The Struggle To Bring Xmonad To Wayland

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Xmonad is one of those window managers that's kind of trapped on X11 but there is a recent effort to port it from xorg over to being a Wayland compositor but they need your help
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15 сен 2024

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Комментарии : 161

@pw1187 11 месяцев назад

DT and 10's of people might be in trouble

@CowCatwithafancyHat 11 месяцев назад

🤣

@fishsayhelo9872 11 месяцев назад

there are dozens of us, dozens!

@coolkitty1654 11 месяцев назад

oh, the humanity

@glidersuzuki5572 11 месяцев назад

Like the 20's of people using linux

@pw1187 11 месяцев назад

@@glidersuzuki5572 for the most part at the 30000 foot level as far as, desktop os its more like 5's of people ...

@liskni_si 11 месяцев назад

Hey! Tom from xmonad team here. Thanks for the comments and ideas, and most of all thanks for the publicity!

@conan_kudo 11 месяцев назад

Both Mir and Weston's architectures are such that the actual renderer (compositor) and window management (shell) are separate aspects. It's not common because most Wayland environments are wlroots-based and typically fuse the two into a single process. Technically, even Mir and Weston can work this way too. Both Weston and Mir have library interfaces (libweston and miral, respectively) to build compositors and shells. KDE Plasma also has this separation with kwin (the compositor) and plasmashell/plasma-workspace (the shell).

@BrodieRobertson 11 месяцев назад

I guess people could build off Mir or Weston, I know Weston lacks a lot of protocol support but what about Mir

@notuxnobux 11 месяцев назад

Detective Conan on the case

@speedytruck 11 месяцев назад

1:58 It depends on how you define "ready." If it's getting it out there so actual progress can be done, then it was actually about time. Wayland wouldn't have been what it is today if not for distros like Fedora to adopt and push it forward.

@uncomfyhalomacro6183 11 месяцев назад

wayland wont be pushed forward if there were no users to use it therefore no bug reports to improve it

@hebedite4865 11 месяцев назад

After your video on the x-org security bugs and honestly your wayland coverage in general, i finally took the time to configure my kmsmode setting and now have hyprland running absolutely flawlessly on my nvidia 2060. In fact, it runs WAY better than x11 with picom. I just hope a true successor to awesomeWM comes around for wayland because it's my favorite by far. I'm officially a wayland convert now lol

@swastikacharyya 11 месяцев назад

You can try river, it has an extension for awesome's layout

@armynyus9123 11 месяцев назад

> WAY better than x11 In terms of ... what?

@trashman8080 11 месяцев назад

@@armynyus9123smoothness? I use a 2060 too and somehow its smoother on wayland than in X now. Even when nvidia wayland support was crap before. And with kde i can enable tearing for games now.

@F1nnyF6 11 месяцев назад

@armynyus9123 in terms of... eveything? And most importantly in terms of X is no longer being developed and is inevitably going to die. Wayland IS the future

@glidersuzuki5572 11 месяцев назад

@@F1nnyF6with nvidia? Does screen sharing and recording work? Remote desktop access?

@xvxvxvxv7704 11 месяцев назад

Fun fact, Xmonad is not really a special name, it would be like calling a red car "AredCar". In Haskell all IO operations are wraped in a monad as a hack to circumvent the language's requirement to know all the data at compile time, IO ops can fail, so IO monad exists. Talking with X is an IO op too, so X monad exists. So yeah, the name seems to refer to X bindings rather that the wm written on top of them.

@Beryesa. 11 месяцев назад

Looks like the waymonad project did the haskell wlr bindings themselves. I wonder if they'll end up hiring them so they can take time as possibly the most experienced dev around.

@mskiptr 11 месяцев назад

15:15 That's not really how Haskell works. Since it's nothing like your typical mainstream languages, creating bindings to external code requires you to come up with much more then just "safe abstractions". Even with Rust, to use external code you either need to re-invent the API or use unsafe all the time (bad idea). Here, not only you need to express what the code you're interacting with does, but also model it in some clean and elegant way using just data structures and (math-style) functions. (Ugh, it's so hard to explain without writing an entire introduction to purely functional programming. If you want to learn more about it tho, I recommend first looking into Elm. It's incredibly easy and quick to learn and the official guide is excellent. After that you can either look into Haskell or other inspired languages like PureScript or Idris.)

@Euphorya 11 месяцев назад

I love Haskell. However, one problem with Haskell is it's very hard to use other projects for inspiration. Porting C or Python, or even Rust into C++ (like hyprland) is pretty straight forward, but the strict functional purity of Haskell often requires developers to think up completely different ways to accomplish stuff.

@keit99 11 месяцев назад

Haskell is just backwards programming anyway. And I know to stay away from it.

@NoOne-ef7yu 11 месяцев назад

The functional purity is it's beauty, but also it's curse. Still, Haskell was the most fun I had learning a langauge after leaening to program for the very first time. A strange langage, born of a more sophisticated, mathematical world...

@mskiptr 11 месяцев назад

@@NoOne-ef7yu If you want another challenge, try something built around dependent types. Figuring out why they allow you to prove theorems is a quite magical experience

@NoOne-ef7yu 11 месяцев назад

@@mskiptr Haskell makes dependent types pretty painful though, I'd rather recommend Idris to learn. I always find it easier to learn the concept in it's cleanest implementation.

@NoOne-ef7yu 11 месяцев назад

@@mskiptr Also, free theorems are awesome.

@RogueRen 11 месяцев назад

Speaking of Nvidia on wayland, there's a new beta driver the supposedly fixes a bunch of wayland issue that I'm exited to get pushed to Fedora so I can try it out.

@BrodieRobertson 11 месяцев назад

That's exciting

@mskiptr 11 месяцев назад

Do you mean NVK | new Nouveau or the open kernel module Nvidia announced like a year ago?

@RogueRen 11 месяцев назад

@@mskiptr neither, the next proprietary driver from Nvidia has a beta

@jasamkrava 11 месяцев назад

15:13 rip kdenlive

@greatgamegal 11 месяцев назад

@4:33 I know in River's *Software You Can Love* talk they talked about experimenting with decoupling the window manager and compositor, though still providing a default window manager, I don't know if there's been work to do so yet or if there are still plans to.

@bestinfinity1 11 месяцев назад

I switched to wayland bcs of you and so far i've had a far smoother expirience

@szaszm_ 11 месяцев назад

Someone should write a compatibility compositor that interprets X11 window manager calls, and translates them to the appropriate Wayland-specific API calls. It would be nice to be able to just drop in an X11 window manager, and have a Wayland compositor run it and get the same behavior. But it's probably too complex to be viable.

@joshua_lee732 11 месяцев назад

Mir in other words?

@tablettablete186 11 месяцев назад

Isn't it Xwayland?

@keit99 11 месяцев назад

@@tablettablete186no Xwayland is an XServer running on top of wayland. It can't translate X-window magaer calls into native wayland

@kreuner11 11 месяцев назад

@@tablettablete186XWayland cant run entire window managers

@kreuner11 11 месяцев назад

@@joshua_lee732not sure how that is what they're looking for

@alex146 11 месяцев назад

I will switch to Wayland as soon as the Xmonad is ported to Wayland

@tranthien3932 11 месяцев назад

Props for not laughing in the intro and saying "Xmonad". Respects.

@foji-video 11 месяцев назад

given qtile is strongly inspired by xmonad (when it comes to the X part), I wonder if the wayland inspiration could go the opposite direction

@vaisakhkm783 11 месяцев назад

ikr... i am impressed by qtile..

@helloimatapir 11 месяцев назад

Xmonad developers realize they need to adapt or will be left behind with a dead project and no users. This goes for all the big window manager projects who are still stuck on X11.

@Psoewish 11 месяцев назад

I remember the River dev mentioning during a conference talk that he’s interested in exploring splitting the compositor off from the window manager, but that would be a project for after River is in a good enough spot to split focus like that. I don’t remember where he said this exactly but he also hasn’t done that many talks (that are on RU-vid), so shouldn’t be too hard to find.

@guyblack9729 11 месяцев назад

HASKELL MENTIONED LETS FUCKING GOOOOOOOOO

@AM-yk5yd 11 месяцев назад

Speaking of rising up. Speaking of wayfire. New version of wayfire was released. And you haven't covered it! It took 3 years to go from 0.7.0 to 0.8.0. I'm waiting for vacation to try out the cube. Also yeah, I agree that finding developer will be a challange. Low-level wayland is a niche. Haskell is a niche. Xmonad needs development is an intersection of niche in a niche.

@Mr.Finkel 11 месяцев назад

wayfire has seen a lot of development over the last 6 months and really works great now. id recommend it to anyone that likes stacking WMs over tiling.

@DavidConnerCodeaholic 11 месяцев назад

Yeh seriously, I really wish this would work, but several attempts have been tried. Anything that doesn’t use Haskell is /not/ a spiritual successor to XMonad IMO. Maybe this isn’t a great idea, maybe the challenges I suggest aren’t actual issues. I’ve wondered if it would be possible to have a Haskell-hybrid compositor build on top of another compositor with FFI (or at least built to use another language for the primatives). So like, specifically, build RiverWM via FFI to implement high-level functionality in Haskell. The zig handles low-level stuff in a way that makes it easy to push FFI data strux back & forth, then Haskell doesn’t have to manage all the memory state (used for graphics/IO). Challenges include: persisting typical Wayland compositor state while surviving restarts, FFI marshalling/unmarshalling and making Haskell thing that no states/types are unexpected (error/io handling) In xmonad, I think, Haskell is mostly telling the Xserver how to function.

@DavidConnerCodeaholic 11 месяцев назад

I think any design needs to completely rethink how to write a WM for a Haskell. One temptation is going to be “compatible with all the XMonad things” but greenfield would be wayyy better IMO.

@gthar 11 месяцев назад

I'm a long time XMonad user who keeps going back and forth between XMonad and River. My River + Kile config is mostly fine and if I run it long enough I sort of forget about XMonad. But then, from time to time, I try XMonad again and remember how much I love it. It's mostly the little things and functionality from xmonad-contrib that make it such a joy to use. I assume a lot of xmonad-contrib would also need to be ported to wayland, which means replicating my comfy setup under Wayland is even further in time (if it ever happens).

@ZoDoneRightNow 7 месяцев назад

I am not married to xmonad but I don’t think it would be super easy for me to want to switch until wayland has a window manager that uses a functional language config as I just love how easy things like emacs and xmonad are to configure. I have been considering trying hyprland but it is just a bit hard to get back into the mindset of exploring more desktop environments.

@vaxryy 11 месяцев назад

Hyprland is better than Xmonad in every way anyways. I've also heard the dev is an amazing guy! Also, why not make waymonad a plugin to hyprland? :)

@ttaylor-st 11 месяцев назад

you *are* a pretty cool guy

@penguin86bitals 11 месяцев назад

I've heard that the dev forcefully puts anime girls on your desktop. So right, it is better.

@BrodieRobertson 11 месяцев назад

Some people do actually think it's forced, there is a toggle for it

@penguin86bitals 11 месяцев назад

@@BrodieRobertson I was referencing a legendary issue, I am a filthy Gnome user myself though.

@stefun666 11 месяцев назад

I am xmonad user since ~4 yrs. now. I have tried every window manager from dwm, qtile, herbstluft, leftwm and I keep coming back to xmonad, because it give's me the least amount of issues, It's the fastest in daly operation, and whatever I need, I can build it myself into the haskell configuration. not sure how long I am going to stay on X11 tho. I haven't tried any of the wayland compositors yet, but spinning up a trial vm is in the plans.

@grants7390 11 месяцев назад

i really hope X never leaves. my current is 100% reliant on X. i have 4 1080p projectors in a 2x2 grid and a virtual display they are inside of so that they can be used as 1 really good 4k projector.

@tostadorafuriosa69 11 месяцев назад

Hope for the day the Mate DE gets wayland support.

@cameronbosch1213 11 месяцев назад

What can MATE do that Xfce can't?

@obake6290 11 месяцев назад

@@cameronbosch1213 It's not about what it can or can't do compared to Xfce. I just like using MATE better. Why is that? I don't know, it just is. That said, I don't use either at the moment.

@GSBarlev 11 месяцев назад

I'm in the same boat with Pantheon. It looks like you *can* run gala in --wayland mode now, but I really don't know enough to want to be that close to the bleeding edge.

@GemmstoneA 11 месяцев назад

Are you all really going to ignore that marker board?

@siljrath 11 месяцев назад

xmonad user here, since 2008. (among other wm). wondering if tricks like wmrotate (having a xinit/login("display")manager launch a bash script with a while loop listing window managers which will cycle through to next in list when current window manager is killed (or crashes), keeping all gui programs running) will be possible in wayland, given the whole compositor is like graphics server and wm implementations are tied to the compositor (if you excuse my inaccurate janky phrasing, naive to wayland's ways).

@CyberDruga 11 месяцев назад

ffs, that whiteboard 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

@estevaomendes2305 11 месяцев назад

Vivarium claims to have some semantics similar to Xmonad, but for some reason my touchpad doesn't work properly with it ( edge scrolling and tap click don't work even after a proper configuration). If you want a decent Wayland experience go for hyprland or, if you have patience, dwl with the proper patches.

@random_guy_on_the_internet69 11 месяцев назад

Could you do one on aweosomeWM? From what I've seen though, awesome is never going to be on wayland. One of the reasons for that probably being that awesome seems to be slowly dying as a project. Love your Content!

@gronki1 11 месяцев назад

1:58 kind of disagree. I used Wayland on Fedora since 25 on and off, and the main reason keeping me away from it was inability for screen sharing -- which was only fixed very recenty. As long as I did not need to screen share, everything worked flawlessly? I am not sure where all the complaints come from

@deviantsemicolon618 10 месяцев назад

I dont use awesomewm nor do I plan to(I'm happy with Hyprland) but the idea of a wayland version of awesomewm, like awesomewl or whatever, has so much potential. Idk if a lua-powered compositor as extensible as awesomewm exists rn.

@volodymyrkilchenko 11 месяцев назад

yes we need this Wmonad

@cheako91155 11 месяцев назад

Mark me down as having experience with this kind of development, but busy with my own projects.

@Emancipatriot 11 месяцев назад

Never used this one. Hyprland has gotten better recently though. Love it. Wayfire has a lot of potential

@Mr.Finkel 11 месяцев назад

wayfire has seen a lot of development over the last 6 months and really works great now. id recommend it to anyone that likes stacking WMs over tiling.

@Emancipatriot 11 месяцев назад

@@Mr.Finkel agreed! I use it on my secondary drive.

@iFlxy 11 месяцев назад

I thought you were talking a video comparing BSD to Linux. Didn't expect some more Wayland propaganda, I'm pleasantly surprised.

@denizkendirci 11 месяцев назад

i need a proper wayland replacement for ratpoison. cagebreak is good but it's very limited (developer stated that he develops for his own usage, so it lacks feautures on purpose. ability to set a wallpaper, for example)

@anon_y_mousse 11 месяцев назад

Since it wouldn't make sense to keep calling it Xmonad, I'm hoping they change the name to Wonad. Why drop the 'm'? Because it's easier to rhyme with gonad.

@quarkquark1 11 месяцев назад

A monad is a specific kind of mathematical object that is used by Haskell for various things including managing input/output. XMonad is just a monad for managing X. Also, while Linux people tend to rhyme XMonad with, as you've suggested, ‘gonad’, mathematicians tend to rhyme the first syllable of monad with ‘gone’.

@bennyjensen1 11 месяцев назад

X mmmmMMmmm daddy uh *caugh* sorry about that. anyway thanks to your videos on wayland i am seriously considering trying it out once KDE 6 is released (and perhaps had a few weeks to iron out bugs)

@jaakkohintsala2597 11 месяцев назад

I have arch on my laptop with xmonad thanks to distrotube and I would love to migrate to wayland with it.

@CielMC 11 месяцев назад

Is it just me or are there some weird audio issues around 15:18?

@unusedengine 11 месяцев назад

im just waiting for herbstluftwm to move to wayland because im planning to switch to an amd cpu

@bluesillybeard 11 месяцев назад

The only thing keeping me from Wayland is Gnome's night light feature. Once that is fixed, I am 100% switching lol

@MuskW-e9x 11 месяцев назад

Today I got VR working on wayland, so I can consider both work and play fully migrated to the wayboi.

@herkulessi 11 месяцев назад

I am gonna miss herbstluftwm

@anon_y_mousse 11 месяцев назад

You and Jake both. What does it do differently?

@GSBarlev 11 месяцев назад

They squandered a great opportunity to call the Wayland version peuoW

@ios7jbpro 11 месяцев назад

15:20 theres a loop lol i think your video editor was high

@somemediocregamer 11 месяцев назад

Waymonad... I can see it now.

@erikreider 11 месяцев назад

I'd recommend that they use wlroots scene graph or even scenefx 😏

@cameronbosch1213 11 месяцев назад

Hey Brodie, EndeavourOS (my distro of choice since around 2021) is moving to KDE Plasma with the next update. Didn't you literally say you might move to Plasma or something like that with Plasma 6? This is one thing I WANT to get experience with and help with, but I don't have it yet... 😢

@keit99 11 месяцев назад

Plasma is actually quite simple. When you aren't trying to configure it into oblivion...

@MuskW-e9x 11 месяцев назад

Hyprland got about a 20% cpu penalty over sway tho

@BrodieRobertson 11 месяцев назад

What CPU do you you use?

@MuskW-e9x 11 месяцев назад

7800x3D@@BrodieRobertson

@AndersHass 11 месяцев назад

Maybe gamescope is meant in regards to gaming on wayland

@ico277 11 месяцев назад

meow

@herkulessi 11 месяцев назад

brrmeow

@mskiptr 11 месяцев назад

meow miau miao nya mu What about other languages?

@MichaelWilliams-lr4mb 11 месяцев назад

Labwc is pretty much the Wayland equivalent to Openbox.

@thomaspiechulek535 5 месяцев назад

Thats so sad... i swapped back to xmonad because its the fastes wm i ever had...

@256shadesofgrey 11 месяцев назад

I tried using wayland again recently because of your convincing propaganda, but I need to be able to disable the compositor, because it kills the performance in some games, and as I discovered, that is not possible in a wayland session. So I'm back on X until there is either no impact on the performance of games from having the compositor on, or there is a way to disable it.

@keit99 11 месяцев назад

Which wayland compositor did you use? I though wlroots and Plasma Support compositing redirection

@256shadesofgrey 11 месяцев назад

@@keit99 KWin, since I'm using KDE.

@kreuner11 11 месяцев назад

Wmonad

@donoteatmikezila 11 месяцев назад

Just change your channel icon to the wayland logo fam

@CocolinoFan 11 месяцев назад

Yes, dwm for Wayland please. I know Suckless devs don't want

@risetnsetnri 8 месяцев назад

There’s dwl which is that.

@CocolinoFan 8 месяцев назад

@@risetnsetnri Not by Suckless. I want the Suckless devs to bless the software.

@gizzmoguy. 11 месяцев назад

Try Xmonad and give us your thoughts.

@0x7f2c 11 месяцев назад

dwm and openbox have wayland counterparts...

@keit99 11 месяцев назад

Openbox does? What's it called

@TetrisMaster512 11 месяцев назад

@@keit99 I think they're referring to labwc

@BrodieRobertson 11 месяцев назад

No they don't, they have compositors inspired by them. Sway is 1:1 compatible with i3 configs

@waltherstolzing9719 11 месяцев назад

@@BrodieRobertson I don't think labwc's rc.xml is a drop-in replacement for openbox's rc.xmls -- though the semantics of the options are pretty much identical, and the xml syntax is different only in that labwc allows for putting in properties as sub elements -- I don't recall openbox allowing that.

@keit99 11 месяцев назад

@@waltherstolzing9719 I checked labwc. It uses the same Syntax and General structure from openbox, but is Not completely 1:1

@jamesflames6987 11 месяцев назад

What kind of a psychopath uses Haskell?

@redo1122 11 месяцев назад

I ate a cat

@raulguy 11 месяцев назад

Thats pretty cruel but ok

@terminallyonline5296 11 месяцев назад

@@raulguy I will eat another

@Yaya0001 11 месяцев назад

@@terminallyonline5296 mmmm cats yummy

@pw1187 11 месяцев назад

Hopefully with some orange sauce and some fava beans.

@the-random1 11 месяцев назад

That’s cool

@TrowGundam 11 месяцев назад

Oh lord.... triggering my PTSD. I tried Xmonad (I blame DT, :D ) once. As part of it, I read a book on Haskell.... I'm a programmer (like professional, been doing programming for 20+ years), and it hurt my brain. Haskell is just a mindf***. I think I'll just stick to Hyprland though. I've forgotten most of what I learned of Haskell. (I've figured out my issue with FFXIV, it was actually Esync, it seems Esync and Fsync are causing issues in FFXIV currently).

@keit99 11 месяцев назад

I had a haskell course in Uni. My Prof being one of the people who worked on ghc at one point in time. And Yeah it's just not fit for the way I think. Funnily a friend of mine who struggles more with Traditional languages lovds it 😂

@anon_y_mousse 11 месяцев назад

Yeah, it's more appropriate for people that think upside down. I can understand a fair bit of functional programming, and have used various Lisp's throughout the years, but Haskell just makes me want to barf.

@sergeykish 11 месяцев назад

I have not red book but I've tried Xmonad, checked and patched some code, it's beautiful.

@Poldovico 11 месяцев назад

It might be the one esoteric language that isn't trying to be esoteric

@billeterk 11 месяцев назад

@@anon_y_mousseour programming 101 was using Miranda. It was quite enjoyable but felt a little bit of a toy.

@fox2code 11 месяцев назад

wlroot is the worst library to use, it just crashes, at least gnome mutter show something on wayland when used. I just tried to run compositors, weston, kde and gnome work ok on nvidia, but as soon as wlroot is involved, nothing work at all.

@keit99 10 месяцев назад

That's nvidia's fault Not wlroots. Wayland and nvidia just Do Not like each other

@fox2code 10 месяцев назад

@@keit99 Well, there is having issues, and not doing the bare minimum, wlroot is the only implementation that fully crash on Nvidia, other implementations may have issues, but at least they goes to the desktop.

@keit99 10 месяцев назад

@@fox2code also on gtx 9xx upwards the nvidia driver uses GB M and works with any wayland compositor.