The Roman Toilet That Became a Papal Throne 

Of course you're a Lord, you've been carrying that dry British wit and sarcastic irreverence through all your videos!

This is a scam intended to catch rich Americans. Before abolition of the feudal system in Scotland it was possible to buy a feu and with it a feudal barony, but it made you a "Laird." It did not put Lord or Lady in front of your name any more than becoming a "landlord" does.

"Established Titles" is complete bullshit. I'm very disappointed in you as a historian for promoting this nonsense.

@@psammiad There's an English version of this, the (legitimate) sale of the title of "Lord of the Manor" of this or that village or hamlet. Some people think that it puts "Lord" or "Lady" in front of their own name, or the place name: but you can change your name by deed poll at much less expense. Europe is full of ex-kings, or descendants of kings and pretenders, some of whom have a profitable sideline in selling fantastical titles. Others are not ex-anything, and just make the whole thing up. For example, there is a Grand Duchess of Russia who is in this business, and a Byzantine Emperor. France has three: a King of France, a King of the French and an Emperor, who sometimes grant the same dukedom to different people. What makes this a grey area is that ruling monarchs used to do the same thing. James VI & I openly sold baronetcies of Nova Scotia to Scottish landowners, and later Baronetcies of Ulster to the English, as did Charles I. Rich men were pressured to stump up the cash. Men became rich overseas from slavery or opium before coming back to buy an estate and often acquired a title as well. Victorian aristocrats as well as businessmen got rich before mysteriously becoming lords. The grossest example is the Dukes of Westminster, who had the good luck to inherit land in Mayfair before it was built up and well before they became dukes. We don't usually know who they paid, or how much, except for the Prime Minister Lloyd George, who had a price list for titles.

Hi @toldinstone! The name of the ritual that involved this latrine was "Sella Stercoraria" literally meaning "The dung chair." Clearly they knew exactly what the seat was for. The idea was a ritual of humility for a newly elected Pope, after which scripture would be read as he was raised out of the chair, as in "the word of the lord lifted him away from his despicable human condition" or something to that effect. I think a caveat might be in order.

It would more likely be seen as a fact that the plebs is stupid as f.

Would totally laugh his/her butt off lol. Humans have always had humor.

"View 2 replies" [Click] ....When can we actually view them?

@@MrJm323 I can only view yours. Probably deleted by the -Roman Censor- I mean algorithm. Now being able to read more when clicking "read more" is far more annoying.

The one that came closest was probably Lyndon B. Johnson who reportedly called people in to the shiter for meetings and scoldings of aides. I heard he even did an interview while taking a dump, quite the power move ;) Source (because this is unbelievable as is) among others historian Robert Dallek’s biography "Flawed Giant".

It shows how much civilization collapsed after the fall of Rome

medieval toilets look almost the same

They still had toilets, but they preferred them to simply have a hole on top and otherwise be fully enclosed (just like modern toilets). If anything, it's the ancient Romans who were weird and unhygienic in this case.

The apertures look like keyholes, and the Papal Seal is two keys... I'm not suggesting... but I'm not not suggesting.

@@alltat The seat is that shape so you can reach through and wipe your freckle with the traditional roman sponge on a stick.

I can't but imagine that it was half a joke as well as a superstitious peasant belief.

Not so ironic; at least a couple of them would have being chuckling as well, if they knew.

Probably where it came from

Yes. I remember as a kid asking where someone was and the reply was "He's on the throne."

Porcelain throne is the name kid

We never called it the family throne, but the Sunday paper was always properly read on the throne in the reading room 🤣

The throne on which all people are equal.

If my memory holds there were kings who held court and took care of business on the john.

There are also many stories about LBJ involving toilet activities and dentures. Gross guy.

well there is one kind of history and another

I've never been to Europe but, just by traveling around the US you can really get hit with your own mortality. The existential "ancient history" laying around, and the ones that are new to you but, old to the rest. I could only imagine what a trip that be to be surrounded by it. I wonder how that constant reminder affects European humor and so culture.

Really makes you wonder what post apocalyptic civilization will do with bus benches.

They knew it was a toilet. That was the whole point of the ceremony

Imagine being a rich and powerful global organization so out of touch with the common folk that you think seating your leader on a toilet would serve as some demonstration of humility.

I'm pretty sure that in the middle ages they tended to use containers and cesspits and toilet seats went out of style. Maybe they knew it was a toilet, but since (edit: they thought) it was made of porphyry it was still seen as a great chair. I mean, if you found a toilet made of gold I'm sure you could use it as a seat if you wanted to show it off.

Apparently, the general impressiveness of the chairs (and the fact that they seemed to be made of imperial porphyry) outweighed the awkward cut-out in the seat.

@@toldinstone Fair enough. I can imagine there was at least one guy sniggering in the corner as the Pope sits triumphantly on his pontifical throne, there's some irony somewhere in there.

@@toldinstone hey, a nice seat is a nice seat, all things considered. Who can blame them for being practical?

I want a history of toilet seats video now!

I've seen that explanation too. There is some basis for it in Canon Law, which generally barred eunuchs from the priesthood, though 'dispensations' could be given. Supposedly the objection to eunuchs goes back to the early Church, when some Christians, including the theologian Origen, were said to have castrated themselves in order to reduce the temptations of the flesh. But the general view was that this was cheating, and too reminiscent of heathen cults like that of Cybele.

@@DavidB5501 It goes all the way back to Deuteronomy. "Let no man who is wounded in the stones, or who hath his privy member cut off, enter into the congregation of the Lord." That seems to bar them from the Temple as well as the Jewish priesthood. No doubt some clever theological footwork was needed to allow boys to be castrated to sing in mediaeval church choirs, and to continue to do so in the Pope's own Sistine Chapel until a little over 100 years ago.

@@faithlesshound5621 I suspect the ban was interpreted to only bar men who voluntarily chose to be castrated (for whatever reason) and not those who had been castrated before they could give consent. The same used to go for cremation; choosing to be cremated was considered a sign of paganism, but even under the old laws they would never consider St. Maximillian Kolbe a pagan because his remains were cremated at Auschwitz. (Nowadays the Catholic Church accepts cremation as long as it has been chosen for practical reasons and not religious ones. They had to give in, given the astronomical price of burial in a place like Hong Kong, Japan, or South Korea; they couldn't force people to bankrupt themselves to bury Grandma.)

@@faithlesshound5621 They still do but it is very rare nowadays bc it is voluntary and who would willingly let there nutz be cut.

Can I un-read this?

Anybody who doesn't appreciate that has no taste. lol, almost makes me want a novelty toilet myself!

It wasn't the craftsmanship that was why they used it, it was because it was seen as a connection to the Roman Empire, thus a symbol of the Pope's legitimacy in ruling Rome. People didn't fuckin forget how to make fancy objects out of marble lol, have you seen medieval art and architecture?

@@CollinBuckman it's not that they didn't have the technique; it's that they lacked the material. They very often reused porphyry and other precious stones because they were very hard to come by and very expensive. Besides, two things: the Papacy has a succession much more prestigious than the emperors. It derives its authority from God himself (but that's a theological tangent). My point being Roman lineage would have been secondary. Second, they might have understood it was used for defecation, but decided to roll with it because everybody poops. And the pope should be humble as well as majestic. Maybe some of them believed that the majesty outweighed the humiliation.

@@HolyKhaaaaan Very interesting, either way, they definitely weren't idiots who did not know what a toilet was (like a lot of people here in the comments are claiming)

the throne of charlemagne has a mill game engraved on the side.

I have a video planned on that topic, so stay tuned! The short answer: the Romans were always worried about decline, but even the most pessimistic were surprised by the unraveling of the imperial order in the fifth century.

@@toldinstone awesome! So glad to hear that. I’ll be looking out 👀

@@toldinstone they were very much aware of it, although in a different way, the Roman Empire dit not really disappear, not in a literal sense (Eastern Roman Empire continued to exist), nor spiritually or mentally (the Imperial laws, traditions, language and religion were continued, but there was no Western Emperor). They realised though how Rome's power had dwindled, especially after the city was plundered several times.

Well, Justinian attributed the state of the west in his day(530s)to laziness. He said the western emperors didn't work hard enough, but he is working harder than ever to run the empire. He became "the emperor who never sleeps" because of this rhetoric.

people shoudl knwo which historical region carinthia is karnthen still exists anyway

This sort of chair was a thing in the Middle Ages? I thought most people just went out in the open or by riverbanks to flush it away. Surely they didn't have plumbing.

The common peasant wouldn't have access to something like that to go to the bathroom - a random field, woodline or ditch would've been more likely to use. There's been other instances of people from the Middle Ages mistaking items from older periods as something completely different to what they were - poets like Virgil were considered a sorcerer by the twelfth century, Seneca was believed to have talked to Saint Paul, etc. Lots of Roman items were recycled by peasants and nobles not knowing what the items were, such as tablets, urns, and even places like bathhouses, which were turned into churches.

@@devonmolina5200 They had public toilets in medieval towns. At least in England these were pretty common by the 14th ct the latest. Before that records are not as clear, and as they were built out of wood instead of fancy porphyr and also were often placed on bridges (for obvious practical reasons) which were somewhat frequently rebuild, few if any survive other then those build into stone castle walls for private use. Point is: A medieval commoner can very reasonably be expected to have sat on these regularly. Especially if he lived in a town. And don't forget, that a Pope and his cardinals then are even more likely to have seen and used one. A lot of medieval Europe's hygiene practices - especially public bathouses, but it doesn't seem far fetched to say the same of public latrines - fell out of favor during the black death. Again: Medieval people were not stupid. Think about it this way: Does this chair resemble more a toilet of our days, or a latrine as they would have built it in medieval times - obviously the latter. If we now go, "oh it's so obviously a toilet", how much more they? I mean look at the chair. Do you think a medieval person would be like: oh my it has a hole just were you squarele would place your arsehole over it - what a coincidence! geee no idea what that could be useful for.^^ Let me think here sitting on the public latrine while talking to my buddies about that super weird chair the Pope has to sit in while everybody reminds him of remaining humble just right after his coronation, while we flatuate in chorus over the Tiber... I ain't no idea what all this might be about - but did you ever think about it? I bet even His Holiness has to do business like we people.

But this is the same time and place that used Caesar Augustus's creamains and urn as a mop bucket. I don't think they were mental heavyweights.

@@sleekoduck you mean the cremated remains of Augustus? Don't know about that, however I remember shallowly having read something, that the Vandals threw the Ashes of the Emperors of the Mausoleum into the wind, when they sacked Rome. Not quite sure whether the story is contemporary and reliable. Please elaborate.

Propaganda was already strong back in the day, ROFL

@@lucidd4103 Propaganda is probably as old as human civilization 😆.

So did you resist? LOL!

Exactly. Humility AND ancient Roman grandeur in one.

My uncle had one of those certificates in the 1970s declaring him an honorary beefeater. He hung it in the bathroom. I always wondered where it came from. To me, it was worth the 40 Euros just to find out. ~The Lady Sleekoduck 👸

I wasn't gonna comment it, but your comment is a suitable place for it. I've imagined a fiction setting in the future where all plots of land in Scotland were sold to give lordship titles and all the North of England is a big forest now.

@@sleekoduck Yeah, my grandfather got a family coat of arms from one of those services. They always seem to discover that yes, your family was indeed of high enough rank to bear arms back in the old country, but if you get the deluxe package, they'll discover that you're of royal lineage. But so what? He basically paid for a piece of artwork and didn't really pay much heed to any of the sales pitch. And of course the vast majority of people who get these bogus lairdships don't take it seriously either. But this company is really engaging in some shady and deceptive marketing, and the Scottish government is none too pleased about it. Of course, to get a real British peerage, whether Scottish or other, you'd have to live in Scotland at least half the year, live there for a long time, give lavishly to local charities, give lavishly to both political parties, get actively involved with local organizations, and otherwise spend years establishing yourself as someone who can be taken seriously and who's committed to contributing to society. Then and only then, maaaaybe you'll get some sort of minor peerage. The UK especially doesn't hand those out like candy, unlike some places, like Saudi Arabia with its myriad princes.

@@valmarsiglia There isn't even such a thing as a family coat of arms. The deeds to a coat of arms belong to an individual, who has the sole right to use it or give permission for others to use it.

@@SentaDuck Yeah, good point.

You mean Prez Joe Brandon already ordered his? Glad he could afford the”inflated” price. 😂😂😂

We use that phrase as well. The toilet is referred to colloquially as the throne or the pot here in the United States.

Most likely of exertion from "pushing" too hard. It's still a moderately common cause of death in the elderly or infirm today.

In Poland (which he was king for a brief period, until he saw a future queen he must have to marry that is) unofficial legend state that toilet was unknown cutting through technology in France and he essentially imported them from Poland to Western Europe.

That is so "bad"! lol

Hahahaha, 10/10.

Wikipedia gives the reasons believed behind the error in counting as “First, antipope John XVI was kept in the numbering sequence instead of being removed. Then, the number XX was skipped because pope John XXI counted John XIV twice.” Nice thought but sadly not true

No. There was an illegitimate claimant to the papacy who declared himself to be John XXIII way back when.

I'd imagine the Popes were among the most wealthy Romans of all

Probably, like with many sculptures we recognise, they put some filler in the XIX century.

Is there a connection between "laterine" and "latrine"? I would imagine so.

I rarely encounter a pun that is so bad it makes me angry while leaving me laughing out loud. I HOPE YOU'RE PROUD OF YOURSELF!