i really hate how tomboys are often automatically put in the categories of "pick me", "cool girl" or "not like other girls." like just let us women be.
Ughh right, I was just watching The Take's video on the tomboy trope, and all the comments are just about "pick me" girls, or how they don't like when the trope makes the tomboy seem better than feminine girls. Like can anyone just acknowledge that in these movies and irl it's the masculine women that get flack not the other way around
This. While there are issues being a “pick me” (or if there’s a lack of variety in writing characters), the main issue is putting down others, especially for approval by someone else. Often times, there are differences in NLOG posts and where they stem from (some really do just feel insecure/not-belonging because they’re different than social norms or how they’re treated, some question gender identity, etc- not all, I would even argue _most_ NLOG posts do not actually put down women for their femininity or for being “”normal””). While there are complexities in social issues and I agree there is a raised mentality against femininity, people who are comfortable with themselves may just be who they are- “basic”, “different”, or whatever. I was real concerned people would start calling anyone just being themselves a NLOG/pick-me and look where we are now. Some of us really are just masc, gender-nonconforming, trans, etc; Just leave people be if they’re not shitting on other people 😤 ffs. Why do people gotta act like every form of identity and expression is some excuse or performance, like-?? There’s no winning, huh
'Pick me' girls are the ones who put women and themselves down for male validation. Ultra feminine women as well as tomboys can be 'pick me'. Actions and words speak louder than hobbies and fashion
@@icebear7555 I also notice some people who invalidates tomboy girls and call them pick me or NLOG. Don't invalidate women' style because you don't like it.
i think they never put a femenine character or a tomboy character just to exist as women, they usually fight for who pleasures men the most and tomboy girls are tomboys in a way men are still comfortable with and can find attractive or change completely to fit beauty standards. they're not tomboys for themselves, because they just express like that, there's a man who finds them "cool", "different from other girls", "funny", "interesting", and they CARE about this male validation.
this video was very much needed. it's so annoying how people have turned the "not like other girls" meme into shitting on any girl/femme person who isn't traditionally feminine and pushing this idea that all girls should be feminine in some way.
Exactly. A “not like other girls” is a girl/woman who has a superiority complex over being “quirky”, and puts down other girls/women who are more “basic”. It is NOT any girl/woman who is GNC
As a hyper feminine woman myself I’m also pissed off that people are using not like other girls to shit on tomboys. Like this is exactly how the not like other girls trend started in the first place! Just let women and femmes be!
the "transforming from ugly to beautiful and then getting the guy" trope, really exposes how many men (also other people but significantly men) do not respect or even give women who they are not attracted to the time of day. i know for a fact that 95% of my guy friends throughout my life would not be my friend if they were not somewhat attracted to me.
I have noticed women do this as well. Not to the same extent but many women are considerably nicer and acknowledge girls they believe are “pretty” more.
Or how, when the gnc woman is seen as attractive, movies present her as a "challange" and with an attitude for the smooth-talking guy to break-in and wear down, then she becomes somehow completely different and girly when he wins and they get together
@@allurajane4979 Well, It's a good thing that I'm asexual and value friendships with everyone. Besides, societal and cultural factors encourage toxic masculinity onto men, which lead to harmful behaviors. I really want to change society.
I really hate how tomboy characters are always given a "girly girl" makeover and suddenly, the guy they like (or just guys in general) realizes they exist and bend over backwards for them. Then the newly formed "girly girl" stays a "girly girl" for the rest of the movie. All because the guy she likes finally likes her back. Edit: And half the time the guy isn't worth shit, let's be honest here.
That makeover was a bad idea. I know that the intention was to make the only female characters get along, but geez.. she was way prettier before the 🌠 glow up 🌠
Being honest, if a guy only starts to like you after you completely changed the way you present yourself to something he likes, he isn't worth shit on principle.
as a cis woman who bounces around masculine and feminine styles I can notice how people treat me differently depending on how I look. I go to the mall with baggy pants and shirt, I get treated relatively normally. I wear a skirt, I get asked if I need help more often, cashiers talk to me more. Its very subtle and maybe I'm just thinking too hard about it, but it really seems this way
I was that little girl growing up that would be climbing trees and making mud pies in sparkly fairy wings and glitter 😂I feel like being a tomboy is more of an attitude than a stylistic choice
@the cutest snail same omg I like cute flair dresses and outfits of varying levels of femininity but at home I like dungeons and dragons and playing video games of stuff like Star Wars and other more guy-oriented content.
I’m very feminine and love guy-oriented things, and yet my mother tried to say how me being feminine is a reason she’s not so close with us (Daughters) and why she likes her son more. And I like so many things she likes too, she’s such a fucking pick me.
@@41052 that’s real shitty, especially for her to have an open bias on her own children and not even see the double-standards/hypocrisy 😤 sorry you have to deal with a childish parent like that
I had such a weird experience as a child, I was quiet, liked dresses and pink and only really had female friends, but I've always played sports and didn't wear makeup or want to kiss boys. I felt like I was feminine in all the 'wrong' ways. I think the cool girls always performed feminity in a more grown up way. The term tomboy was like, immediate coolness.
The isolation/rejection is real. Other women tend not to want to be your friend, and are sometimes straight up passive aggressive?? And if you’re like me and are romantically interested in men, they tend to want nothing to do with you outside of being bros. It’s depressing. That “not good enough for anyone” feeling penetrates deep :/
It also seems lately like any woman who isn't traditionally feminine and says anything about it at all just gets labeled an NLOG or a pick me. Like do people not realize how unacceptable society finds it to not be feminine as an adult? I've spent a great deal of my life feeling like I wasn't "girly" enough. I'm not trying to be cool, or different, or put down other girls, I literally just want to share my experience as someone that's been ridiculed for not fitting the standard of being feminine.
As a gnc individual, I have experienced so much criticism from my family and peers. This video perfectly describes my feelings. Luckily times are changing, and maybe within 50 years or so, the masculine and Feminine gaze won’t be as powerful. Thanks for the video! Love you!!
I can say I've had several fantasies of makeovers as a child so I could be "fixed" and finally have "style" and have something I would have in common with other girls I was a tomboy and still kinda am (but not really) and I've always had more masculine interests in video games and digital media and I've had fantasies of makeover as a child that I would finally become skinny and beautiful and learn about makeup and clothes and accepted by the people around me Thank you for making this analysis because as you said, tomboy adults aren't represented in the media Also I really like your philosophy/idea/attitude that femininity is a spectrum and I've noticed that I've adopted it subconsciously in recent times. Really helps me navigate things and let's me feel happier in life.
I think movies really ruin us that that we have to be this attractive woman who is feminine enough to be considered beautiful and for men to not be uncomfortable about being attracted to them, but also not too girly because girly=bad. But also if women dares to not care about traditional femininity and also dosent care about still somehow being attractive to the dudes. Basicly the mythical "Cool girl" made us think that we can't express ourself for ourself unless man are happy with it. In short this is great video and pink is so your colour
Y’Know, it feels like women and girls can’t be “too feminine”, nor can they be “too masculine”. Like we have to fit into a box. It feels pretty horrible. Although, I somehow moved past the point of caring what people think of me (unless it’s genuinely good criticism).
A recent tomboy character who I love? Wendy from Gravity Falls. I think that show also managed to avoid all the standard pitfalls and just continuously let her be her own character. She never has to change, be more girly, or get the guy. (also her talk with Dipper after his crush confession is phenomenal writing)
As a tom boy myself, I hate how people in general try to put me in one of these categories: A) You are lesbian B) You are a trans man NO I am a cis gender woman that does not like wearing makeup or dresses, and by the way I'm maried do a cis man. SHOCKING, isn't it? Edit: This video made me remember so many situations. Like having fights with my mother because I did no what to wear a girly outfit. Or when I had to use a bride's gown, make up and hair for a school theater thing, and she took so much photos, I mean FILM PHOTOS were expensive AF, we only took photo of very important and meaningfull things, like your dauther finaly behaving like a girl. Don't let me start about how I was completely undesired by boys in general, and mocked by girls...
Yes! When I was a teen I constantly had people assuming I was a lesbian. I didn’t mind dressing up every now and then, but it wasn’t comfortable to me.
Or also: C) you are a pick me girl I’m a trans male but before that I was a female tomboy and everyone picked on me because they thought I was being a pick me, when I wasn’t even doing it to get attention I was just doing it because I was being myself.
Another example of the 'makeover' trope would be Hermione in the goblet of fire - despite her maybe not fitting into the 'tomboy' stereotype, she is required to 'dress up' in order for Ron to see her as a possible love interest.
I grew up as a tomboy, and I never really... learned how to makeup? And it feels Really Dumb to be an AFAB person in my 20s who doesn't know how to contour, or do anything with eyeshadow. Or what the fuck is up with foundation. But I don't feel equipped to try things and I don't feel secure enough to wear more on a day-to-day basis. Part of that is on me for thinking makeup is kinda a waste of time and money, part of that is on society for making me think "girl=bad" as a kid, and making me think "if they find out I'm bad at being girl, I'll be seen as *worse* than girl!", and part of it is baby-me hoping for the _she's all that_ makeover to do all the work for me. That said, I'm non-binary (agender? Demigirl? Genderflux? who knows.) but I'm only out to a small handful of people I know IRL. I can't... _present_ non-binary, because people will assume I'm a cis woman who just "prefers sensible clothes" or whatever, as long as I don't go all the way presenting masc (which I wouldn't even know how to do, but... isn't right for me either way). I'm a kind of safe, being clocked as GNC cis, over being out as non-binary, because now I won't need to answer questions about why I prefer the label NB, and I can drag my toes through femininity without people making a Big Deal out of my gender identity.
I used to act as a tomboy as an act of rebellion, but after coming out as bisexual I realized that it’s ok to act more feminine. I realized that I simply didn’t want to act the way that guys wanted me to but I feel more comfortable now that I know I’m doing it for myself and not for anyone else. Although I still like to dress a bit masculine from time to time, I learned that I shouldn’t feel scared to to enjoy feminine activities! -I’m a girl btw ;)
ohhhhhhhhhhhh. that’s what it is. the feminine gaze. that’s the way my mom views me. she doesn’t want me to be more feminine for any reason except that well. “that’s what girls do”
Before I go into a rant I want to say that I really love the series of you going deeper into the topic of femininity as I don't feel that it gets covered enough in the way that you do it. As someone who grew up as a tomboy, but since has found more peace with incorporating traditional femininity in my gender expression while still preserving some of the tomboyish sides of my personality etc I have so many mixed feelings about the topic of tomboys. And I apologize for the wall of text in advance :D I have had so many confusing experiences from people treating me as a boy when I was a kid for simply being raised by parents that let me do whatever, to traumatic events making me resent the little femininity I had at the time and becoming more tomboyish being almost like a rebellion. Also feeling resentful during my teenage years thinking there is nothing inherent about being a woman that requires one to express one's gender by wearing skirts etc. I felt frustrated by my femininity being revoked as I was called trans by other people as an insult (which obv was very problematic and de-legitimizing to anyone who is trans as well as making someone who is cis feel like they don't belong anywhere as I did not see myself being one of the boys or even wanted to be one) and treated as tho being feminine was only this one thing and it resulted in me often arguing to validate myself by stating that you can still be a different version of feminine without wearing skirts etc. I was desperate for people to understand that being a tomboy and being cis were not mutually exclusive and that I viewed myself very differently from the way a non binary or trans person would view themselves. I do hope that now that we have a better understanding of trans peeps that it isn't used as an insult to be trans and that cis women who don't fall into an ultra feminine category don't feel like they are being excluded as you def feel like you don't belong anywhere as you feel like a woman and still want to be viewed as one while not expressing yourself in a stereotypically feminine way. When I was 16 I went through a phase of taking part in feminizing myself as doing these unprofessional photo shoots with friends just for the fun of it was a big thing for a lot of my peers and my friends. While I definitely enjoyed having done that and it was a fun experience. I hated that it created this situation from everyone that knew me as a "wow she can actually look pretty" and being treated as a late bloomer simply for my friends doing a make over of putting me in a dress and putting make up on my face for this one shoot. It didn't feel like I was myself in the shoot so I had no idea how to feel that way while being still me after that was behind me. This threw me into years of feeling not enough in many ways till by the time I was in my twenties I would often hyperfem myself to alleviate what I now view as gender dysphoria from the perspective of a cis woman. the sense that I feel more comfortable with myself now if I hyperfem myself to escape not feeling enough. I have been trying to balance it all nowadays as I do feel the whole "pick me" and "not like the other girls" convo is both a curse and a blessing as def some aspects of being a tomboy feel like catering to guys while some aspects are simply just a tomboy being one as it feels more like who they are and not because it scores them browny points, but because its just how they naturally lean. I feel that all that I said probs doesn't make much sense as for the past few years I still have had no clue about how I feel about the topic and it gives me a headache each time as I don't know if the tomboy in the context of cis women expressing themselves in gender non conforming way is going to be resolved. I take issue with trans women needing to hyperfem themselves as well to be accepted as women and I am glad to see that men as well are doing their own "tomboy" thing by experimenting with make up, hairdye and jewelry among many other ornamentation more tho it does feel more like an online thing. I think the key to solving this weird idea of gender expression and gender identity being linked too closely is to see more people doing side steps both cis and trans peeps imo. I fully believe there are a lot of trans women out there that are tomboys but still are women. I want to see it being valid to be both of those things as well as neither. But gender expression has become such a convoluted mess that maybe there is no solution and being a tomboy will always be existing on shaky ground.
I hate how gender identity is painted as black and white. It was so rooted into us that even at 3 years old I was saying to my mom. (Who had tried to put dresses on me) “I’m a tomboy, not a girly girl! She told me that before I had loved dresses. I think that I was pressured to put on dresses when I was younger, and then saw from movies that being a girly-girl was bad, so I became a tomboy. I even made up a term for my little brother “Tomgirl” but was quickly put down by my own mother. I am gender non-conforming and I just think gender brings more pain. It confuses people, not the other way around as one might say. It brings pain, so why have it? It’s so deeply rooted into society that others are scared of the idea without any good reason. I find it sad. When I came out to my mother she said. “Ew, you want a (male’s body)?!” I was scared so I stopped talking. My mom assured me that being a girl was easier than being a boy. My expression does not have to fit a tight label. It can be loose. Stop trying to find me one and just let me be comfortable. The only places we should be divided in is by s-. For health related reasons. (Not saying mixing them is dangerous, like for medical stuff if that makes sense?) I don’t even know if bathrooms should be divided. But I may be wrong there. Overall, gender sucks, tear it down and just let people be whatever. Don’t assume gender, always ask pronouns, and just overall be accepting. We can change this one step at a time. (Corny conclusion I know.)
That's why I hate when they promote "Pink feminism" when pink was the thing for girls all along, but ok, now it's cool again I guess (PS: I'm a feminine girl bc I like it and I always did, but I hate how people portray other girls or women who just don't *like* that as "you have internal misogyny/ you are a pick me girl" please stop doing that)
I constantly think about this tiktok I once saw of a bunch of friends getting ready for their prom night, and one of the girls wasn't wearing any makeup. Literally the entire comment section was just people calling that girl a "pick me" and other assorted name-calling of the same vein. It really goes to show how women doing ANYTHING, feminine or not feminine, is interpreted as being done solely for male attention, as if that's the only possible reason a woman would or wouldn't do something.
I find the NLOG meme really insidious, because it's framed as feminist to accuse girls who aren't performing femininity, or who question "girly" trends or gender roles, of trying to appeal to the male gaze. Almost like literally everything you do as a woman will be framed as trying to appeal to men. I do kind of wonder if this is a top-down thing from mainstream media rather than an organic phase in the development of feminist thinking: As increasingly extreme performances of femininity by wealthy celebrities (e.g. Kardashians) have been marketed as "girlboss" "feminism" to their audiences, there's been an increasing trend of popular "feminism" that uses traditional femininity as shorthand for being pro-woman and therefore "empowering", watering down popular understandings of feminist theory until it's barely more than aesthetic "support" of feminine-presenting people *being* feminine-presenting. Rather than radically questioning how systems of consumer capitalism, patriarchy, cissexism, homophobia and racism are combined to impose standards of appearance for women to strive towards by buying more beauty products and other "feminine" things, this version of "feminism" just says that buying into these systems is empowering if (literally]) buying into them makes you feel "empowered". "Empowered", furthermore, has been manipulated into an increasingly aesthetic conception of what female or femme "power" looks like, centred around women in popular media succeeding at the systems of capitalism, patriarchy, cissexism and colonialism by using their ~womanly~ strengths (read: being attractive). Off the top of my head, GoT dragon lady and articles about Kylie Jenner being a ~woman~ billionaire spring first to mind. Evolution in academic and grassroots feminist thinking from previous "waves" of feminism has been a net positive as opinion is diversified and intersectionality increasingly embraced. But I can't help but feel like the kind of feminism that obsesses over femme girlbosses vs percieved NLOGs really resembles a gender conformist reactionary movement against the more radical elements of previous waves of feminism. I think part of this phenomenon may come from the fact that our media is increasingly coming from social networks, where the most influential thinkers and commentators appear to arise from humble beginnings and can therefore be percieved as more democratically chosen for the value of their work than traditional stars and famous musty philosophers (this is mostly true). But the algorithms that drive exposure to feminist influencers are built to favour content creators who are conventionally attractive and/or are recieving sponsorships from companies that are often selling beauty products or beauty advice among other consumables. Any expression of femininity or non-femininity *can* be a powerful form of self-expression and a source of joy for anyone, but content creators are *literally* performing some form of gender expression on-screen, and "attractiveness" (i.e. conformity to certain standards of appearance and presentation) is both directly profitable and a hidden algorithm booster for creators who perform it "well". Furthermore, the very un-feminist social pressure of mass cyberbullying experienced by creators provides the stick to match the carrot: creators will have every aspect of their appearance picked over relentlessly, so are pressured to curate their self-presentation down to the most minute details. All of this contributes to a media landscape where there are more popular feminists than ever before, yet the vast majority of influential feminists are presenting themselves in heavily curated hyper-feminine ways, so the popular understanding of what feminism is, has been narrowed down to feminine aesthetic for the majority of the feminist audience. None of this is to say that any expression of traditional femininity or hyper-femininity isn't a valid form of feminist self expression. But I think it's no coincidence that femininism was not as popular or wide-reaching in our culture when the popular image of feminists was "tomboys", and when the most famous feminist thinkers were calling for an outright rejection of femininity. You can't sell the latest expensive or fast fashion trend to a girl who doesn't care about fashion, You can't sell makeup to a girl who doesn't wear it, you can't sell diamond engagement rings, manicures, fashion magazines and "fit into that special dress" dieting programs to a girl who's decided she isn't about that trad-fem wife. If a girl rejects the feminine gender presentation being forced down her throat, she's harder to monetize. On another note, the glass in her hands looked so refreshing I became thirsty watching it and had to go get a glass of water myself. 10/10 on the influencee experience.
When I was in first grade, I told w=one of our 6th-grader class monitors that I was a tomboy. She said I couldn't be a tomboy because I was wearing a dress at the time. ...
Speaking of characters that are supposed to be "ugly", I really hate that these characters, who are otherwise conventionally attractive, are almost always made "ugly" by sticking a pair of glasses on them.
WOW thank you for this analysis! As someone who is AFAB and fiercely tomboyish as a kid in the 90s and early 2000s, the trope of “tomboys are only valued AFTER their transition to femininity” clearly had a big impact on me at that age. I really appreciate your insights and they way your videos are well thought out, engaging, and witty. 💜
A few of my exes fell in love with me because "I was not like other girls", easy, cool, not obsessed with make up etc. (I never put make up on and rarely wore a dress and even if just because I get hot really fast and can't stand heat so that I don't "die"^^) and as soon I got together with them they would say things like: "If you would just accent your eyes a little with eye make up... I know you don't like it but..." or another one would ask me a hundred times if I don't want to wear this dress again, pleeaase! - NO! You said yourself you fell in love with me because I was not like that. And I am not the type of woman to dress a certain way to please my man. Take it or leave it, if you would like to have girlier girl than look for a girlier girl!
exactly. they want us until they realize we arent appealing their gaze. you want me to be feminine but you dont want me to be feminine hmm seems like u want one of ur boys in a dress 🤷
I'd say I've been a tomboy since I was a kid, always felt weird in high school because everyone my age was starting to experiment with make up and I just wasn't interested in it. I'm still not interested in it, and yeah people always told me to try makeup or wear dresses etc etc. I have even tried to conform to a more "feminine" style in the past but hey... give me jeans/leggings and a tee and I'm happy. Great video by the way!!
I was such a tomboy growing up and I was honestly bullied into adopting feminine mannerisms by my family particularly by my parents who acted like there was something wrong with me until I started acting more “girly”. Even still my family prefers my sister because she is more feminine presenting than I am. Funny thing is I was the one who got the “conventionally attractive” features so it really drove my family insane that I chose wear my long hair in braids, while hiding my face and figure behind baggy shorts and baseball caps. I still like to dress like that and my ability to take on challenges and not shy away from conflict has helped me become a brilliant attorney. So 😝
Your topics are so interestin and ya express all these thoughts we all have sometimes so well, thank you!!! Ya deserve a million subs really, your videos are amazin
So context I’m AFAB and identified as a cis girl most my life, while also being what most would typically call “tomboy”, for the past few years I’ve been questioning my gender and have been “secretly” identifying as Enby for a bit now. The point about how tomboyism is seen as something you grow out of is entirely true, throughout my whole life I was told that eventually I would “grow up and start to like boys and want to look pretty” and while they were right that I as I grew up I started appreciating more traditionally feminine styles and “hobbies” (clothing, makeup, skin care), but I recognize now that I was always interested in those things but rejected it for myself because I didn’t think you could be a “Tomboy” and still wear makeup, more recently my grandmother said to me how she was “proud to see me finally embracing my inner girly girl” just because I was wearing two necklaces that day (when ironically I thought what I was wearingI was peak androgyny with some slight lean to masculinity). I know I should be finding some take always from this, and there are some definitely like about the heteronormativity, and just how even when being GNC there can still be a sort of gender binary that some adhere to, but I think that would make me ramble on more than I already have in this particular comment. However I still wanted to share some of my experiences being someone who has always been seen as GNC and has always had changing gender expressions (ie sometimes being ultra feminine, sometimes being ultra masculine and etc)
I've been a tomboy my whole life and it took me awhile to learn how to come to terms with who I am. When I was a child I would hide my "boy toys" when other little girls would come over and play with the one set of Bratz I had lol. It took me a very long time to accept myself for who I am.
Tomboys really are expected to grow out of it and become more feminine. I feel like I’ve been struggling with being more feminine and less of a tomboy my whole life. I’m in my early 20’s and I feel kind of childish compared to other people my age. Everyone else is constantly wearing the tightest clothes, pounds of makeup with the biggest lashes, and the best wig. I’m a cishet woman who likes my clothes to have room for me to breathe. Occasionally I’ll slap on a wig and put on some falsies or just mascara, wear body con dresses, romper, etc and attempt to wear crop tops but to me that’s not realistic 24/7. I also think black women put too much pressure on other black women to be FeMiNiNe.
Another banger Queen love your content!! My own experience with this: I remember as far as hmmm imma say high school when I realized how people viewed me based off my gender expression: a tomboy. I didn’t really wear skirts and shaved my hair and whenever I did I was met with “shock!” And stares 👀 or made the butt of a joke about how I don’t show my figure off even though I’m “sexy and just in my shell”. It was exhausting but I didn’t let it shape me at the same time. Needless to say I know what world I live in but f*ck that I’m an individual and I’ll do/wear what I want.
Omg...I had the same exact bedframe as you growing up! I'm nearly 30 now, but I had that bedframe in the mid/late 90s through early 2000s. Throwback :D
this is a correction of a word iyou use a few times: i mean absolutely no disrespect, i love your videos and your video essays, like these. in the trans community (which i'm part of) we don't generally use the terms 'cisgendered' or 'transgendered', and it can come across as a bit,, ehhhh if you use the latter terminology. everything you say else is just,, chef's kiss, on point :)
I don't get why we need to keep gendering everything, like every style and interest has to be a form of gender expression, either "feminine" or "masculine". Can't interests just be interests and clothes just be clothes?
I've been seeing a lot of talk in fandom spaces where people will basically call tomboys transmen basically they're not feminine and that it's their head canon. Like an absolutely wild moment where someone Kyoka Jiro he who had the words "Respect pronouns" as their twitter header image.
very interesting! i was always into "girly things" but used to dress like a tomboy as a young teen. but after i finally found a feminine style i felt comfortable in i started to dress *very* feminine. for me dressing like a tomboy was a way out of the competitive nature of teen girls when it comes to looks and fashion. i was the stereotypical "not ultra feminine girl" you're talking about in the first part of the video. i never thought about how different that is from girls who present more masculine because they feel 100% comfortable that way.
That Margaret Atwood quote going straight to the favourites. It took me a long time to connect my obession with women crossdressing and tomboys to gender identity. Hugely problematic and often seen as in need of transformation it can create messy representation.
Why does this remind me of the whole "gamer-girl" controversy (not saying there's anything wrong with being a cisgender woman and playing video games, it just reminds me of the situation and the years it took to be normalized, and in some cases alienated).
miss congeniality should get a rewrite where hart's discomfort with femininity stems from being trans, and he only realizes this via bonding with cheryl, a trans woman
I've always been a "tomboy". It was never a problem either... Until I hit middle school. Suddenly I was viewed by pubescent boys as gross and girls didn't want to be around me in fear I was a lesbian (just because I cut my hair short and wore more masculine clothing). The bullying was the worst. There was even a girl who I thought was really sweet who was my lab partner... Turned out most the rumors being spread about me came from her and she was only nice so she could get answers for the homework or lab from me. I hoped it would be better in high school but the lack of acceptance was still there. I faced two awkward rejections my freshman year. I didn't start expressing my more feminine side until my junior/senior year of high school. Suddenly people were a lot nicer to me and said I was cool and nice and sweet, even tho I had always been that way - all I had done was change up my appearance. I'm glad to have made true friends along the way who accept me whether im feeling more masculine or more feminine and a loving boyfriend who is the same way (I hadn't been so lucky in the past with that).
Lockdown made me realsise I'm a grown up tomboy. Without social pressure I'm jeans,tee shirts and no make up all the way...I like being a woman but I don't want to act like something I'm not.
I agree with those sentiments as well . I also hate that they deem having curly hair and glasses as “ugly” or “unattractive”,,, like wtf thanks for ruining my self esteem and other young girls out there with that.
@@sapphicvampire8504 I didn’t really focus on makeover scenes that much as a small kid and I think curly hair and glasses look pretty, but that may just be my preference (I’d need to talk to other people who haven’t seen makeover scenes to see if they have different views)
Also, I hate makeover games where in "before" the characters have some sort of unique style and after it's just modern bullshit. I played a game where a girl lived in a deadass victorian styled house, and dressed herself as a vampire and the "after" was just a modern simplistic style house, and dressed the girl in some ',professional' styled clothes. I almost had a stroke. I wish the 'makeovers' were for showing the characters how to chose clothes/accessories in their own style, not just the be one big "conform to the current fashion and beauty standard" bullshit.
Just hit section two and yes! Makeover movies always made me extremely uncomfortable as a kid, and I’m an amab enby who stereotypically should be infatuated with the concept. I dunno, maybe I was upset that someone has to pave over their natural identity to fit someone else’s standard. Maybe I was mourning a loss of tomboyishness I personally identified with. Maybe I was just a little boy scared of femininity that I’d been conditioned to think of as alien and I was just lamenting the loss of an nlog girl in a typical male-gazey sort of way. Whether or not my feelings are scummy or pure, I’m glad that tomboys, gnc, and transmasc people are not getting lost in our re-embracing high-fem culture in modern feminism and the gender revolution.
An episode of Hannah Montana always stuck out to me as a pre-teen; the one where Lilly likes a guy, so Miley tries to get Lilly to change into more girly, but by the end of it it doesn't work out because Lilly's crush liked her for who she was, and didn't want her to change. As a tomboy who always found myself around people desperate to give me a makeover, it meant a lot to me that my favourite character wasn't "changed for the better" and was appreciated for herself. Whilst as an adult, I like to embrace my "feminine" and "masculine" side, I feel like that expectation that I needed to change as a teen always deeply hurt, and it would've been nice to see more tomboy characters just allowed to exist
@@alexrose20 yes - after selecting male as a gender on my google and youtube I've seen so many of those videos pop up and I have to say not interested every time. I'm glad I've found these videos though :)
@@hughgleave I switched my gender to male today so I can stop getting those relentless period product and bra ads. I wonder if I'll start being recommended alt right shit now lol
@@alexrose20 mine is female and it took years of just searching what i want instead until the algorithm built itself around my searches edit: i should add that ive had a yt account for maybe 8 years and my gender identity is much more different/complicated now from then lol.
@@pixieinx men are not 'okay' with gay women. theyre fetishizing lesbian porn but i can be the first to tell you as a lesbian. men are not treating me any better. probably worse. sorry but I get really fucking annoyed when non-lesbians or non-bi women try to tell us that we are somehow privileged because men love the fantasy of having sex with us
@@everaster9383 I completely agree, as someone whose pan-sexual, every time I tell a cis-het man their first thought is threesome, when I get uncomfortable they decide to berate me or get mad 😐
a girl once said to me I was a “not like other girls” girl because i’ve taken up skateboarding and im really into it so I was like ouch shawty. you said it perfectly, having a non feminine interest is just seen as trying to please the male gaze. in reality it’s a sport and a hobby and not something I feel safe or comfortable doing all the time, especially alone
I relate to this a lot. I liked “boy things” growing up and it lead me down a road of becoming a not like other girls bc i got upset that i couldnt just do these things and just BE a girl. I wanted male acceptance in these hobbies bc they dominate them and i wanted friends with similar hobbies. Better to be alone than with ppl who hate other women imo. And as a cis het woman, an ex friend would say i looked like a lesbian bc i used to wear wear, get this… a fucking beanie and a flannel. Bro what? I think we gotta throw out the idea that certain fashion makes your sexuality suddenly non hetero… ffs.
@@karabii NOOOO. 😂. The world's perception of lesbianism is so ridiculously flawed. I dont understand why we can't just dress in a way that makes us feel comfortable.
i think a lot of people believe women only think about men and everything they do is about men therefore women can't have interests, because women exist for men and are just trying to impress men
That reminds me. I remember seeing this one comment on a Gator the skater video, and it was about this girl talking about how she loved skateboarding. And one of the the replies went like "I bet you think that you are so not like those other girls" and it was so annoying.
What annoys me is how people are put into narrow boxes. “Girly girl” who likes clothes and makeup and dislikes sports Non-girly girl - who wears jeans and no makeup , likes sports etc There are plenty of of women who wear dresses one day and jeans and a T-shirt the next. Or who like sports and shopping. I know a cheerleader who is also a member of the chess club
Also shoutout to the girls who are neither/nor. I don't really care for makeup, shopping or other feminine things, and I have no interest in traditionally "masculine" hobbies (chess, sports, video games, comics, etc.) either. We exist too! lol
There's also much more than just those two sides. I'm disabled and thus not as into sports, but I'm super into technology, I'm into more androgynous clothes, and I like to be creative with it. It's so odd how much people's expectations change based on what someone looks like,
adding on to the idea of tomboys "maturing into feminity", i think that homophobia (specifically lesbophobia) plays a huge part. more masculine styles / gender nonconformity are heavily associated with lesbianism, and as young girls (and nonbinary ppl) grow older they are expected to distance themselves from that and conform to heteronormative ideals of beauty
Yep. I got made fun of sooo much for looking like a lesbian as a kid and ppl assumed I was one just because I had short hair, didn’t wear makeup, and didn’t like “girly” clothes. While being gay is completely normal and shouldn’t be an insult or tied to a particular look
and it all comes from the idea of it being "a phase" too or we don't knowing ourselves enough and when we grow up we know ourselves better and "mature" and become "normal" again
It's kinda funny, because me being a nonbinary transmasc, most of my childhood was me expressing myself within hyperfeminity, and as I'm growing up and maturing I've been becoming more masculine in my expression and comfortable with myself. There were so many parts of myself that I buried because I wanted to seem normal and like a girl. and only now that I know who I am, I've been digging those thing back up and taking them back.
@Maddie Atkinson Yep this. I was definitely considered a tomboy by everyone in my life growing up and fully embraced that identity and I wanted short hair to look more boyish but my mom wouldn’t cut my hair shorter than the bottom of my ears because of what I can only presume lesbophobia and/or transphobia. As an adult I would say my personality and interest are more fluid. I have a tomboy personality but an interest in historical fashion. I avoid makeup like the plague but I’m a heterosexual cis woman. Honestly I fit more in in nerd culture than anywhere else in the world. It’s a safe space for me to love anime, fantasy, history, folklore, costumes etc. because no cares if I present myself as traditionally feminine. They just care that I can gush about how much I loved a show or hold an intelligent conversation about the minute details about a particular period of history. I love not fitting in with main stream culture because I’ve never cared about it. I just love being myself 🤓🥰
@@222fairydust Holy crap that's exactly what I'm going through atm. I've figured out that I'm non-binary, but I'm scared of coming out to anyone cause anytime I would express feelings of gender dysphoria, I'd be told "you're still young--you'll be comfortable with your body when you're older"
oh please, you're the biggest supporter of the take. you're often on their own vids claiming how tomboys "demonize" girly girls or something. you're probably salty with all your pink dresses you don't get the attention you want.
i always hated the “growing out of it” thing because i know so many butch women and masc women irl, but there’s no visibility for them in media. (unless it’s about demonizing gnc adult women 😑🚬)
As a Navajo women who express herself with “tomboy” to “rough soft fashion” it’s mind numbing when my gender expression leads to people questioning my sexual or gender. My own parents (who are western leaning) telling me to dress more “sweet” or “girl doll like” rather then a plaid lesbian, but I’m ASEXUAL. And my own culture believes in comfort over details for daily clothing, we dress up with lace or our traditional beautiful dress during important events out of practically and reason. I can go from wearing my brother hoodie and plaid to a flower dress with cowboy boots. To be frank “America” has not bother to fully understand or even learn the beautiful relationship between of Native American gender expression, fashion and practicality.
Ayyyy what up. Lets not mention the 4-5 genders in our OWN culture + the pan-indian 2 spirited ppl. My parents are extremely western leaning as well and somehow proud of our culture without being aware that Navajo culture encapsulates everything that they stand against lol I want to rip my hair out
I know!!!! While I am white, I get sort of... nervous(?) when I dress less femininely than my peers. I’m Aro-Ace but I think I still have a strong desire to be straight-passing, and feel uncomfortable wearing “atypical” clothing around other people.
*as a poc nonbinary person, it’s sad that the only androgynous look I’ve seen in the media growing up were girls who look like Ellen Degeneres. while it’s slightly better now, we need more representation!!! I appreciate your take on this.*
Representation is so important. I’m white but I don’t relate to most androgynous models because they’re super thin with no curves. As a size 8/10 with a very curvy body I feel excluded.
exactly! i also find it very telling of white supremacy, fatphobia, and femmephobia that androgyny - something that is understood by many to be ""neutral"" and default - is white, bone thin, and incrediblyyy masculine and andro-centric. Additionally, why is it that most of androgynous models seem to be masculine cis white women, yet if a male-passing individual were to be just a _tad_ feminine and were to deviate from only the most rigid of masculinity - they would just straight up be read as feminine: never even having the access to androgyny as a whole? i feel like this also plays into people seeing being non-binary as a thing for _,,women (lite)""_ and have a hard time grasping that amab ppl can be nonbinary too but thats a whole other can of worms....
@@madelinevlogs5898 honestly. You get androgynous model rep in high fashion (ie a vogue mag will deffo have them) , androgynous models in high Street fashion campaigns are in the minority. If you look at online fashion giants such as Boho or sheIn, the models tend to be 'curvy'(with a small waist) , tan, and blonde, feminine with that Instagram look. You might like the brand 'Lucy and Yak'.
@@kitty4107 'seem to be masculine cis white women' I have seen a few cases where these models have been outed or came out as trans or intersex and its ruined their careers.
Also, I feel like tomboys are way too often associated with homosexuality. Like you say in the video, tomboys are seen through a heteronormative lens, and since they don't fit this typical binary, then they must be gay. Gender expression can overlap with sexuality, but they're not tied to each other. But since this whole narrative says that a woman should present in a feminine way to attract male attention, then they must not want their attention, and therefore have to be gay. Gender expression and personnal expression are a way of showing on the outside who you are on the inside, it's not a way of attracting potential mates. We should be allowed to dress the way we want to, without having any ties to external validation and approval.
So true. My boyfriend and I both have some gender non conforming interests, and I know people have asked him if he's gay when we were younger. We're actually both on the asexual spectrum, so people often will end up asking us weird stuff, or we have to explain our attraction in different ways. Just let us be us?
I think an important thing to explicitly acknowledge is that this association is killing two birds with its line of reasoning. Woman not feminine enough = not good enough for men/not available to men = she's gay = gay=bad. A tomboy who is or is assumed to be a lesbian is not more accepted, just judged through both the lenses of misogyny and homophobia (which is itself rooted in misogyny!) which punishes personal expression whether it's tied to sexuality or not.
I honestly hate his so much like every girl in the media that has a boyish style is termed "tHe lEsBiAn iCoN" amd I’ve been called lesbian multiple times for being a single tomboy
An unpopular opinion, but I'm not totally against Allison Reynolds experimenting with femininity. It's just that the 'makeover' scene could've been better executed. Then again, the main characters of "Breakfast Club" ARE awkward teens and that Claire Standish only knew 1 version of femininity. If anything, 'dark/gothic feminine' would've been a better makeover style for Ally.
I’ve noticed how we did a 180 with this. People on the internet talk as if tomboys were the norms and being feminine the minority and so feel comfortable to mock women who are more masculine, as if it was revolutionary . But the reality is that feminity is sill highly rewarded. When I dress feminine I can notice how different I am being treated. So let’s not pretend that there being masculine as a woman gives you any type of clout in real life, it doesn’t. Women should dress the way they want regardless. I just wished the new anti pick me mentality didn’t put down masculine women as much. No body is dressing for men, but when you associate being a pick me with attributes of women who dress unconventionally, you make it hard for the women who dress and act this way to like themselves.
As a straight, cis man, I've always seen the problem with how tomboys are portrayed, but always had a hard time putting it into words. You do an amazing job putting it into context and explaining the problem clearly. Seeing female heroes/protagonists that are supposed to be independent and strong still being portrayed as if they're trying to appeal to my sexuality, rather than my sense of adventure, justice, or compassion always made me uncomfortable. I can remember feeling like this even back as a kid, though not understanding why it made me unhappy at the time.
@@MEOWMIX3DS i think he means that when someone realises how much likes they got on a comment and says "Edit: omg this is the most likes i ever gotten"
I really wish they had let Tai stay a tomboy in the movie clueless. It would have really tied all the loose ends in her and Cher's fight. They would just agree to disagree and respect boundaries. Tai's style could be refined and cleaned up, but stay sporty or boyish 💅🏿💗
i kinda agree but i think in the end tai instead incorporated her own sense of fashion from how she was "transformed" from cher's little makeover. i think they did indeed respected each others' ways in the end. it's quite subtle, and maybe it's just the way i interpreted it, but i think in the "you're a virgin who can't drive" scene that's where cher realizes the mess she made by making tai turn into someone she's not. in that scene, and a few before that, like when tai snubbed travis at lunch and she started to dress very much like cher. you know, preppy, skirts, and plaids. then in the near ending at travis' skate board event, where cher and tai reconciled, tai opted for a cute, plain and simple style- nothing how then-meddling cher would've dressed her like - preppy and everything. she started dressing for herself (sorry this is long lmao)
@@fairsuns I agree, I think if she went full athleisure for the '90s that would've been fashionable and tomboyish at the same time. But I do understand how you saw a compromise in her style at the end 💅🏿
i was literally thinking about miss congeniality for this whole video then you mentioned it.. like i'm so tired of tomboys being "undesirable" until they present as more feminine. also bts reference! my queen
I think it's important to have discussions about how femininity can interact with pretty privilege. Sure there is a lot of demonization of feminine women in media and portray them as the ''mean girl'' in contrast to the more tomboyish main character. however, both are played by very much conventionally attractive women, the only reason the quote unquote nlog girl's behavior is socially accepted is because she still looks feminine (ie: conforms to mainstream beauty standards). In real life, tomboys who aren't ''beautiful'' are not accepted at all, and the same goes for non conventionally attractive women who have very feminine presenting (as for hair, clothing, etc). I have come across women who said people who reacted negatively to them when they dressed up not because of being overly feminine itself but because they were not ''beautiful'' and by dressing up they stood out and thus ''stepped out of line''.
@@madelinevlogs5898 tbh I think I just realized why I hate wearing dresses/ make up is because I feel like I'm asking for attention for being pretty/ultra fem, when that's not me. I know I'm not conventionally pretty or ultra fem- I feel like a fraud.
Something interesting (read: depressing) that I notice in how people interact with me: I'm not interested in traditionally feminine or conventional interests or style, and don't pay much attention to the gender presentation of my wardrobe as long as I like how things look and feel on me. But I have a naturally very "feminine" appearance (thin with a young-looking face and big eyes) so when I grow my hair out people who don't know me assume I'm much more conventionally girly and fashion-forward than I am. I find that whether I'm meeting people for dates or friendship or even new work colleagues, women I haven't spoken to before will often start off being really nice, complimenting me, all smiles, but if a traditionally feminine topic comes up and I give an honest answer that doesn't fit social norms, or if I'm asked about my looks and make it clear that I don't follow trends or wear makeup, a lot of women tend to cool toward me and start side-eyeing and avoiding me. I've been told I'm "rude" "cold" "weird" or "intimidating" when I know for a fact that I wasn't being anything of the sort. I'm a people-pleaser, and I always aim to speak to everyone around me from a place of empathy and good humour. I have no beef with the femmes, I think they're fun and cool and look great. But there is an element of gender conformity that sees non-conforming individuals as threatening, and this belies that a lot of expressions of traditional femininity aren't coming from a place of progress and empowerment and self-expression, but are really just revamped elements of conservative womanhood. It's interesting to watch the switch in attitude from viewing me as a feminine woman to viewing me as a non-traditionally-feminine person, sometimes in real time I can literally see another woman's eyes glaze over as she realises I'm not *actually* girly, I'm just a twig-shape d*ke with a baby face.
It's so incredibly depressing how I've literally been screamed at for wanting to be masc-presenting(on two different occasions), been called frumpy, and been called a lesbian by guy friends who erased my bisexuality (or maybe they were negging 🙄). IMHO "Not like most girls" trope is 100%*projecting*, because of people just hating teenage girls for acting like teenage girls (I'm 33 FYI, and I STILL wince at the very thought of maybe I'm just faking who I am for attention, when I've literally experienced all of these things that make who I am)
When you said tomboys are always portrayed as children and adolescents I felt such a sense of validation and realization. I’ve been infantalized and desexualized for my GNC traits my whole life. Seeing the tomboy “grow up” to be feminine or have a makeover and come out “beautiful” honestly broke my heart each time I saw it, they always looked wrong to me and I think some part of me recognized myself in that.
Pink was my favorite color as a kid, then as I got older and closer to preteen and younger teen-aged I hated pink for a long time, now as an adult it's absolutely one of my favorite colors again. I definitely wanted to distance myself from traditional femininity for a long time because I saw traditionally feminine hobbies and personality traits as lesser than traditionally masculine ones.
On a smaller sense, in all those makeovers people with glasses were seen as ugly and dorky I still have trouble seeing myself as pretty because I have to wear glasses. It's such a stupid thing but this thing is like... Engraved in my brain somehow.
There's a rhyme my dad told me when I was a kid that they apparently used to say a lot when he was an undergrad -- "girls who wear glasses don't get many passes." I think he thought I'd find it funny, but... 😕
As a GNC lesbian going on 28 years of being a “tomboy” - this was really well said and super appreciated! No one I’ve seen on RU-vid has been able to discuss this topic well. There seems to be a weird idea that GNC women are adored and praised by society like you said - and when asked for examples in media they’ll name someone like Megan Fox in Transformers. She is fantastic, but not GNC in the least in that movie. She just likes cars! I feel like people think “Woman with traditionally masculine hobbies = GNC”, but that’s just not the case. The reason Megan Fox’s character is liked in that movie (and other characters in that “guy’s girl” archetype) is explicitly because they have a masculine hobby but perform femininity enough to still be desirable to men. GNC and butch women do have a general “look” (granted it’s a wide umbrella) and should be presented that way in media - and that’s ok to say and to want! It’s annoying that it’s danced around so much. We GNC women have actually spent a lot of effort to look the way we do contrary to popular belief - we are not “unfashionable” or “uncaring” about how we look! It is a style and demeanor that is desirable to many WLW (and def some other people of all genders!) and carefully curated by the women who choose to present that way. The butch identity in particular has a long and super interesting history. It’s really hard to find examples of truly GNC women in media, and even harder to find examples that treat them as desirable, fully realized characters that actively CHOOSE and enjoy being GNC! Great video once again!
Exactly! Your comment really resonates with me because I'm butch (24 years old) and I hate the assumption that I just "Don't care" about my appearance or about clothes in general because I'm actually really proud of my wardrobe & I feel like I worked hard on it. Like to me personally being masc isn't about neutrality, it's part of who I am and I love it and I want to express it to share the joy I take in it!
I really wish people would just let us be. I have always been tomboy-ish (almost 25 years old, def didn't grow out of it). I do feel and identify 100% as a woman, I'm just not interested in most things that are considered traditionally feminine, incuding the way I chose to clothe myself. The most hurtful thing for me is when it's not just strangers looking down on me, but my own family, like my parents constantly nagging me: "if only you'd wear some makeup", "if you wore different clothes" etc., which often end with "then guys might even like you!" ... as if I just exist to look pretty to guys, ugh. Or my grandmother constantly asking when I'll grow my hair out again (I've had it short since I was 14 years old). I remember maybe two or three years ago in summer, I decided to wear a dress because it was super hot, and that summer dress was super light and comfortable. I didn't wear it for looks, just for comfort, so I wouldn't be too hot in the sun ... And someone commented that I finally looked like a woman ... like that shit HURT. I AM a woman, why do I have to look a certain way to be considered one?
As a person who identifies as gender fluid I can assure you that from my little experience in live I always found difficult to explain to other people my gender. And I always ask myself why someone cisgender can be comfortable in society with their gender without confronting shame or judgment but people outside the binary can’t? Like, live and let live. Hakuna matata or something
Genderfluid here too and totally agree. I had so many dumb battles as a kid and I felt so let down. Why do I get this and not you? I’m ten. You’re an adult. Do you really want me to perform when I could just be?
I think just as how all this can't be divorced from gender things, it can't be divorced from sexuality. Especially the prevailing idea that kids can be tomboys /until/ they grow up. As kids, it can be acceptable for them to not be for men, but by (especially older) teenagehood, they're supposed to have begun their heterosexual development. Overall, it promotes the idea that your kid isn't gay, they're in a tomboy phase and will straighten up once they see the light of heterosexual attraction that's supposed to come with growing up. Like the empowered woman of the past, a gay woman can be seen as sexually unavailable to men and thus not useful, which aligns with the other things in the vid. However, in my opinion, it makes a lot more sense why there's a fear around it when you recognise the homophobia. When at best you'd consider your kid being gay as too big of a challenge to the future you wanted, and at worst as a disgusting, evil thing, it gives the person in a non-sexual relationship with the tomboy a reason to promote feminine change in that tomboy.
I feel like I can say this as a traditionally feminine presenting woman. It’s honestly really frustrating how feminism, a movement characterized by its intention to eradicate gender roles has kind of been co opted by conventionally feminine women who feel targeted by women aren’t as conventionally feminine. I’m not saying “femininity bashing” doesn’t exist or that I’ve never felt it, but you can’t pretend that gender non conforming women don’t face discrimination all the time. There was a girl in my school who joined the men’s football team because there wasn’t a woman’s team and was ridiculed for it. I’ve had a few more gender non-conforming friends who’ve been told multiple times that they’ll “never find a man” because of how they dress and behave. The stigma is real.
Thanks for this! Almost nobody talks about the struggles tomboy women face. Pretty much every video that talks about the struggles of feminine women typecast more masculine presenting girls as nlogs or frame their masculinity as immature or they assume masculine women are privileged over feminine women
Short haired, tomboy-ish adult here. I've increasingly been assumed to be either trans or masc lesbian. I'm neither. Just an ordinary gnc woman and the comments and questions made to me are getting exhausting.
I was a huge tomboy then but I got tired of being treated like one of the boys by guys so I started dressing more feminine. Also there is this stereotype that black women especially dark skin black women are masculine and I don’t want to be perceived that way. I feel my style now is a mix of tomboy and girly.
i have a huge problem with my femininity till this day, with me also being a black woman, its so hard cause i'm ALWAYS getting called a man and i hate it so much; sometimes i feel like i'm not worthy of being feminine :( but my style is also similiar to yours, mix of tomboy and girly
Adult Tomboy. The amount of ppl who assume I'm a lesbian is 🙄 Like just ask. My parents thought I would grow out of it, especially after having a child💁🏿♀️. N yes I had a makeover done on me; for a school project(we got an A), everybody thought I was going to stay in the girly clothes and makeup afterwards.🙅🏿♀️
