Play War Thunder now for free with my link, and get a massive bonus pack including vehicles, boosters and more: playwt.link/idyl A birthday present from me to you: a 47 minute ramble of a video about why updated versions of old MMOs are good. I hope you enjoy it and agree with every single thing I said! I love you.... Say it back.
Playing a warrior in season of discovery is really boring. Sure maybe they dont need much more damage but at least give them something fun (current runes does not change gameplay at all)
Played this video in the background while I was doing an open heart surgery on a patient. Unfortunately he passed away, but I really enjoyed the video!
Old MMOs simulate that feeling of success and progression through hardship and struggle, the driving force that makes humanity what it is today. New MMOs are sterile safe bus rides where everyone gets the same adventure perfectly curated by the developers. There is nothing wrong with enjoying the latter, but man, I would trade all of this new garbage in a heartbeat to experience RuneScape back in 2004 for the first time again.
@@IcycritsThat's because you chase after nostalgia. As you admitted right here even 'non curated perfectly safe non garbage' old school is incapable of doing it for you. The problem isn't the game, be it new or old, the problem is your dream that is unachievable. You want to relive feelings that were tied to both who you are and what you experianced in past. So by all logic even 'old school' MMO's are garbage because it also failed to provide you with what you seek.
Absolute Facts!! I just want to experience an MMO like Archeage again. The way that farming in open pvp zones was required to attain good gear was the definition of hardship and struggle.
I met a guy in Cambridge who works at Jagex. They caught me off guard as I spoke about old school and they said "old school can go die in a fire" - I didnt want to push this as it was surprising to hear, but it was super interesting. They work on R3. Showed me that maybe internally there is a lot of division between the two teams. Must be hard when a lot of people prefer the other version. I wonder if Blizzard has the same internal conflict.
Idyl, you're damn fun to watch. Thanks for making the videos you do. I appreciate not only your game commentary, but your social commentary as well; I too hope we see a return to form someday. Ideally before my beard gets anymore grey in it.
4:01 Bro, thats not a Lambo, its a Mopar vehicle, hence the name of the server. That particular one is an early 70's Dodge Charger Daytona, like the one Richard petty drove in NASCAR. How dare you call it a Lambo? lol
the problem that i see games like wow and rs3 face is that they will introduce really short therm solutions to bring back old players, such as fomo stuff and mayjor buffs and reworks, and new mechanics. but that really sucks long therm, rs3 is in a state right now where there are so many stat boosters that most players don't even try to have all of them equipped, you only need some of them to be able to max really fast (or so i've heard) compare that to osrs where there really aren't a lot of xp boosters at all, it's mostly only the skilling outfits. adding more and more mechanics also makes it really hard for new and returning players to join the game. the more stuff they have to learn the more likely they are to be overwealmed, it can also lead to a lot of dead content which isn't fun. in osrs even bad minigames are usually populated. having fomo stuff also just really sucks if you can't play the game constantly. seing something you wanted from a temporary event just slip by you is a really frustrating, quit moment the best thing about good mmos is being able to take a break and come back later, knowing that the game won't have gone anywhere. in osrs you can go from playing 6 hours a day, to 0 for 2 years and then pick up where you left off and your gear will still be relevant.
Great video, I understand that the Cataclysm classic bashing is a bit of memeing but I also get that people don't consider it ''classic'' but saying it's bad and nobody wants it is still a bit harsh because plenty of people ( obviously less than vanilla through wrath) are still excited for it, myself included. Alot of people didn't like what WoW turned in to after Wrath and that's fine, but for other people the point where they started disliking the direction for WoW was at a later point. I Am personally extremely happy that we have come to a point with WoW where we are getting both re-releases of the old expansions ( my personal cut off point is after MoP) aswell as Season of Discovery that can hopefully turn in to a proper classic+ at some point. Hopefully some banger MMOs comes out in the future, and hopefully the ones we already play regardless of what version of it, keeps improving.
Here's a list of the things that WoW ruined from vanilla-to-retail: - The most important thing they changed was the feeling of being in a world. Adding random dungeon finder, several difficulties to dungeons and sharding completely destroyed that - In the same vein as the above, Cataclysm put the world into a state of chaos. The longer the world stays in that state, the less it feels like a world to you because over time, the world should naturally return to some sort of stability or status quo. - adding too much complexity to standard gameplay. Having to think too much about rotations and procs and timers in regular non top-end play. It takes you out of the immersive world and makes you focus more on the gamey part of the game - Achievements, and general UI elements that are intertwined with your interaction with the world. Again, it takes you out of the immersive world and breaks the 4th wall. What's worse is that it links with the world itself, conditioning you to ignore the world and focus on the UI elements - Addons. In particular Weakauras. It links in with the point above. In the beginning, the addons that were used were less obstructive of immersion, but addons always aim to make the gameplay easier, more simple and less immersive. This isn't a comprehensive list. But I believe these are the most impactful reasons why WoW classic/vanilla is a better MMORPG than retail.
I always really enjoyed playing the game, so much so that I had a Runescape account that existed for years and had several low levels, but man I loved walking around the map, killing a cow, dropping a bronze knife from a goblin, doing the quests. In fact, it felt like I was on a real adventure, my cousins and my uncle, who had been playing to reach the maximum level for some time, thought it was funny how I played. If an MMORGP brought this back, with updated graphics, current mechanics and good stories, it wouldn't There's a lot that can go wrong, it doesn't need to start huge and epic, just do the basics well.
I see alot of content creators saying they dont want cata, but my brother and all his friends (who all played tbc or vanilla to start) are super excited for cata, and especially its pvp scene
I gave everquest a try not too long ago and the company does their "time locked progression" servers that cycle through each expansion similarly to how Classic does now. Also Holly Longdale was working on EQ for a long time so when Blizzard hired her for Classic team people started predicting that this release cadence might be the case. Some population play on these TLP servers but a big chunk plays on Project99, which is an equivalent of what Nostalrius would be for WoW. I don't know where I'm going with this please do Classic+ Blizzard. Also convince CipSoft to somehow release old Tibia.
Larian is a unicorn that caught a lightning in a bottle. And not on first attempt, or second, or third. They built some credit to their name way before publisher dominance in early 2000s. They managed to stay afloat without being bought out while not making any hit games until Original Sin. I can't think of any other company like that, it's like BioWare if it wasn't cannibalized by EA or Id Software if it wasn't cannibalized by Bethesda, or Rare if it wasn't... You get the idea. And you can't make a decent production values MMO with a small studio on a budget. I don't think even Larian or CDPR can pull it off now. So I don't think we're seeing an MMO renaissance anytime soon unless there will be a similar revolution in high-intensity net-code that happened in game engines in recent years with Unity and UE. If server side for an MMO doesn't require a dedicated team on a payroll and/or millions poured into AWS monthly, then maybe.
For a lot of shit that Cataclysm did wrong, it was actually extremely good in the beginning of the expansion. They did a good job of making each of the 5 new levels feel really impactful, as well as dungeons being actually challenging again, something Wrath of the Lich King was desperately trying to dissolve away. I can't tell you how many times I got a group to run a dungeon and people were baffled at the idea of needing to CC a mob so that I (the tank) didn't die in
36:41 I disagree. Many people agree that class balance (or class fun) during MoP was the greatest. You had to pick 6 out of 18 talents yes, but most, if not all were relevant. What do you do when you have the "freedom" of classic or DF talent trees? You still pick the most viable build for whatever game content you are doing. There's no variance. You always want that Shadow Dance, Bladestorm or 5/5 damage increase talent. Period.
Only getting to choose 1 talent every 15 levels in MoP was brutal. Plus there were very few reasons to ever change them. Still one of my favorite expansions, though 😂
10:50 not quite, let's not forget that classic era servers were absolutely barren once classic TBC released, and they stayed barren till mid classic Wrath.
The reason why the "Same company that destroyed the game will destroy it again" Is flawed, is because adding to the game is not the same as changing it. Even The Burning Crusade already had changing the essence of WoW. All updates were related to raids, which created the meme "The game only begins at endgame". The fact that there were only 10 levels before max level incentivized rushing to max level to do the raids(maybe they could have made it harder to acquire new levels after 60 to counter balance this, but they did not.). The quests were worse and dungeons were fewer, which incentivized people to grind the dungeons to get faster to the raids. In short, the fact that it was not as hard to level up as it was in vanilla made it less of an achievement, so if you were not focusing in raiding you were out of luck to play with other people.
Meridian59 (the first ever online MMORPG) is still the very best PvP experience I’ve ever had. It may look like shit but who cares, it’s amazing, the fact 200 people still play and it came out in the early 90’s says a lot.
Got to 11:26 Idyl and just wanted to say I personally don’t play any wow or whatever it’s called and the OSRS player base from my personal experience is like 60% SCAMMERS who do not play the game and only go there to steal from people because they are not likely to ever be caught/ take advantage of real people without and repercussions….
Damn Idyl. I didn't think I'd enjoy listening to you talk about MMORPGs while I work. I'd rather be playing me some MMORPGs but then how would I afford the MMORPGs and microtransactions!? Decisions, decisions.
Hi I'm nobody, I unironically liked Cata. As I was watching your video I realized I like Cata more for the overall aesthetic & design of the raids as opposed to the game design. I liked the destruction & shake-up of messing with the classic map. I really enjoyed the Mythic raid of Deathwing (and I liked dual wielding the 2H sword that summoned tentacles as a fury warrior...don't judge me). The spec system of Cata really did take a step back, it didn't bother me at the time, but when I started to doing more mythic raids I started noticing that specs were much more homogenous; you had less room for "fun" talents. Really noticed the cookie-cutter specs in MoP, & with everyone getting legendary cloaks it stopped feeling good, a real "when everyone's super, no one is" moment. Stopped playing in WoD when content was coming out super slowly & my progression raid guild just sort of stopped showing up.
Hi "Nobody", if you weren't paying attention this video was not about raiding which Cataclysm does well. It was about the open world leveling and game design being put aside so players could rush to endgame. About a dead world, where noone plays together. Oh wait, that's what everyone did for Cataclysm, they rushed to endgame as they do every expansion.
@@hagenisse You're taking what I said out of context: I came for the raiding yes, but left because the game felt worse. I'm agreeing with Idyl. I was just sharing some experiences about why I liked playing before criticizing it. It's ok to like some aspects of a thing & dislike other aspects of the same thing. Cata felt worse because, among other things, of the talents that he talked about extensively. Even though I liked the aesthetic design & raiding in Cata the talent system was a step back, but that didn't bother me at the time. In MoP & WoD, talents & specs felt much more homogenous, & I eventually ended up quitting in WoD (Idyl jokes that WoD was when Blizz stopped reporting sub #s because many ppl quit...like me).
Fact is, the core of the mmo is solid, its the extra systems and complications from later expansions that become a problem. Id love to see a new class, but in classic not in an expansion for example. If you make the right changes to the core without altering the core, you have yourself something fresh yet nostalgic.
I just wish Funcom never abandoned my precious Anarchy Online, either that or if WoW never existed. At least I have my retirement home of FF14 to die in.
Interesting that you discuss the success of Old School Runescape without mentioning the most impactful reason why it was so successful, the POLLING system. Giving the community a say (and veto power essentially) in how servers (and the game in general) develop. Kind of import as the failure of many WOW Expansions and additions, and of other MMO's, is primarily because the Devs didn't listen to their communities. An oversight or a choice? Color me curious.
@@JimMilton-ej6zi I don't like to cast aspersions, but yeah, I kinda got the same vibe. A lot of influencers just jump on hot topics without putting in much effort in an attempt to get some views. I'm not saying this dude did that, but I defs feel he missed the whole point on this one.
It gets worse for classic. We just got an update giving StormWind a buff they never had before, druids can now use pole arms, and guild tab looks like retail.
The idea that these classic games are only played because of nostalgia is false. I think it's likely a factor for a lot of people, but a good number of people I play SoD with, myself included, hadn't played vanilla, or in some cases, WoW at all. It's genuinely a really solid experience.
yeah imma have to defend the mists of pandaria talent trees. with mop every spec worked even without picking anything because the main abilities were baseline and the talents merely boosted aspects of a spec. before mop you _could_ be a shadowpriest and not take shadowform and mindflay because the game let you and youd literally be dead weight in a raid. i guess that was a good thing because you had the freedom and meaningful choice to have a non working spec, right?
Interesting video. Personally I much prefer modern MMOs (specifically Retail World of Warcraft), so it's nice to get some insight into why I've seen a lot of support for classic-style MMOs. Personally I was never a huge fan and find (at least Classic WoW) to feel pretty archaic and overly slow.
I hate to be doomsaying but I also feel no hope that this lost genre will come back with a focus on the slow paced leveling in an open world and an immersive setting rather than the overhyped dopamine hit game design we see today, with pay to win shortcuts.
Me who played WoW from Vanilla to the end of Shadowlands: I want to play season of discovery. My responsibilities and available free time: Oh.... well....that's nice.....
Decent show but you are a bit ignorant my friend, I hate modern WoW (Legion and onward) but Cataclysm is by far my all time favorite expansion, some of us are really hyped for it, actually quite many from what I've found!
Excellent video, but the closer it got to the edge, the more it felt flimsy. Games like Black Desert Online and Final Fantasy 14 or even Guild Wars 2 don't fit into the narrative at all. It's not really about MMORPGs in general, but more about the changes made to specific, very popular games. And even then it's not really a clear-cut, since retail WoW is still more popular than Classic.
Modern WoW isn't an MMORPG anymore, it's a third person fantasy combat game. I love it, but it doesnt feel like it's trying to be an MMORPG anymore. I like retail WoWs lack of levelling because it's about the in depth combat encounters at end game which are amazing. But if I want an immersive MMORPG experience, OSRS or season of discovery are the way to go!
dude.. moparscape its a dodge roadrunner.. hence the name mopar-scape.. and people didnt just have 40 phat sets on youtube, they had the full max stack 2147m phats..
Guild Wars 2 is a really weird mmo. I almost hear nothing about it, despite it being relatively big for an mmo? is it just because it's not a "Gamer" game like WoW or OSRS?
I have an unhealthy addiction to both National Treasure (Probably watched it like 50-100 times.) and Old School style RPGs. You got my sub 10 times over just by the first minute of this video haha
"We have to steal the vanilla client and emulate the server back-end to save the classic game from the corrupt, evil modern game developers!" - pserver pirate Nic Cage
If you're around in 10 years making a video about how classic MMO's were updated to death such that they lost their "classic" aspects and became modern abominations shout me out
I think the best reason I can describe for why I'm loving the Season of Discovery is that it lets me play WoW the way I did when I was younger. Because the phases have reduced level caps I'm not rushing to hit max level. Instead I'm playing the game the same way I did when I first got it; logging in, running around, and experiencing the world without caring if this is the most efficient way to hit level cap.
most people are doing spellcleaves/meleecleaves mindlessly farming SM to reach lvl 40, aka max level. Nothing is really changed. GS is required, XP is required to join raids, non meta classes have a hard time finding raid spots. The community is the driving factor, this will never change.
@@Gonzo13ethI started right before Sunwell. Wrath came out and I think my highest character was a 58 paladin that I used to financially support a bunch of 19/29 twinks. By the end of Wrath I had 4 80s all geared in pvp and ICC gear
@@Tokena14 All you need to do is find a guild with like-minded people. I never counted my gs throughout sod or cared what our guild group has for raids. You blame the community but it sounds like you never tried to find one for yourself. Don't play mmos as a random, especially old school ones. It was bad experience in the past as well
Having recently gotten really into WoW SoD, it was ENTIRELY the push into communities, from helping someone do a hard rune quest, to getting groups together to do content. The lack of LFG and the 'stickiness' of tasks is important. If you could instantly whisk yourself away from the current task, you quit and the first sign of friction. But when it takes 30 minutes of flying + walking to get into the dungeon, a single wipe, or even multiple wipes, won't scare off your group. People come together in hardship and that's what MMO's were missing, a reason to connect.
"SOD is dead to me. The leveling journey is boring, to be honest. I've leveled two characters to the 50s. I'm done with it. The end game? Oh man, these sweaty wannabes are so cringe with parse checking and having egos in an easy game. It takes forever just to join a group to do the content. I do not care to join a guild so I can stick to a consistent raid schedule. I'd rather do stuff in real life than make time for raiding. I just want to queue up and get in a group in a couple of minutes. I want a low entry barrier to get started and work my way up. In retail, I just climb at a steady pace with consistent rewards in mythic dungeons instead of getting PRE-BIS, TOP PARSE, COMP LOCKED just to do any challenging content, man. By the way, I am a sweaty gamer. I've played Tekken, League of Legends, and Starcraft 2 at a top 1-3% level. SOD for me is not a skill issue, it's a time issue just to do any challenging content when cringe lords gatekeep you, treating their raids like a NASA space mission. Why are we treating BFD and Gnomeregan like it's high-level mythic raiding or key pushing? The design elements of having raid lockouts instead of having loot lockouts like retail do greatly contribute to the gatekeeping. Yes, yes, wannabe sweats are going to yell at me to just make a group. I did before, and it's a lot of work. It's a lot of work when I just want to interact with the game, not getting competent people together. The SOD game design just isn't for me. I want more challenging mythic-like dungeon content. Hopefully, delves do that. Imagine some Mage Tower-style difficulty with 2-4 other people; that's my thing. I don't treat WoW like an esport; I just pivot to doing engaging combat. The reason why I love games like Monster Hunter and Grandblue Relink with RPG elements. I also closed my game when we spent 40 mins to get a group together for SM library only to be wiping on trash mobs, I could have leveled up so much faster on AOE farming with my mage. Yea classic isn't for me.
I got kicked from a group in classic for not getting to the instance fast enough. I got invited as the last person when everyone was already at the instance. I needed time to run to the bank. It was a disappointing experience to me.
Extra insight: Many OSRS players never played RS1/RS2, so they are not trying to get back to how things were when they started. This implies the problem is much deeper and speaks to a fundamental break in modern game design. If an old, polygonic game like OSRS can bring in new players in their millions, something is clearly wrong with the gaming landscape. Nobody knows how to make great games anymore. OSRS is a great game, there's no doubt about it. Not the best game, but compared to most games since 2013, it's god-tier.
So true.i never knew about any RS before until last year. I found out about it from Josh, since then its my go to grinder when the servers are down, or i play it on longer trips on my phone. Just love it. Same goes with classic wow. I never really played retail for more than a week, but since ive played bc demo when i was a kid, this has always been one of my favorite mmoRPGs until this day.
@@Domaister420 You might also enjoy Skyrim, Hogwarts Legacy, Warcraft 3, Minecraft, GTA Vice City, Crash Bandicoot 1-3, LEGO Batman series (though most of the LEGO movie tie-in games are great), and/or the Fallout series and Assassin's Creed series (early games). Just some great single-player games, focused on great game design and gameplay. Some more MMO than others, some more grindy and long-term than others. You might also like Ultimate Alliance 1 if you like Spider-Man and generic superhero/action RPG type things. Sadly, you won't be grinding for 500 hours or anything crazy, but you'll have a great time for at least 20 hours for 100% completion. Controls are not ideal on the older games, but the actual gameplay and design is far better than modern games, despite the limitations back then. :) Sadly, I cannot suggest many MMOs to you, as OSRS really is the best one in general. WoW Classic also seems good. You will likely see more of a trend to older MMOs and remakes of this sort moving forward. The data also shows that nobody is playing new MMOs -- yet OSRS has like 45 million players. It's truly massive.
