Combinig Jacob's lessons, Fux's book and Schachter's book of counterpoint is for me the best way to learn counterpoint, and your videos has been the best to explain such a difficult topic so far. thanks!
Not sure if I ever want to look over my manuscripts again... lol... Thank you Dr. Gran for your knowledge & experience; your video lessons are wonderfully focused & calming. Looking forward to always learning more...
I love this book and have studied from it on my own (years after I was a music major). I did a lot of research and discovered that the book Guide to the Practical Study of Harmony was not written by Tchaikovsky. That book is actually lecture notes one of Tchaikovsky's students took during his lectures. Either way, it still ends up being Tchaikovsky but I found it interesting when I learned that.
VERY interesting. I recently worked through Tchaikovsky's textbook as well as Rimsky-Korsakov's as context for looking at some of Prokofiev's short piano works. These I have/am making/made YT videos on what I have noticed.
This video is so helpful. I started these exercise in his book and your explanation as speed limits makes so much sense. Each succeeding exercise builds using similarities in shapes from the previous exercises.
Thank for these videos Dr.Gran. For a hobbyist learning harmony and counterpoint, your videos provide a clear and nuanced perspective. They also give plenty examples and references to all sorts of resources that i wouldn't be aware of otherwise. Also you have pleasant voice to listen to, rather soothing.
Great video Jacob! So nice to see this kind of material in RU-vid. I'm interested, can you do a video talking about the counterpoint of Richard's Strauss last tone poems works and his countermelodies? Would be amazing! Thanks!
I noticed that both in your examples and in those of other composers there was sometimes an interval greater than a tenth between the soprano and the alto. I was personally taught to not allow more than an octave between any two adjacent upper voices (though a tenth seems fine to me). Is this something you've heard? Does Palestrina allow for gaps that large?
Hi Jacob! Is there anywhere I can get more detail on how to compose the 4 notes and 3 notes speed limit exercises?? (In the same way you have done with the 2 note speed limit exercise). I am not sure what sort of dissonances have been introduced in the four note exercises ? It seems as though there is an auxiliary (upper neighbour) note in bar 8? Are the dissonances used those that correspond to the species exercises of the same number? Eg- for '3 note speed limit' exercises, your dissonances will be the same as those allowed in third species exercises? I take it, no matter what the exercise, if two notes are struck at once they must be consonant with each other? thanks! Ed
The best source is Tchaikovsky's book, the Dover edition of which is pretty cheap and can also be found for free on IMSLP. In general, the dissonances must be correctly treated according to the rules of their species, and the species is determined by the relative rate of motion between two voices. For instance, simultaneous quarter notes can both move as passing or neighboring dissonances with respect to the CF, but because they move at the same rate as one another, they must form consonances with each other as if it was first species. This doesn't really hold for fourth species suspensions, though, where you would need to consult the video on suspension chords to see how the free voice moves during a suspension resolution.
Hi Jacob! Thanks again for another great video! Very curious as to how you define 'passing chords'. I was always taught that if you have two or more simultaneous passing notes then this qualifies as a passing chord. I have seen on other videos that you define chords sounding in tandem with only one passing note as passing chords, which I find confusing, as this will mean that passing notes will always turn the chords they sound with into passing 'chords'! In your example in this video, (6 4 moving to 5 2 suspension chord), your chord only has one passing note but then a note (A) which totally changes the harmony to F64. Can we therefore use single passing notes as a license to use chords built around them as passing chords (I think you mention this on your video on passing/ aux chords, but I'm still unclear)? If you did NOT move to A, and simply stayed on G, would this be defined as a passing chord, or simply a CM chord sounding with a passing note? Thanks yet again1 Ed
Hi Ed, great question. I think the video on passing chords that I made for this playlist got blocked in most countries because of some musical clips that I used. Still visible in North Korea, apparently. In a nutshell though, I would use the term for any chord that has a figured bass symbol that includes a dissonance that is explained by passing motion. So a 6/4 chord for instance, may have a passing function if the fourth is treated as a passing tone, but the fourth could also arise through auxiliary motion or suspension. That isn't original to me either; CPE Bach refers to passing 7th chords in his treatise, as distinct from other situations in which a 7th could arise.
@@JacobGranHi Jacob! Great answer! Upon considering this answer, and the same exercise again I have two further questions if you will indulge me! 1.Regarding the passing 7th chords, you cite one in bar 12. However, the dissonant 7th here is not a passing note. Is this one of the 'suspension' chords you mentioned in your answer? 2. How would you describe the ‘suspension’ in bar 5? All of the suspended notes are consonant with each other. is the first half of the bar GM harmony with 3 simultaneous suspensions, or merely a continuation of CM harmony? I suppose the suspensions do not actually technically have to resolve by step, as they are all consonant? I have found this confusing, as I think of a suspension as a dissonance which therefore needs to resolve by step. As there is no dissonance here, what is it that makes this a suspension, as opposed to merely another CM chord??? thanks! and sorry for all the questions! I'm really trying with this! Ed
Hi Ed, 1) The bass note G is the passing tone in measure 12. The note F in the alto voice above it is the "chordal seventh" that we are trained to identify in harmony textbooks, but that is not necessarily the active dissonant note from the perspective of linear analysis. 2) The C chord on the downbeat of measure 5 is just a consonant triad. Consonant suspensions are free to move in fourth species, unlike dissonances which must resolve down by step. We also only need to justify the dissonant chord figures, so the consonant 5/3 and 6/3 triads don't require an explanation.
You didn't mention why there is no third in the final chord. I like the sound but want to understand why you chose it. Just smooth voice leading perhaps?
Good question. The tenor could have easily leapt down to E to supply the chordal third in the final measure. I'm not sure why exactly I preferred G there. Maybe I imagined the low major third at the bottom of the harmony producing a kind of muddy voicing, but that's not a serious problem. If the Alto was not committed to the note C by the Cantus firmus, then placing the third in that voice, higher in the texture, would be ideal.
Honestly I’ve made all of these videos just using PowerPoint and Audacity. Nothing fancy, and there are a number of tutorial videos on RU-vid on how to make a video using PowerPoint.
@@JacobGran that's a great news, I use Finale as well. I'm a church organist and for some time I wanted to make some videos on hymn harmonizing. Not using functional harmony but thorough bass. I have seem some videos on that subject but to my taste they have a faulty approach and produce poor results. I hope I can make a contribution to this world. I have access to a great virtual organs so the recordings should be ear pleasing....
Dear Sir I would gladly pay for the following A collection of examples from the luminaries ( Palestrina to Chopin Tchaikovsky Verdi etc ) Where we could hear and see actual examples of Eg first species in 2 - 3 - 4 voice Second species ditto These wouldn’t have to be perfectly strict It would be heavenly to merge my intellect ( mind says “this is Bach In 3 voice 3rd species ) And the soul Listening repeatedly with the intellectual awareness of this kind I don’t know if I’ve explained it properly Also I don’t think composers usually would follow strict counterpoint. In actual composition Still I suspect a highly educated music teacher can summon examples for the thirsty student I recall my counterpoint teacher blowing mind in this way I would spend perhaps an hour on a counterpoint of a given cantus And in a minute or two he would improve my offering Imagine what hearing the Masters and their examples would be like ! I would pay handsomely for this
When writing a 4 voice counterpoint exercise like this, as compared to a typical SATB setting, are you not as concerned about issues such as doubling (leading tone in measure 5) and harmonic retrogressions (V - ii from measure 5-6)? I recognize that the rigidity of the cantus forces you a bit, but I would still think harmonic progression would be a consideration in the style. Maybe I'm asking the same question Divergent Integral already asked. Happened upon a beat up copy of the Kennan, which I remember using in grad school in a very poorly taught counterpoint class. Maybe I'll actually get good at doing more than just simple 2 voice settings after all.
Excellent point. I think it comes down to a matter of pedagogical bent. I agree with Schenker that the best way to understand the relationship between harmony and voice leading is to understand each separately before later combining them. So we can put on blinders with respect to harmonic progression in a counterpoint exercise for the same reason that we can suppress the use of motivic repetition and call-and-response phrasing; those aspects of music have a fundamentally different compositional logic. The way I've tried to explain it before is by analogy: a physicist might ignore friction or heat or other complicating factors in a thought experiment in order to isolate a particular concept for the student. An engineer, on the other hand, would embrace the complexity in order to model the issue at hand as realistically as possible. The "physicist" camp of contrapuntists would favor the very abstract, non-repertoire specific species approach and would include theorists like Fux, Cherubini, and Schenker, and the "engineer" camp would prefer to teach counterpoint by inferring principles from real repertoire and would include authors like Padre Martini, Walter Piston, and (to a lesser extent) Kennon. As for the doubled leading tone in measure 5, I thought at the time that it was the best way to approach the fifth in measure 6 without parallel motion. I justified it in my head as Ok because neither of the chordal thirds actually behave as a leading tone thanks to that "retrogressive" progression to D minor. Perhaps if I had been stubborner it would have occurred to me that I could have leapt to the chordal fifth D in the alto voice on the weak beat of measure 5 and simply tied the D to a whole note through measure 6. Its still not a great tune, but it might improve the sonority.
i noticed that between measures 7 and 8 of the “2 notes per measure” example, there is contrary motion between perfect intervals in the bass and tenor voice. i believe it’s a fifth, to an octave, to a fifth. considering these are both in “first species”, and are each technically being approached by contrary motion, would this be okay in typical first species? i.e. a 5th moving in contrary motion to an octave. and even if it is wouldn’t it be bad voice leading since they’re such stable intervals consecutively? why is tchaik okay with it here?
Thanks for the question. If this were a two voice first species exercise, then I agree the consecutive perfect consonances would be weak because of their "hollow" sound (although there is nothing wrong with the contrary motion between the first fifth and octave, and the motion to the second fifth is oblique). But this is not a two-voice exercise, and the rich four-voice chords do not suffer from a "poverty of harmony," as I believe Fux put it. The midi keyboard realization probably makes the octave stand out more prominently because the tenor and bass are the only voices that move, but this would sound better with sustaining instruments or voices, or if the upper voices rearticulated their notes on the upbeat of measure 7.
@@JacobGran i see. it stuck out to me and i didn’t take into account what it would sound like with an organ or voices playing the parts. i kinda thought it might be technically okay since they are technically approached correctly, but it still sounds rather weak and i don’t think i’d ever use it practically in a 2 or 3 voice texture. thank you for the response.
I think there are some downsides to this completion,and I would like to say. The 2 bar sound hollow because the 1st meter only has octave and fifth but no third,so if the B tone isn't delay resolution will be better. The 5 7 11bars there are repeats third tones. In the end,the 15bar have no third tone,,it makes hearing sense hope a inner voice-type will show up a third tone,but it didn't,so it sounds unsatisfactory. And 6bar-7bar there is a D6(V6) to SⅡ,I think that was a big mistake..
That's a fair point. I agree that a twelfth between upper parts is quite extreme, and would be difficult to balance in performance. Considerations about performability must have been in the back of my mind while composing this counterpoint exercise. And, to the extent that I thought about it at all, I guess I must have rationalized the tension in this radical SATB spacing as a kind of "special effect" at the melodic highpoint, rather than as a part-writing error. You can tell I'm a keyboard player!
@@JacobGran I should say my counterpoint in college only went through the species in two voice, twice (the second time was supposed to be a brief review before "Baroque Counterpoint" but taught by a TA and we fell way behind and never got out of it and into the Baroque at all), and I'd like to think I've been learning a lot from your channel.
Does anyone have a suggestion for videos on this same topic at a lower level? I found this fascinating but I feel like I didn't understand half of what he was saying!
Unfortunately I can only point you to my other videos at the beginning of this playlist (beginning with How to Compose 1:1 Counterpoint. The playlist is called Tonal Voice Leading). I tried to build up from the simplest forms of counterpoint towards the more complicated one step at a time, but I assumed that the viewers already know a certain amount of music notation and theory. There are also great counterpoint videos by Alan Belkin, BachtotheBasics, and others on RU-vid.
