Amen! Jesus I’m crying out to you. Please hear my cries. I’m struggling with my faith. I knew when I found Jesus my life wouldn’t be easy because I would have to give up on my sinful life style and follow him. I’m a single mother struggling to make ends meet. Since covid I have been struggling to get back on my feet. I lost my job for declining the vaccine. I declined due to my pre existing health conditions, lupus and heart disease so now I’m having a hard time providing for my children. Both of my sons are special needs. I’m overwhelmed I started homeschooling them due to bullying. I’m waitressing and I’m happy to be back working but I’m not making nearly enough to get by. I have nowhere to turn no family nor friends. No hope. I have been put down and mocked, over my situation. Prayers are all I want. I’m so ashamed and so embarrassed so please be kind. Every month I struggle with my children I’m barely making it. But I still keep faith. Praise Jesus. Please hear my prayers. I have faith God will continue to provide.
Both those preexisting conditions put you at much greater risk for COVID complications. I’m not a Dr., but I’d be extremely surprised if your Dr. Didn’t highly recommend you get the shot. I’m sorry for your situation. I hope things turn around
Child of God, keep loving Jesus. Darkness to light is His business. Stand in his kingdom righteousness, and you will be provided with what you need. Keep on asking. Persistence. Patience in your tears. God loves the diligent mother. Don't give up.
Jesus doesn't keep us from the furnace or the lion's den, we have to walk in with boldness and he will be by our side. God could have arranged the circumstances to avoid the furnace and the den, but how much more glorious that the fire didn't burn them and the starving lions sat there chill? I'm sure that was scary, but always keep your eyes on Christ and not the storm. A crazy storm is brewing, but fear not!
The Trinity had never been a problem for me since I did physics at school. There are plenty of weird things that scientists accept as true that don’t seem to make much sense at first. Quantum mechanics and wave-particle duality come to mind. If they can accept those things that are difficult to explain, then I can accept the Trinity. Why should I, a finite mortal, be able to easily understand the nature of the infinite immortal?
Terrible point and question! Scientists accept odd seeming results when they are testable and repeatable DESPITE our preconceptions. You are preconceiving a result DESPITE no evidence to back your claims. Sad
“My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts,” says the lord. “And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine. For just as the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts. “The rain and snow come down from the heavens and stay on the ground to water the earth. They cause the grain to grow, producing seed for the farmer and bread for the hungry. It is the same with my word. I send it out, and it always produces fruit. It will accomplish all I want it to, and it will prosper everywhere I send it. Isaiah 55:8-11 NLT
Well, I'll at least give you guys credit for tacitly admitting that 1) there's a big problem in logic here, and 2) finding the Trinity in the Bible is difficult.... So at least you showed some honesty here. Some. But then it's an uphill battle making sense of this dogma. Fortunately for me, I was raised by people who were agnostics and Unitarians, so I never had to buy into this stuff. Thank you, God, for that! Praise God for giving me a brain, so I could reject propositions such as "1 = 3" just as I reject "P and not P."
@@the.dannyboy The only thing that is “mixed” up is your ability to interpret scripture. Paul knows full well that there is an ontological distinction between God the Father and his only-begotten, firstborn of all creation, Jesus Christ. In fact he makes yet another ontological distinction in the very chapter of Romans you absurdly claim supports your pagan, spiritually perverted view when he asks, “Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?”-Rom. 11:34 This is clearly a reference to Jah proven by the fact that Paul is essentially quoting himself at 1 Cor. 2:16 where he says, "For who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ.” Thus you embarrass yourself by pointing to a chapter where Paul clearly spells out the fact that as Christians we can’t have the “mind of the Lord/Jah” but we can have the “mind of Christ” showing a clear distinction in nature between God’s mind and Christ’s mind. Try again…
Shalom Bro 🙋♂️ Lets have a Look at that Passage you Quoted because the Whole Chapter is About *Food offered to Idols* or False gods & lords ....Paul was Writing to a Pagan Area that had a god for this and a god for that and a lord for this and a lord for that ..... *1 Corinthians 8:5-6* (N.I.V) (5) For even if there are so-called gods , weather in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many gods and lords) (6) yet for us there is but *ONE GOD THE FATHER FROM WHOM ALL THINGS COME FOR WHOM WE LIVE* and there is but *ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST THROUGH WHO ALL THINGS CAME AND THROUGH WHOM WE LIVE* . =================== Right it Looks to me like the FATHER & SON have the Same function " *THROUGH WHOM ALL THINGS CAME AND THROUGH WHOM WE LIVE* " Or we could use your Logic and Say THE FATHER cant be LORD and the Son Cant be God ...hmmm so EVERYTIME we see LORD in the OLD TESTAMENT its Yeshua/Jesus ....Only when FATHER is Mentioned it is GOD 🙋♂️ I love the Book of Romans ESPECIALLY *Romans 9:5* (N.I.V)
Hmm my post got removed that ok i just print it out again 🙋♂️ Shalom Bro , The Scripture you Quoted , Paul was Writing to An Pagan Area in Corinth who had a god for this and a god for that and a lord for this and a lord for that ...If you read the Whole Chapter of *1 Corinthians 8* its ALL ABOUT FOOD OFFERED TO IDOLS/FALSE gods & lords. *ACTS 17:21-31* (N.I V) *1 Corinthians 8:5-6* (N.I.V) (5) For even if there are so-called gods weather in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many gods and lords) BUT FOR US THERE IS ONLY *ONE GOD THE FATHER FROM WHOM ALL THINGS CAME AND FOR WHOM WE LIVE* and there is only *ONE LORD JESUS THROUGH WHOM ALL THINGS CAME AND THROUGH WHOM WE LIVE* =================== Right to me its seems THE FATHER AND THE SON have the same Function " *FROM WHOM ALL THINGS CAME AND THROUGH WHOM WE LIVE* " But if i were to use your Logic that will be like saying *God the Father can not be LORD and Jesus the SON can not be God* Ok so Every time the word LORD is mentioned in the Old Testament it is YESHUA and ONLY when the Word FATHER is Mentioned is it God .... I love the Book of Romans ESPECIALLY *Romans 9:5* (N.I.V)
Sean McDowell For the Trinity "not a problem" that took a lot of complicated waffling. Unfortunately for the trinitarian you must engage in this merry dance in order to prove this non biblical doctrine.
@@SeanMcDowell You're a good man, Sean....but you have, like Many others, fallen for this Late 2nd--Early 3rd Centuries, Post Apostolic, Roman Catholic, pagan doctrine. There IS but ONE Literal, Almighty GOD----Therefore, there IS but ONE, Almighty Eternal, Omniscient....HOLY SPIRIT! Jesus is NOT a, "SPIRIT." GOD the FATHER IS! With respect.
@@SeanMcDowellI had asked and haven't seen a response maybe this doesn't go to an auto response to let me know that you have replied but who was God in John 1:1
The dimly lit room is the trinitarian room. That are not in the Bible to support the word Trinity which is not in the Bible. The Trinity is the Triad of old paganism with terms from the Bible. The Trinity is a denial of Jesus is the Lord God Almighty alone and by himself as father and the Son and the Holy Ghost. The original Orthodox Faith was modalist menarchism.
Royal Fred Sanders sounds like a liberal with his progressive revelation he doesn't believe that God gave the Jews the truth he only gave him a dimly lit room so they could barely see that God was truly 1.
I have never heard such thought and verbal gymnastics. Right from the beginning saying that the word bible is not used in the bible as an example to explain why the word trinity is not in the bible is disingenuous.. The word bible (Byblos) describes what it is and not any of its contents. A Dickens novel is a book even though the word book doesn't appear in its pages. I'm afraid It doesn't get any better after that nonsense.
@@oftheborg The Scripture says Whosoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God 2jn1:9 Jesus said No one knows the Son except the Father and no one knows the Father except the Son Again; Jesus said O righteous Father the World have not known you but I know you and this have known that you sent me Jn17:25 Kjv Very Very Clear Verse JESUS SAID THE WORLD HAS NOT KNOWN GOD ALMIGHTY Jesus said and I have DECLARED to them your NAME and will declared it that the love with which you Love me may be in them and I in them (Jn 17:26) JESUS DECLARED TO HIS DISCIPLES THE NAME OF THE FATHER John said this is the MESSAGE WHICH WE HAVE HEARD FROM HIM And Declared to you that GOD IS LIGHT ( 1jn1: 5 KJV) GOD IS LIGHT JESUS IS LIGHT So.. JESUS IS THE NAME OF THE FATHER John said Only ONE SAT on the throne Rev 4:2 Paul said Jesus Throne is forever and ever heb1: 8 Question Where is the Throne of Others..? If God is 3 person..? Where is the Throne of Jehovah, Yahweh, Adonai, Elohim, Yhwh, ect..? God is One and ALONE Before me there was NO GOD formed, neither shall there be AFTER ME God was manifest in the flesh (1tim3:16) His name is,== JESUS (Not Jehovah, Yahweh, Adonai, Elohim, Yhwh, ect.) John said for many deceivers have gone out into the World who do not confess Jesus Christ come in the flesh, this is Deceiver An Antichrist 2 Jn1:7 Jesus said the first of all the commandment is HEAR O ISRAEL the Lord our God is One Lord Mark 12:29 Question Who is One Lord..? Answer Paul said Jesus Christ is One Lord (1Cort 8:6) I am the Lord and there is none else, THERE IS NO GOD BESIDE ME, I girded thee though thou has not known me Isa 45:5 One Lord one faith and One baptism One God and Father of all Paul said but even if we or an angel from heaven preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you let him be Accursed (Gal 1: 8)
Where's your verse for "Jesus is the divine son of God"? Jesus calls Peter "blessed" in Matthew 16 for getting his identity right. Jesus explains in John 14:10-11 that God INDWELLS him. If he were God, that would be a ridiculous thing to say. And the first letter of John would look VERY different if the Trinity were true and Jesus were God. Would he really repeat his warning in 1st John 4:2-3 if Jesus were divine??? The man you replied to has an excellent RU-vid channel which you would do well to watch.
@@leenieledejo6849 John 10:33-3- The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
Great stuff brothers, stay encouraged! 3 dimensional beings… trying to describe our triune, loving God, who created time, space and all matter. What an amazing thing that He stepped into His creation, to reveal Himself to us, and pay the price that we may come to know and love Him back
@@TheCaledonianBoyNot necessarily, many times the Bible uses the word God but we know that he was addressing the Father. The best way to put is, because God is trinity then the word God can be used for any persons of the Trinity.
Well, if logic and reason is an appropriate tool for discerning truth from error, this argument matters: 1. There is only 1 Most High God. 2. The Father is the Most High God. 3. Jesus is not the Father. 4. Therefore, Jesus is not the Most High God. The argument is valid and sound. Modalists can reject premise 3. But what premise can Trinitarians reject? Contradictions are falsehoods. God doesn't want us believing in falsehoods:) Respectfully, brothers, both Scripture and logic are against this teaching.
Sorry, it may be valid and sound, but it would ONLY be a true argument if #2 said, "ONLY the Father is the Most High God." Since Jesus is referred to as the Yahweh of the Old Testament, worshiped as God, and called, "God", we have to assume He IS the Most High God as well as the Father and the Holy Spirit. Think of your argument, if you were to draw it out, as a large circle titled "The Most High God". Within that circle, you include the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit as separate small circles. All three are the Most High God. It's like John 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." On the surface, this would mean the Son is NOT the only true God. But this is why the Trinity is the only consistent explanation for all of Scripture, because the Father IS the only true God, but so is the Son and the Holy Spirit. You'd have to be a polytheist to say otherwise.
@@djparsons7363 Sure. I can think of two specifically. 1. John 12:37-41 v. 41 says, "These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him." NKJV So where is John quoting here, when he says Isaiah saw Jesus' glory? It's Isaiah 6, when Isaiah saw Yahweh. You can compare them and read it for yourself. 2. Hebrews 1:10-12, where right before the Father calls the Son, "God", it quotes about Jesus in Psalm 102:25-27, referring to Yahweh once again. Jesus is worshiped by God by his disciples and others without any correction. Jesus is called God by Paul and other disciples. Jesus is referred to as the "Word made flesh", the Word who is God in John 1:1-2. That's just a tiny sample. The Bible cannot be more clear that Jesus is God incarnate, and denying it is denying Jesus.
@@biblicalworldview1 Isaiah spoke of the people not putting faith in Jehovah despite all the signs he performed. John is applying Isaiah's words to the way the people reacted to Jesus and the signs he performed. The glory Isaiah saw was Jehovah's, not Jesus'. Why does Hebrews 1:10-12 quote Psalm 102:25-27 and apply it to the Son, when the psalm says that it is addressed to God? Because the Son is the one THROUGH WHOM God performed the creative works there described by the psalmist. (See Colossians 1:15, 16; Proverbs 8:22, 27-30.) It should be observed in Hebrews 1:5b that a quotation is made from 2 Samuel 7:14 and applied to the Son of God. Although that text had its first application to Solomon, the later application of it to Jesus Christ does not mean that Solomon and Jesus are the same. Jesus is “greater than Solomon” and carries out a work foreshadowed by Solomon.-Luke 11:31. John 1:1 is not an accurate rendering in the KJV, many other Bible translators DO NOT AGREE with the Word being God. Five German Bible translators use the term “a god” in that verse. At least 13 others have used expressions such as “of divine kind” or “godlike kind.” These renderings agree with other parts of the Bible to show that, yes, Jesus in heaven is a god in the sense of being divine. But Jehovah and Jesus are NOT THE SAME BEING, the same God.-John 14:28; 20:17. With the KJV rendering of John 1:1 being opposed by so many other Bible translators you cannot be dogmatic that the KJV is the absolute truth, it is full of inaccuracies.
@@djparsons7363 I don't generally use the KJV, so I'm not sure why you are taking issue with it. The same translation of these verses is found in every modern English translation. Although the KJV is certainly a much better translation than the NWT, because it doesn't add words not found in the Greek to support aberrant theological beliefs. I go by what the Greek says. The Isaiah quote is related to John 12:41 where it says, "Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him" (ESV), regardless of the translation, they ALL say that Isaiah SAW Jesus' glory and spoke of him. Please consider this and don't just dismiss it. I grew up in a religious group that denied the Trinity and taught it as polytheism and a doctrine of demons. I denied the Trinity until I really looked into what the Bible taught about God separated from my prior beliefs. Hebrews 1:10-12 is directly talking about the Son as Creator God Himself and calling him "Yahweh" relating Him to the same Yahweh Psalm 102:25-27 is talking about, because it quotes it verbatim. No good Bible translator adds words to the Greek text to make it say something else. There is one God, not Jehovah God and demigods. I wouldn't compare 13 bad translators to thousands of good ones and say that somehow refutes the good ones. Who are the German translators you speak of? Would you agree that God doesn't share His glory with any other, for He is a jealous God?
One of the primary reasons why this is confusing for humans is because we are one being (human) with one personhood (Sean, Fred, etc.). God is not like us in this regard, in that He is one being with three personhoods. Thus, we struggle to understand this, which is both logical and reasonable since this relates to God; divinity cannot be dissected and fully understood by a creature.
While hearing what was said about analogies, I need one. As a technologist, this is mine. Picture an AI. The same AI can be the "mind" of and animate multiple robots at the same time; each robot can be performing different activities. Interact with any individual robot (maybe one is red, a second is green and a third is blue) and you are still really interacting with the same, single back-end AI. The "what" is the AI; the "who" is the red robot, the green robot, the blue robot.
@First_Chapter the true Biblical understanding is that the Spirit is the breath/mind/power/presence of God. God is a spirit. He is breath and life. Jesus is the begotten Son of God. He was also spirit or breath. But Jesus then became the Son of Man, becoming human to manifest the character of God. He is His express or graven image. That is why we are not t9 make graven images. Because Jesus and humans are the ones He created. And Jesus is the only image of God we need. Because we corrupt any image we make and rely on our own works instead. Jesus then had to return to His Father to be glorified and so He could be made into a life giving Spirit again. As an unglorified human he couldn't be the parakletos. The Spirit of Christ is actually the Father sharing His spirit through the spirit of His Son. The spirit is the power and presence of both. When Christ knocks on the door of the church of laodicea, He is trying to tell the CHURCH to let Him in. They have the wrong spirit. HE is the Spirit, not some 3rd person of a God that doesn't exist.
Especially one as important as the nature of God! He has waay too many clear concise scriptures talking about Himself in the Hebrew bible to fail to mention this one important part.
Our Lord used analogies. Here's one of mine: "Coming Closer to the Wind, Coming closer every day. He will bring us to the Father By the True and Living Way."
I’m agnostic on this doctrine because I’m careful to follow 1 Corinthians 4:6, where we are specifically told not to go “beyond what is written”. I believe this doctrine has done that and thus has essentially violated what Paul said. I also think it has the potential to be a thing that empties the Cross of its power as Paul speaks about in 1 Corinthians 1:17 and the beginning of Chapter 2. I think on this issue, we should also be Proverbs 3:5 thinkers and be extremely gracious about it and extra careful. Just stick with what the scriptures say, and use that language. Don’t invent other doctrines or phrases that may empty the cross of its power and might even lay a stumbling block in the way of someone, which is another thing Paul stresses not to do! For these matters, I follow all of these guidelines from the Scriptures: Learn by us not to go beyond what is written, rightly handling the word of truth, so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God. Do not teach any different doctrine. See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit. I say this in order that no one may delude you with plausible arguments. Avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law or about words, for they are unprofitable and worthless, leading some to wander away into vain discussion, which promotes speculations rather than the stewardship from God that is by faith. Insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. Be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. Faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.
Hi, Greg. I am just curious to know in which aspect you believe the doctrine of the Trinity goes beyond Scripture. 1) There is one God 2) The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God 3) The Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are not each other That summarizes what the Bible teaches on the nature of God, so to not believe it would be to reject one of these three things. Thanks!
@@biblicalworldview1 - I’m agnostic on the general idea of the Trinity, in that God is one substance, composed of 3 persons. I also wonder if it really even matters, since from my perspective most of it is a philosophical exercise which, at the end of the day, doesn’t lead to producing good works but instead has ventured into speculation. But my biggest concern is that the church has done all of that and then placed a “you must believe this or you don’t have the correct Jesus” stamp on it. That is scary imo since it flirts with introducing infallible division by the means of a fallible interpretation by men who aren’t apostles and who didn’t write any scripture. I think the church has done this to such a degree that many of us can barely see straight and our faith rests in the wisdom of men rather than on the word of God.
@@gregmahler9506 I appreciate that, but when you reject the Trinity, you are saying either there is 1) NOT only one God, 2) The Father IS the Son or the Holy Spirit, or 3) Jesus is not God or the Holy Spirit is not God. A true believer would believe God as He is. It's not the same as having the rapture wrong or when the millenium is. If you'd read a short book, I highly recommend "The Forgotten Trinity" by James White. I understand being humble and agreeing that we cannot know everything about God, because He is God and we are not. But we surely ought to believe what He says about Himself in the Bible.
@@biblicalworldview1 - agnostic means something different than “reject”. However I do think that the church has swerved away from the truth due to human argumentation on issues like this. And have thus, emptied the Cross of its transforming power like Paul warned in 1 Cor 1:17 would happen if you added to the gospel or went beyond what is written. For example, I agree that Jesus is God but God just means “elohim”. As in Psalms 82 that Jesus quoted “you are gods”. But he also didn’t posses all knowledge, lacking where the Father wasn’t lacking. Also there can only be one “Most High” Elohim. If there are 3 person who share “Most High Status” and you addresses any of them singly, they would not be the “Most High”. Lastly, I can not make sense of a passage like this on the general Trinity rubric: “Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.” 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 ESV There are clearly two “entities” referenced here and only one of them is ruling over the kingdom at a time. And I think the issue here is that “God” can just mean “elohim” or spiritual being, and yet is universally translated as if it’s referring to the “Most High” father elohim. So for example in John when it says “was with God and was God.” If God means “Elohim” or spiritual being, then it makes sense in a way that is not saying what the usual Trinity definition is saying, which is that God here means “the Most High Elohim”, a title of the Father alone. Does this make sense?
@@biblicalworldview1 - anyways here is my current view on all of this, based on what I see in scripture: Father = Most High Elohim Son = Image of Most High Elohim, firstborn of the Father. Himself is Elohim, but not the Most High. Became->Jesus = permanent fusion of man and the pre-extant Son, truly man, but also truly Elohim, raised to power by the Most High Father to a status above all other created things, in charge of the Kingdom currently, but will one day hand it back over to the Most High Elohim, his Father. Holy Spirit = emanates from the Most High Father. Himself is Elohim, but not the Most High. Indwells Jesus and believers in him, granting them divine gifts.
My understanding of the trinity came to me years ago. Very simply! The person of the father is invisible, person of the son is visible and he created all we see past, present and future. And the holy spirit is our connection in knowing God. All scripture based. Simple!!!
I want to tell you the fascinating story about when the Trinity verse was added to the Bible. This is a well-documented fact, detailed in "Whose Word Is It?: The Story Behind Who Changed the New Testament and Why" by Professor Bart Ehrman, an expert in biblical textual criticism. In the 16th century, Erasmus, a Dutch scholar, produced the first printed edition of the Greek New Testament. The New Testament was originally written in Greek, but had been translated into Latin over the centuries. Erasmus aimed to create a critical scholarly edition based on Greek texts, relying mainly on late medieval manuscripts from the 12th century. Erasmus’s edition of the Greek New Testament was later used by the translators of the King James Bible and other versions until the end of the 19th century. However, the Greek manuscripts Erasmus used were not of high quality and were produced about eleven hundred years after the originals. For example, his main manuscript for the gospels included the story of the woman taken in adultery and the last verses of Mark, which were not part of the original gospels. One key passage missing from Erasmus’s manuscripts was 1 John 5:7-8, known as the Johannine Comma, which explicitly supports the doctrine of the Trinity. This passage is found in Latin Vulgate manuscripts but not in the majority of Greek manuscripts. The King James Version includes this verse: "For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one." Bart Ehrman notes, "The Greek manuscripts that Erasmus used were not of the best quality... produced some eleven hundred years after the originals." Erasmus did not find this verse in any Greek manuscripts he consulted, so he omitted it from his first edition. This omission outraged theologians of his time, who accused him of tampering with the text. Erasmus reportedly agreed to include the verse in future editions if a Greek manuscript containing it could be produced. Consequently, a Greek manuscript was created in the 16th century, likely by translating the Latin text into Greek. Despite his reservations, Erasmus included the verse in subsequent editions. These editions formed the basis for the King James Bible and other translations for centuries. The phrase "Textus Receptus" refers to this widely accepted form of the Greek text, despite its reliance on inferior manuscripts. Modern textual scholars now insist on using older and better manuscripts to base the Greek New Testament on scientific principles. The Textus Receptus, though still revered by some fundamentalists, is based on late medieval manuscripts, whereas earlier manuscripts, such as the Codex Sinaiticus, do not contain the Johannine Comma or other later additions. Ehrman explains, "This passage... states the doctrine directly and succinctly," but it "was not in Erasmus's primary manuscript or in any of the others that he consulted." This realization challenges the solid basis for the Trinity doctrine in the Bible, making it difficult for some Christians to accept.
As a theologian you may want to consider . 1. Neither does the Flat Earth with an upturned edge under a Firmament contradict scriptures (which I believe) 2. Scriptures are designed for children to understand 3. Scriptures are self-explanatory if you need to explain them to someone then you're overthinking them.
Flat earth may not contradict scripture, but it contradicts science. Not all children can understand all scripture. People come from different backgrounds and educational levels. Some concepts may be harder for some to understand, and need more explanation.
@@lisanlovesName one culture that doesn’t understand the relationship between a father and his son? Will any one of them conclude that they are the same human “being”? No. It’s ridiculous. Therefore, the Trinity is likewise equally absurd.
@@lisanlovesThere is no such thing as an “eternal son.” This is just Trinitarian wishful thinking read into the text. All the language used to describe Christ is temporal, e.g. “son”, “firstborn”, “begotten”, “beginning”, “creation”, “created”, “origin”, “became”, “representation”, “image”, etc. There’s nothing that denotes “eternality” when it comes to Jesus. Such a notion is foreign to the Bible.
@@carsonphillips1377..... tell us a bit more about this trinity thing. Yeah Patrick tell us but remember that we're simple people without your fancy education in books and learning and we're hearing about all of this for the first time so try to keep it simple.....Okay Patrick?
Nehemiah 9:6 “You are the Lord, you ALONE. You have made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them; and you preserve all of them; and the host of heaven worships you. God is one🙏
The only time I've ever heard a prayer to the Holy Spirit was in the opening prayer of the service that day: "Holy Spirit it be among us in your fullness this day"
I remembered "a great suggestion" in order to understand God: " Seek not to understand that you may believe, but seek to believe that you may understand ..."
Not a suggestion from the bible. As faith comes hope and we must reason our hope as 1 Peter 3:15. Blind faith allows people to believe in nonsense like Jesus being God, but if you read the Holy Bible he was not nor could legally be other than a man, whose Father was God.
@Simon Skinner You could not be more wrong. Many Scriptures make it clear that Jesus is God and claimed it repeatedly. However, one only has to point out that Jesus was crucified for blasphemy -- precisely the "blasphemy" of claiming to be God Himself, I Am. Do you not believe the Bible?
@@justin10292000 Jesus was possessed by the Holy Spirit that he received at baptism, as Jesus explained in John 5:31 he as a person was not witness to himself, but his Father who he impersonated. Blasphemy was for breaking Sabbath and calling himself Son of God as John 5:18, he never would or could claim to be God, he had to be born of a woman under the law to qualify to be the Messiah. When he said "I am'" those words came from God who was inside him. My latest Ytube video 'John 3:13 Did Jesus come down from heaven? No #28 Myths in so-called Christianity' exposes another misreading of the NT as people try to make Jesus into the Creator.
@@justin10292000 many scriptures make it clear that Jesus is God lol yet your church fathers, history, primary sources say otherwise. it's hilarious how, no matter what, idolators will find their way to the fire.
Every time I hear someone try to explain the 3 in 1 trinity I get a huge headache. It just absolutely makes zero sense that Jesus speaks to himself in the Bible.
Contrary to Mr Jeff Blanton's antichristian Jehovah-Witness teaching, John wrote that the Word was with God and the Word was God. Jn 1. 1 Jn 2:21-23. Instead of brother Eric's "same essence...[different person]" words, Jesus stated that the Father is in the Son while the Son is in the Father. Jn 14.
@@wallysmet5076 Well that statement explains your heart. Your reaction speaks volumes. I suggest you learn to follow Jesus Christ and reserve your judgement for Him that has power to judge.
BASIC SCRIPTURAL TRUTH TO HELP HONEST-HEARTED ONES SEE PAST THE MATRIX OF THIS LYING WORLD THAT WE LIVE IN THE UNIVERSAL FAMILY COMPRISES OF ALL INTELLIGENT BEINGS CREATED IN THE IMAGE OF GOD: 2 CORINTHIANS 4:4 GOD’S FIRST CREATION IS MENTIONED IN PROVERBS 8:22-36 WHICH REVEALS WHAT IS TAUGHT IN COLOSSIANS 1:15-17 THIS IS CONFIRMED IN THE WORDING OF JOHN 3:16 WHERE THE TERM “ONLY BEGOTTEN SON” IS USED TO DESCRIBE THE ONLY ONE WHO WAS DIRECTLY CREATED BY GOD AS ATTESTED TO IN REVELATION 3:14 AFTER JEHOVAH GOD CREATED HIS FIRST SON THE REST OF THAT WOULD BE CREATED CAME INTO EXISTENCE BY MEANS OF JEHOVAH GOD BEING THE GREAT ARCHITECT AND HIS FIRST CREATION BECOMING THE MASTER BUILDER AS EXPLAINED IN JOHN 5:19 AFTER THE DIRECT CREATION OF THE “ONLY BEGOTTEN SON” CREATED BY GOD TOGETHER THEY PRODUCED BROTHERS FOR THE FIRST SON TO HAVE AS STATED IN COLOSSIANS 1:16 THUS CAUSING JEHOVAH GOD TO BECOME THE FATHER TO A GREAT MULTITUDE OF SONS BEFORE THE CREATION OF THE PHYSICAL UNIVERSE JOB 38:7 ALL THE SONS OF GOD ARE LITERALLY CREATED IN THE SAME NATURAL SPIRITUAL ESSENCE OF GOD’S IMAGE: HEBREWS 1:7; HEBREWS 12:29 WHEN THE CONTEXT OF CREATION IS KEPT IN PLACE WE CAN SEE WITH OUR MIND’S EYE WHO IT WAS THAT THE CREATOR JEHOVAH GOD WAS TALKING TO IN GENESIS 1:26 AS EXPLAINED IN JOHN 1:3,4 IT IS BECAUSE GOD’S FIRST CREATION TOOK ON FLESH THAT HE WOULD ALSO BECOME BROTHERS WITH: JOHN 1:12 THE FACT THAT JESUS CAN AND DOES HAVE BROTHERS IS WHAT PROVES THAT JESUS IS ALSO A CREATION OF GOD THE FATHER OF ALL CREATION AS JESUS SELF PROCLAIMS: REVELATION 3:14 BECAUSE THE HUMAN SECTOR OF THE UNIVERSAL FAMILY WAS STEERED INTO TAKING A WRONG TURN THE FATHER OF ALL INTELLIGENT CREATION BEING A JUST GOD TOOK ACTION TO MELT OUT JUSTICE BEING THAT ONE OF HIS SONS TURNED INTO A TRADER AND TOOK TO MISLEADING OTHERS JEHOVAH GOD AGAIN DELEGATED TO HIS FIRSTBORN SON: 1 JOHN 3:8 AS SET PERFECT JUSTICE: DEUTERONOMY 19:21 CALLS FOR AN EXACT EQUAL VALUE: 1 CORINTHIANS 15:45 THEREFORE SINCE IT IS THE WICKED ANGELIC SONS OF GOD THAT HAVE BEEN CAUSING HARM TO THE HUMAN FAMILY JUSTICE MERITS THAT A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF HUMANS BE GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY TO TURN THE TABLE: 1 CORINTHIANS 6:3 BECAUSE THE SON OF GOD WHO IS ALSO THE CHEIF AGENT OF LIFE WAS SENT TO EARTH TO BECOME A HUMAN - HE TOO EXPERIENCED DEATH BY MEANS OF THE ONE WHO CAUSED DEATH TO ENTER INTO THE WORLD: GENESIS 3:15; HEBREWS 2:9,10 JEHOVAH GOD BEING THE CREATOR/FATHER OF ALL INTELLIGENT CREATURES THAT WERE CREATED IN HIS IMAGE IS SEEING TO IT THAT JUSTICE WILL BE CARRIED OUT BY MEANS OF: EPHESIANS 1:10 THEREFORE JESUS AND THE LIMITED AMOUNT OF HIS BROTHERS WILL GO TO HEAVEN TO MAKE UP THE ADMINISTRATION OF THE HEAVENLY KINGDOM/GOVERNMENT THAT WILL BRING ABOUT JUSTICE FOR ALL: REVELATION 14:3 WILL RESTORE THE PERFECT CONDITIONS ON EARTH THAT WAS GIVEN TO THE FIRST HUMAN BEINGS: ROMANS 8:19 JESUS SUFFERED DEATH WHICH IS SOMETHING THAT THE CREATOR COULD NEVER EXPERIENCE THIS IS WHY JESUS CAN HAVE BROTHERS: HEBREWS 2:11,14 THE AUTHORITY OF JESUS BROTHERS: REVELATION 5:10; 2:26,27 AT THE COMPLETION OF JESUS MISSION: 1 CORINTHIANS 15:24-28 THE TEACHINGS OF THE TRINITY DIMINISH THE FATHER AND THE SON BY EQUATING ALMIGHTY GODSHIP TO THE SON WHICH EXCLUSIVELY BELONGS TO THE FATHER AS THE ONLY UNCREATED BEING: 1 JOHN 2:22
"He shall be called . . . everlasting Father." -- Isaiah 9 is a slam dunk answer, period. Any further argument is unnecessary and I'm not playing mental gymnastics with someone over plain black-and-white Scripture. Nothing hidden about this prophecy.
One of the best discussions on the trinity yet. One thing wasn't addressed - the definition of "person" since the claim is God in 3 persons. Sean, you are self conscious, intelligent, with a brilliant mind and some creative power, you are made in the image of God after all. Do you think your mind and creative power is another person or part of your own self? God is supremely self conscious, intelligent and has perfect mind with unlimited creative power. Why do you think God's mind and power is a separate person and not just part of HIS OWN SELF?
I've found the Trinity to be confusing and beyond my ability to really comprehend. But what real thing isn't hard to understand? I would expect the finite to have a very hard time understanding the infinite. And the fact that people have a hard time understanding this I feel lends credence to it being the truth.
If you cant explain something to someone in an understandable way you don’t understand it yourself. But sure let’s give god a pass on explanation cause he’s only going to torture people for eternity…. Wait..
@@logan666 Wrong, God does not condemn anyone, people foolishly condemn themselves by refusing to accept the free gift of Salvation. So, God is a perfect and holy God, He CAN NOT enter the Presence of sin did you know that? His Holy Being would destroy that sin, that is why Jesus had to be left all alone on the cross and that why he cried out "My God, my God why have you forsaken (left) me? When Jesus rose and saw Mary, in John ch. 20, he told her touch me not for I have not yet ascended unto the Father, but 8 days later he told Doubting Thomas to touch his wounds. If Mary had merely touched Jesus she would have defiled the Sacrificial Offering and God could nit have accepted it because it would have had sin stained hands on the sacrifice. So, life lies in the blood, our sin is death and thus we needed and atonement of innocent blood in order for God to justify us, and cleanse of from our sins, he sent Jesus who loved us enough to do that or else Satan would have already defeated us. Satan is the god of this world as we speak, God had to win us back. So, in essence you were condemned to hell by the Sin Stain of Adam, and Jesus died for you, all you have to do is accept that FREE GIFT. Now, what would you call a man on *DEATH ROW* who refused a *Pardon* ? Most people would call him very, very dumb, and they would have to say what? Ultimately that man *CONDEMNED HIMSELF* and thus Gid is not torturing you, you are refusing His FREE GIFT that can give you life eternal, and you instead listen to the liar Satan who deceives you, you blame God when it was that LYING FOOL who created a chasm n=between man and God. Thus you will win your prize, Hell was created for Satan and his Demons, yet YOU............YOU..........YOU are choosing to be separated from God for eternity, because He can not welcome anyone to heaven with sin in their life. So, you will win your prize Satan and his demons will indeed torture you, and laugh at you, every time they defile you. And God is just not able to receive the FOOL who refuses the FREE GIFT of Eternal Life, because God's Presence can not abide sin. DUH
One problem in explaining the Trinityis people often describe IT AS,'three Persons in one God." The early Church Fathers never used the word"persons" in describing the Trinity as, "persons" implies three sperate egos THe Trinity is One Ego The Trinity is not 1 + 1 +1 = 1. It is 1 x 1 x 1 = 1.
It is true that there is through the New Testament the motive of Father, son, and Spirit, however this does no mean that their relationship agrees with the doctrine of the Trinity as it has been stated since 325 AD.. There are many problems that arise when we try to make sense of Jesus preexisting as God also. There are ontological problems to start with. From scripture, and studying what Adam was made of, we can see that he was made from the dust of the ground and then God breathed into him the breath of life and he became a living being. A human, then it is made of a physical body and the spirit that comes from God, so in the case of Jesus, Jesus’s body made of flesh received a spirit from God, so if we assume Jesus preexisted, where does he fit in in the body and spirit already made in the womb of Mary? Unless we say the spirit given to that body is Jesus, which that creates problems already. The angel Gabriel spoke of that child in the future tense, there was not a hint of a preexisting person coming down into Mary either. Furthermore, as we know, God is Spirit, according to Jesus, and God also never changes his nature, being human is a special creation of God, and to think God changes or can change his nature, is not scriptural or fits our understanding of who God is. Jesus, according to Paul in 1 Timothy 2:5, is a man, and so is the opinion of Peter as in Acts 2:14-36. Despite of a few verses which are used to prove Jesus’s divinity, Paul never refers to Jesus as God in any of his salutations in his letters. With respect to the Spirit, Paul in 1 Corinthians 2 10-11, shows us that the Spirit is not a separate person, but it is part of the Father, it comes from within the Father in a similar way with us, we have a spirit within us, God also has a Spirit within him called the Holy Spirit. So the model of God being a Trinity is incorrect and incoherent with the whole panoply of the Scriptures.
How important is the Trinity? I believe the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (Indeed not the word Trinity) are mentioned in the first 7 church creeds. Justification by faith is not mentioned in any of the early creeds. Hmmm?
The trinity is important for Satan. to make a Problem for the connention with GOD trough Jesus the Christ. The trinity is a Spirit of confusion. amd uncertainty
@@hommerecorder7003the only confusion is you trying to claim God let His church fall into complete heresy. The trinity is completely supported by scripture.
@@bruhmingo bud! you said "The trinity is completely supported by scripture." *can you show where Jesus himself teaches that God is 3 in 1 and all are equally divine?*
@@bruhmingothe church was falling into heresy during Paul’s time. And the Bible tells us that we will trade truth of God for a lie. There will be a falling away. False church, etc. not saying trinity is a heresy for sure or not, but that argument “God wouldn’t let his church” isn’t true because he literally warned them about it. Also there are stuff the church believes today that was deemed heretical back then and would have been kicked out or worse. Heresy became defined by human standards rather than God’s.
@@SeanMcDowell And WHY do we read the Following in Both, PSALM 8:5, and the N.T. Fulfillment....HEB.2:7-9; "You ( GOD) MADE him ( Jesus), a little LOWER than the Angels... and Crowned him with Glory and Honor." QUESTION; WHO, "Made" Whom? AND; WHO, "Crowned" Whom.....? And there are MANY more Scriptures that Debunk the, "Jesus is GOD," Crowd! Please, do NOT misunderstand me! This false, Pagan doctrine was Designed to DIVIDE the Churchworld Against itself! And That is PRE CISELY what it has DONE!
@@raygsbrelcik5578 If you check an interlinear, you will realize that "made ... lower" is one word. The word "made" is used in the same way as in the sentence "You made me happy". It is impossible for the verse to mean that the Son was created.
Siya ang nag-iisang Diyos mula sa umpisa ng lahat na nilikha at sangkatauhan hanggang sa katapusan. Siya ang nag-iisang Diyos ng mga propeta, nagkatawang-tao sa pamamagitan ni Hesus at ang Diyos na nananahan sa isip, damdamin at puso ng bawa't Kristiyano.
I viewed a presentation by John Henry and another gentleman who laughed when John Henry stated that you cannot be a Christian if you deny the Trinity. I cannot understand how, Berean Literal Bible. John 1:18 "No one has ever yet seen God. The only begotten God, the One being in the bosom of the Father, He has made Him known", seems to be overlooked. There are other explanations that, for me, make the notion of a trinity impossible to accept. I have been told to "Hush" when stating my understanding of what I read (by a Christian!). Not helpful and I think the subject is potentially harmful and divisive. Best wishes to all seekers of the true nature of God (Yahweh), his son (Christos) and that of the Holy Spirit.
Lol. Both of you struggled to explain explicitly what the doctrine is, because you know you will run into contradiction doing it explicitly, but you believe that one needs to believe that to be saved?? Lol
I have never read the bible through. I am really trying not to be mislead like I have been so many times. I don't like being put into a label or box. I just know I am a child of God. In your opinion, would it be better to read with prayer for clarity by myself or just pick a church to go to because they are a church and are the house of God and they know how to teach me? I hope this makes sense.
Hei, just begin by the gospels (the new testament). Then you can move to other parts. And when you have a relationship with the Creator, you can look for a church rear your house. I will be praying that the Holy Spirit Guide you along the way.
Start with genesis and keep going until you realize it's just mythological nonsense that primitive humans invented. I bet you don't make it to Numbers, the fifth book.
@justin10292000 I know you believe that Justin. Th same way 3 billion Muslims and Hindus on the planet today are convinced that their indoctrinated beliefs are true. You have been brainwashed, the same as them. Yahweh never existed. He was a human invention, the same as thousands of other gods humans invented to try and explain our existence.
@justin10292000 Yahweh was originally a second tier diety in the Canaanite pantheon from which Judaism evolved. The most high god was El. The Hebrew patriarchs worshipped El. Yahweh wasn't invented until the time of Moses. Exodus 6 2-3 NOG 2 Elohim spoke to Moses, “I am Yahweh. 3 I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as El Shadday, but I didn’t make myself known to them by my name, Yahweh. According to the myth, El and the goddess Asherah had many children. The sons of God (second tier dieties). Each son was given a nation to rule over. Chemosh-Moab, Baal- Canaan Milcom-Ammon, Qaus-Edom, Yahweh-Israel etc. Deuteronomy 32 8-9 ESV When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders[a] of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.[b] 9 But the Lord's portion is his people, Jacob his allotted heritage. Editors later changed sons of God to angels of God to hide the polytheism but the oldest manuscript found at the dead sea scrolls says sons of God. I hope this helps.
I needed this video. Thanks. I like the term Threeness of God and I have a suggestion for all those who think of God as Father (1) + Son (1) + HS(1) = 3 Persons...How about we say Father (1) x Son (1) x HS (1) = 1 Person
@ChristineLynnForTheWin Hi ChristineLynn. Thanks for the comment. I like the way you made your comment. It was gracious. I wish you could go a little further and help me understand how I might be heretical.
ONE GOD FATHER have his word - he create everything with his word and since he is almighty his word can become anything so it can become flesh - Son living word of God-I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God and God have his holy Spirit- what ever you ask in my name i will do it there is one mediator between God and man , so you pray to Father in heaven in Yeshua name
see, that's the thing about God. you got options. you can talk to him or his son or the other spirit that's with them but don't be confused: there is only 1 god. lol what a joke. these creatures are idolators
The Trinity for me is the hardest thing to understand.. when you read the bible, Jesus is praying to the father (third person) when Jesus gets baptised by John, As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”.. How are we supposed to get that all this is just one person. Is Jesus talking to himself, praising himself......... So difficult this to fathom in a logical sense, and like most, i do want to get this right, but i can see why some people can think this is some paganism creeping in to the early church... What makes more sense to me is, God is so divine, and outside time and space, not of this universe, that he needs divine holy Channels of communication, which is the Father, son and holy spirit... and again....... Jesus says the only way to God is through me, Jesus Christ. (God in the third person again) it just fries your brain the more you think about it, because all the evidence is there, that this trinity theory, in the way they want you to believe, is wrong, and made up, in a way, to stop it seeming like there is more than one God, so they have to come up with this convoluted idea, because without it, then we are getting into 3 Gods and paganism. We Accept Angels speaking for God, but they are not God, so why does Jesus have to be God, to be a representative of God, why cant he just be like Angel Gabriel who came to Mary. how can Jesus be God, when Jesus is sitting on the right side of God... Non of it makes any sense to me..
John 14:10-11 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. John 10:30 "30 I and my Father are one." John 14:20 "20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you." Matthew 3:16 "16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:" Colossians 1:19 "19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;" Colossians 2:9 "9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." Matthew 28:19 "19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" Or when God describes himself in plural in Genesis 1:26 Genesis 1:26 "26 And God said, Let us make man in our image..."
@@-Pierre Do you think all of these John verses tell us that Jesus is God? John “17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.”KJV Hmmmm. It says here that all of Jesus’ disciples are one with him and with the Father. And that they are in them. Does that mean all of Jesus’ disciples are God too? Be consistent. Colossians verses. 1Corinthians “6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?”KJV John “2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.”KJV Where does God dwell? In a temple right? Jesus is the temple of God. We are also the temple of God if we have the spirit of God dwelling within us. Again, according to your reading of scripture, all of Jesus’ disciples are God as well. A temple is the house God dwells in. The fullness of God dwells in his temple. God dwelled in the temple in Jerusalem, do you mistake that temple as being God as well? Again, be consistent. Mathew 28:29 what name do we baptize in? According to Acts, we baptize in the name of Jesus Christ. Acts “2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”KJV Is Gods name Jesus? No, Gods name is YHWH. Do Jesus and God have the same name? According to revelation they do not. Revelation “3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”KJV Another interesting tidbit regarding Acts 2:38. The Holy Spirit is a gift. Is a person a gift? Mathew 3:16. Ironically, this so called trinity proof text actually shows the moment that the word became flesh in a 30 year old man Jesus of Nazareth, absolutely destroying the trinitarian interpretation of John 1. Don’t take my word for it, see the testimony of the witness John provided in John 1. Genesis “1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.”KJV You might have wanted to read just one verse farther. God was not alone in heaven when he created man BY HIMSELF. There were also angels present. When you start using plural pronouns to try to prove a trinity, you are actually acknowledging the fact that you worship more than one god. Is that really what you want to do? Perhaps you should think it through.
@@driller7714 You present a fairly coherent case as to why the doctrine of the Trinity should be examined. Yet, I think you overreach in your assumptions and do not take the whole of Scripture into consideration. You would probably say the same thing about those, like myself, who believe the Trinity to be correct doctrine. To answer your critiques and questions: In John 17, what is the "one" that Jesus is speaking of? Is it one in being? If it is, then you can say that your interpretation is correct. However, if it is not, then you are simply reading your viewpoint into the text. The context would seem to point to a oneness of purpose - "so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me...I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them." John 17:23 and 26. This would support the Trinitarian doctrine of three persons, one being, and one in purpose. In Colossians, Jesus is the "firstborn of all creation." This is referring to his place as ruler of all creation, his pre-eminence as eternal God. "In him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell" and "For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily". Jesus is truly God and truly man. See also Philippians 2:5-11. Regarding the temple, the verse you quoted states that the Holy Ghost dwells in us. If God dwells in us and the Holy Ghost dwells in us, this would support the Trinity - that the Holy Ghost IS God. Acts 7:48-49 says, "Yet the Most High does not dwell in houses made by hands, as the prophet says, 'Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool. What kind of house will you build for me, says the Lord, or what is the place of my rest?'" Jesus's body was the temple of God - as the Colossians and Philippians passages demonstrate - precisely because He was literally God made flesh (John 1:14). You could also reference Matthew 1:23, Isaiah 9:6, Romans 8:3. I assume you mean Matthew 28:19 - and we baptize "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." The Greek here supports the oneness of being and the separate persons. Basically, it is three "whos" (persons) and one "what" (being). Also, the "in" can be translated as "into", which would support the oneness of purpose from John 17 that Jesus prayed for his followers. This would also clarify the Acts 2:38 statement. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through him. (John 14:6) Thus, being baptized in the name of Jesus is being baptized INTO the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (God). Is God's name Jesus? Technically, no, the name of the Son is Yeshua. The name that God gives Moses is YHWH, or I AM. Yet, Jesus says in John 8:58: "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." He also says this in John 18:5 and 8. The term in Greek is "ego eimi" - this is how the Septuagint translates Exodus 3:14. See also in John 10:30: "I and the Father are one." The response by the Jews in John 8 and 10 is telling - they pick up stones to stone Jesus. Why? John 10:33: the Jews answered him, "It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God." The Jewish people recognized immediately what Jesus claimed - that he WAS God. Not a representative or a creation of God, but the same being. Revelation 3:12 - what is the new name? Revelation 19:11-13 would seem to answer that question: "Faithful and True" and "The Word of God." Thus, in Revelation 3:12, those who keep his word through patient endurance and hold fast to what they have will be called Faithful and True. I would not call Matthew 3:16-17 a "proof-text" for the Trinity, but it does seem to show the difference in person between the Father and the Son and the Spirit. As to the Holy Spirit being a gift and your question "Can a person be a gift?" - the answer quite clearly is yes, a person can be a gift. In Ephesians 4:11-12, people as gifts are given to the church "And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ..." The Holy Spirit is God - clearly seen in Acts 5:3-4. Additionally, the Holy Spirit is a person - he calls people and has work for them to do (Acts 13:1-3) is one example. As to Matthew "absolutely destroying the trinitarian interpretation of John 1" - I am not sure how you come to that conclusion. Jesus is God, he is co-eternal and co-equal with God. The Greek structure of John 1:1 makes that abundantly clear. Genesis 1:26-27 - the word for God in all of Genesis 1 is elohim. It is a plural form of the word eloah. Now, compare to Deuteronomy 4:35: YHWH is haelohim. Therefore, the plural form of God in Genesis 1, elohim, is also YHWH according to Deuteronomy 4:35. Indeed, this verse states that there is no other God beside him. How can a plural (elohim) also be a singular (YHWH)? The doctrine of the Trinity answers this question. God is one in being and three in person. Look at Isaiah 42:8: "I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to anyone else, nor share my praise with carved idols." Yet Jesus receives worship from the disciples (John 20:24-29; Matthew 14:33 and 28:9). In Revelation 19:9-10, John falls down to worship the angel, but is told "You must not do that!...Worship God." If it is wrong to worship anyone but God and God himself says that He will not share His glory with another, how can Jesus say "glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed."? (John 17:5) The only way this can happen is if Jesus IS God. And the doctrine of the Trinity presents this view, which is coherent with the whole teaching of Scripture. Is God addressing the angels when He speaks of creating man in Genesis 1:26? Nowhere in the Bible do we see the angels taking part in creation - Job 38 references them shouting for joy at the foundation of the earth, but they are not part of the creation process. Additionally, if God is a singular person, then He could not have had attributes clearly associated with God, especially love. "God does not live in temples made by human hands, nor is He served by humans, as if He needed anything." Acts 17:24-25. Yet, if God was singular, the only way He could love would be to create - which would mean that He did need something from humans. This, too, points to the triune nature of the Godhead.
Not adding anything of value here other than to say, you are not alone in this brain understanding disconnect. I’ve always believed the Trinity and it wasn’t until recently when trying to figure out how to pray to God the Father as Christ gives the example, that I pray to God the Father, through Christ the Son in the Holy Spirit. A hierarchy always comes to my mind… the God the Father is the Almighty, Christ the Son is the Savior, Messiah, ordained and given Authority by the Father and the Holy Spirit is His omnipresence aspect.. we’re trying to describe a concept that is beyond space and time with words that are limited by the constructs He ordained. Is it enough to say the Christ is my Savior, sent by God the Father and once you accept His salvation, He provides the Holy Spirit to seal and direct us? Do we have to understand the Trinity to be saved? I’m not sure… if God the Father gives Christ the Son Authority, it’s His to give anyway, so that makes Christ God anyway. I’m not smart enough to know how that might break things down further in scripture and possibly cause more questions or contradictions. Trinity to me, is just the word used for explaining how the Three have all Authority and are holy, worthy of praise and worship. Maybe in there we lose the personhood of the Holy Spirit to just sound like an entity, I don’t believe that. All this to say, people have been discussing this deeply for centuries, there must be some depth to arguments we do not agree with that we could understand why/how they can think that way. Maybe this is an in house discussion that doesn’t necessarily take someone out of the realm of salvation? I’ve been a Christian for almost 25 years, the doc of Trinity has always been difficult to understand, but clearly there is a relationship between the Three that is above all. I am a Trinitarian but only in as much as I can’t explain the Godness of Father, Son and Holy Spirit in any other way that does not devalue Son and Holy Spirit. Clearly, Jesus is Savior - worthy of worship!!! - clearly the Holy Spirit is holy and even the “unforgivable sin” relates to blaspheming the Holy Spirit, so He is essential too. Remember that God is just but merciful, this is important absolutely, but will He have mercy in not fully understanding the relationship between the Three? I believe so.
I have a question for all 'trinitarians'; When John said "We had a view of his Glory ,a Glory belonging to an 'only begotten from a Father" ( John 1:14). So who was this? was it 'God's only begotten Son who had come down from heaven from his Father? Or was it just a materialised human form called 'Jesus'?
Thanks so much for this. Have always had a nagging longing to better understand the Trinity. This has helped greatly, although my head is still spinning a bit. BUT…I do feel spurred on to pray for understanding and research deeper. Thanks again.
BASIC SCRIPTURAL TRUTH TO HELP HONEST-HEARTED ONES SEE PAST THE MATRIX OF THIS LYING WORLD THAT WE LIVE IN THE UNIVERSAL FAMILY COMPRISES OF ALL INTELLIGENT BEINGS CREATED IN THE IMAGE OF GOD: 2 CORINTHIANS 4:4 GOD’S FIRST CREATION IS MENTIONED IN PROVERBS 8:22-36 WHICH REVEALS WHAT IS TAUGHT IN COLOSSIANS 1:15-17 THIS IS CONFIRMED IN THE WORDING OF JOHN 3:16 WHERE THE TERM “ONLY BEGOTTEN SON” IS USED TO DESCRIBE THE ONLY ONE WHO WAS DIRECTLY CREATED BY GOD AS ATTESTED TO IN REVELATION 3:14 AFTER JEHOVAH GOD CREATED HIS FIRST SON THE REST OF THAT WOULD BE CREATED CAME INTO EXISTENCE BY MEANS OF JEHOVAH GOD BEING THE GREAT ARCHITECT AND HIS FIRST CREATION BECOMING THE MASTER BUILDER AS EXPLAINED IN JOHN 5:19 AFTER THE DIRECT CREATION OF THE “ONLY BEGOTTEN SON” CREATED BY GOD TOGETHER THEY PRODUCED BROTHERS FOR THE FIRST SON TO HAVE AS STATED IN COLOSSIANS 1:16 THUS CAUSING JEHOVAH GOD TO BECOME THE FATHER TO A GREAT MULTITUDE OF SONS BEFORE THE CREATION OF THE PHYSICAL UNIVERSE JOB 38:7 ALL THE SONS OF GOD ARE LITERALLY CREATED IN THE SAME NATURAL SPIRITUAL ESSENCE OF GOD’S IMAGE: HEBREWS 1:7; HEBREWS 12:29 WHEN THE CONTEXT OF CREATION IS KEPT IN PLACE WE CAN SEE WITH OUR MIND’S EYE WHO IT WAS THAT THE CREATOR JEHOVAH GOD WAS TALKING TO IN GENESIS 1:26 AS EXPLAINED IN JOHN 1:3,4 IT IS BECAUSE GOD’S FIRST CREATION TOOK ON FLESH THAT HE WOULD ALSO BECOME BROTHERS WITH: JOHN 1:12 THE FACT THAT JESUS CAN AND DOES HAVE BROTHERS IS WHAT PROVES THAT JESUS IS ALSO A CREATION OF GOD THE FATHER OF ALL CREATION AS JESUS SELF PROCLAIMS: REVELATION 3:14 BECAUSE THE HUMAN SECTOR OF THE UNIVERSAL FAMILY WAS STEERED INTO TAKING A WRONG TURN THE FATHER OF ALL INTELLIGENT CREATION BEING A JUST GOD TOOK ACTION TO MELT OUT JUSTICE BEING THAT ONE OF HIS SONS TURNED INTO A TRADER AND TOOK TO MISLEADING OTHERS JEHOVAH GOD AGAIN DELEGATED TO HIS FIRSTBORN SON: 1 JOHN 3:8 AS SET PERFECT JUSTICE: DEUTERONOMY 19:21 CALLS FOR AN EXACT EQUAL VALUE: 1 CORINTHIANS 15:45 THEREFORE SINCE IT IS THE WICKED ANGELIC SONS OF GOD THAT HAVE BEEN CAUSING HARM TO THE HUMAN FAMILY JUSTICE MERITS THAT A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF HUMANS BE GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY TO TURN THE TABLE: 1 CORINTHIANS 6:3 BECAUSE THE SON OF GOD WHO IS ALSO THE CHEIF AGENT OF LIFE WAS SENT TO EARTH TO BECOME A HUMAN - HE TOO EXPERIENCED DEATH BY MEANS OF THE ONE WHO CAUSED DEATH TO ENTER INTO THE WORLD: GENESIS 3:15; HEBREWS 2:9,10 JEHOVAH GOD BEING THE CREATOR/FATHER OF ALL INTELLIGENT CREATURES THAT WERE CREATED IN HIS IMAGE IS SEEING TO IT THAT JUSTICE WILL BE CARRIED OUT BY MEANS OF: EPHESIANS 1:10 THEREFORE JESUS AND THE LIMITED AMOUNT OF HIS BROTHERS WILL GO TO HEAVEN TO MAKE UP THE ADMINISTRATION OF THE HEAVENLY KINGDOM/GOVERNMENT THAT WILL BRING ABOUT JUSTICE FOR ALL: REVELATION 14:3 WILL RESTORE THE PERFECT CONDITIONS ON EARTH THAT WAS GIVEN TO THE FIRST HUMAN BEINGS: ROMANS 8:19 JESUS SUFFERED DEATH WHICH IS SOMETHING THAT THE CREATOR COULD NEVER EXPERIENCE THIS IS WHY JESUS CAN HAVE BROTHERS: HEBREWS 2:11,14 THE AUTHORITY OF JESUS BROTHERS: REVELATION 5:10; 2:26,27 AT THE COMPLETION OF JESUS MISSION: 1 CORINTHIANS 15:24-28 THE TEACHINGS OF THE TRINITY DIMINISH THE FATHER AND THE SON BY EQUATING ALMIGHTY GODSHIP TO THE SON WHICH EXCLUSIVELY BELONGS TO THE FATHER AS THE ONLY UNCREATED BEING: 1 JOHN 2:22
@@findtruth5329while I don't believe the Trinity, you have a very perverted view of Scripture, and especially what God did for us through his Son Jesus Christ. Jesus laid his life down for us, the most selfless act of love, and he did it while we were the enemies of God.
@@SmallFridgeMinority The irony of you calling my wording "perverted" when this is literally the mainstream Christian doctrine. You'll need another 20 years before we can actually have a meaningful discussion about this and in all cases, in no way is Christianity or the bible endorsable by a thinking human-being. Jesus/God needs to die to save us from himself/themselves? So, no actually a God of mercy but a literal transaction and payment for the fact that God made us moral creatures and Adam made his first mistake? You don't realize that this is pure Pagan idolatry, human sacrifice and vicarious atonement (all Pagan ideologies). Islam is the truth and this is clearly falsehood. Even the name Jesus is false. The name Christian is false (since they're actually Paulians) and the names stamped to the gospels are also all false. This is so obvious for people that aren't going to hell.
It's nice to have intellectual schmucks, like these two, in our corner...it's the truth, and should be available, accessible, and understandable to all. God Bless You All In Jesus Name.
as mentioned in history, the trinity was formulated in its current form AFTER 400 YEARS - acc to Britannica - The Council of Nicaea in 325 stated the crucial formula for that doctrine in its confession that the Son is “of the same substance [homoousios] as the Father,” even though it said very little about the Holy Spirit. Over the next half century, St. Athanasius defended and refined the Nicene formula, and, by the end of the 4th century, under the leadership of St. Basil of Caesarea, St. Gregory of Nyssa, and St. Gregory of Nazianzus (the Cappadocian Fathers), the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.
I LOVE this. I grew up in a cult that denied the Trinity. It called it a "doctrine of demons" and that it was polytheism. Since I understood it (to the limited degree of human comprehension) I fell in love with the Trinity. The way you did it is the way I did it! 1. There is ONE God. 2. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. 3. They are not each other. And I do the same thing with honing in on the part with which they disagree. I like how James White puts it -- there is one What (Being): God, and there are three whos. So it's not like we're saying 1 = 3, or 1 + 1+ 1 = 1 as we are straw manned at times, because the numbers on both side of the equal side do not represent the SAME THING. I also agree that we should stay away from "object lessons" (states of matter, triangles, eggs, etc.) because they ALL fall short and fail in some way, and that's a GOOD thing. This is GOD. He is like nothing in all creation. He is unique and set apart. He is other.
Special pleading 101. 3 =/= 1 3 = 1 but the equal sign doesn’t count Question for you: if God is unique and set apart, then how can he interact in this world that is not part of him? And if he is part of nature but set apart from us then why did he make us “in his image”? No one has ever been able to tell me what parts of humanity are godly and what parts are ‘set apart’ from god…
@@logan666 I'd reread my comment, because you are committing a Straw Man fallacy regarding the 3 =/= 1, etc. You have to respond to my actual argument. You are set apart from a computer you may build, but you can certainly interact with it despite being outside of it. We are distinct from animals in that we have the capacity to reason, as God does with volition, as God has. We are moral beings, while animals are amoral. So in some ways we are like God (made in His image) in ways that nothing else in all creation is. But the ways in which God is set apart from us is almost infinite. He is holy, righteous, perfectly good, omniscient, omnipotent, Spirit, etc. We are none of those things.
@@biblicalworldview1 Exegetical Hermeneutics are required to determine Biblical Truth, my friend. GOD is ONE ( SPIRIT.). HE IS ONE ( LORD). Jesus, on the other hand-----Is NOT a, Spirit. GOD bless.
And this is why I'm an atheist, I hate intellectual dishonesty and the mental gymnastics it takes to create pseudo intelectual apologetics for religious claims.
The concept of trinity cannot make you an atheist. You are an atheist if you believe there is no God regardless of the eschatology. And if we will be intellectually honest, you know that is correct. God bless
More mental gymnastics from Christians, The trinity doctrine was concocted by the church fathers just think which of the previous prophets worshipped a triune God answer - NONE
What about Isaiah? “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” Isaiah 9:6 ESV This verse at least reveals that Isaiah prophesied that “Mighty God” would be a child given.
I also like to visualize Moses speaking to God in Exodus 3:6 (NIV): Then he said, “I am the God of your father,[a] the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God. God is there, not in Human form, but as flames of fire, a burning spirit. Clearly God is not isolated to only that space and time, God was everywhere, yet had a presence there with Moses.
As one who identifies as trinitarian, I will admit there are challenges. Which version/model of the Trinity do we subscribe to? To take Dean’s advice, look at the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy’s entry on the Trinity… it could be the case that we’re conflating several versions/models of the Trinity together. On that note, it’s important to focus on some differences. There are “classical/historical” trinitarians who say the Trinity only has one will. To teach more than one will is to risk teaching tri-theism, in their view. On the other hand, we have “social-hierarchical” trinitarians who claim that the Son is eternally subject to the Father’s authority. But the “classical/historical” pushback is that eternal subjection demands more than one will within the Godhead, which goes against the “classical/historical” view of there being one will in the Trinity. As well, how do we define “person”? Do we take the social-hierarchical route to say that the family unit, the Genesis 2:24 model is the best analogy for the three persons? (While maintaining that no analogy is perfect.) Or do we take the “classical/historical” route to avoid using human-person analogies - to instead emphasize that “person” is more like a “subsistence” or, as Boethius phrased it, “individual substance of a rational nature”? (And then, how do we even define such terms, like “subsistence”?) The more I dive in, the more I feel… dispirited.
Please stop 🛑. Don’t dive too far in without knowing how to ask the Holy Spirit. The three aspects/persons of The One God always point back to the same one Will. They always support each other’s testimony and never divert to lead one astray. With the subsistence,God being infinitely powerful Omnipotent, has the ability to not only sustain and support himself as one but as the Son Jesus Christ, and as The Holy Spirit. Please don’t keep asking SOO many questions at one time without stopping to wait for An Answer or Two. There is a song that literally states “ I’m going to wait for An Answer from you.” I fervently pray that you will not allow the questions to throw you further down the rabbit hole of infinite questions. Please let me know if this helps you at all and when you slow down I’m sure it will help as well.❤️🙏🏽💯
You are overcomplicating and overthinking this my friend. I can explain the Trinity via a simply demonstration. Since the essence of all three are exactly the same, it leads all three to the same will, yes Jesus wanted to rid himself of his cup (death) if there was another way, but he still yielded to the Father's will, so he trusted the Father and thus the Fathers will was his will. Jesus had to overcome the flesh also, thus he needed to pray. Jesus was led into the desert by the Spirit, when he denied Satan over a period of time he came out of the desert in the *Power of the Spirit* As per the Trinity: Lets take a three (3) trillion gallon reservoir of water, it has the exact same chemical makeup throughout in every ounce of water (PHD levels). Likewise the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are ONE in Essence and Likeness, they are Love, Hope, Joy, Peace Kindness etc. etc. So, take 100 gallons (Jesus) of that water and pour it over your head, you will be soaking wet but A-OK. Again, take another 100 gallons of water (Holy Spirit) and pour that over your head also, again, you will no doubt be soaked, but not harmed in the least. NOW...........take the whole three (3) trillion gallons (God the Father) of water and pour that over your head and you will surely die !! Only God the Father has the Abundance of the Glory. Hence men could look upon Jesus and live, the Holy Spirit lives in our hearts and we are not harmed, hence we receive God's Peace, Joy, Love Hope etc. etc. but if we actually looked upon the Glory of God the Father we would die, like the 70 did who looked into the Ark of the Covenant, Moses saw His hinder parts and glowed it is said. Since they are all one in Spirit, they all have the exact same mind/will, but their offices are three different offices. We have God the Father, God the Redeemer and God the Helpmate. I understand you problem is via the will, but Love, Hope, Peace, Joy always has the will of perfection. There is no other choices for all three, when that happens you get Lucifer rebelling.
@@MrRondonmon Not really. This is basic stuff. Ironically, the complicated part rests within the historical/classical view of personhood, whereas the social-hierarchical view may be guilty of simplifying too much. I did focus on the “will” part , but there’s the issue of “mind” as well. How do we say there are three distinct “persons”, and yet only one mind as the “historical/classical” view teaches? It just seems like trinitarians struggle with a fine line between: - teaching modalism as to erase any real distinction on one hand - or teaching too much distinction between the “persons” - leaning towards “tri-theism” on the other. It just seems like there’s always a tension. As for the subjection of will (Luke 22:42), the classical/historical view teaches that Christ has two wills - one human will, one divine will. That it’s the human will that’s subject to the Father, not the one divine will possessed by the other two persons. That Christ has two wills is labeled “chalcedonian” - the Orthodox view of Christology, which many, if not most lay-trinitarians are not aware of.
Really enjoyed this discussion and will be sharing it with others. As for explaining the trinity to others, I found the best analogy which is not a perfect one is that... God is the divine "family" name, and the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the only members of that "family". It is similar to if only myself, my brother, and sister were the only three people left in my family. Our family name is "Skelton" but only three people make up that family name now. Like I said, it is not a perfect analogy but it seems to get the point across that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are NOT three Gods but rather "family" God consists of three divine beings! The ONE TRUE GOD, consists of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit all interacting with each other, of the same mind and purpose, but yet, with their own unique function within the Godhead. I hope that helps with some in grasping the trinityish nature of God. ______________________ Though I don't feel it is a salvation issue, but rather a scripture technicality issue, one thing Dr Sanders stated was that Jesus has "existed always as the Son of the Father, Eternally generated or begotten second person" (about 17:32-17:58 in the video). If I understand those statements correctly, he is saying that Jesus existed as the Son of God prior to Him taking on flesh. Unless I missed a passage or more, I can't really find that idea from scripture. However, I can find that He existed prior to taking on flesh... > As God the Word: John 1:1-14, > In the form of God: Philippians 2:5-8 > As LORD GOD: Hebrews 1:8-12 > In a higher state than the angels: Hebrews 2:9-18 > As the Alpha and the Omega, the Almighty: Revelation 1:8, 17 > As I AM: John 8:58-59 There are other scriptures that show how He was known prior to taking on flesh and I can't find any that say He was known as the Son of God prior to that time. There are O.T. prophecies of Him becoming and called the Son of God but that is not seeing at the time the prophecy was made HE IS THE SON OF GOD at that time. From my understanding of scripture, Jesus was known as all of the above and by other names or designations but then He humbled Himself, placing Himself in subjection to God the Father, the Ancient of Days, the Most High God, and took on flesh. At that point, He fulfilled the prophecies about becoming and being called the Son of God, the beloved Only Begotten of the Most High God. Though God the Father, the Most High God, declared Jesus at His baptism and mount of transfiguration event as His beloved Only Begotten Son, it was through Jesus resurrection that He was confirmed beyond doubt that HE IS the Son of God (Romans 1:4) and will now forever be known as such. In other words, though all three of the Godhead knew He would become and be called the Son of God, He did not actually take on that designation and become such until He took on flesh and blood. That is how I understand it all.
The Trinitarian Doctrine has really fascinated me lately, as well as the Resurrection, as well as...pretty much everything else! That being said, this interview was really insightful, Sean. I think the concept of the Trinity will always be a topic of debate. It's a very complicated thing for people to conceptualize, myself included. The way that I see it now, as a believer in the Trinity, is this: if God is the perfect being, then I should expect several aspects of His essence and nature to be beyond me. That doesn't mean I won't try to understand it, but I have to be okay with the fact that I won't get to "figure it all out" if that makes sense. Since God is the perfect being, then why would it be out of the realm of possibility to consider that He could be one essence with 3 persons? I think this is where people get caught up again. As humans, each individual is one person, as far as we currently know! But if we base our premise on solely a human perspective, then we've already forgotten his "beyondness." Anyway, thanks so much! I'm sure you get this all the time, but your content has really lit a fire in me to study apologetics and theology, and to really start looking more closely at my faith and why I believe what I do. Who knows? Perhaps one day I'll be in one of your classes! Take care!
The trinity is the test strip for Christian indoctrination. If you can stifle cognitive dissonance enough to believe that MONOtheism can be carried out by 3 gods, then you can be manipulated to believe anything. It’s actually fairly ingenious if your goal is control. (Which, if it’s not, why have sermons at all? Just read your Bible, don’t listen to anyone else interpret for you)
@@jperez7893 OH, but there IS a, "DEBATE!" The, "Athanasian Creed," is Not BIBLICAL-----It was Crafted by the Corrupt Roman Catholic religion! The term, "trinity' didn't even EMERGE onto the Churchworld until the Late 2nd--Early, 3rd Centuries. Historical FACT. AND; The term trinity is found NOWHERE in the HEBREW, or, GREEK Languages. Amen.
This man Fred was very “unboring.” I liked this discussion. Weird that it popped up today. I am co-teaching 5-7 year olds on the “ABC’s of God.” This next Sunday we are teaching on the Trinity. I was wanting to listen to something to add to my understanding as I prepare. And this popped up! Fred, how would you explain the Trinity to 5-7 year olds?? I have some idea based on listening to this video….but I’d love to hear your exact wording.
At 29 minutes the guest says that all church fathers say that the trinity is straight from the Bible. Is this really the case? "When one does speak of unqualified Trinitarianism, one has moved from the period of Christian origins to, say the last quadrant of the 4th century ... Herein lies the difficulty. On the one hand, it was the dogmatic formula "one God in Three Persons" that would henceforth for more than 15 centuries structure and guide the Trinitarian essence of the Christian message ... On the other hand, the formula itself does not reflect the immediate consciousness of the period of origins; it was the product of 3 centuries of doctrinal development." - New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. XIV, p.295 "The trinity of God is defined by the church as the belief that in God are three persons who subsist in one nature. The belief as so defined was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly and formally a biblical belief. The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of 'person' and 'nature' which are G[ree]k philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible. The trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as 'essence' and 'substance' were erroneously applied to God by some theologians." - Dictionary of the Bible, John L. McKenzie, 1965 p. 899. "This does not mean however, that we consider the traditional Scripture proof text method as mandatory or even possible. In the sense of definition the doctrive of Trinity is stated nowhere in Scripture." - The Encyclopedia of the Lutheran Church, 1965, vol. III, p. 2414
What a gross twisting of quotes. All these say is the obvious, that the word and definition of trinity are not explicitly stated in scripture. What the guest said is that all the fathers used scripture to support the trinity, and that the trinity IS foundationally based in scripture. This is most certainly true. How dare you have the arrogance to think the God would let his church commit complete and total blasphemy for 2000 years.
@@nikkilengyel Part of explaining sounding complex is to answer questions. I didn't realize if I didn't explicitly explain that, some of the readers would think I meant an hour monologue.
Amen, brother! Jesus never seemed to be able to explain this “important” doctrine. He spent a lengthy amount of time, in the sermon on the mount, to teach us how to live, yet he couldn't spend even ten minutes to reveal to teach about the trinity to Jews who never heard of it, even telling a Samaritan that her people don't know what they worship, but that we Jews know what we worship - even though the Jews didn't know anything about a trinity.
@@raygsbrelcik5578God is one God Humans try to put God into our realm and use human concepts to attribute Him with such as unitarianism. If God is superior in all ways, then multi-personal is the way to go
I think C.S. Lewis did great work in trying to explain the unexplainable - that God is an extra-dimensional being. His is not part of our universe and is not subject to its limitations. Things work differently in that dimension (he IS the dimension, in a sense.) Lewis described the difference between a first-dimensional line, a 2nd-dimensional square, and a 3rd-dimensional cube - the line from the first dimension is also in the second dimension, but it works and relates differently and creates a new and different thing, which is ONE square. The ONE square from the second dimension also exists in the third dimension but combines and functions differently to create ONE cube. In our dimension of time and space one person/being can have multiple roles or modes, as described in the video - but generally, they can only do or be one thing at a TIME. Yahweh exists as a single being that manifests as 3 persons that can function in the 3 roles independently and simultaneously without ever a splitting or having a separation of essence, which is apparently fully possible outside of our dimension. In the end though, illustrations do always fall short, but that does not make them less true - I scientist can write out a formulaic equation on a board that is a true and accurate analysis of how gravity works, but the equation on the board, though true, is not ACTUALLY gravity.
I'm curious why Sr. Sanders said a person should pray mostly to God, sometimes to Jesus, and it's ok or not unbiblical to pray to the Holy Spirit. Since the Trinity is One person, why should or does it matter which name one uses?
The way I see it is like a programer creating a metaverse. The programer is outside of the metaverse but interacts with the metaverse through code and through his avatar. The Father is the programer, the Word/ Spirit is the code, the avatar is the Son. The programer can only be seen in the metaverse through his avatar and by the works he does through code. So this is why Jesus says if you see me you see the Father and that his works are by the Father or Holy Ghost. I believe Jesus is the Father and the Holy Ghost and the Son, if you are interacting with Jesus or are face to face with him, you are in the presence of the Father in his visible form and all his works are done by his Spirit. This is why if you don't know Jesus you can't know the Father because he is the Father in the flesh. Scripture also says the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, just as the Father speaks the Word and Jesus' body is the Spirit made flesh. I hope this makes sense to some people. I pray to the Lord Jesus and know that my prayers go to the Father.
I like what you’re attempting here. You’ve already noticed mine, so you already know the difference. The reason I would go with an AI and subprocesses is that the Avatar of a programmer is an echo of the programmer (or User if we wanted to harken back to Tron). But the avatar of the Programmer is separate from the avatar. They aren’t the same substance, thus creating multiple gods. The self-contained subprocesses avatar of an AI that runs the meta verse is still the same substance with its subprocess, thus you can have three “persons” or as I like to say “loci of thought” but still only one being.
I’m actually impressed with these metaphors. I feel like you’ve gotten the closest to a coherent idea of the trinity compared to many others. My only gripe would be that in all the examples above, the ‘father’ God contains more information than the others. The ‘son’ and ‘spirit’ are sub populations of the father still. In these examples Jesus wouldn’t be God, he would be an avatar in gods control, or a sub process of god. You wouldn’t say that my hand and I are two separate things with the same substance (me). This is all an exercise in futility, as the trinity is inherently incoherent.
@@logan666 Well, a subprocesses could have access to all the information that the central process has or it can have less at the discretion of the central process so long as the central process left that door open and didn’t partition it’s infinite hard drive. The subprocess could be limited without infringing upon the central AI, the way Jesus was voluntarily limited. And I would say that your hand is the same substance as you. It wouldn’t be a separate person. Unless your hand had its own brain the way stegosaurus is said to have a brain in its tail. I think one of the amusing aspects of the infinite AI analogy is that if you split the processing power of an infinite AI in half each process has infinite processing power. You can make half the first again to make a third process and they will all three have infinite processing power. And while we say that the Trinity is incomprehensible by it’s nature, I’m not sure that’s true. Maybe we have just never had an information based universe before to analogize from. Or maybe I just don’t know when to quit. Either way.
@@AaronOfJerusalemAndAthens Jesus explained who God wss bv14 john 18:37"You are a king, then!" said Pilate. Jesus answered, "You say that I am a king. In fact, the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."
If we are to be genuine truth seakers Sean and ask all those questions you did at the begining, why just the a trinitarian scholar on the show? Seems a bit disingenuous. The truth (John 14:6) deserves better.
Gentlemen----How could Jesus ( literally) be GOD, when everything Jesus HAD, was, "GIVEN" to him? And YES...,I have the Scriptures to back that UP! With utmost respect.
Pharisees, making the trinity a doctrinal requirement for salvation... So the thief on the cross gets a pass...but everyone after , no.....please. The audacity of man to place this as a requirement, when the first hundred years didn't "articulate" this doctrine.
Each person will be judged according to the degree of Revelation he or she had. The thief on the cross had so much time left to figure things out, and he did. Most of us have decades. Let's be faithful and keep (and not deny) that amount of truth that was revealed to us.
There's a degree to where human understanding of this is limited. However which of the tenets of the doctrine can you reject and still worship the God of the Bible? 1. There is ONE God. 2. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. 3. Neither is the other. (They personally relate to one another.) Maybe you can make a case for #3 if someone just doesn't understand it, but if they reject it, they are worshiping a god that is different than God's revelation in the Bible. The thief on the cross didn't have access to the New Testament.
It’s not only the word “Trinity” which is not in Scripture. The concept that God is three persons in one being is completely absent from Scripture. In order to come up with the Trinity, you have to take a verse from here and a verse from there and put them together to make a theory. The problem is that no New Testament writer ever talked about this idea. There are only verses that seem to hint at it. That is not nearly enough to consider something a Scriptural doctrine, much less central to biblical faith! Just stick with biblical terms and you won’t end up with man’s teaching. Remember, Jesus told Peter that it was not flesh and blood that revealed who he is, but the Father in heaven. And what did the Father reveal? That Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of the Living God (see Matthew 16).
Thing is-----Trinitarians disagree on their definition of this trinity. AND...,They cannot effectively DESCRIBE it using Biblical language ONLY. They have to continually use METAPHOR in an effort to attempt validation.
Exactly. And they ALWAYS contradict themselves. Trinity "expert" James White (who sounds unconvinced himself at times) said he is certain that "most" Trinitarians are actually Modalists. That's the kind of confusion that typically stems from doctrines of MEN.
The Church kidnapped the Jewish Scriptures and translated it into Greek and made a new Christological order, to make it go over easy from Malachi to Matthew.
@TheChristianLife And one more ignorant christian. Yes, it is very true that christians do not agree on the trinity. One rather famous example of a christian who was an antitrinitarian is Isaac Newton. "That's not true it doesn't matter what you believe not all people that believe that can explain it just as well."
If a person rejects the actual Trinity, they reject God as He is and therefore cannot be a Christian. It's okay to be confused in some way or not able to fully grasp it, because we're talking about the infinite God revealing Himself to finite and limited humans.
@@velkyn1 Then Newton was not a Christian, but a theist. There's a difference between not fully grasping it, and actually rejecting Jesus' divine nature.
Modalism doesn’t explain the biblical data. When Jesus was baptized how could the Father appear as a voice from the heavens and the Holy Spirit appear as a dove? Matthew 3:16-17. Modalism doesn’t account for bilocation.
@@TheContrarian32 Not at all. God the Son, the Memra, is an emanation of God. Where was God when he was on the mercy seat? Was no one running the universe? Surely not. As an emanation of God the Father, the Word and the Spirit of God can appear on earth while God the father remains enthroned in heaven. There are two rules of doping out the Trinity. You can’t split the being or “essences” and you can’t collapse the loci of thought, ie confuse the persons. God can have emanations and those emanations can even have a perspective and thought process and there not be more than one God.
@@ianmartinesq Trinitarians misrepresent the monarchian proposing that we teach a sequential modalism ( That is when he is Father he cannot be Son, and that God must change from one mode to another). THIS is all falsehood. There is even no evidence that the Monarchian teachers of Old ( Sabellius, Praxeaus etc) and the Oneness teachers of Today. DAVID Bernard, STEVEN Ritchie etc teach a sequential modalism. We believe God is Omnipresent, and he can be Father and Son at the same time. JUST as Israel had the presence of God as the pillar of cloud and fire in their camp and the same time as God reigning in his throne in heaven. The Baptism issue is easily settled with an understanding of the omnipresence of God. I challenge any Trinitarian to provide any first source historical quote that the Modalist of yesterday and today teach a sequential modalism.
@@samuellundin5328 can you clearly and distinctly distinguish your position from what you term the Trinitarian position? But I think you mean the Athanasian position. But before I discuss misrepresentations or misunderstandings or whatever, I would first like to be clear on what you say your position is.
I'd like to hear Fred's justification for saying the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, rather than from the Father. If anyone has any recommendations for an explanation of the Western Church's argument for adding the Son to that part of the Nicene Creed, I'd like to read it. I don't have a commitment to either side of the Filioque question but would like to look into it. In any case, I found it a bit frustrating that Fred took a position on that issue without explaining or justifying his reason for taking that position.
Jesus says he will send his spirit in Luke 24. This has typically been the church’s defense. Fred doesn’t have to justify the statement, because the topic is not about the sending of the Holy Spirit and the discussion of the Filioque is a niche Christian disagreement.
The only question I do have is Why is this doctrine not written in Bible, why did Jesus never say that I, the Father and the Holy Spirit are God, if it is the most important doctrine in the scriptures, why did Jesus never make it clear?
Just ask one question : what's the difference between a person and a God in the trinity? and no one will be able to answer you, that's mean they used falsely the name person to not say God, which make it 3 Gods which is polytheism!!!!
So sad. Did you even listen to the post!! So so sad. So so so much you need to learn about being a disciple of wisdom as the Bereans were. Humility is the key to understanding.
@@paulenzor6993 So since I'm right and you can't say anything against that you just say so so sad since it doesn't agree with your brainwashing. How pathetic! I assume you also worship Paul using Jesus' name in vain.
John 8:58 Jesus calls himself the I AM and the Jewish crowd picks up stones to stone him, doing exactly what the OT commands them to do to someone who claims to be God. That crowd knew EXACTLY what he was saying, and they'd disagree with your statement.
Simply not true. The eyewitness testimony presented in the gospels is clear about that. Jesus made clear claims that he is the God of Israel, and his followers understood this, and his enemies understood this.
Trinity seems to be trending and continues to confuse: so here’s an analogy by way of explanation. Water is H20. Ice is H20. Steam is H20. None of these have the same form but all share the same compound. Father, Son & Holy Ghost. None share the same form but all are God.
Can the same molecule of water be in THREE DIFFERENT PLACES at the same time ??! Oh, so you want to use Physics when convenient and ignore Physics when convenient. LOL
Amazing...at 57:50...."praying to the Holy Spirit is not unbiblical but there are no examples in scripture for it." WOW...to me it sounds as if it is unbiblical if it is not in the scriptures.
He said it’s “not unbiblical in the deeper sense”, meaning it is not contrary to scripture or against the teachings of scripture, meaning there is freedom to do so. You need to learn what unbiblical means, how to listen carefully, and how to be charitable.
min 44..."its crucial to get it right" - soooo you noticed, side stepped...and posed to "organizations" being harder on it...which one is it? Yes or no for trinity req. and salvation?
Well I think he didn’t quite answer it either. I was envisioning a person who put their faith in Jesus as the son of God and Savior but didn’t really understand it very well yet. And maybe they didn’t understand the Holy Spirit at all yet. But they genuinely put their trust in Jesus as their savior. Then they would receive the Holy Spirit but not yet understand what that even was. That person could be saved I think. Then later they could come to understand better. But they could still be converted: “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.” Right? Children, for example, don’t understand very much yet-certainly not the Trinity. But they can see their need for a Savior and understand that they have to put their trust in Him.
Is anybody out there able to explain the following from 1 Cor: 15????? 27For “God has put everything under His feet.”b Now when it says that everything has been put under Him, this clearly does not include the One who put everything under Him. 28And when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will be made subject to Him who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all.
I will admit before I comment that I did not listen to this whole video. The reason is I picked up pretty quickly that this was more of a philosophical conversation than a scriptural conversation which I was disappointed in. I am apostolic. So we are oneness believers. We believe that Jesus was God, fully revealed to man kind. Fully God and Fully man. I like to say STRICT monotheism. All that to say I have a few questions I would like to offer up about the trinity that I have yet to have answered from scripture. First- Which of these persons of the God head is the Father that Jesus refers to when He speaks and prays? Because Like 1:35 and Matthew 1:18 say the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary. So is the Holy Spirit the Father? My next question: What does Jesus mean when He says in John 10:30 when he said "I and my Father are one" I've heard people say it's like how a husband and wife are one. As in one in Unity. But that wouldn't make since taking into account John 14:8-11. Philip asks to see the Father and Jesus says'If you've seen me you've seen the father". So unless if I've seen you I've seen your wife also. And finally- Colossians 2:8-10. How can the fullness of the Godhead (AKA the essence of who God is) dwell in Jesus Christ? Wouldn't it just be part of the God head? I ask these in the hopes that they would make you think and consider looking more into Apostolic Oneness theology. We believe that the Holy God Yahweh of the Old Testament exists as only ONE spirit. And that ONE spirit was robed in flesh- fully God and Fully Man as Jesus Christ.
Hi, Mikaela. I would like to answer your questions with respect. If I misunderstand a question, please feel free to correct or clarify. First, can we agree that God is not like human beings and there are aspects to God that, while not contradictory, can exceed our capabilities of fully understanding? God is the Creator and not the Creation. If we can start with the fact that God cannot contain logical contradictions (like a square circle), but still will have aspects to Him that we can't understand, we're in a good, humble place and escape the danger of putting God in a box that our minds can contain. I think we will also agree that the Bible is God's revelation of Himself to us and is our ultimate guide for who He is. Also, I am gratified to know that you do not deny the deity of Christ! I was once a modalist 1) Q: Which of these persons of the God head is the Father that Jesus refers to when He speaks and prays? Because Luke 1:35 and Matthew 1:18 say the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary. So is the Holy Spirit the Father? A: Jesus prays to the Father. I think you take a modalist perspective, that God is one in being and one in person. Is that correct? So He changes forms or reveals/manifests Himself as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? Luke 1:35 says, "And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God." This verse seems to actually emphasize the different 'persons' of the Trinity. Otherwise Jesus' spirit would be overshadowing Himself? 2) Q: What does Jesus mean when He says in John 10:30 when he said "I and my Father are one" A: The Trinity teaches that there is only one God, and so the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the one, true God. Human analogies don't work with God all the time, because human beings are one in being and one in person, unlike God. God isn't like us. We are like Him in some respects (made in His image). For John 14:8-11, you have to read the whole passage where Jesus explains what he means by "You have seen the Father", because Jesus and the Father are the one, true God, so when you have seen one, you have seen the other. This isn't saying they are the same person, but as Jesus says, "I am in the Father and the Father is in me." 3) Q: Colossians 2:8-10. How can the fullness of the Godhead (AKA the essence of who God is) dwell in Jesus Christ? Wouldn't it just be part of the God head? A: I mean this respectfully, but I don't think you understand the Trinity doctrine well enough. God is not divided, like a triangle or an egg, into parts. God is like nothing else in all Creation. He alone is God. There is ONE being, God, who cannot be divided into parts. Oneness cannot account for the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit simultaneously existing and personally relating to one another. -Kris
@@biblicalworldview1 So you believe the Spirit in Jesus is not the Holy Spirit? Do you not believe you have received the Spirit of the Son? Because the scriptures say that. Or the Spirit of Christ? The scriptures also say you should have received that? So how many spirits does one receive when they get saved if the Holy Spirit is not the Spirit of the Son or Christ? You must believe God was manifest in the flesh, would not every Jew understand that as the Eternal only God the Father in the flesh? And not the eternal only second person son spirit coming in the flesh? When Jesus says if you see him you see the Father, isn't he clarifying that it is indeed the Father who is in the flesh? Are you not adding to the scriptures? You quoted the part the Lord says I am in the Father and the Father is in me, but can you honestly say you understand the meaning in terms of the trinity? The Lord in context was speaking about who he really is and he was saying that his true identity is God who dwells in him as the Father or Spirit and his body which is outside is the Father's body. The Lord sees his Body as himself not only his Spirit being him, this is why he says things like eat my flesh and drink my blood, because his Body is God who is Spirit made flesh. You see how it all comes together? I don't believe in the Pope's doctrine of the trinity. Whosever confesses Jesus is the Son of God is saved, if the Son of God is a second person the Pope is also saved. But if the Son of God is the Father in the flesh, perhaps not? May God judge, or should I say the Lord Jesus Christ the Almighty.
@@biblicalworldview1 Hi Friend. I actually wonder if you understand the trinity. Yes we are starting in the same place with your first two assumptions though I wouldnt call myself a modelist. I think we also would both agree that what we are trying to do is understand an infinate God with our finate minds. And so I must say I don't think I made this clear. Modelist works but I don't think it quite allows for the full understanding of my faith which is why I prefer to use strict numerical oneness beliver. The Orthodox trinitarian view is God in three persons- so God the Father God the Son God the Holy Ghost BUT the Father is not the son is not the Holy Ghost is not the Father. you may see the triangle with the Titles of the Godhead in the corners. That is my understanding of the Trinity and that is what I am arguing against. I am specifically pointing at the "Is nots" in my questions. So if the Father IS NOT the Holy Ghost then why was it the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit who overshadowed Mary. Would that not make the Father and the Holy Ghost the same 'person'. And if Jesus is not the Father then why would He say 'If you've seen me you've seen the Father'. If they are only one in Unity then my question would be "If youve seen me have you seen my husband?' because we are one in Unity. I look at scripture starting in Genesis and through the Jewish lense of the Old Testament recognizing that God made it so clear that He is only one and so unwilling to compromise what Jesus Himself said is the greatest commandment I cannot divide God into 'persons' for the sake of my own understanding. God is the Father. God is the Son. God is the Holy Ghost. God is the Great I Am. God is the Cloud by Day and the Fire By night. God is the alpha. God is the omega. God is the Rose of Sharon. God is the prince of Peace. And Jesus was That God Manifested in the flesh. The Fullness of The Godhead. The fullness and complete essence of God was born as a man, lived as a man and died as a Lamb and complete sacrifice for the sins of this world. I think the language in the bible is confusing because we are all finate humans trying to articulate a infinate God but this is the best that I can articulate it in a RU-vid comment! Haha!
To answer your question, John 10:30 is easily explained with another Scripture (John 10:30) I and the Father are one.” (John 17:20-22) “I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word, SO THAT THEY MAY ALL BE ONE, JUST AS YOU, FATHER, ARE IN UNION WITH ME AND I AM IN UNION WITH YOU, THAT THEY ALSO MAY BE IN UNION WITH US, so that the world may believe that you sent me. I have given them the glory that you have given me, IN ORDER THAT THEY MAY BE ONE JUST AS WE ARE ONE. BEING ONE MEANS BEING IN AGREEMENT, UNITED IN A COMMON PURPOSE. (John 14:9) Whoever has seen me has seen the Father also. How is it you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Jesus reflected his Father's personality so perfectly it was AS IF seeing Jesus would be like seeing the Father. Jesus came to earth as the exact equal of Adam before he sinned, a perfect man, 100% human but sinless. He was not a God-man, that would not have been a proper redeeming sacrifice, he had to be Adam's equal.
I don't think that Christians have to believe the Trinity if they have not really been introduced to it. Or, they could just be errant in not realizing it. However, I would not recommend a church group that rejects the Trinity concept or tries to appeal to non-trinitarian advocates by having a vague statement of faith.
I agree with the analogies being imperfect, but I think the 3 in 1 apple book I had as a child really helped me conceptualize God, so they have their place, I think.
ONE GOD FATHER have his word - he create everything with his word and since he is almighty his word can become anything so it can become flesh - Son living word of God-I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God and God have his holy Spirit
@@SeanMcDowell You're a good man, Sean----but there is MUCH You know NOT, concerning this, "trinity" thing! With all respect, it is a Man made, Post Apostolic, Dark Age Doctrine. There IS but ONE, Literal, Almighty GOD...Therefore, there IS but ONE, Almighty, Eternal, Omniscient HOLY SPIRIT. THAT can ONLY be...the FATHER! Jesus, contrastly....is NOT the FATHER. Nor is he a,....SPIRIT. "SON of GOD," is NOT the same as, IS GOD, my friend! Seek WISDOM. Seek Truth.
Trinity is not in the Bible. Jesus was subservient to God. The pagan Roman Catlick church invented the lie. “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.” 1 Thimothy 2:5-6) “For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all”. (1. Corinthians 15:27-28) Jesus Himself never claimed to be God. Your thumbnail directly breaks the second commandment.
