually happened! ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-5HR7ABQIUbc.html That's the frustrating part about all this. It's all been answered before. NOTHING new is coming up in this debate. The Prof just dug up an old debate with bad information and started getting people worked up again. :(
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer I saw the video. It's very interesting. A lawsuit by collectors would be very expensive likely costing millions in legal fees to the collector. It would be a lot more complex than a standard shareholder lawsuit, in proving damages (think about all the types of cards and condition levels) and you may need to sell your cards to realize damages to sue. Additionally, it's not likely a similar issue has been litigated (an attorney could do a search) so there is no legal precedent (meaning, for example, there may or may not be a quasi contract) so both sides (collector and wizards) would have significant hazards of litigation. It seems overly expensive and I think most collectors wouldn't sue. With that said, it seems the hazards are high enough that it's not likely WOTC would reprint. Just my thoughts.
@@joeb1522 thanks for sharing. I believe the collectors will likely have to sell to prove/realize the damage/loss. That's how everything else in this world works with assets (accounting and tax). Either that or Hasbro has to be bankrupt which would be a pyrrhic victory at best.Seeing as wealth appreciation and protection appears to be the driving factor for the pro RL, i don't see that happening. Though ultimately the RL may never change (again). If power creep maintains it's course, i can see that there'll be cards rivalling or superceding most of the RL one day.
@@adolphus28 No, wrong. You do NOT have to sell to prove damage or loss. As long as there are clear ways to show market value that's all you need. Who ever told you that you must sell to prove losses? dossfirm.com/damages/ Look for this part: "Example 2: Under the same fact pattern in example 1, the elderly woman never sold her variable annuity"
Says who? The blue dolly is just a rock. Just because you don't value something does not mean others have to agree. What if your opinion was wrong? Everything in this world is "worth" what somebody else is willing to pay for it. That's the truth.
Someone HAS sued Wizards over reprints.... When they reprinted the Nalathni Dragon in the magazine, a guy that had bought a lot of N.Dragons at Dragoncon sued Wizards hard! I didn't hear how the lawsuite ended, but he sure as hell sued them, so, yea, people have sued Wizards over reprints. I admit, I don't know of anyone who sued over the Alpha Uncommons being reprinted, but just because I didn't hear about it didn't mean it didn't happen. In fact, did you hear about the Nalanthni Dragon lawsuite before now? If not, then there is at least one lawsuite against Wizards that you didn't know about, and there probably are a lot more!
The argument for economics and the dual lands isn’t as simple as you say. Realistically if more dual lands means more demand for legacy or vintage then your supply curve increases don’t mean price drops. Also I think we need to parse legacy and vintage as formats I think you will have real potential for growth in legacy, I think vintage has never had a big presence.
He kind of hints at this with the tug of war between supply & demand. It's definitely not a perfect comparison, but there would be money lost and gained. The eventual price point might settle somewhere in between (and as you say offset somewhat by the demand increase). It's impossible to know without WotC actually just doing it.
@@timhsiung Exactly Tim! Evan yes the reality for dual lands is of course more complex then I was making it. But don't miss the forest through the trees... the point there was to make it VERY CLEAR that WoTC has far more money at risk then what they could hope to make in profit by abolishing the RL. People often have NO clue what the market cap is for RL cards. They just assume it's not that high and WoTC would make a boatload of money. So simple math like what I showed it meant to clue them in that it's a risk $100 to make $1 kind of situation. As for the actual values of the Revised dual lands... REMEMBER... they were worth $15-$20 for most of their existence. I think it's entirely possible that with reprints the Revised dual lands could fall from an average of $400 each to $50 each. That would be a MASSIVE loss of value and not far off the math I did.
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer Do you think there is a real argument that certain reserved list cards would be massively played so would be/ are always in high demand verse others. I think what I forsee is that cards like dual lands are almost universally wanted and played. From commander to Legacy to cube drafts etc.. I think the cards that have the highest value, the power nine, and cards in Arabian Nights, Legends etc... are not really played or are played by a very small subset of players. So I agree any supply increase to those cards and honestly 90% of the cards on the reserved list is something I would be weary of and I believe holds true. I just believe from the commander and legacy community the biggest bar to entry is the dual lands (with select few other cards). I believe the demand is high enough such that barring a massive reprint these cards will always hold value if not increase. I think what am saying is for those cards the market cap we know is very high by just looking at the fact that their are millions of commander players and legacy, when supported by WotC had a large following.
@@evanmorris2422 Now your head is in the right space. ALL the RL cards would drop initially. The % drop would vary massively per card. Some might drop 95%, some 5%. And after the initial drop, some would indeed recover, some never will, some might continue to drop. It all depends on the market forces of supply and demand for EACH CARD. Every card is it's own case study because each card is reprinted or not, allowed in some formats or not, a really good card or not, required as a playset or not, etc etc etc. It's a safe bet that an Alpha Black Lotus will not drop much. But Revised dual lands will get CRUSHED and never recover. That very special mystique which exists for original print cards is not there for Revised Dual Lands.
it's a shame that the prof can huckster bad information for ad revenue when a more valuable video like this will reach a much smaller audience because the people who have that pipe dream just want confirmation bias. i think the professor did a lot of damage to his reputation with that video. thank you for making a reply with the information people need rather than want, and managing to be very respectful about it.
You think that video did damage to his reputation?! hes done worse and DAsrada is right. The profs video got a lot of vintage hoarders panicking with response videos.
Idk if I'd make prof out to be the bad guy for it, really everything was very well-intentioned. It's okay to be wrong about something and he's right at the end of the day that the reserve list is bad. A youtube video is pretty harmless and it's good to bring up the issue and try to find a way to move forward, again, even if he's got the wrong idea about how to go about it. Magic is first and foremost a game but it's being treated like the stock market by people who couldn't even give a damn about the game. Not to say that all investors don't care about the game. It's just that these same people who would try to file lawsuits against WotC if they ever tried to get rid of the Reserve List are the ones who care more about monetary gain than the game. Money makes everything more complicated, unfortunately.
So if they put a dual land box topper in each box of four hundred-dollar vip boosters it should not affect the value of the original boosters, because you'd STILL have to pay as much for a new one as an old one. Kind of like how the Masterpieces wound up more expensive than the originals, and didn't(?) reduce the price of the earlier printings.
No, you don't understand. If WoTC even MENTIONED reprinting RL cards their prices would collapase and likely trigger lawsuits. It's not about finding the right price. It's about not being able to even hint at breaking the list much less doing it.
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer Okay, you have a point. It's not like they could gently break the idea and carefully explain things. They'll do anything to avoid PANIC!!!
The only thing I will say is how can wizards know the value of a card if they do not acknowledge the secondary market. 😁 oh course I am just being funny. Get video!
Yeah WoTC has been playing this cat and mouse game for decades now PRETENDING to not recognize the secondary market. But anybody with two brain cells knows damned well they probably watch it every single day.
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer PLEASE READ THIS! I knew someone who knew people working at Wizards back in the 1990's, so I KNOW that the SEC actually started an investigation of Wizards and scared the hell out of them! It was over allegations of illegally influencing the secondary market! That's the reason that Wizards stopped printing prices in Scrye (their own magazine), which they used to do BEFORE the SEC investigation. As far as "they probably watch it every day", it's safe to assume some employees there do, but it's safe to assume that they're probably and REASONABLY afraid of the SEC and AT LEAST try to appear to not be watching, and might even go as far as not actually watching just to protect themselves. You mentioned in this video what law suites could cost them.... now keep in mind that I've told you the SEC has more-than-just-warned-them about influencing the secondary market, and I'm sure you'll realize that unless I'm lying about this (which I'm not) they have a damn good reason to AT LEAST make strong efforts to appear to be ignoring the secondary market, and in fact, MIGHT be ignoring it for real to the best of their ability. BTW... "I knew people who knew people" sounds remote, but I'm saying I talked to at least one person who personally knew Wizards employees and actually visited the company, and so I got the information second-hand. (SEC is the US Securities Exchange Comminsion of course.)
Oh... it was also the reason they changed the label from "Collectable Card Game" to "Tradable Card Game"... because they didn't even want to call it "collectable" because they were afraid that even that could be considered to effect the aftermarket. If you don't believe me about the investigation, think about this: WHY ELSE WOULD THEY HAVE CHANGED THAT? "Collectable" makes it sound more valuable. "Tradable," to me, certainly sounds like they're afraid of legal actions.
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer i don't wish harm on anyone, i just find it hard to imagine a life path where someone owns a million dollars in collectables and doesn't have other means to support themselves. i guess there are a couple people out there like that tho. another point i was thinking of: but other than litigation concerns, the reserved list is not in WotC favor either right ? if they put duel lands in a booter pack and sell it for over 100$ (or some crazy price) a pack people would still buy it right ? pure profit i would think, like i said, ignoring litigation concerns. i also feel like some insider trading motives keep the reserved list as well. WotC employees could be the owners of several of these million dollar collections. thanks for the reply. been watching for a while.
@@spaz128 I think you are at least partially missing the point... Say they can support themselves. So what? So a promise should be broken causing them to lose massive amounts of money so people who took no risk and had nothing invested can get cheap stuff? MTG was sold to be a collectible as well as a game. It was bought as a collectible by people using it properly. It had the RL promise made to them specifically to protect their value. Like it or not, it was a promise and they have a right to it. Whether or not it would financially destroy them does NOT justify breaking that promise.
@@spaz128 The simple answer to your dual land question (the direction you were going...) is that WoTC would make a couple million and risk a 10 billion dollar lawsuit. The legal damages would completely, totally, utterly, eclipse any amount of profit they made from selling RL cards again. THIS is the primary reason it will NEVER break.
We can force it to change. When millions of people have a day or week or month of rage in the world of Twitter and Instagram and Tiktok, things can and WILL change. The power of the angry masses can't be ignored. #ReservedListDelendaEst
I'm ok with reprints as long as the look is different and the artwork is different. I want to buy/use the same cards with different looks. I might have to buy a newer version of a card or I might have to buy an older version. For people like me, reprints wont change the game for me.
isn't it strange how the person that put this video up it's at the start said don't attack me don't blame me but when people post comments supporting this video and attacking the professor it seems perfectly ok because he dared to say no more reserve list and before everyone jumps down my throat yes i own reserve list card because i happen to like the goddamn cards
I meant go ahead and discuss your points, don't just attack me. If you read these comments I discuss with opposing views. I only get angry when people bypass the topic and attack me. And I have already defended the Prof several times in the comments saying he was just likely ignorant of these facts.
Old magic will never happen in other countries, remember we in Brazil were one of the first countries to have translated cards back in fourth edition in 1995. Our GDP per capita were 10k dollars with 165 million people. Now we have 211+ million people with 15k dollars GDP per capita. The prices will drop for sure, but there is a huge, enourmous, gigantic, overwhelming demand that you guys do not even think of. If you want old magic, there is only two solutions, reprint, or proxies, btw we chave championships with proxies for years here in Brazil.
"The prices will drop for sure, but there is a huge, enourmous, gigantic, overwhelming demand that you guys do not even think of." The demand you speak of is demand for the newly printed cards that people didn't have access to before. That demand is NOT new demand for that 75k Alpha Lotus. That 75k Alpha Lotus will have a FALL in demand because who in their right mind would rush out and pay full market price to buy an uber expensive card that just got reprinted... at previous market prices?!? Nobody. And that's the point you are missing.
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer Indeed, the point I want to make is the more access more people will go to those ancient cards. the demand for old cards will increase. And hear me out on will (future) increase.
@@swampking666 That is an assumption. The future MIGHT or MIGHT NOT increase. In the short term.. the existing cards will ABSOLUTELY trigger a price collapse. So will WoTC trigger many extremely expensive lawsuits... that MIGHT not bankrupt them if buyers happen to like older cards after they are reprinted? For 23+ years now the answer has been a rock solid NO. And the Prof's video does NOTHING to change that. There is NO WAY they will take a risk like that, especially when business is already good. Which means the Prof's video is just getting a bunch of people worked up over something that will never happen. I think that was terrible of him to do.
Edwin just curious on your view of MTG Lions thoughts as an attorney that the case would be determined on previous litigation of similar cases Here are my thoughts on this Wizards of the coast created the reserve list in acknowledgment that owners lost value in assets that they owned after wizards reprinted them and the reserved list was a means of preventing value losses in the future. So technically couldn’t the previous incident in 1996 be cited as evidence that Wizards of Coast acknowledged that value of cards was damaged by reprinting and by doing so would knowingly be causing financial losses to owners of their cards and their asset values as collectibles. Since wizards of the coast previously published that they would never reprint cards on the reserve list are they contractually liable if they do for losses to the assets? It would seem if they knowingly reprinted cards and damaged value of current assets that they would be liable to the owners. I personally don't think they will ever break the reserved list as it would bring unnecessary class action litigation and potential pay out of damages. Companies such as Hasbro don't open themselves up to any sort of risk of this nature and would not risk losing millions of potential customers of future product.
I really wish MTG Lion was more consistent. He is a lawyer and should have a really good opinion on this... BUT MTG Lion has also in the past made moves and flipped positions on topics just to generate views on his channel. I have personally witnessed him in one video say MTG Finance people are evil and ruining the game. Then a year later he's buying RL cards in bulk as an investment. So I really don't give him much credibility sorry. As for what you state as an opinion. that's more then just your opinion. That's pretty similar to the actual legal advice many people have gotten from their own paid-for lawyers who looked into this years ago. Please follow me on this... It's been KNOWN FOR YEARS from LEGAL EXPERTS that WoTC opens themselves up to liability if they break the RL. Since 2016 the total value of the RL has pushed WELL into the billions of dollars of potential damages. To anybody who actually bothered to get a legal answer from an expert... this has been answered for years now. Years after that knowledge... there was even another RU-vidr/Lawyer who made a whole video on this and also CLEARLY backed up what many people already verified as true. But this time it was clear for the whole public to see. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-5HR7ABQIUbc.html And now you see how completely absurd and irresponsible it was for the Prof to make his video.
" eternal formats have withered because WOTC support went away" even you know that is a bold faced lie. Vintage and legacy have been on a steep decline for a while in paper, and the cost to buy in has grown exponentially. getting into vintage in 2005 didn't cost 30k for most decks, or whatever that is adjusted for inflation.
Perhaps you should do a bit more research or historical fact finding before you call someone a liar... When WoTC stopped supporting Type 1 (Vintage) Dual lands were $10, Bazaar of Baghdad was $30, Tabernacle was $25, mana drain was $30 etc. Only P9 was really expensive at around $100 per mox etc. That's not very far off Standard prices today! WoTC broke support for Type 1 (Vintage) a long long time ago to focus on rotating sets for a constantly changing type 2 (standard) edition... and to force people to keep buying new cards instead of just using new cards. So yes... what I told you is true.
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer I'm not sure if you are even the right person to respond to considering that 80% of the words that come out of your mouth in this video are another mans thoughts, but based off your logic wizards hasn't supported type 2 ( standard) in about that long either. If wizards supported the formats prices would go up? oh boy I better buy into vintage when its only 30k, soon it will be 40k! Nobody has paid any mind to legacy in years even SCG, and one of the biggest gaming tournaments in the country (gencon) had eight people show up to play paper vintage. All of this was long after wizards threw you out on the streets. THAT is a total lack of support for eternal formats, and that didn't happen anywhere near moxen being 100$. The player base has rapidly expanded from the time a duel land was 10$, and none of those players could have bought into those formats for anything less than a substantial collection of cards from vastly more popular formats. You mention the concept of things being priced in, and anyone who bought into vintage or legacy in the last decade did it well after the knowledge of wizards end of supporting the formats. Of course you know all of that, and the point of this video wasn't to tell the truth, it was to get clicks by any dishonest means necessary.
@@maplz9314 Nothing in my video was dishonest, you just have distorted facts, incorrect history, bad logic, and are likely just butthurt over the RL which is why you attack me. That much is clear. WoTC never stopped supporting Standard. All their attention went there at the launch of the pro tour and never stopped. Yes people avoid Vintage now due to price, but that was not the reason back then. Your point about 8 Vintage players at that event is weak too. Everybody knows those official events don't focus on old formats and have not for over a decade. Vintage, Legacy and Old School players self organize their own events. As for the points in the video, I already said the same things in other videos over 2 years ago. So no, I was reading similar opinions to what I already said in that letter. The point of the video was making it clear the RL is never going away. And it's not.
Videos like this need to gain more traction. I am very unsettled recently with the profs attitude towards WOTC. It's become antagonistic to the point where hes telling WOTC to "Thank Me, for this free promotion." Not a fan of the rhetoric. "Reprint fetchlands you cowards," is one of the worst phrases to grace our community and only leads to Gavin, Maro, and more, being harrassed online. I'm afraid his RL ideas will do the same.
I seriously think that WoTC is probably cringing looking at his RL video. They are stuck, they cannot break the RL and now he's getting armies of their customers all pissed off and ready to start making demands. I agree, it's really not a good tactic.
the professor has good intentions but hes almost always wrong in my opinion when it comes to card value, the cost of magic and its accessibility, reprints, the reserved list, expected value, his opinions on all formats. most of his arguments don't make sense to me he argues for the large loud uniformed majority. maybe i'm the one who's completely wrong but i think i see a bigger picture he sees the smaller one.
Look at how chronicles destroyed the price of the cards that got reprinted vs those that didn’t get reprinted. I don’t think the economics are any different today. Of course, I wish they’d just straight up reprint all the pre fallen empires sets just so we can all enjoy magic like how Garfield originally envisioned.
Chronicles did indeed crush prices, I remember that. Of course it's a bit of speculation as to how much prices would get crushed initially and then remain low long term...
The professors delivery and articulation of a subject is always great, but the validity of his arguments are often biased and inaccurate. The reserve list argument is another example.
Indeed. He makes fun well edited content. I just wish he did more research on this one because getting people all worked up over something that will not change does not help anybody.
WOTC should not care one bit about the secondary market. The inevitable is coming anyway, which will be no new physical cards and they have everything new online. That may be a bit down the line, but it will happen. Then, all your old cards will be worth even more, reserved list or not.
People have been saying that for years... and yet people still really like buying paper cards. WoTC should not care about the secondary market, but CLEARLY they do. It's a total lie for lawsuit reasons that they PRETEND not to look at the secondary market.
