If I had to guess, I imagine the reason the difference between degree 1 and 100 is so much greater than other paragons is due to pierce. With other paragons they gain a ton of extra peirce that probably ends up going to waste, but with the spike factory pierce is essentially the same as damage and none of it gets wasted.
@@captainlurb wouldn't pierce *multiply* the damage? If a spike pile of 10 spikes (pierce) deals 2 damage per spike, it would do 20 damage, but if it had +5 pierce it would basically deal 15x2 damage, 30 in total, instead of 10x2+5 (25). Edit: JakubG pointed out that pierce is equivalent to spikes in the pile
Hi. Thanks for showing off my mod. I intend on revamping everything into an expansion pack rather than the classed packs. This expansion will include fully fleshed out ideas and entirely new models for each paragon. If you have any suggestions let me know down below.
I think the mod was very interesting but I think it should be more balanced. The expansion sounds great because Ive never seen a paragon mod with a new model (from my very limited knowledge) so that would sound great.
I believe it scales so well because pierce is "consistent" on spike factory, unlike with most towers (where pierce means a possibility for extra damage). With a linear (step) increase of pierce AND damage, if the pierce is always used (as it is with the SF), it ends up being an exponential increase in dps. If the mod follows the same formula for power x degree as the vanilla game, then it would make sense that the spike factory would scale so well
yea this is why permaspikes is so good. it doesnt get diminishing returns from alch buffs and village buffs. theattack speed just means ull have a bigger pile of spikes, and all the pierce from the alch buff will be used.
The mines aren’t “timing out”. There’s a max amount of spikes that the tower can have on screen at once. Once it throws a new mine out, the oldest one goes away. Same thing with the permaspike.
@@nagisatsukimiya1999 no, time out implies it's time sensitive. This technically isnt time sensitive, because if you somehow made it stop shooting, no spikes would disappear
So it’s the same as the normal supermines basically. They’re not “permanent” because once they blow up they’re gone for good. A perma-mine would be able to blow up multiple times without disappearing
This actually feels like a really balanced paragon. Although it’s cheaper than the ninja paragon you do have to account for the prices of the tier 5 spike factories. With that in mind the price seems about right to me. And while it does really good damage on Logs it will be significantly less effective in shorter maps. All in all fair amount of damage for a fair price I feel!
I agree, I imagine getting a lot of pops on the spike towers could be pretty difficult, or at the least you'd have to play around getting the spike towers pops.
Yes but no. If you have the shortest map in the game and use spike storm, the spikes will be more condensed so it will all be used and can do massive amounts of single target damage.
catrop bombs would be good the flash bomb or the moab bomb should spawn a bunch of shadow caltrop that quickly despawn but high pierce and dmg ( sorta like spirit of the forest thorns )
@@luutuankiet9941 that's a way better idea than just throwing caltrops periodically. Should reduce damage from other projectiles if they do this though
Vtsg technically is a paragon or absorbs 3 towers mixed powers with it it gets the damage plus the other absorbed towers as exp and it needs a knowledge not an upgrade
I'm thinking either there won't be one, or it should have very clean pros and cons between using that OR a vengeful I'd imagine it being more like a sun god with 2 arm cannons and a portal, maybe gives its own special buff like how Vengeful has its own, maybe could even be the only buff that works on other paragons
These paragon mod videos have been a ton of fun! I’m super excited for the other support paragon mods :) Though I did have to turn down the brightness during the sped-up sections cause I thought the rapid mine explosions might give me a seizure…
At around the 5:30 mark, the reason why the first round was the best was because perma super mines carried over and you had a stash of mines initially which weren't present for your subsequent attempts
If Village paragons are added I'd hope one of the other 2 paths could get an attack as well. I always felt like the BTD5 laser would be nice on the bottom path village And speaking of BTD5 I'd also imagine the mortar paragon could use, or enable for other mortars, the kind of targeting options that the mortar had with the specialty building in BTD5
Doesn't it? I think it explodes when there's too many on screen at once, which is the same thing the actual Permaspike does, but Permaspikes don't explode like supermines so you can't tell
Just a theory: The reason the degree 100 lasted so much longer than the degree 1 is because, assuming it has the same damage curve, that curve applies to the boosted damage from the spike storm, as well as multiple hits from each spiked mine, making it exponentially stronger.
I would have liked if the Mod incorporated the "Smart Spikes" from bottom path, like allowing targeting a specific part of the track (like mortar etc.), first, last, close, strong and far. Also I would have liked if the permament spikestorm could be used with said targeting to make it more efficient or user-controlled if warranted. Also price-wise, this Paragon is quite expensive, as you need to pay for the very expensive 5xx to get it unlike Ninja and so on ;)
I think the 5 minute timer thing from permaspike is a detriment if implemented because if i remember correctly the explosion from timeout is 3x stronger than normal explosion so with more timer there are less chance from getting that juicy 3x damage.
I can't wait for the actual spike factory paragon. Spike factory is one of my favorite towers in the game and it should be insanely strong when it becomes a paragon
A lot of people have said pierce is what made the difference, but honestly I think the attack speed and damage on all the track spikes was the reason. The whole track being covered with spikes faster that also do extra damage seems like an exponential improvement.
I think with the degree 100, the explosion radius of the super mines is probably also significantly bigger than degree 1 even if the animation remains the same, which is probably why the bloons were being destroyed before the first bend. If you kept a close eye on the damage the ZOMGs were taking, they were consistently going into a damaged state about the same time down the path despite the white hot spikes having been basically all consumed by the lead ZOMG
We can tell this will be op as hell Edit: bannana farm will be possible, it will have to be changed to probably the amount you earn in total would probably work for it to be a paragon but lets see what ninjakiwi or the community would do.
For Spike Factory paragon you'd figure the spike storm spikes would drop Perma-supermines but its just regular spikes i feel cheated Edit: I dont mean the tower is bad, it does reach the 200s at paragon 100, what im saying is its not popping at maximum efficiency
Maybe drops big traps armed with built-in sentry turrets, and can build multiple? And to incorporate the middle path, it passively stacks ultraboosts on all surrounding towers each round
I sure it'll be some form of massively buffed sentry turrets, with maybe some sort of buffing aura and XXL trap interaction. I'd love it if they gave engineer paragon a nail minigun and extended the pin ability to affect up to zomgs.
I think the reason it feels so much more powerful is because if you add strait damage then that damage is also multiplied by the amount of spikes in each pile. A 1 damage spike will do 10 damage with bigger stacks a 5000 damage spike will do 50000 per pile. Each single damage is in reality 10x the power than if other paragons got the buff.
It probably scales so well off high degree because spike factories scale insanely well off damage bonuses. Each spike in the pile receives the damage bonus from things like alc buff iirc, it's one of my favorite eazy catch all builds for the mid game, since spikes can pop everything even without camo support. If it's getting like +1 dmg every 10 paragon degrees then that's like +20 dmg per spike pile per 10 paragon degrees. so like +200 dmg per pile or more at degree 100, and there are a lot of piles, and attack speed probably makes sure that the track is pretty full even when BADs start clearing the way. I think some people said this but it might be spike limit, not duration, that is the limiting factor, in which case replacing lost spikes as soon as they are used up with high attack speed makes a big difference.
part of its power comes from how it basicallly ignores the bloon speed, any bloon damage immunities, or really anything besides RBE. and it can deal with RBE
Very very far from the truth. All three paths of the spike factory is used many times. Permaspike tanks a lot of bloons, spiked balls destroy ceramics and moabs, carpet of spikes does good against ddts and bads. Spike factory is used in many chimps expert maps runs
The first crack at 140 was the best because the spike factory had additional mines set up already from previous rounds. When you restart it starts with nothing. I love these modded Paragon videos, I just wish you created a playlist to put them in so I don't have to search all over trying to find the other modded paragons you got to test out. Edit: Ah, you figured this out later on in the video anyway. GG
Degree 100 overseer is better than degree 1 because not only does it have the double damage and double attack speed, but pierce also increases. Usually pierce doesn't matter for things like the glaive dominus and dart paragon, but spike factory spikes are based on pierce. Like a default sfactory throws out spike piles of pierce 5, or 5 spikes. So assuming pierce gets doubled too, it'd be 2x dmg times 2x attack speed times 2x pierce which is 8x better.
I imagine that for some future paragons, money generation/extra money from Bloon pops will be a factor in Paragon Power (heck, the official Buccaneer Paragon is believed to gain power from bottom-path money generation). As for Village, Ice, and Glue, I think it would make the most sense for part of their power to come from additional damage as a result of these towers' influence. For Village, a portion of the power could come from bonus pop cash earned by towers in range of bottom-path villages, and another portion from damage dealt by other towers in the radius of any village that gives an attack speed boost (bonus power from damage dealt by Call to Arms/Homeland Defense-buffed towers). For Ice and Glue (and maybe Sniper, even considering that it does better damage on its own than the former two), part of their power could come from damage received by Bloons inflicted with their damage-increasing statuses. For example, every attack landed on a MOAB-class Bloon under the Super Brittle effect could give the Ice Paragon 4 pops' worth of power (as the effect makes Bloons take +4 damage). Maybe more if leveling would still be too slow with 4...
So you were wondering why the 100 was so much stronger. Well it's a bit unique, the pierce of a paragon is via a very high scale and same for dmg. The t1 has a very low base damage of 4 dmg and 10 pierce, well when you are at degree 100 that dmg increases from 4 to 14 and from 10 to *120* plus you get to increased attack speed of 1.7x so in total you get an insane dps boost of 3,679.7x for just the carpet of spikes effect. Though in comparison the main attack doesn't get as big of a buff, it still gets a notable one because of that pierce. Though I can still calc how much a single super mine *should* have per mine. If it keeps just the highest of each stat and not add the stats together (so we look at 50 base pierce and 40 dmg per spike with 20 extra per mini explosion and 1k after all pierce is consumed) that means a single mine will deal 30,010 damage in total at degree 100 ((50*2+100)*((40*2+10)+(20*2+10))+(1000*2+10) or around 7.5x as much damage as a degree 1 (might I add that this ignores the bonuses for cross pathing so technically that pierce would be even higher at 90 spikes and would likely even be affected by Monkey Knowledge)
I think the damage difference has to do with the raw amount of damage sources. For example, you have basic spikes which go from one damage and x pierce (idk the exact number) to like, 50 damage per spike and x*10 or x*20 which, if x is 10, takes the potential damage from 1 to 500 or 1000. On top of that, the insane damage of super mines plus (potentially) the damage of permaspike (they do get extra damage, right?) Just adds on. Especially if the increase is semi linear, where again we have the basic spike thing where it can increase by a factor of a few hundred from degree 1-100, the mines can have the same idea. Since super mines also have an increased pierce count, they have the same idea plus whatever that big explosion has at the end.
Imo this mod would be kinda cool if it was literal permanent spikes. Where from the moment you place them they just stack indefinitely. That might be hell on pcs though.
It'd probably be fine on PC. It's mobile you have to worry about, as mobile has far less beefy processing than PC. Even the phone/tablet models that are like top end still don't even really hold a candle to a budget gaming PC.
@@end4567 That's not true. Most mobile phones have 1080p definition, same as most budget PC's. I mean if you are using mobile right now and you don't believe it, just go back to any video, and tap on the quality settings. What you might be trying to refer to is the screen size, which is mostly redundant. I mean you might notice fractions of a percent of a difference really because our screens don't get large enough for it to push the hardware that hard, but it works fine still because it experiences what's called graphical stretching, which is basically the machine compensating for the textures being too small for the appropriate screen size. You can easily test this for yourself in less than a couple minutes. Just go into any video game with 3D graphics and get real close to a wall. You'll notice the textures look very stretched and don't look that great. Back away from the wall, and the textures will start to look really good. The main issue is the hardware. PC's have bigger and better graphics cards and dedicated processors for basically everything. Mobile phones are designed to be in your pocket or a bag of some kind. They are limited by the fact that they are supposed to be fully mobile and not hinder your ability to move with them. So the GPU and CPU on mobile phones can't be as good as the ones used in consoles or on PC. I mean in theory mobile can be as good, but technology probably isn't even close to that level yet.
@@end4567 Lol don't worry about it mate. I might ramble on a bit but it's really because I went to school for technology and game development, so this stuff is my bread and butter.
The fact that BADs "protected" by other bloons, like ZOMGs or other BADs right in front of them should be due to the amount of ceramics that essentially get spawned after demolishion, since the carpet of spike spikes are not really good at stopping those, especially since they gain extra damage to MOABs but not ceramics, plus fortifications and health scaling, so a round 200 Reinforced Ceramoc could easily go through 10-15 spike storm spike piles (what a mouthful) and they can also clear one super mine each, so BADs protected by lots of weaker MOAB class bloons are just getting through way better as compared to just big health bloons, as we can see in round 198/199 and 200 !
i have commented on a bunch of videos preaching the power of the spike paragon and what it could be and now we can finally start to comprehend its power
9:02 Thought for a Glue Paragon Introduce a new counter. Make it "Bloons Glued". This will be the "pops" for the Glue Paragon tower. If bloons are popped while under glue effects, then that's also added to the counter (for bloons that have the glue underneath at least)
The reason the first run was so much better was because it was already spikes on the stage when it started. every time you restart, the map is cleard of spikes.
I think it will be interesting to say the least so see an ability only paragon. For example, a tower that doesn’t have an attack like the farm have an ability that gives you some kind of money bonus per pop or something like that
The spike storm does a lot more work than you'd initially expect. With how fast it throws out spikes, they're constantly landing on the moabs and chipping them down all at once
Id like to see a spike paragon that: 1. lays global moab shredder spikes, linger 1 round 2. lays super mines over large area, linger 2 rounds 3. lays perma mines at the exit(s), linger 4 rounds could be 2,3,5 rounds, depends on damage
banana farm would probably change to farmed bananas instead of pops, and I think villages would depend on a combination of pops from its tier 5 top path in addition to the pops by monkeys in the village’s radius, since the middle and bottom paths can’t pop bloons themselves
what they could have done was combine carpet of spikes with perma-spike, with the super-mines within the range of the Spactory(or vice versa, with carpet of spikes x super mines, and perma-spike within its range). This would have been way better as a paragon, essentially making it a "paragon", or at least to the level of one.
Maybe the village score will increase how much damage they did with towers like it +10 towers, a dart monkey does 11 damage and 10 scores are added to the village after the dart monkey attack once. The banana farm can get score the same as the boat bottom path
I imagine Spike Factory Paragon as following: Lays almost permanent Spikes on the whole track every few seconds. Ability: All Spikes become Supermines. Cooldown: 3 Min
If it is going to be a military, I hope mortar is the next paragon, I think it would be really cool. Ace for pick 2, imagine a Flying Fortress shooting like a sky shredder with a nuke. Actually I really don’t know how they would incorporate the Tsar Bomba. I also think glue alch and engi would be interesting paragons.
Maybe it could drop bombs every few seconds, but the bombs would be a little less powerful than the actual tsar bomba (obviously dropping tsar bombas every like 5 seconds would be a bit unbalanced) or it could maybe have a more powerful tsar bomba that drops every like 30 seconds. That’s what I think they could do. They could also make a sky shredder that has neva miss targeting and maybe drops empowered bomber ace bombs. Having this would probably make the ace a much more used tower, so it could definitely make the tower a lot better. For the mortar paragon, it should be able to pop all bloon types, and maybe have some sort of reactor effect that could pop the Bloons even after the explosion is over. It should also just have a ridiculously big explosion that just pops like 25 bloon layers. I don’t know how much damage the biggest one does, but having an extremely strong explosion that could shoot faster (but not too fast) than the normal biggest one. (To incorporate middle path, the speed would also get higher with the paragon degree) Glue paragon should be pretty easy, just make an empowered bloon solver that can slow and do extra damage to Moab class bloons that would also shoot at the speed of a glue hose, and send out occasional storms of glue that would be at the strength of a normal bloon solver only (also glueing Moab’s, also this would happen ever like 30 seconds or so.) It should also be able to glue up to 15 bloons at once (once again scaling with the paragon degree.) The alchemist would be pretty cool, maybe making all bloons gold and turning up to zomgs into reds. It would also permanently buff towers (I’m assuming it would make towers shoot like 70% faster or something, and would give like 20% more pierce and +5 damage, and +5 Moab damage) it could also yeet potions at the bloons, that do like 3 layers every second, that would also splash up to 10 bloons at once. For the ridiculously op buff it gives and the powerful potions, this paragon would be very expensive. Also, for balance reasons, the degree 1 buff would make towers shoot 40% faster and give +2 damage, +3 pierce and no extra Moab damage, which the buff would scale up and get better. Now the engi, (this isn’t my original idea btw) the bloons traps could have sentries inside them, and the traps would open up when the bloons get close and they would get shot and absorbed, and the trap it puts down can suck up zomgs, (instantly breaking) and the turrets would be the sentry champion sentries. The actual sentries would shoot 5% faster than the sentry champion sentries and can pop all bloon types. His range would also be 5% bigger than with the range upgrade. If anybody has extra ideas and/or balance changes and price thoughts, anything would be appreciated.
I'm thinking the reason spike factory got further at degree 100 is due to the global range compared to ninja. So the attack of the spike factory is weaker but it can attack more often.
Imo the banana farm paragon degrees would probably have something to do with bananas produced and village could be like the oops it helped the tower get
I think the reason why this Paragon is so much more powerful than the ninja at degree 100 is because the Ninja has multiple abilities that don't scale based on the degree, whereas the Spike Factory Paragon is pure dps.
Village Paragon Idea: Monkey Utopia - Increases Gold from pops, perma 75% attack speed buff, range bonus for towers and MIB on whole map. Consumes all non tier 5 Primary towers in range (ex monkeypolis range) to incorporate defences. No Primary towers consumed: Shoots 5xx Village x4. For the consumed towers, i'd like to see something like on Sun Temple, but per Primary tower specifically - let's say 20k gold of Dart Monkeys adds a juggernaut cannons to the Utopia. Etc.
On the Paragon scale, id give it about an 85. Perma spike barely seems added in, and even then, the factory is so fast that it caps out and deletes old spikes by itself. Maybe a larger pile of spike might help?
"I don't know why the first run was the best" - re r140 fBAD - Permaspike! 138 & 139 were speedy rounds so you couldn't build a spike pile, but you had a few left over when you went into r140. Retrying the round, all of them are gone, so you do worse!
