The Yamato anime series do have anti submarine warfare thing where unlike cloaking device, an enemy could hide in another dimension and you can set up something similar to depth charges to that dimension... At least that's AFAIK from watching the earlier season of the recent anime version.
Corvettes punch down, Destroyers punch up, Frigates swing at anything in sight. Battleships don't punch. They bodyslam. Cruisers are a one-ship fleet. Carriers sit back, take a smoke, and let others fight.
In space combat, assuming your setting allows for spinal weapons. Carriers are snipers, sitting back and point and deleting other ships at long range. The Punic-class supercarrier from Halo being an excellent example of the carrier role in space combat.
I was on a modern frigate in the 80s, so my mind goes to three things. 1. Missile picket/Scout-hunting with good sensors and probes. 2. Going places others can't. (Including the best liberty ports.) 3. Doing it all faster than everything else. (gassing up alot.)
How about the frigates of Dune? The largest class of warship in that universe that could make planetary landings, always struck me as a good definition of what a frigate is in sci-fi.
@@PositiveBlackSoul I think it also comes down to role. A frigate is often supposed to be versatile enough to react to a range of situation. This includes (limited) ground operations. For that it's insanely practical if a ship can land. It also makes it less demanding in terms of infrastructure for longer independent operations.
It seems like a number of franchises have the idea that only ships below a certain size can land on a planet. Intuitively it makes sense. So it doesn't surprise me that done and Mass Effect associate that with the term "frigate".
My favorite Frigate role in space combat has to be the examples in Homeworld and Halo. Where The Frigates are basically the Super Carriers's, Battleships's and Battlecruisers's secondary armaments with engines strapped to it. The Ion Frigate being the foremost example. Because sometimes DPS is all you need.
i loved the boarding frigate because it looked like a battlestar lmao. In my head canon there was probably an "elite" version of that frigate that could do kind of everything but smol, like the smallest version of the main ship that could be used as power projection, maybe even carry one or two fighter/bomber. I really just wanted a battlestar in "hero's ship" format lmao xD
IIRC, it gets more complicated when you read that 'cruiser' originally was a general term for any ship capable of long-range, independant sailing. Which included frigates. And modern frigates fill a role destroyers used to have, and destroyers fill the role of cruisers and battleships. My own classifications are - Corvette- smallest 'warship', meant primarily for in- and near-system security and patrol. Frigates- Meant as escorts in fleet formations, but capable of independent operations, though limited in range (exact dependant on setting and tech). Cruisers- The 'main' warships for a fleet, well armed and protected, capable of multi-role missions, very long-legged. Battleships/Dreadnoughts- The heaviest in the fleet, rarely operate alone, usually only leave a polities borders when a war is going.
Frigates also make perfect convoy escorts of merchants through pirate infested regions or convoys to ferry supplies during hostilities. Corvettes* for system defence so they can reach the outer edges of a system and still have the ftl so they can shift to where needed in the defence. * During WWII Canada had the 3rd largest Navy, but mostly Corvettes in their classification that were tasked with convoy escort duties. This is part of why the definitions are so fuzzy, different Countries used different definitions.
Even in current real life every country uses its own definition and a nation corvette can be more powerful then another nations frigate by a huge margin
Something that fascinates me about frigates is that, in most historical uses until the modern day, you weren't really seeing frigates in fleets. Age of sail frigates were mostly too small for the battle line, but they might be supporting a fleet. WWII frigates were too slow to even keep up with a battle fleet. Yet modern frigates have shown a big shift from that, often being the largest multi-role surface combatants of most navies that don't field destroyers. It's interesting how, as technology evolves, ship types change and navies just kind of arbitrarily pick old terms or invent new terms. Like how the UK was going to use "corvette" for destroyers until it ended up being used for much smaller merchant escorts instead. It's almost beautifully arbitrary.
In Star Trek Online (and probably all of Star Trek in general) the Miranda-Class was classified as a Frigate, as well as the Centaur-Class. For the role of Corvette, the Defiant-Class would be the one. The Saber-Class is marginally larger than the Defiant-Class, and the Steamrunner-Class is already evidently larger than the Defiant-Class. The one thing I've noticed that distinguished the Defiant from the Miranda was the firepower and the armor; the Miranda-Class was less armed with beam arrays and beam banks, while the Defiant-Class had ablative armor and could employ the heavy cannons.
@user-roninwolf1981 Trek is a gods damn nightmare for ship classifications. Generic 'starship' for every Federation vessel, widely varying ones for everyone else, most of which make them sound scarier than they are. First classification I remember for Miranda's were heavy frigates, then other sources said light crusier. I stick with heavy frigate, because frigate fits their smaller size, and heavy for the phaser cannons they mount. Defiant and vessels like her I give the special class of 'destroyer', a frigate sized vessel that is dedicated to combat. Their whole layout and equipment is for fighting. If a destroyer shows up, it's not for science or first contact, it's because someone's ass needs kicking.
Normally, I like that you guys dig up relatively obscure stuff to talk about, and not just what's big an trending. That's a big part of what makes your videos interesting. That being said, can you please cover the Super Destroyers from Helldivers! They are quickly becoming one of my favorite sci-fi designs- despite them being a bit of a 'do everything' ship.
One if my favorite obscure sci-fi is crest of the stars it has it's own ship classification and it cares about heat at during sustained combat!!! (My favorite ships are the missle ships called battleships in world)
I really think of the Super Destroyers as tiny carriers mixed with an arsenal ship. We've never seen them fight other ships, from weapon placement to interior logistics, they seem entirely geared for supporting ground ops. Even the mission timers are based on their ability to descend into low orbit and provide combat support, which is a unique feature... how many ships are designed to get dirty in atmo? :)
Frigates in Homeworld: The thing I’m constantly pumping out trying to figure out the best Rock-Paper-Scissors combo at the moment. To build Ion Frigates or not to build Ion Frigates
Homeworld frigates definitely fall into the "tight specialty" interpretation. My favorite is probably the Multi-Beam Frigates from Cataclysm. While they are not in HW2, we do sort of see where they ended up with the larger ships (especially the Battlecruiser) having "pulsar" beam point defense.
@@templarw20 If there ever was a game gearbox ought to remaster! With the right combination of multi-beams and acolytes you feel unstoppable. And the storyline is perfect.
By technicality all ships are submarines in space (as they have to be hermetically sealed). But to get to that particular definition of submarine it also has to do stealth extremely well. In that sense all ships with defined stealth capabilities are submarines in space. Extra points if the ship can maintain its stealth characteristic while engaging.
Honestly, you only need those and scout ships to beat the game. It's got the highest range (somehow) and has great value -per-point. Standard fleet is the Scout, 1 big ship, and 4 of those.
Ship definitions vary wildy in real life too. In the 1960s, the USN built several classes of 6000+ ton SAM-armed ships that were initially classified as "frigates" because their job was to escort carriers, the USN term for what the rest-of-the-world calls frigates being "destroyer escort (DE)". Then in the 1970s they decided to fall in line with the rest of the world, with most of these huge "frigates" being reclassified as "cruisers" and the smallest ones as "destroyers". Nowadays they go off size and "rate" (i.e. quality): cruisers are big first-rate ships, destroyers are smaller first-rate ships, and frigates are even smaller second-rate ships. All of them have all-round capabilities, just to different degrees. In the Royal Navy, by contrast, destroyers are anti-aircraft vessels and frigates are anti-submarine vessels, whatever their size: the Type 22 frigates were bigger than the contemporary Type 42 destroyers.
We needn't even mention all the various ships that were called frigate, destroyer and cruiser in the age of sail. "Fourth rate ship of the line" designated a class of ships that were called any of the above at some point, by someone, just aa one illustration of how confusing that conversation is.
Destroyers originally were 'torpedo boat destroyers' and that was their mission goal. Now, I think most of the US destroyers are bigger and more well armed than its cruisers.
@@jaredragland4707 The term destroyer was invented after the age of sail. It's a contraction of "torpedo-boat destroyer", i.e. a small fast ship with quick-firing guns that was intended to chase down and destroy torpedo boats. Navies soon realised however that the "torpedo boat destroyer" was a better and more versatile platform for the torpedoes than the boats, so it morphed from an escort into the smallest offensive ocen-going craft. Then when anti-submarine and anti-aircraft escort became critically important in the first and second World Wars, destroyers gradually morphed back into escorts, generally landing torpedoes in favour of more AAA and ASW equipment.
@@cp1cupcake The rampant size inflation started in the 1970s with the USN's Spruance class destroyers: 7000 ton replacements for 3000 ton Gearings. This was much criticised at the time, but the USN had it right and most navies have come round to this way of thinking. What the USN had realised was "steel is cheap and air is free", i.e. there's no point compromising the capabilities of your ships by making them cramped and difficult to upgrade in order to save on hull costs, when the latter are only 10% of the price anyway. Better to have plenty of "elbow room" and claw back the small cost increase from the efficiencies that result from that.
In my setting, frigates take a kind of "battleline" role in space warfare. They're on the front lines of any naval battle, and are easily modifiable for numerous roles. For example, C.A.F. (Cosmic Armed Forces, aka the human military) frigates can be turned into escort/bodyguard vessels for more valuable starships (such as more lightly armed carriers), or just charge straight ahead and bear the brunt of enemy fire then shoot back with particle/laser cannons, or even just becoming minor transports that carry 2-3 vehicles into areas larger ships can't get to (IE closer to the ground of a low gravity battlefield).
That kind of fills their age of sail role of being the smallest category of the ships of the line. The first rates would take the prime beatings while the frigates would screen the fleet and when line of battle was engaged serve as signal relays off line of the main shooting match.
I hear frigate and I automatically picture the ones in the Homeworld Games, they were the smallest FTL capable ships. the Ion Frigates were the best, just a flying gun and it was so satisfying to watch them come into range and open fire all at once.
@@carloshenriquezimmer7543And the battle in the Mutara Nebula in *The Wrath of Khan.* That's what made that battle so epic and suspenseful, that it still stands up today as how to make ship to ship combat dramatic.
It's so hard to pin down what a Frigate is. Generally I think of them as either semi-independent long range patrol craft or fleet support (especially anti-missile/fighters). They are bigger and more durable than than Corvettes, that are just above fighters in most senses, but well below cruisers in terms of combat capabilities. They serve primarily for scouting and early detection, but have no role in big ship fights outside of asset protection and can only really damage larger ships in wolf pack flotillas, where their numbers and relatively fast speed (for a ship) can be maximized to deal damage out of proportion to their relative weight with the enemy. But here the defining factor is weapons power. If your weapons power is too high Frigates become basically death traps (as happens in Halo), but if you have defenses or maneuverability that can make up for this short coming, then the fleet support/defense is their best primary role with again scouting and early warning as a dangerous secondary.
I like the original (modern) frigate distinction from WW2 which was basically a destroyer/upscaled corvette designed to primarily escort other ships. While destroyers would be similar sized vessels designed primarily for offensive operations. Similar to your idea.
Frigates are big enough to be useful in fleet defense and can work as fleet defense/anti aircraft/Submarine and radar pickets. But are also ideal for chasing the enemy or scouting independently. A Frigate is a serious threat to most vessels.
the way I see sci-fi Frigates being able to do the modern frigates capabilities as anti-submarine vessels is to have some Frigates be dedicated anti-cloaking ships. they got specialized sensor arrays that can't be easily fitted onto regular combat vessels and have ways of pushing cloaked vessels out of cloak for a supporting fleet to destroy. the sensor arrays aren't perfect however, but are better than nothing. this idea would especially be useful in settings where Pirates regularly have cloaking tech.
The thing is though in space, sensor power and capability is directly proportional to its size. A larger ship can pump a lot more power and have a much bigger sensor array, coupled with much more capable computer systems and more crew to manage that systems means a bigger ship is going to detect cloaked ships at longer ranges than smaller ones. The main advantage that a small ship would have in the cloak hunting role is that you can just build more of them, and even if a battleship ends up being far better at detecting cloaked ships, those are not the ships you want to be using for convoy escort missions and anti piracy patrols because of their greater cost.
@@ryuukeisscifiproductions1818 Using several small ships could also get you a better variety of viewing angles on any target, and if you're using active scanners then having them on a faster, cheaper ship could definitely help if Anti-Radiation-Missiles are a concern.
When you mentioned Starsector, I immediately knew you were going to call out the Wolf. It's fast enough to decline engagements it can't win, agile enough to flank larger enemies, armed enough to hurt them and cheap enough to be replaced when it invariably over-extends and gets blown up.
For me it’s the Vanguard due to its mix of ballistic and missile weapons allowing it to tear apart frigates while punching up against destroyers, cruisers, and even battleships when in sufficient numbers, and it can easily avoid fights it can’t take with its burn drive, when not using it to chase down ships or charge into brawling range. It’s also really well protected for its size, with tanking capabilities comparable to some cruisers with the right hull modifications and well times damper field activations. It’s also cheap to deploy and maintain, and they’re reasonably cheap to obtain, if not outright free due to how almost every luddic church or pirate fleet above a certain size will have at least one that’s recoverable after battle, with its Rugged Construction hullmod massively increasing its chance to be recovered, while reducing the likeliness of permanent damage when it does blow up, and mitigating the effect of what permanent damage the ship does sustain. It ticks all the boxes of a good frigate design - fast, has great versatility due to being well armed and armored, and it’s cheap and easily amassable. If they were larger, they’d probably be labeled as cruisers, and it just so happens that it was added alongside the Eradicator-class Fast Cruiser, which both has a similar playstyle and helps cover what few weaknesses it has.
@@specs.weedle I'm playing an older build at the moment and haven't gotten the chance to play with the new stuff. Gotta say, my favorite destroyer is the Enforcer. It actually perfectly complements the Wolf as a battle line warship that can stand alongside heavy cruisers while the Wolves execute flanking maneuvers and torpedo runs.
@@jimskywaker4345by pre-ww2 definition Defiant is a destroyer, a lot of the early destroyers were just ocean-going torpedo boats. as the years went on the definition of the destroyer got broader and broader until now where the line between frigate, destroyer and cruiser is basically a blur
No no, that makes a lot of sense. It's got heavy cannons, a blistering torpedo armament and high manoeuvrability, along with a small frame. It's a destroyer, alright! Just don't call it that, the higher ups will get mad
Modern frigates and destroyers have no real distinction. They did in WW2 when modern frigates came about but after missiles became a thing they were all redesigned to be multi purpose and those distinctions disappeared. You could call the Defiant either. If we do go by the original WW2 distinction though yes the Defiant is 100% a destroyer in purpose. Though if you go by the Federation -propaganda- framing of it as a "heavy escort" it would actually be a frigate. So hard to say.
Germany just makes no distinction between frigates and destroyers like many nations actually. Which makes sense. Post WW2 previously specialized frigates and destroyers were all made largely multi purpose so the difference has kinda disappeared.
Heavily armed? Lol. Lmao even... Oh wait you are serious F-126 class armament: 8 AShM, 16 multi purpose cells Arleigh Burke flight 3: 96 missile cells. Atago class Yeah yeah I know AL/KC etc.: 96 cells. Constellation class: 16 AShM, 32 cells. FREMM (Italian): 16 cells. Now you may ask, wtf this is anemic. Why is the ship so big? Because, and it may shock you, it's a FRIGATE. Same as original FREMMs. A patrol kind. It's main job is to partol the seas for up to 2 years non stop. Which means: redundancies, luxurious crew accomodation, etc. It will be a ship for the peaceful world that doesn't exist anymore. Obsolete before keel was laid down.
Thinking about you comment about real life frigates having an anti-submarine role, I wonder if the sci-fi equivalent would be anti-stealth. Flushing out stealth craft in various ways for allies to target and destroy them
For me, frigate = escort and skirmisher. Possibly small troops transport for landing actions. Something between Mass Effect, Halo, Battlestar Galactica, and The Expanse.
I love the Wolf, but the Lasher is underrated. It's not as mobile as most frigates, but it packs an incredible amount of firepower into a small, cheap package.
@@alecciarosewater7438 Yes, and that was a big sticking point for me initially. It was too slow to do normal frigate things. I never used the thing, so I was surprised when I started using it the right way and it exceeded all of my expectations. It's basically a mini Hammerhead. Give it another try sometime, give it a good mix of kinetic/ HE weapons. When the ammo feeder is active, it straight up out-guns most destroyers, even an Enforcer.
@@Kitkat-986I find myself turning it into a Point Defense platform for larger ships I don't want to burden with PD. Slap on some tracking hull mods, and its the perfect Carrier escort.
@@Kitkat-986In a fleet setting, no other frigate right now can beat an Omen. Not only does its EMP Point Defense lightning system allow it to delete fighters and missiles across your friendly ships, but it also boasts an admirable shield efficiency and flux capacity even with 360 degree omni shields allowing it to punch far above its weight given the right armaments and hullmods. I've seen it take on destroyers alone without issue. All of that with a very reasonable logistical profile of 6 supplies a month, meaning it's more efficient than scarabs, tempests, and Hyperions (of course), and you can field more of them at once in a battle. Omens are the perfect frigate.
I mean irl frigates are basically the same as destroyers with a different history behind the particular name in terms of purpose. Sure the largest destroyers are larger than the largest frigates. You can do the same in space obviously which can add a bit of world building detal to the setting. I kinda like the distinction that the modern frigate originated from though. Which was basically destroyers and upscaled corvettes designed mainly to escort other ships (even if the naming was mainly down to a lot of confusion) which then ended up being very similar ships. Of course that distinction disappeared pretty quickly in the cold war as multi purpose ships were the thing everyone wanted.
Starship Enterprise early on in TOS and TAS was seen as more of a science / exploration / diplomacy vessel, with limited armaments and shields mainly for self-defence.
@@royasturias1784 Said limited armament being once described as being able to destroy half a continent, and was apparently capable of glassing a planet or completely vaporizing a Klingon cruiser.
During FASA's time with the Star Trek RPG license, they completely redefined the role of "frigates" in Starfleet. In the game, frigates were pure warships, filling a capital ship role in Starfleet (where destroyers and escorts filled the escort role). The Federation Starship Recognition Manual had two primary frigates: Chandley-class and the Kiev-class. The Kiev was a fast frigate, which had more of a troubleshooter/hunter-killer role, which the Chandley was a beast bigger than the Constitution refit and filled a battlespace dominance role. If the Constitution was about equal in capability to a Klingon battlecruiser, the Chandley was there to pummel them into submission. Oh, and it was originally designed to deploy Starfleet ground forces en masse. I loved that idea so much (partly because it was quite different from both the Age of Sail concept filled by the heavy cruiser (Constitution) and the light, fast specialized escort ship that were active when I was in the Navy) that I have always incorporated FASA's fleet roles into my later games (and rebuilt all of the FSRM ships using the rules of the new game I was running...currently Modiphius' Star Trek Adventures). For other settings, I see frigates as a skirmisher in a space fleet setting. If you use the concentric spheres concept of fleet deployment, frigates and other escorts (like gunships) would be on that outer ring, playing both offense and defense against their counterparts, trying to open up holes in the defensive perimeter for strike ships to deliver their payloads. (Destroyers would have a more defensive role in this setting, true to their original purpose (i.e., torpedo boat destroyers); their job is to interdict enemy ships that have penetrated the perimeter and get in the way of firing lines of enemy strike ships. Cruisers would fill the strike role, both stand off and short range, and battleships would fill the "oh, lawd, he comin'" heavy hitter role. Carriers in this setup fill the command & control and small craft operations roles.)
I know it is listed as a light cruiser but I always felt the White Star from Babylon 5 was actually a great example of a frigate. Always felt that the Normandy, especially the SR-2 was inspired by the White Star, just something about the way it moves in fights or when dodging enemies. I'm not claiming it was inspired by it just how it felt while playing Mass Effect.
You could make the argument that "frigate" and "light cruiser" mean basically the same thing. They're both small to medium sized (though bigger than sloops or corvettes), fast, and long ranged. It's just that the terminology changed between the age of sail and the battleship era. For most of the time that new cruisers were being designed, the term "frigate" had fallen out of use.
Modern Frigates aren't usually multirole vessels, actually. The Office of Naval Intelligence usually classifies vessels based on a combination of speed, tonnage, and role, with Frigates being the second smallest fleet warships (with only Corvettes being smaller) and Frigates typically specialize in one role, usually anti-air or anti-subsurface in keeping with their roles as escorts. By contrast, Destroyers will usually specialize in two roles (either anti-air, anti-surface, or anti-subsurface), and Cruisers will be well suited to all three, hence why ONI considers the PLAN RENHAI-Class as a Cruiser instead of a Destroyer. Sometimes, smaller navies like the Norwegian and Russian navies will make multi-role Frigates that can basically do the work of a Destroyer while still being the size of a Frigate, but this is more of a consequence of either "political correctness," so to speak (Frigate sounds less scary than Destroyer), or an inability to really build larger ships.
Frigate has had so many definitions just in real life that it's hard to say what is or isn't a valid definition in any given SFU. At the beginning of the Ironclad Age, an armored frigate was actually the largest and most powerful class - it was mostly called a frigate because it only had one deck of broadside guns. This definition was a holdover from the Age of Sail, when a "line-of-battle ship" would have 2 or 3 full gun decks for a heavier broadside, and a frigate's single gun deck would be seen as insufficient for the line of battle. By the time you got to the Age of Dreadnoughts and WW1, the term frigate had almost entirely dropped out of use. WW2 saw a resurgence of frigate to mean a vessel smaller than the new destroyers, but then the post-war years saw fracturing of the definitions and sizes involved, with many American frigates of the mid-20th century being bigger than Soviet cruisers, followed by their reclassification as destroyers or cruisers.
Also, I was re-watching Green Lantern TAS, episode 18, where the team goes to a Spider Guild "frigate" that was just a quite sizeable space station - to each their own, I guess.
I always imagined frigates as a heavy cavalry type units... like big armored horses or camels... They are fast highly agile and relatively strong they also can take a certain amound of damage until they cannot fight anymore... Mainly used to sweep smaller enemy groups or break formations of bigger fleets in a blitzkrieg manner... they are also very useful in pushing back enemy units to regroup and reestablish fleet formations fast and efficient once your formation was broken by the enemy...
Oh boy, naval doctrine/design + science fiction, three of my favorite things! Anyways, I've always liked the term 'frigate' for referring to a sensor-heavy warship in sci-fi. Perhaps closer to a modern AWACS craft than necessarily what is currently called a 'frigate.' After all, almost every form of sci-fi 'ruleset' ends up with some need for a craft with good sensors, data processing, and data distribution ability. For the Battlestar Galactica-esque 'fighter-focused' settings, you want something *really* similar to an AWACS node to provide forward fighter/bomber direction, for the 'major ship battles' type of setting such as Star Wars you want something fast to serve as a scout, and for settings where engagements take place at very long range where the light-lag really factors in you want something that can sit up close to the enemy and relay sensor information (especially in settings where you have some FTL communications, but your sensors are still limited to light-speed). IRL that niche is covered by AWACS aircraft, but that's largely because aircraft are so much faster than ships due to moving in two very separate mediums. In space, a 'sensor-heavy fighter' and a frigate would both move through the same vacuum using similar technologies, so it's unlikely that the former would be any faster than the latter. And even IRL improved missile technology is making AWACS survivability a bit tricky, so putting a bit more ECM, shields/armor, and sheer mass onto your sensor craft to make it survivable would push it up to near the mass of a full warship. Therefore, frigate!
In the Sci-Fi spaceship classification I usually adopt, in my settings or when playing games like say, Space Engineers, Frigates are described thus: Frigate: fully independence-capable (ergo, equipped with provisions and if existing in setting, an FTL drive, able to support both rapid or long range redeployment) subcapital ship vessel. Versatile and modular designs, ranging from highly specialised platforms to taking on a more generalist role, the former both during fleet deployments or when doing a variety of support and backline duties. The latter, when deployed on lone operations. Make up the backbone of a given Navy. Usually the size of destroyers, but can if necessary dwarf them. Can be automated but are often built for crewed use, unlike many destroyers. Can be used for Escort, Electronic Warfare, Sensor Suites and Communication Nodes. Naming depends on role. This is very similar to how they are depicted in EVE online, which I must say is a surprise.
The closest thing to submarine warfare in space combat is fighting in dence gas environments like in a gas giant or a nebula. For that you need some ship that can take the pressure changes. Like a Delta Flyer.
There's one, in Space Battleship Yamato 2199, called "Dimensional Submarine" It has specialized engine & some kind of ballast tank that can make the whole ship to phase into another alternate dimension in real time Not to be confused with warp jump from point A to B to C, but it's literally "diving" between a space & subspace dimensional boundry layer
Frankly actual stealth ships are plenty close to submarines. Space is very big so the advantage of having a ship sit in a gas giant is a little dubious. Nebular aren't dense enough to matter.
The frigates from Homeworld 1, 2 and Cataclysm. Aside from one general purpose frigate, all were specialized in one way or another to help bigger ships deal with smaller ships.
Great vid ^^ And one of my Favorites, is the Idris Frigate in Star Citizen. Mainly because it fits the Frigate role very well, but also because the ship is very fleshed out, every bed, bathroom, corridor and cupboard is built into the model to help the narrative it will carry in Squadron 42. Only ship I've seen so well planned out inside is the Expanses Rocinante, and that's a comparatively tiny ship.
I love the Okinawa-class frigates from Starfleet Command. The old games. Small, nimble, and relatively flat. They never were that powerful as a ship, but tney were great in learning how to play the game.
The term frigate has varied so much that if you dont know what to classify a ship as, just add an adjective infront of the word frigate and you're set.
In my Sci-Fi I'm writing, the hero ship is initially classified as a corvette, it's old role, but is salvaged and revamped. By planned book 4, it's reclassified as a frigate, wince it finally gets much needed upgrades, especially in the electronic warfare side and weapons to better match the captain (and crew) capabilities.
Star Citizen's single player game, Squadron 42, is based aboard an Idris Frigate. It supports a few solid spacefighters, carries a spinal railgun for punching up, and has a number of defensive turrets for punching down.
@@blshouse it was announced as "feature complete" last citizen con and is since then in polishing, though how long that might take is anyone's guess. It's getting there though.
I would love for you to make a playlist of ship types in sci-fis. Like friget and corvettes and destroyer, but also stuff like sheild ships, sniper ships, drone ships and other roles and tech used for custom ship way of battle.
Love the Adamant, early game the wall of death tactic works so well with them, sit a couple behind a Battlestars flak screen and watch as they punch way above their weight.
I have thought about the system for my works. Dreadnoughts- Big tough ships that can act as almost like mobile bases. Intended for long term habitation for research and terraforming projects in peace time. While serving as command ships and brawlers/ heavy hitters in war time. Cruisers- All Rounder Ships that are mainly used for long range missions and Dreadnought escort. Though in later years they begin to see more independent operations in so called cruiser wings. They offer a balance of protection and fire power while remaining mobile for their size. Frigates- These ships are often used for missions that the larger ships would be unsuited too or too much for. Also for Cruiser escort. They tend to serve in patrols, anti piracy, and act as couriers (There is FTL travel, but FTL communication is limited) Corvettes- Smallest of the “Ships”, they are used almost exclusively for escorting Frigates in patrols and occasionally as couriers themselves. They are rarely used for anything more than low intensity actions. Then there are Craft like Shuttles and Fighters. Shuttles are used to ferry people between planets and small amounts of cargo. Fighters are the combined role of Fighter and Bomber, they can be equipped with mounted torpedoes and missiles that can target space craft or ground targets. While also carrying weapons to deal with other craft. They can also be used for surveys of planets, their targeting sensors capable of scanning the surfaces as well.
What you wrote there sounds exactly like how I classified my phase world ships. And of all of them the frigate was the best hero ship. Cruisers were usually way too much and the Corvettes were usually a little fragile.
Man Deadlock really is one of the best space fleet games. Killer job expanding the limited ship rosters of what it's adapting and hot take the turn based combat is actually better than real time. Makes it much easier to be strategic. Shame we don't get more games like it.
Its not a classification Ive seen used in Trek much (which as a franchise has more generalist ships and less consistent terminology as the video says) but I think smaller ships with more focussed operational profiles coupd be thought of as Corvettes - Defiant & Sabre (battle), Oberth & Nova (scientific) etc
I'd say the Defiant is not a frigate but rather more like a PT Boat. Small, nimble, packs an oversized punch. About the only thing not PT Boat about it is the durability, since it's very tough for its size.
From smallest to largest and separated by category Auxiliary Spacecraft: Fighters, Bombers, Shuttles, Runabouts, Gunboats Escort Ships: Monitors, Lineships, Corvettes, Frigates Capitol Ships: Destroyers, Cruisers, Battleships(Dreadnoughts), Flagships(Carriers) Super Ships: Stars(Battlestar/Star Destroyers), Hulks (Super Star Destroyer), Stations (Starbase/Babylon 5) Bird of Prey is an Attack Submarine and a War Bird is a Ballistic Missile Submarine
Corvette provide defense against enemies fire and little of support fire toward en enemy vessels! And sometime spotting thanks to their speed! Frigate flanking, or support with accurate line-up shot from a safe distance! Basically a Corvette with Destroyer firepower but have limited survivability! Destroyer is much more like a Cruiser in space battle. They can do anything, but lack in specific role! Cruisers acting more as a oversized-corvette. They're big enough to pack-a-punch and provide strong defense at the same time, but yet not so big to carry enough armor!! They will cruising close to the capital ships, provide support for them and also help the Destroyers on the outer flanks! Battleship will focus in one single mission: Kill enemy ships!! They need to be equip with heavy weapons and always have allies surrounding them or else they'll be packed up like a lone big prey!! Carrier need to have their own escort task force, cruising in the back of the formation and launching Fighters to cover for the whole Fleet!
It might have been helpful to present how a frigate was defined in the past. The "frigates" in the mid 16th Century were sailing galleys, basically oar-powered galleys with and sails. They were primarily coastal vessels and also in the Mediterranian Sea. They were very popular with pirates. They did not do well in the open ocean. The ocean-going figates of the 17th century to the 19th century were three-mast ships with one gundeck. These ships could not stand in the line of battle. Only Ships-of-the-Line (SoL, aka battleships) could do that. Frigates acted as scouts and messengers for these battle fleets. Because they were fairly fast, typically the heaviest class (both in displacement and firepower) below the SoL, and can carry enough food and water for long cruises, these ships often operated independently to patrol the sea lanes and act as commerce raiders in time of war. Basically the all purpose ship. These were the "cruisers" of the day since they would cruise the seas and oceans. In many ways, they were the equivalent of both the modern day destroyers and cruisers. With the introduction of steampower, steel hull and turreted guns, the term frigate disappeared. In WW II, the British neede a class of ships for convoy escorts. The primary opponents of these escort ships were submarines and armed merchantships. As such, they had decent anti-sub capabilities and modest guns. Because convoys were slow, the were only slightly faster than the convoys at about 20-25 knots, compared to destroyers that were typically 30 knots and faster. The Royal Navy dubbed these ships frigates. The US Navy has effectively the same class of ships, but classified them as destroyer escorts. After WW II, the USN adopted the term frigate. The early Cold War frigates still had escort duties that either specialized in anti sub or anti-air. Because the ships were small, a true multimission vessel was not practical till later. And, they were still not as fast as destroyers. However, they were cheaper and their presence freed up larger, more capable ships to do higher intensity missions. Today, friagtes can be true multi-mission ships, or stay very specialized and very cable in their specialty. Furthermore, many European navies have dropped the term destroyers and refer to destroyers and frigates simply as frigates. So what would space faring frigates be? Whatever the creaters of the universe wants. LOL Their mission may resemble those of the past or may represent a new class that fits a specific need in space.
Good, could you do Planetary Assault ships? Very underrated class of ship that the USMC makes large use of in real life and are vital for the marines do conduct large scale amphibious assaults. Planetary Assault ships would definitely fit a similar role. Right off the bat, I can name some very good ones. The Venator Class start destroyer for example. The UNSC Spirit of Fire is also a perfect use of this and is basically Halo’s version of Battlestar Galactica in terms of Hero Ships.
Banner/Crest if the Stars doesn't get any love here. The Roil-Class Assault ships are amazing Frigate analogues. They serve as a Hero ship and are very versatile in combat. Assault-ship duels are even compared in-universe to jousting and make for dramatic storytellying.
Battleships may get the bulk of the attention but i l9ve smaller capital class ships. Thats why my ScIFi game is going to focus on smaller "underdog" sized vessels for combat. No time left vids under my channel
IMO corvettes should be the next size up from fighters. I bought the fighter manual. Probably buy this one but I may just wait for corvettes and destroyers.
I really liked the Frigates in the Homeworld series at first. They can withstand some oncoming fire but usually only had only one weapon for the task that they where designed for. In Homeworld 2 it was nice to see Frigates with two weapons, one main and one secondary; like the Marine and Infiltrator Frigates having their main "weapon" being the ability to capture enemy vessels but also had the support of a secondary weapon. Similary, the Heavy Missile Frigate had big missiles for main weapons that had long range and a smaller missile launcher for extra short range fire that could intercept fighters better. Hopefully the third instalment of the series will continue this way of thinking and even give Fighters and Corvettes multiple weapons for engaging different targets if necessary. I have commented multiple times about the Homeworld series and would like to see a Spacedock video about the series. :)
I feel like you COULD translate a frigate to antisubmarine warfare in space, if you have a setting like Star Trek where cloaking or stealth is common; you have some kind of patrol frigate on the edges of a fleet, or patrolling friendly space with very advanced sensor arrays of some kind and looking for those cloaked ships sneaking around. Now as for the actual killing of those cloaked ships, you'd need to think of ways to make the frigate be good at that, but finding them is certainly something you can have frigates do.
When it comes to hero ships, it is best done with Frigate and smaller vessels (I think Corvettes are the Ideal hero ship but Frigates are an ideal upgrade). If the ship is too large, it is too valuable to be sent off on "Hero" missions. If the ship is too small it is too ineffective for "Hero" missions. That is why I personally think Corvettes and Frigates (The Escorts) are the best Hero ships for Military lite organizations. Frigates are on the larger side and that size allows for higher crew compliment while at the same time gives the ship internal Space to work with.
Love your guys info dumps on all the specs and techie stuff from various sci-fi IPs. Quick way to nerd out dip from reality for a minute. Thanks for all the content.
Speaking of anti submarine roles, the only settings I have seen space submarines in is Space Battleship Yamato. They hang out in Hyperspace, or subspace, or something, and pokes out a small periscope like sensor thing from a small portal into normal space.
spacefrigates are spacecruisers specialsed for a military role. Thats the reason you don't see them in star trek. Btw the bird of prey mentioned is more likely based on tactic either a "destroyer" or if used strategicaly and considering their were found in private hands dualuse cruisers. Like most of history in space warships tend to be smaller than civilian or dualuse ships.
Age of sail frigates where the cruisers of their time meant to operate independently in commerce raiding and anti commerce raiding roles while still having the ability to assist the line of battel in fleet actions. threw the 19th century frigits evolved into steam frigits then ironclads Iron clads then split into two different lines Iron clads for the line of battel Became Battel ships ironclads for cruising work became cruisers and the frigate moniker fell out of use until ww2 when there was seen a need for a escort ship bigger then the trawlers and corvettes but smaller and slower then the destroyers the british brought back the name frigate for these escort ships the United states used the term destroyer escorts. Has the cold war started and NATO formed the use renamed destroyer escorts to frigates to be on the same page has NATO has the cold war developed frigates split lines again specializing in anti air or anti submarine roles has the cruiser role lost viability because of aircraft and guided long range missiles destroyers became jack of all trade surface ships operating has the core of the fleet with frigits charged protecting the carriers and supplmenting surface action groups with extra AA or ASW has the threat needs
I like to think star fleet has so few classifications more because, unlike what most class it as, it isn't inherently a military. Or at least, thats not star fleets primary purpose. As such, rating its ships after its combat effectiveness/ role is not the norm. Cruisers are called cruisers because... well... they cruise through the stars. (hence why in the lore almost all ships are either classed as light cruisers, cruisers or heavy cruisers)
In my own sci-fi setting Frigates (& they also come in Light and Heavy variations depending on mass) are the most common sort of 'naval' vessels in space. Small and less costly to operate, but capable enough for most common tasks. In fleet actions they usually have a cruiser they are escorting which is their command ship, though 'pairs' and 'trios' are common to see even outside of fleet actions. Their only real downside is they *usually) have limited numbers of small craft and lack command and control facilities of larger vessels.
i like the celeschul orbital foundries dragon class interdiction cruiser in schlock mercenary. barring its name it is one of the mass produced ships in the series that has light weaponry for its size. it is affordable and has decent upgrades in the game.
When it comes to frigates i see them as the type of class to just shoot both ships of their size and lower classes, though depending on the scenario i can see some being good at taking down the bigger ships
How about the Reins class frigate? It's powerful reactor allows it to operate multiple EW devices and radars, and the weapon mounts are nothing to scoff at either. It's biggest issue is that it's ugly as heck.
In real life these classifications are a bit of a mess. But my headcanon for semi-realistic scifi (something in the style of The Expanse for example) is that corvettes are heavily armed for their size, but limited by range. They are used mostly for local area patrol/defense and in support of larger ships. Frigates are slightly bigger, not necessarily more heavily armed, but with more specialised capabilities such as EW and marines. So frigates are capable of a wider variety of missions and can act on their own if needed. I honestly don't really imagine destroyers much but jump straight into cruisers. Cruisers are mainline warships or can be more specialised in some cases. You could divide them into different types, such as battlecruisers being morea heavily armed and armored and a support cruiser could have facilities for repairing other ships for example. I also kinda don't imagine battleships to have a role but maybe sometimes some faction builds ships that are larger than cruisers just to have something that can reliably defeat any enemy cruiser out there. These could be flagships, only a few in number and always part of a larger fleet.
8:09, You could argue that’s kinda what Interdictors are, but Hyperspace and Space are much more symmetric in capability to strike eachother than the surface and underwater in most settings. There aren’t many Hyperspace launched weapons.
It'd be a hell of a niche though. A ship that just lurks in hyperspace, making tiny portals to send missiles wherever it needs them. I also think it'd be neat to have a Carrier-type vessel that emerges from hyperspace, drops 100 fighters into realspace, and then goes back into hyperspace until the fight is over. If the fighters need repairs or rescue, they have to win first.
IMO, when we are considering using existing (present or past) classifications of ships in SF, it's better to first decide upon an era that we'll use for inspiration, otherwise we end up in a jumbled mess. I.E. the frigate! This designation means 2 very different roles and sizes, depending on the era. If we take the old age of sail as our primary copy-paste setting, then frigates aren't small ships at all. In fact, they come right after the 4 battleships, that is if ships of the line are rated 1 through 4 based on the number of guns, then frigates are rated 5 through 6. Smaller ships aren't rated at all, and those would be brigs, sloops, schooners.... In this scenario, the frigates are large enough to participate in major battles, but still not large enough to form the main line, so they are more equivalent to cruisers. The largest ships that operate independently during peace time. On the other hand, if take modern navies or WW2 navies, then frigates are much smaller vessels, not really suited for prolonged and independent missions on the high seas, and are more of escorts, cheap patrol or littoral ships. I guess both versions could serve for a good hero-ship, but it will depend on the kind of story one wants to tell. Mass Effect Normandy? Modern. ST Enterprise? Sail!
I think even in the modern day the lines between classes are often vague and defined more by language/custom/lawyers (looking at you Japan and your "Destroyers") than universal standards of sizes and roles.
Regarding Star Trek, depends entirely onwhat game you look at. In Star Trek Tactical Assault, you get a ship that looks very simlar to the Constitution class, but it's nacelles are placed lower are designated as a Destroyer while the Constitution is a Heavy Cruiser. So the Aegis in Bridge Crew is either a Cruiser, or a Destroyer since it is the same design as this ship. It really bottles down to purpose. When I think Frigate though, I don't think small and manueverable, not really. Not in the age of sail. I think of ships that come alongside Man'o'wars to make you deader than dead. So uh... Sure fast, but also armed enough to blow up a town.
I wonder, do the Archangel and Minerva from Gundam SEED (Destiny) count as frigates? Or the Three Ships Alliance's Eternal? Or even the Ptolemaeus from Gundam 00?
4:55 But a Miranda is actually bigger than a Constitution (its way more compact but has larger volume wich if similar "density" would put it at a bigger mass .. certainly it has more displacement than a Connie
If I recall, Star Trek Starfleet ships were almost all designed with exploration capabilities in mind, so it makes sense for nearly all of them to be able to do some science. Specializations existed, meaning that the Defiant was purely geared for combat and the Oberth was designed to efficiently kill scientists with plausible deniability. Pretty much any Starfleet ship could participate in combat if need be, and was meant to defend itself from the most likely dangers it would encounter in its standard missions. I have a feeling that, aside from a few exceptions, Starfleet did not design warships with specific combat roles in mind. Still, there were size, maneuverability and sheer firepower differences between ships that could be used to classify them. Might Starfleet have been more successful in war if specialist combat vessels instead? Maybe. But what do you do with all those warships and their crew in peacetime? Most Starfleet officers join Starfleet as a career, not a stopgap for "greater things" or in reaction to a war. And I don't think conscription is much of a thing in the Federation.
