The Secret Lair Issue || TTC Ep515 

For me, there's just no question. I'd much rather wait for the drop to come in, and let anyone who wants one buy one. I got bloomburrow and the python lairs yesterday, fine, dandy, but that absolutely, positively does not make up for the unpleasantness of fomo marketing. And it's clear that either they were completely wrong about "having demand dialed in", or they're using that information to generate as much fomo pressure as possible. Very, very unpleasant.

On his vid Prof has the feedback link, and stresses the same issues that Kathleen did about being nice to the reps you talk to.

The two french soldiers, the ones that state "your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries" Would be a great reprint of brash taunter

After an hour and a half wait in line, I was lucky (?) to get the Monty Python/Bloomburrow bundle that I put in my cart. I got it in the mail four days later. Yet, the whole experience feels tainted because of how many people who did not get to buy one.

For those interested: Cameron was not delusional, there is an Icelandic translation of Dracula called Makt Myrkranna or Powers of Darkness. From what the wiki says, there are more overt sexual tones but not bisexuality. But did skim a bit

Idk why wizard doesn’t pre-print the first batch. So if you’re first in line you get it faster, then print to demand the rest.

Also, if you have "demand dialed in", then just use that for an up front print run! Be like "ok, the first x many orders get it right away, then it's print to demand." and put up a little flag saying "hey, our up front stock of this sold out, this one might take a couple months, just fyi". There are probably logistical reasons they don't do this, but it seems like the best of all worlds. If you miss out, well, you just have to wait a few more weeks for your lair than the people who were there right away. Wizards gets the money from everyone who wants it, instead of scalpers.

the uncommon 4/4 for 3 and a green know as Roaring primadox, what a legen

Surely Brave Sir Robin would be a great Norin the Wary?

Yeah, the entire cast of Python were highly educated, as I recall, Terry Jones and Michael Palin were History majors, Eric Idle was an English major, John Cleese was studying to be a barrister, and Graham Chapman a medical doctor. It explains why costuming and other details in their movies are very often historically accurate.

To Cameron's point, one of my favorite comments from my medievalist professor was that her favorite cinematic depiction of medieval literature was Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail. She considered it the most accurate.

Im really happy that i got 2 out of the 3 secret lairs i actually wanted since the change to how secret lairs works. But that still doesnt change that i wish they would just change back the way secret lair works.

secret lairs dont ship to where i live, so having to rely on friends or family abroad *IN ADDITION* to the extreme fomo isn't making the experience any better. i much prefer if people don't have to take day offs to sit in front of their screens and constantly press refresh

The scene with all the ladies in Holy Grail took place in Castle Anthrax.

The thing that kills me the most about the limited print run lairs, is that right before they swapped to that, they seemed to have started doing a hybrid model, where apparently they had printed a small amount ahead of time and then printed to demand. Maybe I'm misremembering, but I remember some of my lairs before the limited print run that I ordered got to me in like less than a month. Not only that, but the first couple of drops they did at the beginning of the limited print run, they waited the WHOLE 30 days before starting shipping. Seems like they start shipping immediately now, but it was stupid that their whole excuse for doing limited print runs was to reduce shipping times, and then made us wait an arbitrary amount of time, anyways. I was a huge lair fan, but I hate what it has become

Cameron, the Roaring Primadox thing goes back even further - Visions had Stampeding Wildebeests, which for 2GG is a 5/4 with trample that in your upkeep makes you return a green creature to control to owner's hand. I remember that being mostly a downside right up until they printed Wall of Blossoms. Good times, and I am also enjoying drafting the frog deck on Arena right now.

My response to the Secret Lair issue is why can’t be do both. For those who really want it they can buy it right away and it ships right away, and for those who want it but can’t buy it day 1 hour 0 they can still buy it but they have to wait for it to arrive.

I managed to get one of the Monty Python and the Bloomburrow drops. It did take some time to get from the shop to the checkout, about 45 minutes.

I’m scared about the mystery boosters 2…I want a box so badly but I fear it’ll be over priced or under stocked.

I also had the same experience (except i had to wake up at 6am local time) where i got the non-foil bundle into my cart because the foil bundles were already sold out and then waited an hour in queue just to get to get to and empty cart.

As soon as I saw the MP Secret Lair was a thing I was like "there's no way I'll be able to log on and buy this before it sells out." I remember Prodigal Tim from back in like... I started playing right as Ice Age came out. And I don't remember how I learned to call it that.

The frog gimmick is pretty amazing. They're hopping back and forth to your hand. Because frogs. 10/10. No notes.

here for the frog love, but you missed my favorite frog: Long River Lurker. When it enters, it makes a creature unblockable, and you can flicker that creature when it hits a player. With two of these or one and a Stickytongue Sentinel, you are getting damage every turn and setting up your engine for Tree Tree Scribe or Dour Port-Mage or whatever else you have going on. Absolutely vital uncommon for the frog deck

related to Cam's comment, Jolly Gerbils should really be Mice or their own creature type if they were trying to group them cladistically. Entirely unsure why the "hamster" type was chosen, they're much less closely related.

One of the best and worst features of the internet is the ability to send information faster than ever before

Cam, we are in absolute agreement on Sunshower Druid. My favorite boy from the set

Excellent, as always. Thank you. I think you are thinking of Roaring Primadox.

They can easily hybrid the drops. Make a few hundred already done so people first in line and excited for the drop get rewarded early, then keep it open for the month. They might not get it for a few months, but at least they would get it and have the ability to purchase the drop around their busy lives.

Everyone loved the Princess Bride secret lair. Everyone hates the Monty Python secret lairs. Both were made with the same care, the same creative flair, basically the same everything. Except the Princess Bride was one (1) lair that was available as long as you wanted. And the Monty Python was two (2) small lairs that nobody was able to buy.

Completely agree with Cam, the frog deck is so much fun to draft. I also love that he thinks that while also thinking all the cards are worse than they actually are lol.

Another hypothetical Monty Python card: Selective Snare for them all getting arrested in the end. (bonus flavor points if you play it naming knights)

One interesting context that I don't see much talked about is that when they made the decision to drop print-on-demand it was preceded by a huge jump in the number of Secret Lairs, many of which were poorly-reviewed. I could easily see some analyst looking at a trendline graph and seeing "lagging demand", resulting in an executive trying to juice the numbers via pumping up demand via artificial scarcity.

in 1996 i used The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale as Camelot. it was immediately stripped the first time i ever played it. "On second thought..."

I've heard Mark Rosewater talk about having to destroy unwanted product on his podcast before, so there's no problem destroying overruns. WOTC monopolize printers so completely that they ostensibly have to book print time months in advance. They seem to be single-handedly keeping a diminishing toy empire afloat with profits. So, it's not that there's a lack of money or raw logistical capability. If they *are* running into logistical problems with printing, it's only because *they are printing too much product already*.

Hear me out- Ratchet Bomb as Holy Hand Grenade. "1, 2, 5."

It's not gonna happen, but I kinda hope the animal groups replace the Guilds for lingo. Boros, Jund, Izzit... they have personalities, they do things, but when you're coming in blind you have to learn those. With the animals there's already something people can picture. Frogs are hopping in and out of your hand, Bats lifedrain, Mice swarm, Rabbits swarm even harder... newcomers might not know right away what an archetype does but once they find out it's REALLY easy to remember.

This is just the latest episode in the long-running saga which is WotC and Hasbro convincing the world that proxying cards is totally cool. (outside of tournament play of course)

ideally you'd do both; have some product ready to go and then print to demand after for a set period of time. That way; everybody wins!

To me, the biggest thing about secret lair print runs now is that it's emblematic of the problem with vocal minorities. Secret lairs as they were last year are fine. Outside of one-off issues like the coin flip deck, production time was reasonable for a print-to-order product. But because people wouldn't stop - forgive my bluntness- whining about what was honestly a reasonable non-issue, Wizards took action by moving away from the print-to-order set up and instead printing a limited number of cards ahead of time. WOtc isn't blameless, they chose to listen to these complaints, and It may in fact be entirely profit-motive. But whether this was a purely profit driven move from wotc, or a genuine attempt to listen to customer complaints, I blame This vocal minority for complaining about something completely reasonable and giving wotc the impetus to make a change that ultimately made things worse.

The single color bloomburrow cards that care about creature types will always care about types they share a color with. So the quirion frog cares about frogs, squirrels, raccoons and rabbits. Aka GU, GB, GR and GW.

I feel they should have made a reprint of reroute called “What do you mean?” With flavour text “An African or European Swallow?” to interact with the Bridge of Death in the most perfect way

I clicked on the video and am leaving a comment for the algorithm even though I'm not going to watch this episode. I've found that engaging with the negativity around the online Magic community has really taken a toll on me, so I'm choosing not expose myself to it anymore. First it was people complaining that Secret Lairs took too long to ship when they were print-to-demand, now it's that there aren't enough available when they're pre-printed. There's just no winning with the online community, and I don't want to deal with this kind of negativity anymore. I look forward to the next episode.

I mean: Taunt from the Ramparts is right there. 25:57

King Arthur as Kenrith

Really enjoying this more optimistic take on the format, I'm glad you folks are having a good time. The Limited subreddits I'm in are doomsaying about aggro lol. Also, as of me opening this page, nobody's named the card you were trying to remember - it's Roaring Primadox from M15. That set had a minor ETB theme in it with cards like that and Invasive Species, itself improved on in Bloomburrow by Stickytongue Sentinel. Given it was a core set from 10 years ago I assume your payoff for all this effort was making an extra 1/1 soldier or something.

IMO, the obvious pick for Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch would be Ratchet Bomb, as it's the first card I could think of in its category that actually counts up in some way. ("One...two...five!")

Luckily I was able to pick up a copy for my uncle that introduced me to both magic and monty python. And when I was leaning about magic he said that prodigal sorcerer was called tim. The limited print runs suck, if I missed it I would have missed a perfect gift. And it sucks for everyone else that missed it and wanted a copy.

“This can’t be better for Wizards” Ah, how quickly we forget that wizards laid off hundreds of employees in their most successful year ever. Wizards doesn’t know what’s good for Wizards lmao Edit: I feel like bloomburrow is Just Right. It feels nostalgic both for things like Redwall and past Magic, and it feels simultaneously Not Weak without being Too Powerful

I got in line almost as soon as they were available, had to wait for an hour in line to complete my order for this SLD, and it was at my door in 4 days. The last print to order drop I bought was late last year, and it only took a few weeks from checkout to be at my door. I'm in the US, so shipping is much quicker for me, but 4 days vs 3 weeks is negligible if it means everyone who wants one can get it, and everyone can actually wait and mull it over before the order window closes. Genuinely terrible experience now. And new cards still feel grainy and awful, for the most part.

I am old enough to remember quite clearly calling ProdSor "Tim" at the table for reasons that are lost to time. So I absolutely had to get that Monty Python SL. It was a moral imperative.

This is presented like an "either or" problem. It is not. Every manufacturer has inventory they pre produce and if the inventory is emopty but there Is still demand, they restart production. The solution would be to have a first batch that is quick and if you are not among the first whatever you have to wait but you still get your product

I don't understand why they can't have a hybrid model. I'd have Wizards print approximately 80% of what they estimate would sell ahead of time, and then print the remaining difference in sales as print-on-demand to meet the difference. If its a slower sale than expected, people get their product almost immediately and not a lot of wasted product. If its wildly more popular than they anticipated, everyone that wants one still gets to buy one. I'd rather they just dump them entirely, to be honest. I can't stand weaponized FOMO.

The latest Secret Lair system feels like waiting in line for a Graphics Card during the pandemic.

In the UK and EU the waiting times for delivery of Secret Lairs are just as long as they were before they changed to limited print runs. It hasn't benefited us one bit

It'd be so much better if they went back to print-to-demand, even if it meant slower shipping times. Nobody wants to miss out because of limited supply. "Better late than never," as they say.

I've got some Bloomburrow Planeswalkers coming in uh... it says tomorrow. I guess I'll find out if I can tell people to Nadont. The Secret Lair situation is a real bummer, especially since I really don't think they needed to change. Or I don't know, maybe have a predicted amount pre-printed and a second print run if you need one? I think people would rather late than Sold Out. As far as Bloomburrow (I love this set so much) I am with Cam in only wanting to draft frogs forever. I had Dour-Port Mage and the Lilysplash Mentor in a deck, and I have never loved a draft deck so much.

i havent played magic for like 2 years now - mainly for being increasingly broke while they pushed out more and more premium products - but staring at bloomburrows really tempting me,,, theyre just lil guys ,,,

I'm still crying over missing Miku round 2 due to lack of advertising even though I was available at the time...

honestly, how hard would it be to reprint the secret lair as a whole? It screws over the resellers and allows more people to get their hands on the cards. It's not like they don't have control of the printing schedules

I put together a near perfect version of the Bats deck in draft. 7 wins achieved, I worry I will never be able to draft as good a version of the deck again.

Stock seems to be getting lower and lower for every Secret Lair release (or scalpers are just getting more and more of them). I remember wanting the Rovina Cai Artist Series and it sold out in hours on the first day of the Equinox Drop earlier this year.

Count me in with the many people who couldn't give their money to Wizards. I was busy with on a Monday, and by the time I got to the site, all the Python sets were gone.

I'm a big fan of vocaloid music and I don't live in the america time zone, so my experience so far with the hatsune miku magic lair my experience has been: 1. get up at 2am when the sale starts 2. sit in a queue for 40 minutes at 2am stressing about the possibility of it selling out. 3. make the purchase and go back to bed 4. wake up in the morning at a usual time to see its sold out so i have to do the same thing next time. this will likely be the last series of secret lairs i ever buy if nothing changes its miserable. I'm only sticking with it for the miku merch, magic isn't worth this.

Miku's Sold out in an hour, one of the others sold out in 3 hours. And yeah the Monty Python one WENT. Luckily I was able to get one of each in foil and non foil :) Also, shipping to Australia still sucks, got the last drop (Miku Part 2 / Summer Superdrop) shipping email on the 27th of July, Tracking started working on the 31st, and its "on the way to your region" as of the 2nd, Est delivery 14 - 16 August, there's already hundreds through TCGplayer so *Shurgs*

Boros Mice has been getting me a lot of wins in standard. And ive been seeing a lot of it in mono red which have been getting big kills by turn 3. Its so powerful.

Why can't we get a nice middle ground? Have it for sale for two weeks, to order, then start printing them after the first week. That way it helps hedge the amount they have to print and the amount of people who miss out on them.

I did a Two Headed Giant tournament with my partner for Bloomborough Pre-Release and I pulled TWO MOOSE!

The bad part is I don't think a reprint is possible; not because I think there's any enforceable promise not to just the nature of the printing industry right now.

Thing was for this SLD (Monthy Python) high demand just because. I live in the Netherlands so the drop went live at I think it was 17:00 (could be 18:00) so I was ready for it to buy one for me and a buddy. I guess for other people in the world the live time is of course a issue. I applaud myself for not buying 5 cause I could. Yes I waited 1hr to go into check out.

Regarding Roaring Primadox, I am delighted to inform you that I saw a guy take down a Standard FNM with a mono green deck focused entirely around Primadox value.

On Monty Python cards, Brave Sir Robin should be Norin the Wary.

Bloomburrow limited just feels so on-rails. While it's not as bad as original Lorwyn or Ixalan in terms of locking you into a creature type, you are still punished severely for even thinking of pivoting in a Draft or having a Sealed pool that lacks key pieces or not enough of a specific creature type.

I thought this was about the fact secret lairs are being shipped with no cards.

The fact that they charge these prices and then make the bird, a totally playable card, a two-sided card insted of two cards is the most brain-afk type of suit-wearing controller decision made in an excel sheet they could possibly come up with. If they are actively - and so obviously - trying to keep paying customers from receiving value (compared to the horrendous production costs of another piece of cardboard) they will not receive a cent from me for any Secret Lair regardless of theme/topic/design. They can brag about the high (misjudged!) demand and limited editions in their internal reports, but the fact of the matter is these products show that they don't understand their target group.

I started playin Magic in 2002, in the 9th grade, around the same time I first saw Holy Grail, and legit had no idea THAT is were the nickname for Prodigal Sorcerer came from. TIL.

I'm still waiting on Kickstarters I've backed in the late twenty-teens. I do not mind waiting on treats for myself. It has never been an issue. It will never be an issue. FOMO is an issue.

This is just my opinion (TM), but if part of the issue is just waiting for some people, couldn't they print some in advance to sell for a higher price to the people who won't be patient the day of and then print the rest to meet orders and ship later? Seems like a way to solve both "problems."

I'd rather have the chance to browse and consider and maybe if I changed my mind even place a second order and have to wait a while to get my cards than whatever is currently going on. I am biased because the harder a company works to force fomo into a product the less I am willing to engage with that product just in general.

I just made a pauper non singleton bloomburrow cube. it is great to draft.

I completely missed out on the advertising for the monty python stuff because I just didn't have the bandwith for the constant stream of new prints. WOTC finally print a secret lair I want and now I can't buy it because.....they don't like making money? I was buying so much more stuff before they began this deluge of sets and products, now I just buy singles every once in a while.

Glad to hear that there are others who prefer the non-foil SLs. Has the print quality improved at all?

I have considered every secret lair until now, in terms of buying. If this is the new normal for them, this is the nail in the coffin.

if secret lairs are meant to be shipped quicker why did it take over a month just to get a tracking number for my Hatsune Miku Secret lairs(Ordered 24 of June, Tracking number assigned 27 July, as of 6th of august still yet to be delivered )

I have a feeling they might have a contract with Monty Python to only print X secret lairs since it isn’t an IP they have the rights to use on a regular basis like D&D. Wizards wanting to make secret lair more desirable by having them be limited print run as they changed it to would be great if it was limited quantity for the foil version and print to demand for say a week for the non-foil version. I feel like that would eliminate a lot of the outrage from what happened with Monty Python if people could have still ordered the non-foil

I only bought a few Secret Lairs, never really been interested in them. But I would say that if ppl REALLY wanted them, then it'd be worth the wait. 14th + 15th Doctor, John Avon, Hatsune Miku, Rebecca Guay (I think RG had one) the ppl who really want them, will get them eventually.

They must have had Taunt from the Ramparts on the list of cards to include in these SLs.

Questing Beast//The Black Beast of Aaargh I know the beast is already a token, but this is better

Brave Sir Robin as Norin the Wary obviously!

Don’t know for sure but had heard the coin flip deck issue was because of problems with the bonus coin they included. So wasn’t even related to regular card issues. I live in Australia and these things go up at 2am our time, I also have been signed up for emails and haven’t received one in over a year now. This whole experience has killed everything good about secret lair and I’ve gone from buying 10-20 a year, to 0

Is there a special composition of play Boosters for Bloomburrow? Like i heard a lot about previous draft Boosters containing at least 1 dual coloured uncommon etc. But found nothing for this edition so far.

22:40 castle anthrax?

Sir Robin Norin the Wary

Are you sure you aren't broadcasting live from the Port of Rishada on the plane of Mercadia? :P

the froggies have long tongues so thats why they have reach!

0:30 wait does the podcast always format itself on the stack?

selling out is good for wizards cause they can go to shareholders and be like look how quickly or product sold out.

Kathleen looks baller.

Roaring Primadox

Sir Robin as Norin the Wary, perhaps?

I'm with Cam, Frogs all the way