Work begins in earnest on the 62 and an explanation of why we are not longer operating for the public. J&L Narrow Gauge Railroad, Youngstown, OH www.youngstownsteel.org
To everyone saying that we should hire a lawyer. No, that would be a wrong move. We would have made about $8,000 this year from museum admissions with the rail operations. We would quickly exhaust that and much more in attorneys fees and more than likely would still not prevail. We have changed our operational structure and plan to move forward not offering train rides to the public as part of the museum visit. We now have more time for the Steam Locomotive Experiences and member events.
Sorry to hear you gotta deal with this "amusement" business [you'd think these old fuddy-duddies would get the good that heritage railroads are doing/trying], but I think you should be able to make your case & win it given the education [plus we need more "blue-collar" expertise in this country] and these engines were built for industrial work. Hope to see these engines running again soon, and Keep Up The Good Work!
Here's a workaround - tell the Dept. of Ag. to contact H.K. Porter. If they can do that and get a hold of the "Owner's manuals", they're welcome to regulate you any way they want. As a former volunteer at the Pine Creek RR Museum in Farmingdale, NJ, They classified us under the NJDoT because we run 36 inch gauge on a loop of track in a state park. The FRA thinks would be wasting their time regulating us, despite us following FRA regulatory procedures as our SOP in case one day they change their minds...
Everyone that buys a ticket becomes a member donation for one day. If members are required to participate with helping the museum then put a bucket of spikes at the ticket office and another empty bucket 20 feet way and drop the spike in the empty bucket and your volunteer work is done, go ride the train and look at the equipment.
What got the Dept of Ag amusement ride section attention is your track gauge. They are now following the guidelines from the ASTM amusement ride sections. In it they classify any train ride under their jurisdiction to be anything that operates on a gauge of 10"-12" (what ever the old Miniature Train Company electric trains ran on) up to and including 24" gauge (aka Chance C.P. Huntingtons). Now the Kings Island and Cedar Point railroads being 36" gauge are therefore out of their jurisdiction. They are inspected by the state dept of industrial safety. I am afraid that it's going to be a tough row to hoe. I would get in touch with your local state representative about this😊
You don’t want FRA either. You would be up to your neck in regulations governing everything associated with both locomotives and passenger equipment, including brakes and safety appliances like grab irons and hand brakes. You are under FRA IF and only IF you accept freight or passengers from connecting railroads and thereby participate in interstate commerce. I have BTDT with a tourist railroad that had a small freight business (400 carloads per year). It brings on a world of regulation. Your locomotives would have to have prints generated by a professional engineer including measuring steel thickness in the boiler, firebox, etc. and type of steel as documented by sending samples to a lab. That’s why it is so much easier to put a main line engine back in service. The FRA will accept the engine as grandfathered if it was once under FRA inspection.
those locos were built as industrial equipment to do a job not for amusement since they left industrial use they are now educational and heritage equipment no way they will or should be classed as amusement ride honestly i think you'll have a good case and if they still say that its a amusement rides honestly they are idiots for thinking these machines are amusement rides. Either way keep up the good work
Agreed! And the point was well defined when the operation was "Youngstown Steel Heritage" While "J&L Narrow Gauge Railroad" better defines it, the name also makes it seem a novelty rather than historic preservation.
Sorry to hear that you are having to jump through this hoop. Our local narrow gauge has had to do this, it cost them time and money. Good luck! TM narrow gauge fan
Great progress in such a short time - great to see the good state of the cylinders and valve boxes. Sorry to hear about the burocrats muddying the waters, but I'm sure you can find a workaround - day members, museum status, heritage interest etc. Good luck!
You and your group should be proud of the work that has gone into not only bringing 58 back to life, but doing it in such a way that members of the public can safely experience it, via your group's addition of air braking systems, electric lights, a fence enclosing much of the right of way, signals to ensure operators are aware of exactly where the track is lined, and so on, especially considering the locomotive you folks started with was designed for an entirely different environment in a steel mill. Many amusement park railroads are given a Chance Rides locomotive that comes with air brakes, electric lighting, a whistle, a bell, and so on, and do the bare minimum to maintain it to the point where a safe ride system becomes dangerous. It boggles the mind that the state would see issue with how the Youngstown Steel Museum runs its short and safe railroad compared to some other amusement attractions that exist in safety complacency. I quite like the membership compromise idea, sounds like a better deal in general, being able to ride as frequently as possible with a one-time ticket that helps the museum grow.
I believe the "amusement" business nonsense is garbage, and that your locomotives are running for good, educational purposes. The people forcing this on you should rethink that idea and accept what you're doing more as a museum. Plus your railroad is one of the reasons I wanted to do a 2.5ft narrow gauge steam-powered heritage railroad. Thanks for inspiring me and may God help you win your case.
The best argument you have is how well documented the whole operation's intention is. (Moving and installing a huge Tod engine, tracking down and obtaining the pieces you now have, the research and restoration) There is no barker, calliope or merry-go-round... It makes me sad to think bureaucracy is targeting a grassroots heritage group like you!
Sad to hear about the silly beucratic nonsense that has been enforced on you. Hope you get it sorted out in the best possible way, so you can continue to make weekend rides. About the boiler rivet telltales, could you perhaps explain/show how they work in a future video? Also any updates on the trackwork?
They're staybolts, not rivets. Simply put, if the staybolt cracks, breaks, fractures, etc. Water will leak through the crack and out the hole, "telling" you that it's broken
Or even better, you need a friendly politician with that group in their portfolio, to add a rider to any law, that "grand fathers" your setup as being free from regulation, or some other group like the Agriculture Dept - basically they'll leave you alone.
I know some states let any museum or any other entity that is 503-c (I think it's that) and you don't have to answer to them. However, Go to the FRA and other museums, Maybe they can tell you. Good luck
what I don’t understand is if there is an admission charge to the museum and it’s the same charge if you have the train running that day or not, than wouldn’t that be part of the museum experience not an amusement ride ? Yes more people would come the days the train runs but they are coming for the museum not the train. Are there any old tractor shows in Ohio that have train rides at their show included in the admission? And I would argue that carriage rides are more dangerous because horses are unpredictable! But that’s not an amusement? Yeah right!
Part of your challenge is that you created the railroad so it's harder to claim history that you'd have if you were reinstating an existing track. As it says in the song, better get a lawyer son. Don't try to it alone. I would go to the manufacturer historical society because chances are there are drawings for the locomotive and there will also be an owner's manual. You've just got to get your hands on them.
brp12000’s comment explains a lot. But there’s still the question of just who brought J&L to their attention likely knowing full well how regulation would immediately interrupt an otherwise active and successful operation that is not an amusement industry attraction but rather a living museum.
@@arrowguy173 The track extended out towards the road and the removal of the fence made the railroad very visible to anyone driving by. Hopefully some exemption to the amusement part rules can be found.
I can't believe the state has ordered you to stop offering rides. Ohio is so Byzantine. Have you guys extended the track much? Last time I checked in, it was a curve, a bit of straightaway, and one switch into the locomotive house.
Old train-buff wondering about some over-kill? The support brackets under the side walk boards appear to be about an inch thick. Thoughts ? I'm a retired Millwright and get-off on this stuff.
Do you intend to keep the other 2 as a in built condition as a born and raised yinzer id care alot to see at least one of then stay in original as built form
Civil (or uncivil) servants just love to be spoilsports. I presume dealing others misery, brings some joy into their sad little lives. So sorry to hear what you are having to cope with.
Alternatively, you could just accept the amusement regulations and pay the permits instead of not wanting to because you feel it is government overreach. Converting a locomotive to look like a Berkshire is not very museum like. Perhaps this is just a wake up call.
@@blackbirdgaming8147 We have been "doing it right" for the past 8 years. The regulations are designed for amusement rides that are built in factories AS amusement rides. The state is not "doing it right" by shoehorning regulations intended for a completely different industry upon a railroad.
We are not only a museum but an operating narrow gauge railroad that has every right to modify our locomotives as we see fit for our operations. Two of the fleet are to be preserved as historic artifacts, which coincidentally prohibits us from operating them much on our railroad (having no brakes is not compatible with our steep grade). The other two are not historic artifacts but are J&LNG locomotives. This is no different than when a shortline buys a secondhand locomotive from a mainline railroad then modifies that locomotive to suit their own needs. Those two locomotives will operate well into the future with all of the modifications needed to assure that they run reliably and safely.
