The Trouble with Toltecs 

Thank you!

The honor was mine!

saludos

@@victormedina9154 ¡Saludos hombre! :)

Que significa, "Cenca tlazohcamati"? Apenas voy a empezar el vídeo pero nunca lo avía escuchado

Ome de Mis dos creadormeh favoritos!

Thx for that quote here, I listened to it several times over but couldn’t figure out what the dude was saying!!

My brain went straight to a Sumerian fudging the numbers on a clay tax form.

I was thinking the same thing, about the realism of the statues etc.

There is a story about that ... from Latin American literature. Can't remember it exactly now.

I’d argue its an architectural reference, probably to building large monuments or structures. Could be totally wrong though…

Thank you!

The mere fact that European Mediterranean culture is singularly referred to as "The Classics", in complete disregard for the rest of the planet, goes to show the bias. I too am deeply appreciative of these detailed looks into Mesoamerican culture.

Same here, I love learning about all the many different cultures that the Americas have had from Thousands of years ago. There are so many unknown people/cultures who are not talked about at all today. One of those cultures that fascinate me is the Pre-Olnec culture of Monte Alto, Guatemala. They predate the Olmec and science now are saying that the Pre-Olnec people were probably the first to know the properties of magnetism about 800-1,000 years before the Greeks and Chinese.

@@AncientAmericas so none has any idea at all, I mean at all...the more I look at these ancient stuffs, the more I come to think that specialists also have no clue of what they translate, and the chaos and missmatches of artifacts with dna, how much people moved in the past, how much humans lie about themsleves and about the enemies well...no clue at all. I see the good intention in many of you with these works, and for real, much respect, at least your version is not the classic unilineal kind of narrative..but I quit with the "official historical record", kudos to you for putting so much info together, a lot of work, but for me, it only serves to improve that no clue, there is no way to trust any historical record, we can only take what may be convenient for sleeping better. nice vid as I say. thanks for keeping the doors opened to other views and providing all possible proposals.

@@bobwilson7684 archaeology always has room for error. If you think the evidence is being misinterpreted, you should present your own ideas. An outsider's perspective can be a valuable thing.

Thank you!

thats so fascinating!

Not just Nicaragua the Pipil people of El salvador too! A form of Nahuatl is even still spoken there as the southern most form of Nahua language far outside the original scope that's born and spoken in Mexico, it's the southern most because the language is now considered extinct in Nicaragua. However we also have the legend of Topiltzin establishing a population in El Salvador before moving onto Nicaragua during his exodus. Another thing is not only was he believed to take on the name of Queztalcoatl but was also believed to be an incarnation of the deity to his people, which may explain the rivalry between him and Tezcotlipoca in myth if it may have also been grounded in historical events. A king that detested human sacrifice where rival and later groups would glorify the practice.

@@MysticRyokan Nawat isn't extinct from nicaragua, there're small pockets of speakers in the central and northwest of the country. It's estimated that there's 100 native speakers left and more speakers that blend nawat-spanish together mixed.

@@KaiserWilbur oh rip than I guess you better go and correct the academic sources cause they also say it went extinct in the region by the 19th century.

"teaching the clay to lie" also can mean that what looks like stone is actually made of clay.

@@yanina.korolko yeah and that sounds less cryptic too.. my compliments to you. (People speak in English as if they know what they are saying... 'convoluted' is included and 'complement' is lost. :).

I think that's a great interpretation.

@@AncientAmericas thanks

Hooray for good timing!

Gracias!

Does that not feel threatening to you? One day it may result in Mexico Explained. :P

@@oisnowy5368 ha ha

Not really. Not when you consult the sources. It only became problematic when archaeologists declared Tula Xicocotitla as the only Tollan. Creating a cognitive dissonance when presented with anything else.

Thanks!

Athens had a maretime empire though

And Hellenic influence in general was greatly spread by Alexander the Great, and the massive empire he created.

@@Carewolf but their lasting influence is arguably the immaterial philosophical and scientific concepts that they left behind. It could be similar in this region, where the Toltec's are regarded as highly developed in culture and knowledge, just as the Greek's were in Ancient Europe.

@@Genghaodeshenghuo those "immaterial" influences were the schools, languages, ideas left behind of the culture when the state fell not the complete death of the people and culture...

Hi swabcraft, carewolf and others, I just thought I’d opine a few tidbits on this blessed controversy. Firstly I’d say that Athens did intentionally embark on an imperial agenda, citing the mighty Thucydides as an early historian on the partickulars. Whether Sparta ever shared that agenda I would be far less certain of. That they resented opposed or even feared in a rather manly sort of way, naturally, the various consequences the Athenian ambitions could impose on Sparta and its allies is fairly apparently why they matched or opposed is probably clearer to say Athenian military forces doesn’t mean that Sparta itself wanted or coveted the same things that Athens did. As a sidebar I’d add at this point that as Thucydides often describes, whether it is fair to generalize that ‘the Athenians’ desired an empire is very debatable (npi), but after the debates the voting etc certain policies were acted upon to advance the imperialist agenda and the rest of em had to suck it up. (Sound familiar??) So probably lots of ppl reading this already know this and I apologize if I sound pretentious or good forbid, misinformed about things that happened way back when . Since it’s all just a preamble to discussing,…? Hang on a sec I gotta review here a bit!!

Yes, sounds possible, something on the lines of a historical fact that got over exaggerated. Also kind of reminds me of the protestant reformation, a popular ideology that spread without a central empire to enforce it.

I can totally see that

People act like propaganda was a 20th century invention! Despite that, your theory and the preponderance of evidence around the world suggests otherwise.

There's a clear mythic basis to Arthur's stories even at the start. When a hero gets deified that identifies them with earlier cultural narratives.

@The Legate Haha, I read that and immediate thought of what happened to Chuck Norris 20ish years old :P

I'm happy you're a patron too!

Thank you! We'll definitely get to the Aztecs in due time. To be completely honest though, I like covering more obscure topics that don't get as much attention.

Am positive am part Toltec my grandmother was indigenous and tall AF. From Jalisco México. And meeting other Indigenous people from the same area they have Bright yellow eyes as well. And darker skin. The Toltec bloodline still exist

@@expendablewater7474 One thing I absolutely love about the Nahua people is how far they extended, they settled as far south as northern Costa Rica. Historians claim that the Nahua people of Nicaragua, El Salvador and Costa Rica are descendants of Toltecs, they’re known as the Pipil-Nicarao. They know this cause of the Pipil-Nicarao’s expertise in medicine, the Nahuatl dialect the Toltecs spoke is also the exact same the Pipils and the Nicarao spoke, and the religious and political similarities are identical to the Toltecs. In addition the timeframe of the Nahua migrations in Central America after the collapse of Tollan is well timed

Fall of Civilizations has a great doc on the Aztecs in the meantime :) I learned more from it than I ever did in school

@@AncientAmericas maybe something about the origins of nahua peoples in general and when they became a distinct group from other Uto-Aztecan Language Speakers would be nice

Thank you! Nice to see that I've learned a thing or two along the way.

You're welcome!

You're welcome!

Sometimes the answer is too obvious to consider.

Does punctuation forbidden for you? This mess is completely unclear, it's impossible to quickly read your sentences

@@alfotiosacaramde9631 I didn't have any trouble with it. Also, someone who uses entirely the wrong word, 'does' instead of 'is', kinda has no right to criticise someone's writing and grammar. Especially since you forgot the punctuation at the end yourself.

@@alfotiosacaramde9631 dig a hole

@@alfotiosacaramde9631 You are just bad at reading comprehension, you illiterate moron. There's some punctuation, numbnuts.

you shouldn’t feel bad about that. All you can know, is what you’ve been taught. And the further along we go it seems like we find out much of it isn’t true

Thank you!

Thank you! If you want more material check out the bibliography for each episode. You can find it in each video's description.

Toltecs Until The Fall Of Tula by Nigel Davies is an excellent book, synthesizes a lot of the known and written material really well

Look what we got here! A comedian!

Rooftops ! A courtesy of *_'TOLTEC'_* , get your licence, now... No wonder their city was burned down...

Yeah, but noone of their roofs endured to see the day of modern day, so their Technology cinda not good

@@equilibrum999 so does roof from any modern town in europe after ww2 ...LMAO

Huh the Talltec empire.

Thank you!

Thank you!

If you want a much better archaeology refresher, check out Nate Fossaaen's channel, ru-vid.com/show-UCPtpx23uFPZQAHK7Ou_yvlQ

I actually came across the pipil in my research because they have their own accounts of topiltzin. It's really interesting how far those accounts are spread.

@@AncientAmericas Have you learned about Xoconoxco (near Tapachula, Chiapas, near the Guatemala border)? It was populated by Nahuatl speakers and had a significant impact on regional trade and culture in the post-Classic/pre-conquest era, in a region dominated by speakers of languages very different from Central Mexico.

@@habitualforeigner Yes I have and it is a really interesting area. There's also some Maya presence in that area as well if I'm not mistaken.

@@AncientAmericas Actually Xoconochco wasn't a Nahuatl-speaking region, nor a Mayan one; but a Mixe-Zoquean one, and the dominant language of the region was Tapachultec, a language from a very ancient family which may have been spoken by the Tenocelome.

@@AztlanHistorian I stand corrected! Thank you for clarifying.

You're welcome!

You're welcome!

Thank you!

Yes! I second that! The cultures of the US Northwest into the Canadian southwest are amazing, with fascinating and illuminating values, like the potlatch. Theirs are my favorite arts (except for the Bella Coola, in truth, which creeps me out), the totem poles, the way they track their heritage (reminds me of the Aboriginals of Australia), their social structures, their reverence for the spirit world. I hope you do!

Thank you! Assuming no catastrophes happen, there will be a PNW episode next year. If you have any good books or articles, please feel free to share with me.

@@AncientAmericas If the weather holds, I will try to excavate them!

Thanks!

Here's hoping!

Well it's better than reality Tv🤷‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤮

Conspiracies, political indoctrination and all sorts of horrible biases are something we need to counter whenever possible, and I love to make my little contribution to that effort. Greetings

Nice that you know your ancestry my family is from Romita Guanajuato and A small ranch outside of Penjamo Guanajuato. Since that area was the borders of the Tarascan and Aztec borders we really don’t know what tribe/s we descend from. The Otomi were also very present in the region like you said.

@@davo1924 very cool. well thats just the last language my dads grandmother and other people on the Rancho still spoke and still kinda know. My uncle taught me a few words, but he said they weren't taught that language as children but they heard it spoken amongst the adults.. He grew up just outside San Miguel de Allende on el rancho del rincon. I've seen other information that says the borders and the frontiers of those nations as well as the Toltec, were protected by various Otomies. But thats a whole other subject because they're a very complex and deep rooted and often forgot part of Mexico history. He told me that and I'm probably just spelling it as it sounds but Te keesh que di, meant buen dia. I wish I could pick their brains a little more often.

Anytime!

Thank you!

Thank you! I would definitely like to cover them at some point.

Thank you! The closest thing to a reading list that I have is the bibliography for each episode and you can find that in the description. Is there a specific area and time that fascinates you?

Thank you Horus!

The only food episodes I've done are corn and potatoes. I'll probably do another next year if all goes well.

Thanks! There's a lot of literature you can read on that and it's really fascinating.

​@@AncientAmericas I do hope you get to their astronomical/astrological science. It really is mindblowing, both in its development, its precision, and its social and spiritusl application. There's something very quirky about having the orbit of Venus, and its phases, as the primary religious focus. Deep.

@@grovermartin6874 I do need to make an archaeoastronomy episode at some point.

@@AncientAmericas I will be holding my breath! A friend wrote a program/book called "Aztec" (at least, that was the name of the computer program) that had some superb delineations for the day signs. Very easy reading. There are two bits, a couple of which you referred to, like 1 Reed (the name of Bruce's publishing company, actually) and 9 something, Rain, maybe? But he got the two parts mixed up, according to the people I met from that part of the world. And they all knew their signs! One fellow, from Nicaragua, volunteered his sign, which he translated as the Wanderer, when I expressed amazement at all the countries in which he'd lived. Your videos are SO well done. And getting better and better!

Congratulations! Good luck with the new job!

Thank you!

Thank you! And today is your lucky day because I already made an episode on Poverty Point! ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-5kwXmjEbav8.html

@@AncientAmericas oh nice! I thought I had already watched all your stuff! But, surprise!

@@AncientAmericas This is exciting!

Thank you!

There are multiple tollans in history and mythology. It can refer to many different places. Which Tollan was he referring to?

@@AncientAmericas I don’t know. She was talking about the Matlatzincas and their Mexica influence, and then she brought it up. I don’t remember the context. Yours is the best analysis about the Toltecs I have heard so far! I’d love if you talked about the Matlatzincas. I had never heard of them until I moved to the Toluca valley and started visiting their archeological sites of in Malinalco, Teotenango and Calixtlahuaca on the weekends. Also the Otomis and Mazahuas. 😁 Greetings from Metepec

@@arenasnefi Got it. The Matlatzincas are an interesting group that don't get much attention. I hadn't heard about them until earlier this year. I'd like to get around to them someday.

Thank you! Sorry about that photo being tough to see. I'll try to be more mindful.

Thank you!

Thanks! What exactly do you mean by non-civilization? Just want to make sure I understand so I can give you a good answer.

@@AncientAmericas it's a hard question to answer but basically I would define it simply as any society that doesnt have complex systems, a state, class stratification, and agriculture in combination. For instance where I'm from the indigenous people's are the abenaki and the haudenosaunee.

Thank you! Yeah, I debated including that in the episode but it's so well known by the public I thought I'd mention it in passing. There's a lot of debate about whether or not it was actually a thing at contact which (again) depends.on how much you trust the sources. Personally, it strikes me as a later invention. Someday when we get to the conquest, I'll go into it in much more detail.

@@AncientAmericas Your replies are the most stimulating and educational that I've run across on the internet. It feels that we're all in a class or on a great field trip with you!

Thank you!

History being written by the "victors" is baby's first deep thought. If you're an adult and you're still using that phrase you're either a teenager who's still ignorant but wants to feel intelligent, or you're a neo nazi or neo confederate.

Thanks!

I need to get out there and see those someday.

@@AncientAmericas If you want to know more about the spirit cave mummy check out ask a morticians video on mummys she does a really good job covering the subject

Thank you!

Thanks gringo loco! Looking forward to your next episode!

That's a very good point.

The Mexica barely had contact with the Maya; so for them the Maya legacy would've been seen much like the Franks saw the legacy of the Han Dynasty in China... not much to say or think about that

hes a while old guy, not much u can expect to learn

@@v_enceremos don't go too hard on Michael Coe. He made huge and invaluable contributions to Maya and mesoamerican studies. I always recommend his books even if they are a bit dated by today's standards.

@@AztlanHistorian I wouldn't go *that* far. But yeah, their relations were much less dynamic than people usually think.

That could definitely be a possibility.

It reminds me of how in Europe, whether ancient Rome or early medieval Britain, everyone wanted to claim descent from Trojan refugees. In Mesoamerica, it was the Toltecs.

Thanks Marcus!

@@AncientAmericas you’re welcome!!!

In Quetzalcoatl's case, the god predates the king... assuming he was a king and not a high priest. Greetings!

Eh, sometimes history isn't quite as exciting as we'd like. Doesn't mean its any less interesting though.

@@AncientAmericas Agree, it was still pretty cool learning about this long gone regional kingdom and the mysteries surrounding it.

Thank Aztlan Historian for that. He was the one who helped get this episode and research rolling. I was pretty intimidated by the topic.

If I were running for office there, I'd be descended from Toltecs, that's for sure.

Thank you. Most of what I read suggested that the Toltec spoke Nahuatl or a closely related language.

i think they all spoketh Nahwatl

Thank you!

Thank you!

I mean ig… but that’s like saying “we’re lucky to have anything from the etruscans” like… if your ancestors didn’t destroy history so much maybe you would have more to inherit

Agreed. You can certainly appreciate the sources we have while also being aware of their limits.

@@BingusDingusLingus As far as I know, I don't know any ancestors in family who are Spanish or colonized/conquered Central America or are responsible with burning indigenous books.

@@BingusDingusLingus Friendly reminder: both the Aztecs and the Spanish burned books.

10 points for alliteration.

Thank you!

Hindsight is 20/20 my friend and I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed.

@@AncientAmericas haha, it's fine. Like I said I have cross culturally applicable knowledge 👍🏼

Thank you!

Thank you!

They are what they were. Warriors of the feathered serpent. Put all the mystical, spiritual spin on it you like.

Thanks!

I almost went mad writing this episode. It was a grind.

@@AncientAmericas That makes sense. Good job!

Thank you!

You're welcome!

Thank you!

Thank you!

You're welcome!

Thank you! Hoping to cover Chaco Canyon sometime in the near future.

Thank you!