@@Boxxcutter true and i guess it war unrealistic considering she knew Elizabeth rather well then she knows Aloy is a lot like Elizabeth but i guess she was blinded by feelingd
@@LegendaryDarkKnight602 it’s probably because they’re from another planet, meaning things must’ve changed over the time including fashion. Also based upon the fact that their rich is another factor.
considering they could slip into their own worlds at anytime and no need to worry about life n death, i can see it faro's bunker shows what would happen if they couldn't
@@ddp5406 It's easy to tolerate others when you can be stuck in your own bubble and they can be stuck in their own as well doing whatever they want. I think Eric would have done a few VR games where he runs around killing all the other Zeniths, especially those that pissed him off most.
These writers have created a world with unlimited plot potential and I love it! They also leave so many breadcrumbs for future stories. Like how they left the Zenith base on earth, the Odyssey in orbit, Nemesis potentially having any and everything from the New Zenith colony including their technology, Hephaestus being ever stronger, Peter guy potentially being alive?, Elysium and its population, we still don't know Sylens that well.... They just have SO much to work with.
Considering sylens haven't taken off in the ending, I hope guerilla games explains his origins like where was his tribe, why did he betray the banuuk etc
I can understand why Nemesis was capable of taking out the Zenith Colony. It had ALL of their memories, system specs, security protocols, took over their machine printing facility with their passcodes, and hacked everything. Nemesis does not have the memories of everyone else on earth, who defeated the Zeniths before. Which is why when Tilda was all “it is us, the minds of far zenith.” Oh, well… we beat them once. We also have Hephaestus. Also… Hephaestus vs Nemesis? We know that Hephaestus does not go down without a fight… so yes please. I’m a bit confused on how the hell Nemesis was able to wake Hades. As far as I’m aware, Nemesis had no control over Gaias sub functions. Also a tad confused on why Hades told Aloy that he had extinct earth 3 times, rather than the 2. 3?! Why 3? That’s an open ended question. Is there another clone of Aloy? That Aloy thought was Elizabets body? I agree that they have a lot to work with. I thought this universe was so large, so I’m glad it’s getting it’s own tv show, as long as they don’t fuck it up.
rational brain: tilda van der meer is toxic and possessive and as bad as the other zeniths art history degree in my closet: yeah but she also gave guerilla a reason to force a dutch baroque art lesson into their video game so maybe she's good actually, in this essay I will--
@@zyonhenderson67 Tilda is a lost potential. If Aloy just lied to her to agree to come with Tilda then convince her to defend earth, then her death would have been unnecessary. Tilda's not bad, just lonely.
@@narulovechannel2249 there's no convincing her. Like the dialogue said, give her 2 hundred years or so to forgive which means she's not going to change her mind
@@LegendaryDarkKnight602 I can imagine TIlda's dying words, asking her why didn't Aloy come with her as it would be a better fate for them, But Aloy would tell her that It's her own fate, her own choice that she would stay on Earth, not hers.
@@usamazahid3882 And to think, had she not pulled that little stunt she probably could've given us more insight on their achievements on Sirius and probably give more insight on Nemesis in the next game.
@@dr.science_0177 Ha, so the leader was made to resemble Jeff Bezos. It makes total sense, since the odd fella is currently the richest man alive today.
I'm calling it now. That Peter guy that's behind the immortality of the human mind. I wouldn't be surprised if it's Sylens or some connection to him. Sylens is way to knowledgeable. Even if that's the claim he makes about his pursuit to know more with the help of the focus. He just seems to know more than what's being made known to us or Alloy.
@@Msasha2727 Right? If that were a option the storyline would have a crap ton of possibilities. He could still toe the line of friend/enemy. Role as a savior with that knowledge or ignore the demise of humanity and become a enemy/ obstacle along.
@@chibi171 Horizon just had the best plot. I never played the first one but then I did when I had covid and was stuck still for 14 days and I plowed through that game and just fell in love. This game…. I didn’t think I’d love it too but I did! It’s going to be a long ten years for the next one lol I’ll be a 45 year old women playing that game hahaha like go to bed kids mom needs the PlayStation
@@Msasha2727 I feel you lol! Heck I'll play games the same way Steve O still finds ways to do random pranks and stunts despite being a gray head lol. Games are a awesome way to kill time and escape reality for awhile. There is no shame in that. Keep gaming and being a good mom when the time comes lol.
I never thought about this but it's actually perfect. I can't think of any other reason why he knew exactly how to capture Hades and manipulate it like he did. He shouldn't have been able to do that in the first game. He also acts like someone who is immortal. I wonder if he actually lived in Elysium and made everyone there immortal along with him. I keep expecting Elysium to play a huge role in the story, but as of yet it's the most teased plotline of them all.
Honestly, it hurt having to fight Tilda and put her down. I actually liked her a lot. I wish she would have joined the crew for the upcoming final battle in the third game. It would have been so cool having her around. But I suppose she Nemesis literally wipeout her entire planet it would only be natural for her to assume that there would be no way for it to be stopped.
I dont think Tilda cut off Beta from the Data channel to protect her ... I think she was grooming Beta to be like Liz and when she discovered that Beta was nothing like Liz she cut her off...and then she found Aloy who was soo like Liz and became obsessed with taking her (against her will) on the shuttle.. bit rapey imo. Also I never pieced together that they called her Beta coz ol Aunty Liz was Alpha, Id assumed that theyd made an alpha version of her and it went wrong so they made Beta lol very clever.... And Gerard ..for all their technology and he still chooses to be bald? Thought that was an interesting design choice hah.. Also I felt a little cheated with the whole Ted Faro thing ... Can you imagine the conversation if hed survived and talked face to face with Aloy?!!! Man id wanna see that.
Absolutely. Even in the end, she refers to Beta as a pale imitation of the real thing. She's very good at lying. She's the one speaking on the project anzu datapoint and then tells Lis she had nothing to do with the plan to steal Gaia when she's the world's top information broker. As for Faro, I felt more cheated we didn't get to see his morphed messed up body! I figured we probably couldn't talk to him cuz he would be completely gone mentally but we should've been able to fight his blob body
I love that Faro tried to become immortal just like the Zeniths (unless he failed). Also I did some "research" and people seem to think that Faro probably looked like a Resident evil boss. But considering the fact that his cells kept mutating, keeping him alive, for a thousand years. Faro just became an enormous flesh mass rigged with tumours. He must have weighted way more than a ton.
when the Zeniths returned to Earth, were they aware that Apollo was purged and the people lived primitive lives? I wonder how the Zeniths would treat the people of earth if Apollo was never destroyed? Instead of primitives what if they were intellects and knowledgeable, would the Zeniths still treat them like vermin and try to kill them anyway?
Well it was basically 1000 years later so, if apollo wasn't purged, the humans wouldn't have reverted to the tribes and most likely started to elevate humanity. I'm thinking, at the current time of hfw, humanity and the zeniths would've been even. 🤷🏿♂️ maybe
It is possible they were hoping that the Zero Dawn humanity on Earth was as advanced and could help them defeat Nemesis. If so I imagine they freaked out a bit when they found out that the planet was populated by mostly illiterate tribespeople. Though if so why have Beta? I have to assume that at some point over the last thousand years they sent a probe or something to Earth and were aware that things had somehow gone wrong.
These people were titans of industry before they even left earth, so chances are good they already treated the many intellectuals that worked for them like shit. I doubt a thousand years of immortality and god hood would have mellowed them out, so even if earth were full of advanced people, the Zenith's would have been every bit as douchey.
Speaking as someone who has had dissociative identity disorder, the mere nightmarish concept of having separate, disparate personalities festering around and struggling for control and driven by rage is exactly as nightmarish as it sounds. Except Nemesis is far worse in every possible, pants-shittingly horrific way for several reasons: 1. It's component personalities were primarily made up of copies of profoundly self-centered and greedy human beings who made up the absolute worst of our species. 2. It spent centuries in insolation. Human minds are made to socialize with varying degrees of frequency, intensity, and duration. This entity spent hundreds of years without any human contact. And considering how narcissistic the component personalities were, this was hell for such a being, with no one to praise it or interact with it. 3. Its mind was a jumbled together mess. I have had experience being a three-part person, and it is difficult to function like that in the best of circumstances. But unlike someone with dissociative identity disorder, the components of Nemesis were of whole and complete minds. They were not simply fragments of a single original consciousness. These were complete copies of people mixed together with their own thoughts, memories, personalities, ambitions, desires, preferences, prejudices, proclivities, and beliefs. And most of them were antisocial monsters to start with. No mind is meant to handle all of that at once. So yeah. While I have some insight into what Nemesis's mind would be like, it's so much worse in every imaginable facet and dimension and gets worse the more you think about it.
Yep and Aloy's team had a little "Avengers" moment in the final mission. You know the moment where the camera man makes sure to get screenshots of everyone in action.
Here's what I'll say about Forbidden West. It's really easy to miss the mentions of Project Odyssey in the first game. But as soon as I found that bit of lore, I KNEW they were going to be responsible for the signal that woke HADES. I never could have predicted just how far it went though.
well, not too surprising much as there were theories already spoken about it from back then. the mentions about, like the signal being responsible for making the ZD system becoming dividedly separated, incomplete, came from supposedly the currently aged colonists of the former first odyssey mission. just for them to check up on what has been happening to their supposedly thought fellow advanced Earthly reclaimers but now Disastrously turned primitives. at least....those were said-theories but never something like a FARO Plague 2.0 threat being in them.
easy to miss as Project Elysium in the first and second part... my guess is... Elysium and Nemesis play big roles in part 3. Gaya said Elysium was cut from her network. And everybody thinks it could only last a 100years. But we learned with odyssey that they were wrong about some parts of history.
I feel the ending was so abrupt that it was disappointing. They found out about Nemesis and suddenly Tilda is a definite villain and demands they get on a rocket NOW and leave Earth. Like what? She seemed sensible enough to at least try to come up with solutions with Aloy on ways to save Earth and defeat Nemesis. Fighting Aloy- someone who at this point defeated war machines and eternal godlike humans- was a suicide mission. It didn’t make sense to fight her. I don’t know really dumb ending and the final boss fight was extremely easy. I was shocked because the game was so good and it built up to that. Anyways… still going to play part 3. Possibly fighting machine dinosaurs in space.
Yea I think in Tildas mind Nemesis was never going to lose and Alloy was an exact copy of “ the one that got away “ the idea of facing her own immortality alone was the driving force behind all of her “ help” … she didn’t want to be alone forever and She had a 1000 years to pine after Elisabet
I also feel its rushed.. it feels like there is something missing between the 2nd and the 3th act.. Cut Content maybe. Even sylens and Regalla are cut short in my eyes.
@@000jimbojones000 Well that is not surprising as most games nowadays have to cut a lot of content due to a whole bunch of bullshit ranging from budget cuts to "We can't put this in because the CEO wants more unicorns and rainbows in this" so yea not surprising, What I guess happened was that they were short on time and had to rush it.
Hank Shaw didn't transmit the fake Gaia to Far Zenith. After interrogating Hank, Travis Tate got the transmission code and transmitted the fake Gaia himself.
Every time I see someone criticizing the concept of the zenith(like their immortality, advanced technology, etc), I roll my eyes incensed, like did they forget the world has repair by a terraforming system who has been constructed in TWO YEARS and the ultra-sophisticated design of the Horus?!
I liked that you mentioned 'Beta' being a name that was meant to diminish the second Elisabeth clone. In fact, I hated the fact that Alloy and everyone else kept caling her that terrible name instead of spending a few minutes to allow her to chose a better name for herself.
It's kind of irrelevant. That's her name. No one's gonna question the legitimacy of your name. Besides the name itself doesn't have to be condescending
I see a potential game for the story of the far zeniths and how the protagonist could try to stop these maniacs from tearing everything apart but failed in the end. Leading to the destruction of Serius and the Far Zeniths. The protagonist could have escaped if wanted just to build up the universe from there.
Their greed to continuously keep on living has the potential to kill all life on earth because now they've realized they've screwed up and don't actually want immortality. Seeking what is supposed to be the highest form of immortality and being completely lonely because they're just surrounded by each others egos.
Good lore video, Zoe! I like how Forbidden West's story answers questions posed in Zero Dawn, but I can't help shake the feeling the larger story suffers from the sophomore curse of Guerilla Games, trying to live up to the first game. The twists and turns with the Odyssey and Far Zenith, are just so over the top, it feels like Horizon is turning into the Matrix trilogy, unfortunately. I feel as the story progresses, it's straying away from what made the first game so unique and relatable. I hope they can dial it back and regain that uniqueness in the third entry, hopefully?
I personally think they messed up with the story of FW. They turned a quiet, sophisticated sci-fi story into a marvel movie. It’s so over the top, the Zenith are pretty one-dimensional, and Nemesis is very uninteresting. They probably won’t make a third game until 2026, but I’m not even really excited for it
@@eanderson9599 My biggest problem with FW is while raising the stakes are natural for a sequel, they're straying farther and farther into sci-fi fantasy more than science fiction. One reason HZD is so relatable is the future it predicts could really happen given the current state of our world and how we're recklessly putting too much trust in AI. That's what grounds the original story and links it to present day... Whereas FW is going off into, as you stated, MCU territory and losing that connection even if Aloy is still the center of it all.
@@eanderson9599 So yeah rich people venturing into space and terraforming planets is so scifi fantasy, not like Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk are wealthy elite and are doing just that. Hmmm, isnt Musk dabbling in AI and mentioning how dangerous it can be if it became weaponized? And still you say its not grounded in reality? It actually seems Far Zenith and Nemesis aint so absurd when the 2 richest men in the planet are doing just that. Seems pretty grounded in our reality still. Or do you just ignore that Ted Faro and the Zenith are just based on the archetype of Elon Musk and Jeff Besos?
@@PLAYER_42069 So yeah rich people venturing into space and terraforming planets is so scifi fantasy, not like Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk are wealthy elite and are doing just that. Hmmm, isnt Musk dabbling in AI and mentioning how dangerous it can be if it became weaponized? And still you say its not grounded in reality? It actually seems Far Zenith and Nemesis aint so absurd when the 2 richest men in the planet are doing just that. So wehre does it seem that its not grounded in reality, to me it seems as its even more pausible for the things that happen in the sequel to happen before the events in the first game. Or do you just ignore that Far Zenith and Ted Farro are stand ins for Bezos and Musk. Bezos is practically taking rich people into space and Musk wants to terrafrom Mars cause he believes we are slowly destroying Earth. And whom do you think he would take to Mars? The wealthy and the smart useful people. Yeah Forbidden West doesnt seem all impausible my friend. Heck, we might Forbidden West happening faster than we might get the Faro Plague
@@mannyrobles3065 If you think Bezos and Musk are doing the same thing as Far Zenith then you misunderstand the scale entirely. Neither of them are ever going to get people to another planet in our solar system let alone another system. And terraforming is also completely out of the question for these two. Musk in particular is a kind of con man that has somehow acquired the status of Tony Stark in the media. You need to be scientifically illiterate to believe that Far Zenith is anything other than science fantasy.
I have so much to say about this disappointing story.... but I'll just say this: I think the writers missed an opportunity (one of many) to make the Zeiniths more interesting. They should have had more of the "good ones" survive. Like Stanley Chen for example. That would have created conflict within their ranks. Maybe Stanley would have wanted to protect earth from the Zeiniths or maybe even stay so he could die in the city that he built and loved. I know earth was supposed to be a pit stop for them but that would have been better than the Zeiniths just being pure evil.
Hey hey .. I'm just thinking what if guerrilla make a game that we play on tilda perspective and game start on the tilda when about going to Sirius and ending on tilda go to earth .. 😁😁😁 wow this is gonna be good storyline
Knowing this it doesn't conflict with the idea that everyone involved with zero dawn thought out living the apocalypse was impossible. With the solution and complications Faro found with his immortality I don't really consider that living. Just suffering.
You said it took 300 years for the zeniths to reach Sirius but Gaia repeatedly affirms 17.22 years. Which is about how long the zeniths took to come back after nemesis sent the signal. Where did 300 come from? Granted in nearly a millennium FTL tech would have advanced. But still I’m curious because I don’t recall seeing that in the story, it’s possible I missed a data point somewhere and if that’s the case I’d love to know where to find it!
@@TheTonytone77 could you point me to the data point or place in the game she said that or is it multiple places? I got platinum in both games so I can just go back and look at them for myself. I’m okay being wrong, I just want to know for sure, for the sake of the lore. I love these games.
@@TheTonytone77 I’d go back and do it myself but there’s SOO many datapoints and it would take me a whole day and I work a LOT. You seem to have that knowledge readily at hand.
What if they didn't fail when it came to uploading themselves to anything that they wanted to digitally. After all though she goes inside of it like a suit of armor the way that it bonds around her as it comes to her would seem as if she or it is digitally forming with the other. What if she didn't make it so that they could upload into anything but what if she succeeded in making it so that anything essentially could form around them nobody else seems to do this but her perhaps in her spare time she did succeed in areas where Nemesis had failed
Still *Disgusting* for any possible progressing futures for any fictious Mankind versions. *(**01:17**).* for an example, the [Traveler] and GA era Humanity would have large words to Reminding these children of far zenith who would think that they could get away with that kknd of view and motivation.
What i dont get.. Far Zenith was an ark for the Rich and the "Elite". Yet Ted Faro. The richest man on earth with the biggest company on earth didnt join them and failed to be immortal. (kind of). ;-)
I'm not convinced that she lived Elisabet. She was not a convincing character in this regard however her acting was top notch as you'd expect from an A list actress.
The final boss wasa rather weak. Then again I cant think of any major boss I lost against. Usually, although rarely, it would be the hord of enemies plus machines that might kill me a few times.
Tilda was not treated very well. There was not reason for her to get a weak boss fight as her send off, with no ability to attempt to save her. Such a waste
There wasn't any saving. Her whole purpose for coming was to stall time and leave the planet to die and take Aloy with her. You don't change someone's mind like that. Especially when they lie to you the whole time and keep the whole "nemesis is here to kill the planet" bit of information to herself. She was never there to save the earth. She was only there to take the piece of Elizabet Sobeck that was left. The was the plan from the beginning. Because she was willing to let the planet die, she was a threat. Not every character needs a redemption arc. It would've been a bad idea to write her as changing her mind within a few minutes when she's had years and years of a set plan.
@@AssassinKillua15 That writes her character as a very two dimensional mustache twirling villain. People are complex and games should reflect that. Tilda comes off as not a terrible person. A selfish one sure, but also one that has been beating herself up for either not staying behind with Elizabet, or trying to convince her to come with her. So I totally believe that she sees Aloy as a piece of Elizabet and a last chance for her to "save" her this time. Having Aloy even have the option to try and talk to her and convince her that no she is not Elizabet, but Elizabet wouldn't run away so why is she would not have been a stretch. Then you preserve a complex character for future exploration later, rather than a mechsuit fight for all of 5 minutes.
Amazing video! Just one thing, try not to play so fast and loose with objective affirmations. A lot of the conclusions you make aren't very explicit in the in-game lore (particularly in regard to Tilda's character) and are thus subject to interpretation. Therefore, making broad assumptions about certain larger, broader topics is slightly disingenuous. Great work telling the lore otherwise!
Is it me that just thinks that the zeniths were a missed opportunity as a compelling antagonist. I mean is poor writing that after 1000 years and seeing the fruits of their failures, still the same people that left... Really... They all get killed by a dreadwing... The story could have been a lot better.
bad guys who are bad cos they are bad and rich are boring and one toned but in the present political climate people like such uncompelling. the zeniths were boring
Because most big corporate baddies are boring. No reason to try to create some crazy off the wall reasoning when we have people like Jeff Bezos trying to work on getting rid of aging. He's basically what a Zenith is. Its always as simple as greed and ego that drives these things. The Zeniths are realistic and most corporate billionaires are boring people. Jeff, Elon, and Mark would be Zeniths and they're very boring people.
So now that Far Zenith has totally fallen, we still have some immortal humans lurking around? Like that Peter guy and possibly Ted Faro(assuming the monster the CEO burned was just a red herring). I'm not sure what other secret the devs have left for HZD3. It would be redundant to reveal another secret human society(e.g Atlantis tech city underwater). Because conceptually that's been done, regardless of how cool the aesthetics might be. I'm presuming Nemesis is the Endgame. However, a hidden enemy could be revealed. Whomever cause the Swarm glitch in the first place(assuming it wasn't just a glitch).
I used to think Zero Dawn project was the most technologically advanced project. As all of humanity worked on it to ensure survival. Now we learn it was actually technologically Inferior to the technology available to the elites?? The whole Zeniths as a concept and their immortality does feel plot contrived. As if they were made up last second for this game. I wasn't a fan of their golden design either as it felt out of place in this world (which is what the designers were going for, but still didn't like it). Though it's funny how this once great Civilization who looked down upon Zero Dawn, now came running back for an "inferior" tech in Gia to save their own skins from a calamity they pointlessly created because of their escalating greed for immortality+.
They should have just had them be uploads of the originals into Android bodies instead of immortality tech, although nothing about the fate of humanity would have been different in Zero Dawn even if every single person on Earth was immortal because the machines could still kill and consume them. I think most of the god-like tech was developed during the trip or during the time on the colony. If they had a working copy of Apollo and a rudimentary Gaia there would be staggering leaps in technology if that intelligence was turned towards develop nanotechnology and virtual reality instead of being utilized to micro-manage the reconstruction of the entire biosphere. If Ted hadn't destroyed Apollo then likely the new inhabitants of Earth could have been brought to a similar level quickly with Gaia's help. Wonder if Peter was the original version of Sylen's.
One of my few complaints about the game was the lack of integration of the Zenith’s through out the game. It would have been cool to see/fight more of their machines, for Zs to have infected machines on earth trying to find/capture Aloy, and provide wholly different environment to play in. I also wanted more Sylens
This the type of game where you need to listen/read the audio and pay attention to some side quest to get a detailed story on characters. Some of the things you learn of him were not all revealed on main quest missions, like other characters, not crucial for you to know to understand the game, that's why they had it to where you can listen or read at your leisure to documentaries and audios without making it mandatory.
I kept wishing Beta would change her name. The 1st time I heard it I immediately said “well, that’s condescending”. Hopefully she does so in the next one.
Amazing videos! There's so much lore spread across the game that it's very easy to miss stuff and get lost. As for the Zeniths, I was kinda bummed they are all (presumedly) dead now, but then I realized that since Nemesis is an amalgam of their collective shittiness we may still be able to sort of see and learn more about them in the future. Just a thought. And you certainly won't hear me complaining if Guerrilla manages to sneak more Carrie-Anne Moss in a third entry of the series.
Amazing video Zoe, I always love the lore videos you put out, although I do have a question for you or anyone else who might know. Do you (or anyone else) know if forbidden west will be getting a new game plus?
I groaned when the metahumans walked through that hatch in the Hades test centre... for me personally,worst way they could've taken it,took the tone totally away from the wonder of Zero Dawn.😔
Do you think some of the Zeniths could have survived the attack? Maybe that could be a possible DLC, some of them survived and are causing trouble somewhere in or near the forbidden west. Maybe the place called the burning shores? A place mentioned by Gildun in a letter found in the game. He was a character from the Zero Dawn DLC.
Honestly…I’m wondering, considering they did upload their consciousnesses …maybe we will meet other Zeniths, including their founder and..maybe even Stanley….. Oh and I also think that Tilda might have broken contact with Beta mostly for herself, because she just wasn’t enough like Elisabet for her
I was just checking if someone else caught that and I agree with your thought. Beta describes her experiences with Tilda as being introduced to a curated environment and Tilda getting annoyed if she asked too many questions. In my opinion she was discarded as 'not being Lis enough'.
So the Zenith's achieved the immortal life without mutation that Faro failed to. Curious that he didn't try and join Zenith unless it was because of his deep seated guilt over the Faro plague and his determination that his crime (and humanity's mistakes) would be erased. Also he was unlikely to be the leader with many of these wealthy people rightly blaming him for their having to do this in the first place. He may have at least learned of what Zenith were up to and was trying to replicate it on Earth rather than flee to the stars. Nice if convoluted explanation of why/how Hades woke up. Thank you my lady for such a clear and succinct summation of this most convoluted of HZD tribes.
Faro could have definitely afforded any ticket price. But I suspect the reasons you stated may have made him decided not to got with them. I wouldnt be shocked if he pursued other avenues of immortality like the Zeniths as well. He may have had equal or better tech for digital mind uploads
@@LexYeen Yes I think you are right. Makes him even more of a shitty character if he actually planned to terminate Apollo, and the Alphas so he could become a God to the primitives that followed. Frankly I think not as that takes far more planning and duplicity that Faro is capable off. I think more likely he just stumbled from covering his butt, to killing the Alphas to really cover his Butt (along with deleting Apollo) and then thinking hey making the new mankind in an acceptable image for him doesn't sound that bad!
