Paxton, Sidney and Norman are 3 characters that came from a similar place in time yet almost never get compared. Lets change that. Why do people love Paxton and Sidney yet Norman gets no love? Twitter: / cbirtwhistle
It's interesting how all three of these characters were supposed to be returnees (Splatter, Dodge and Dennis) but Hit Entertainment wanted more new characters, so they just ended up making these three. I'm glad that 2/3rds of them actually got interesting personalities, but with Norman, he might as well have been left as Dennis imo.
Disappointed that there was no mention of Norman's personality he was given in the 2011 annual where he's so efficient in his work that he's one of STH's favourite engines, but he works so hard to keep up this reputation that he always breaks down by overworking himself
@@railwaysparrow It's also briefly referenced in 'Diesel Do Right', where the Diesels screw up and the Fat Controller seems the most surprised at Norman ("And Norman, usually so reliable").
Norman actually does have some characterization as Dennis' brother, even though Dennis never showed up in the CGI timeline. He's a perfect parallel to Dennis. Norman is a hard-working engine and wants to do well, but he is held back by constantly breaking down. Dennis also has some characterization despite his single appearance, hence his small amount of fans. Dennis is a lazy bum of a diesel engine who can't be bothered to do anything but can work without any problems; he's just really friggin lazy. I don't want to be "that guy" and say that Norman already has a character, but you do bring up a good point about how he's not fleshed out. Good video as always, Mr. Sparrow.
Another thing worth noting is that as Bulleid engines, they'd be cousins with Rebecca and Neville. Diesels having steam relatives could make something very interesting...
@@vincentmorris8431 I have a feeling that the diesel antagonists like Diesel and Diesel 10 wouldn't like that but it won't change anything though with the rivalry and all.
Biggest change to Norman I’d give him is make him a big diesel. There is a criminal lack of larger diesels in the show, so having Norman as something like a Class 24 would help him stand out I think.
Norman could’ve been so great😔as a kid, I was obsessed with him for some reason. Loved his design and persona was alright but I made up so many stories about him. Maybe I’ll publish new versions of them someday. But I see why everyone says he was nobody in the show, because he wasn’t, I just thought he was super dope and underused but loved it whenever he spoke but was so disappointed they never use him. I theorize they MAY have had plans but cut them or didn’t have time for an ep for him (or didn’t make time). An amazing dynamic between him and Dennis could’ve been created; Norman wants to be really useful but has engine trouble while Dennis doesn’t care about work but works perfectly. Would’ve been awesome. Anywho, can’t wait to watch, sure this will be great! Just don’t be too hard on ma boi norm 🥲
I was kind of thinking Norman could have a split personality, one side of him being an all-around prick and the other side of him could be just really nice. I was thinking the two personalities could be Normon and Norman. I think that could both be his flaw and his unique character trait. And for a Story episode, I was thinking it wouldn't be a spotlight episode for Norman specifically, rather an episode with him being the main thing the episode is about with the other engines encountering him and trying to figure out what's up with his changes in personality only to find out at the end that he has a split personality.
I was sort of under the impression that Norman started off cynical, and the negligence of Sidney's repairs played into that (hence him being the one to angrily point out how long he's been waiting for his wheels). When Percy got him fixed, his attitude improved, though he probably would fit as one of the more easily influenced diesels like Den, Dart and Paxton who keep ending up as cronies to a smooth talker like Diesel or Diesel 10, though less out of being a naive doormat and more because he can buy into the idea that diesels are undervalued.
Honestly surprises me how little other diesels get used in cgi, especially Mavis who’s usually a background character, only gets mention, or doesn’t even talk for that I remember.
i feel bad about norman, when i was collecting wooden thomas, he was the only character i forgot about i think it would be cool if the fact that he is a 1 and done class, it would be cool if norman was revealed to actually be dennis, its just they were out of grey paint during a repaint, or maybe it was a punnishment for laziness and forgeting his tasks.
I've always thought Norman would have been a know it all who is always angry because he only thinks on the negative side. Like a kid is eating ice cream and the kid says "this ice cream is good" so norman says "it could fall off of its cone, or give you a brain freeze or even give you cavities" and the kid gets upset
I’ve always really liked Paxton mainly because his interactions with the other engines teach an incredibly important engine that just because someone isn’t as “smart” as You, you shouldn’t treat them as lesser.
Such a good video, shame Norman was never used that much - and I wonder what DODT would've been like with Splatter, Dodge & Norman instead (as was apparently planned)
It was actually just planned to have Splatter Dodge AND Dennis appear in DOTD but Paxton Norman and Sidney replaced them hence them having the same classes as them
Honestly, I would have liked to see Dennis, Splatter, and Dodge more than Norman, Sydney, and Paxton. Dennis, Splatter, and Dodge had hints of character that would have definitely made them fan favorites if fleshed out.
Other than Paxton, these are all characters I overlook. I Knew nothing about them, so seeing someone make a video analyzing them is great. Amazing work bud!
I still never understood why they used 08 Shunters and a failed prototype for them, like they pull goods in the mainline? Wouldn't a bigger diesel make more sense? If Paxton and Sidney were Class 20s and Norman being a Class 14 then nothing woul've changed Great video btw
I’ve thought of Sidney being a Class 20 too but Paxton being a Class 37 and Norman being a Class 16 (they were failures like how Norman has mechanical problems similar to Derek)
Paxton and Sidney being Class 08s regeared to run at 27 mph with Norman being a BR 11001 would be fine if they ran a branch line, but if they're to be mainline diesels, I picture Paxton's face on a Class 31, Sidney's on a Class 37, and Norman's on a Class 15.
When I remembered that Norman existed, all those years ago, I tried to give him a personality, because he didn't have much screen time. I gave him the traits of (somewhat) Nice and Nerdy but suffers from breakdowns and has anger issues. He always seemed to be the type of character to be extremely cocky too, and very independent. He thinks he can do fine just by himself. When I first saw Norman, I always thought he and Dennis were relatives, or even knew one another existed. Idk about you but that's just how I see it fit for Norman. Hopefully this is the "Take-on Norman" that you find somewhat interesting.
fun fact splatter dodge and dennis where going to be in day of the diesels but they where replaced with these characters I guess for merchandising purposes
I would have picked Splatter, Dodge, and Dennis over these copies any day, they would have been fan favorites, I still have a soft spot for Paxton though.
@@Battlefield1918 considering how much paxton sidney contributed to the show I’m honestly glad they were made, but since norman didn’t contribute anything I wish they had actually used dennis.
You did a great job with that Cranky video and even I am most proud of you. I do feel sorry for Norman however, not a single episode written for him was made after Sidney and Paxton has their episodes. Not one written by Lee Pressman, Andrew Brenner, or even Davey Moore, as if no one knew what to do with him. He, if anything, was a forgotten character left to a side where no one wanted him around. It's not like Edward, Percy, Rebecca, Gordon, James, Scruff, Timothy, Hiro, the Scottish Twins, Harvey, Bertie, and a few other characters had episodes to themselves in their respective eras. No, Norman was forgotten about at the first minute or even the last unlike Paxton and Sidney. Also, I do remember The Unlucky Tug complained about the Diesel subplot from "The Great Race" being left completely rushed and abrupt. So actually, the subplot ended with Diesel getting incensed with Norman, Den and Dart for screwing up his plan and gets trapped inside a box. And at the very end of the special, Diesel is accidentally loaded onto a ship away from Sodor, much to Diesel's dismay, as seen in the mid-credits scene.
Something that's often got to me is that nearly every new Sodor engine is exported, right down to Awdry's original 11. None built on Sodor apart from the pre-NWRs. With these diesels being brought out of nowhere, I see it could be a chance to fix that and even give a reason to how Dennis has a brother. I feel as though Tug might not cover the minor guys in Sodor's Finest, so if you decide to try them, and again build new personas and stories off them, I'm certainly intrigued.
Norman not existing irl is fine to me! Thomas & Friends is an alternate universe, so it can be an universe were the 11001 is a class that was a success!
The real reason Norman doesn't deserve love is because he replaced Dennis' role in DOTD and that is unforgiveable /hj But as far as reinventing Norman, I honestly think he'd work best with Dennis as a foil to him. And heck, that could work great with the bad luck approach. Norman is just cursed to have things go wrong despite his best efforts, while Dennis is able to slide his way out of anything and just have things always seem to work out for him. Maybe that even factors into how he's become so lazy. He's never had to put effort into anything before, because life has just given him every out. They'd have a dynamic almost in the vein of Donald Duck and Gladstone Gander. Then you have the approach of Norman breaking down, which is about the only real thing we know about him, and it's only ever been a thing in biographies, never in actual episodes. But that's where Sidney and Paxton's personalities seemingly were taken from when they got their reinventions, so it makes sense to use that, which fits right into the bad luck. Norman could kind of resent Dennis for taking his perfectly working engine for granted. Maybe that leads to a dynamic where Norman tries to push a lot of expectations onto Dennis; things he isn't able to do himself, so he can basically live vicariously through Dennis. But Dennis feels overwhelmed by this pressure, and consistently chooses the easier option of just, not trying, instead of trying and failing, like he's always seen Norman do. Even if they've been said to be twins, I think there's more potential in the dynamic of Norman being an older brother (not to mention he just looks way older, and the breakdown thing seems to support that as well). Then with that, we get a much more layered dynamic, where both are in the wrong, yet both sympathetic in their own ways. Another aspect I've seen people take with Norman that I really like is making him very intelligent. He breaks down a lot, so instead of working, he has a lot of time to just... think. Or even read things (or have his driver read things to him). He could be one of the most learned characters on Sodor. But instead of just being "smart," I think the most dynamic approach to that idea is to make him snobbishly smart. He condescends to others he thinks are less intelligent than him, which that in of itself could sort of just be a defense mechanism for his own insecurities; he can't really be useful like everyone else, so he has to outsource his own sense of self-worth from something else, which he can convince himself is more important than just being "strong," to give himself a feeling of value. Finally, the one *A B S O L U T E* necessity with reinventing Norman... give him a new voice, my god. Why, just why, did they think giving the nasally Wickham voice to this wrinkly ass unibrow face geezer? It's like the complete opposite of what he should have if you ask me. Give him a deep, commanding voice, with maybe a certain raspy-ness to it to give him an undertone of weakness that he's compensating for. Anything's better than, "AOUY Went to Tiiudmoth SHEds to COULecT some CaUERS and thaeuy Haed LOUawds of DeickerAYshoNS"
@@Byron-Hungerford The idea that the model series and CGI series are different canons is just a fan interpretation, not factual. Besides, Norman has been explicitly said to be Dennis’ brother in almost all his official bios and descriptions.
Your idea for norman is really good and yeah both paxton and Sidney are my 2 favourite diesels for being the most kind and gulibul diesel and Sidney for his short term memory lose
Characters in black and white are fine as it is in most animated media when it comes to heroes and villains and it works out well for lots of years so they should even Thomas & Friends. Also, here's Norman's personality and traits. Norman's shape resembles that of his twin Dennis, but he is a diesel engine who is much kinder and more willing to work. He wants to be liked by all the engines, whether they be steam or diesel engines. So he does his part at the Sodor Dieselworks and follows all of his orders; in fact Norman is so efficient, Sir Topham Hatt holds him in high regard. However, poor Norman often breaks down and he does not like that. Unlike Dennis (who is lazy), if Norman were fixed properly he would show what a Really Useful Engine he can be. He is also willing to help another engine in trouble. Perhaps this would help you.
many years back, I was going to make a wooden railway series that would have probably been a terrible, edgy comedy, but one of the plans was to give Norman and Dennis some story where the former is a villain on some redemption arc. poor guy got no love lol
fun fact: they where replacements for the both the CGI movies and the episode that stared Diesel 10 when they first appeared in because in the original cut Splatter, Dodge and Dennis (aka Splodge who were from Thomas And The Magic Railroad and the lazy grey diesel from Thomas's Day Off) were gonna be in the movie but got replaced also Splodge (Splatter and Dodge) where gonna appear in "The Great Race" especially in Devious Diesel's "Full of Surprises" song but got replace again and by the Mainland Diesel Shunters we see again in "Journey Beyond Sodor" speaking of model characters in CGI: 1. in "blue mountain railway" short "standard-gauge and Narrow Gauge Railways" the "Culdee Fell Railway was mentioned" 2. in the storyboards for the Sharon Miller episode "Steamie Sodor" there was suppose to be a picture of Duke 3. in the storyboards for "King Of The Railway" Colin the wharf crane was suppose to return and help with the reconstruing of the castle 4. in the movie "Journey Beyond Sodor" we see a rendered CGI version of "Boco" aka "The Diseasel" only in the scene where Thomas is on the Mainland and gets lost there 5. in the season 23 episode "What Rebecca Does" in her dream part we see her having Pinchy installed so I think that there was gonna be a scene with her meeting the clawed Diesel (Diesel 10) here how it would work: while Diesel 10 is picking up scrap and/or branches off of the side of the railway tracks (like in "Calling All Engines") Rebecca encounters Diesel 10 and she says "Nice claw" and leaves or something like that 6. in the season 23 episode "The Little Great Railway Show" George the steamroller was referenced in a scene when Sir Handel/Falcon mention his wheels if you don't know what I mean then it's just a throw back to an episode in the model era where the steamie meets the grumpy green steamroller himself
I knew Norman couldn't work within canon. His BR diesel class basis was a one-off experiment, and since Dennis was introduced in Season 8 / 9, meaning he was technically an established character. I understand why this happened, though. Day of The Diesels underwent 11th hour changes from it's original darker version, which included changing the planned reintroduction of Splodge and Dennis into the CGI series. According to an interview with Sam Barlow, former script editor of HiT, this darker version of the film was planned, but was deemed "too scary" for kids. In a separate interview with Ian McCue, he confirmed that this was planned by Miller, however due to what we can assume was corporate demanding from HiT, they denied the proposal as they wanted to introduce new characters instead of reintroducing older characters. Unfortunately, when this change was made, Nitrogen had already modeled the template models of Splodge and Dennis. Because of this, they decided to introduce Paxton, Sidney, and Norman. Interestingly, Paxton and Sidney are green and purple, very similar to Splodge. Some have made fan theories, saying that Paxton and Sidney are actually Splatter and Dodge, however are under a different identity to prevent TFC sending them packing. And they stay in their new identities so long they mostly forget their original intentions. These have only been fan theories, but their paint schemes are eerily similar
@@Byron-Hungerford The writers never intended to make separate timelines when they switch to CGI, only continues from the model era. There are references to older episodes in CGI you know.
You know I'm also somewhat of a writer myself so here's how id write Norman he's rude but not by choice when he is with the other diesel he's rude because he just wants to fit in but without the other diesels he's kind. This could work in an episode where diesel is pure pressuring him to something he doesn't want to do but with the help from the steam engines he breaks free I also like an episode where Thomas goes out of his way to help Norman after his bad luck to make up for their crash in the great race that's how i'd write him but what you did was nice
Damn I JUST watched this whole video for the first time now and that BWBA montage at 10:26 was absolutely hilarious XD Very well said about these 3 diesels :)
1:04 In my mind, all characters who were left behind in the model series (and model-CGI if I may) were either scrapped, became recluses or are still working, off-screen. 3:46 He's a tender engine 11:19 Boring Class 08? You mean there's too many Class 08s in the show? I definetly agree. 12:21 That'd be "locomotive"
They exist in 2 different timelines Here's the model and cgi face with model timeline ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-lGH5mBbOLXE.html And the cgi ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-REwgSglqHSA.html I just watched both and the one on the book series he goes into great depth
i still dont get why they made 7 characters class 08's when theres so many unique diesels out there, i dont think theres any other locomotive class that has even more than 2 characters so why so many of these??
The reason is simple. They were made in the Miller era and so they decided to be cheap. It takes a lot more time, money and effort to model a different class when you could just reskin Diesels model.
@@railwaysparrow Actually, in Day of the Diesels, Sidney, Paxton and Norman were actually going be Splatter and Dodge, and Dennis (yes, Dennis), but they changed the decision last minute, and we got 3 new characters instead.
@@railwaysparrow Also there is like 996 Class 08 back in those days so I think that could be justifiable to why there are many class 08 character. Still though, I do wish they added other big Diesel character like BoCo for instance. Heck they could even adapt RWS character like Bear.
As much as I like Paxton, Norman, and Sidney, but it’s still such a wasted opportunity to not bring back Splatter, Dodge, and Dennis because they all deserve a second chance! 😞
Just imagine how many 08s of BR would be like them in the Thomas world, disguisting what they did when they replaced them , tho some would get their earned second life on say the sommerset
I'm actually that one person that really dislikes Sidney. Yeah sure his personality is somewhat unique but what does that mean if both of his lead roles were absolutely terrible. Seriously both "Sidney Sings" & "The Case of the Puzzling Parts" are such brain dead play down to babies watching stories that are not enjoyable in the slightest. I think they could have done something interesting with his persona but they made his stories way too childish and annoying and he's one of my least favorite CGI characters for that reason. Paxton is pretty stupid but pretty much every one of his stories is fantastic and feels like classic era writing while Sidney feels like his episodes were ripped straight from the Miller era. As for Norman I always thought he was meant to be Diesel or Diesel 10's sidekick who would blindly supported them with whatever dumb thing they are up to next and I'm sad that after S17 he just faded into the background. Probably because they abandoned Diesel 10 and made Diesel way too soft in the following seasons. At the end they should have just brought back Dennis like originally planned instead of introducing him.
I know. They should make Diesel more tough and remove softness with more malicious, sinister and devious and have Diesel 10 appear more in CGI and back to full evilness.
I wish they hadn't made quite so many thomas characters based on class 08/09 shunters, they were mostly interesting characters, but I think all of them looking so similar tended to make them feel interchangable, afterthoughts, "we need a new character but can't be bothered to make a new model, make it an 08 and repaint them".
I like to imagine that Norman and Dennis are the same person and how this happened is that Dennis was sent to the mainland to be scrapped because he was experimental but instead the fat controller called the mainland to overhaul Dennis into a “better” diesel and so Norman was born.
You should do Mavis because 1 she is not a mane 2 she has a LOT of development Ps: I know how to fix Norman if you make him nice he’s boring and if he’s mean he is boring so you shall make him nice but if your mean to him he will be mean to you and he’ll NEVER forget it (it’s also a joke because he could have gotten Sidney’s remembrance).
If I rewrote Norman's character I'd make him Dennis he had a terrible crash when he went back to the mainland and was sent back to sodor with a different name and livery so the fat controller would buy him he's nice to Thomas because of past experiences but mean and always grumpy to everyone else he his flaw is that he doesn't want to go back the way he was he was lazy so he overworks himself and he is overly cautious about pulling goods because of his accident.
I remember when I went to Drayton Manor in 2015 I think, I saw a Take N Play Sidney that me and my mum both took quite a liking to, but I bought Rusty instead since I didn't have him yet, and I could only buy one character (I was 10 or 11 at the time). Idk if I regret that decision or not.
Um dennis and Norman are in 2 different universes/or timelines the animated/cgi and the original 12 seasons are 2 different canons so there's only 1 of those engines
