It depends on where you get it. A lot of the actual armor pieces people will still make out of steel but it’s also kind of unreasonable for people to expect chainmail to be made historically accurate. People today aren’t using it for going into battle. I make chainmail jewelry and I use aluminum because it would be ridiculously heavy otherwise. Likewise, when people buy chainmail to use for cosplay, they don’t need it to be strong enough to stand up to an actual blade.
@@wetstoffels3198 have your never heard of decorative armor? Lots of modern and even ancient tradition armor is made of less then optimal material if it's not meant to be used in real battle. Ceremonial armor, decorative weapons, do you think they are using their best steel for these. Nope. Besides, chainmail jewelry is great for nerdy flare. I know my necklace gets as much attention as my boyfriend's chainmail shirt (thinkgeek). And niether of those items are combat ready.
I’ve had a potentially brilliant and potentially stupid idea: weld the ends of butted mail with a very small weld, it would increase strength greatly, and then layer some riveted mail with large washers on top
@Theo Paidi a lot of reasons, for one butchers and other jobs that handle sharps knives or other objects often wear mail in the form of gloves to protect their hands and not to mention if you're living in an area with high amounts of stabbings having mail would provide you with a great deal of protection against knife attacks
Dragon Sorcerer X SCA friend of mine brought in a full suit of light plate and did a back handspring in it to win an argument with our DM about whether or not he should get his dex bonus in heavy armor. Was an eye opener. Knights were athletes not lumbering idiots.
Could he still do the back handspring if he had his shield, longsword, 50 gold pieces, 200 silver pieces, backpack with 3 days rations, 3 healing potions, 2 vials of holy water, 1 torch, holy symbol, longbow and quiver with twenty +1 arrows?
While I'd agree that technically he would still be dextrous im real life, you dint get your dex bonus in dnd while wearing plate because the book says so, and because balance. Think about it, without granting additional bonuses, theres no reason to wear light armor over full plate in the game if full plate, shield, and max dex gives me 24/25 AC lol
Stealth checks and encumbrance are the first two things I'd think about when deciding between light or heavy armor. Not to mention a certain level of Str should be required to wear the heavy stuff easily. You can't sleep in plate either, can't cast spells unless you are proficient in it. There are plenty of reasons to decide between heavy or light armor. It is called being prepared for the situation. If you are going into a fight you should want as much armor as possible. If you are scouting, aka not actively looking to enter combat, you'll want light armor to hide, swim, climb and move silently to get around easier.
History channel is not what it used to be they have been producing a lot of fiction recently to maintain ratings because the lack ofeducation in the average population means they just are not as concerned with the truth sometimes when they are looking for something entertaining. Yes there are many smart and educated people out there just not as large a percent as there were a generation or two past. Generally speaking. Just one example Roland the Bear(Died c878AD)and Ivar the Boneless(Died c773AD) in real life were not alive at the same time. No Shad deserves his own tv channel.
@@rembliekain7643 your absolutely spot on. & its not just the history channel its education in general thats poor, compared to when I was at school . History used to be about our heritage our past & now its about WW2 or Africa . People are leaving school & don't know about the history of their own country. On utube I'm always having arguments with people that don't wanna know the truth, they think they know everything. Most of the utube history sites are clueless or repeating stuff that's long outdated. We're updating/correcting what we thought was right yeara ago but know it's not especially with the new technology we have today . But sadly most people aint interested in learning anymore
@@cearfarseer9725 me too! I used to love old history channel , I can't stand the alien & other nonsense they show nowadays. It's basically the same thing everytime. There's not any decent proper history channels atm I mean ancient history, these days history seems to mean ww1 or ww2 . I remember history channels About the romans, was on about 20 yrs ago ,& each episode was an hour and about a different thing , military, ,- senators & how government works, - Clothing, jewellery & fashion of Roman men & women.. each episode was great Really in depth & explained ev thing about the topic . They did a similar one about Saxons too! .. I havnt seen anything really good & informative like that in years. There use to be really good things on most days of the week on Hist Ch. Now it's very occaisionly.
Watching this while making a mail tunic. Sadly only butted because I don’t have the stuff and experience to make riveted, yet, but I would love to make a riveted tunic someday.
Nice to read someone else is actually making this. Currently working on my riveted mail tunic ( roman mail, 50% solid/50% open rings, purchased premade rings). Still remember the first times putting it on, the feeling is just..majestic? And its soo light, just about 6 Kg. Could wear it all day. Weaving was done several month ago, i did rivet half of the open rings in "chains" before weaving everything together... slows down the visible progress but is much easier than riveting every open ring in the finished piece. Now im left with about 40% rings to rivet. Working on it several times a week, still plenty of hours to go. Just wanted to let you know that your not the only crazy one to actually do this, keep it up!
I am Shad I am actually planning to test a mail armour in the way that it shall be tested and make a video about it so people could see what bollocks we are fed with. It might take a while but I thank you so much for inspiration.
I am Shad Definitely :-) If you ever considered visiting Central Europe or the Czech Republic or our neighbourhood countries like Germany or Poland which are more famous for their HEMA and fencing skills I´d gladly help you :-)
Very good video! Mail is *still* being used against cutting, used for over 1000 years. You. Do. Not. Cut. Through. (real) Mail. End of story. Games, movies, etc. should get this right. Add proper gambeson under a hauberk, and you're pretty nicely covered. Light, mobile, and excellent vs. cutting. Thumbs up, Shad!
I have a question, if a gambeson was good at protecting you against cuts, and then you have chain mail protecting you even more from cuts and a little in thrusts. Why were swords still a thing in the medieval ages? Why just don't use a mace and make sure that your hit counted instead of a cut and have the unpleasent surprise that the gambeson was really good or that he's using riveted chain mail? Thanks in advance for anyone that answers me :)
The interesting thing is that swords became far less of a thing on the battlefield for that armour problem you point out. They were often carried as backup sidearms but not the main weapon. Polearms like the pike, billhook and poleaxe were used. The sword was still very big though, because it was the side arm and people carried it for personal defence in civilian environments, where armour wasn't worn.
Swords were also a large status symbol in medieval times. They were the equivalent to a medieval Ferrari, so if you had one you were either extremely rich a member of nobility or had a sword passed down to you. also seeing a lot of knights and high nobility were related back then they wouldn't want to kill each other on the battlefield, one so they didn't have to apologies to there family for killing there brother and also because they can ransom them back to there families
Not true. Swords weren't that expensive and peasants and farmers also had swords and even some used cheap armor. Fancy swords and highly valuable swords were not used when strolling around town.
+jengaaaaa That would depend on the era we talk about. circa 600's -> 800's a simple sword of steel was a status symbol because it was really, really hard to make a proper durable sword at that time and the best pattern welded swords were afforded such status that they forged legends (most swords of iron would snap in half if you tried to strike it). Peasants could at best afford a seax, a simple long-knife. circa 1200's -> 1400's a longsword was the status symbol of a moderately wealthy noble or a skilled swordsman as peasants could at best afford an arming sword, or as in germany where swords were banned from peasants, messers or large knives. When a young nobleman could afford a pretty and well-made sword, oh he would stroll through the town swaggering and showing it off. This is where the term "swashbuckler" eventually came from; a young noble, looking for a chance to show off his skill with his sword and buckler which were hanging from his hip.
and if I remember correctly there are medieval bones with traces of mail rings being smashed into them by powerful blows but rings were not broken or cut.
OMG your logic for the movement of the body when hit make so much sense. You really know your stuff! And great point about the demo guys using the crappy mail without the rivets!
Absolutely agree. Total common sense. I am a memeber of the SCA for over 20 years and we have these discussions with new people all the time. Love your channel.
Sort of? Recently some German police started wearing chainmail 'cause they tend to get attacked more with axes and machetes and other tools that make good weapons instead of guns, or something like that. It's kind of weird, seeing riot cops wearing chainmail under a plate carrier and other tac gear, but also kinda cool. :D
JonatasAdoM Oh, of course. If it looks stupid but it works, it ain't stupid. That having been said, I don't think it looks stupid, it looks kinda cool. ^^
I absolutely love watching this nerd get all riled up over drama within his interest area lol. He had me completely invested in it too. Interesting stuff.
I've never really delved into this sort of thing, but now i've become really interested due to your videos. this is the second one ive watched. You debunking the false allegations of the chainmail simulations really boiled my beans dude! Hot deal
A bit off topic, but that "give" part made me think of cars. I think they call it a crumple point or something? Anyway, cars used to be made very very thick with little give. Despite the thought that this added protection, because there was no give, the inhabitants of the vehicle would pretty much splatter. *POP* goes the driver. So they made it to where cars crumple a bit. This makes a car give a bit more upon impact, absorbing a fair amount of force from the collision and increasing likelihood of survival.
After decades in the SCA, I've finally acquired some proper riveted mail. About half the weight of the butted hauberk I used to wear. Can't wait to fight in it (with a coat of plates over it).
Well, these are some accurate points, but I have some issues with your general condemnation of butted mail. Of course it isn't historical accurate. Of course it is heavier than riveted. Of course, using cheap and weak materials will result in weak armour. And combining all of that results in a cheap TV prop. However, chainmail with thick enough rings, proper steel and 4-in-1 structure is still a tough obstacle. I own a niece mail shirt, springsteel, 4-in-1, quite thick rings and there is no chance in hell of ripping it apart like cloth. I actually tested it just now with my whole weight. It didn't rip. Maybe if some rings were already compromised I could do some damage, but not easily. Tl;dr: Saying that all butted mail is total crap is as much as a misrepresentation as the one you mentioned in your video.
How much quality spring steel (ie of a quality good enough to reliably forge many many small chain links from) d'you think was available 500-2000 years ago? & how many armourers/smiths could effectively use it to that purpose, even if they were known as such? We're not talking leaf springs for wagons/carriages or even xbows or basic firearms here; it's far more delicate work requiring much higher quality material & the knowledge & skill to manufacture many many tiny parts consistently, then assemble them..
I think you need to rewatch the video he does not totally condem Butted mail. He says that when compared to Riveted mail butted mail is not as good. He also explains why. However he does not totally condemn butted mail. He says it is "Realy weak" compared to Rivited mail. Also the tearing comment he says that "if you found a weak part on the edge" it could tear from that point and keep tearing. There is one point where he does say "of course its crap" referring to butted mail being improperly tested by being braced against a hard solid object
A few years ago I bought a set of chainmail. Due to not knowing any better, I bought a suit of butted mail. I loved it, but I was surprised at how heavy it was and how easily the links broke. I'm glad you made this video, I was guilty of a lot of the misconceptions you called out here. The only downside is that now I really want a set of riveted mail... ;-)
At the local renaissance fair, one of the armorers there showed me something called "Gun mail," which had very large rings that would be easier for a surgeon to remove from a gunshot wound. However, I haven't been able to find anything else on it. Was that a thing?
Thank you for sharing this informative video confirming the effectiveness of riveted chainmail. Especially for encounters with many of the Asian martial systems involving slicing weapons like the karambit, kukri, wakazashi, hudiedao.
Well, traditional Japanese "chainmail" was known to be butted. It is generally accepted that they did not start using riveted mail over there until, they saw European versions and copied those. Perhaps they could have had some earlier exposure to the style from Chinese merchants, but the point remains the same. Of course, the caveat is that Japanese mail was made for a rather different purpose, as it was largely worn to support other armor, or in the later post-feudal period by police forces and the like. It was not meant to provide the same kind of protections as European mail, largely because of the deficit of acute piercing weapons used in Japan. This all being said, I do not claim any form of expertise in this, I just wanted to make a point that you did not seem to address (especially as you brought up the topic of a katana point being unable to pierce "properly" made chainmail). Butted chainmail was used historically, but perhaps in a different context to the European made, riveted examples.
+Sagrotan Yes, but Japanese weapons (at least to my eyes) seem to have rather broad points. Katana, Yari, Naginata. I'm sure there are exceptions, as with anything, but from Japan ive seen no bodkin like points for piercing armor, nor any melee weapons sporting long, thin piercing blades
Actually, I just did some light research (wiki) and I did find that some types of Yari spear (straight blade) did have very acute piercing points, as did some arrowhead types. My point still stands I believe. Japanese armors seemed focused on giving the combatant excellent movement first, and protection second (the opposite model followed by later European armor). This meant that (generally) Japanese armor had exploitable gaps that one might be able to get a decent slash in. Thus the prevalence of cutting oriented weapons. This is not to say that Japanese weapons could not pierce, just that they were not optimized for that purpose as later European swords and pole arms were. But all this being said, I really am no expert in these things, I just enjoy thinking about them :p
"deficit of acute piercing weapons used in Japan." Number 1 weapon: bow, piercing weapon. Dominant weapon in japan. Number 2 spear: piercing weapon, next most dominant weapon in japan. Number 3 gun: not exactly piercing, but no chain mail helps there. third most dominant, but quickly became top dog. Katana is a backup weapon, used in civilian samurai life. Biggest problem: BODKIN ARROWS ARE NOT PIERCING ARROWS. They have only ever been found made of IRON. Not hardened steel as the modern tests pretend were a thing. They were flight arrows only, looking for lucky shots. WAR arrows were BROADHEAD and HARDENED STEEL. Japanese armour in the sengoku period emphasised a strong top of helmet and chestplate to reduce gunshot wounds. Japanese armour, like western counterparts, was already completely arrow proof. thus, why not use a broadhead to do as much damage to the less armoured parts, and mainly horses, as possible? Sankaku yari is a thin triangular cross section spearhead with a very sharp tip. Seen as all of japan, even the peasants, used plate armour, what is the point in pointy tips, exactly? In the age of plate armour, nobody beat it with pierce weapons. The Japanese used one weapon to beat armour, Kanabō. Big heavy blunt weapon.
Once the wire was coiled into a spring and then cut into the individual rings, they were flattened with a hammer, held over a candle or fire and then dropped in water which hardened it. This all happened before the rings were linked together.
another weird question have you heard of Washer-mail? It is a thing another you-tuber i watch came up with, it's basically 2 washers that are sandwiched over a fabric (heavy duty canvas stitched to soft leather is what he used) base then pop riveted together. He had made armor kind of like Samurai Haidatai upper leg armor. He makes mostly DIY apocalyptic Armor and Weapons.
I just binged about 10 videos and i was just thinking the same thing. About 5 videos in i was thinking these videos could be half as long and 3 times less annoying. He has good passion and info on the subject though so.....not bad overall lol
Mail is so effective that it is still used in meat factories to protect the hands of those who cut the meat and all that, and boy let me tell you, those knives are insanely sharp. Source: mum worked in one of those.
Absalutely right. I spent a year or so with the local SCA group (which is largely a group dedicated to gathering in a field and beating the crap out of each other with sticks while wearing armor). During this time I was able to wear mail with rounded rings, flat rings, both with butted, riveted, and soldered rings, and all made of various grades of steel from galvanized fencing wire to high end carbon type stainless. When the mail is made and fitted correctly, and worn with the appropriate gambison padding, there is simply nothing to compare it to. There is always a list of trade offs with armor of any sort but mail over gambison offers the best balance of protection, versatility, weight, comfort, etc, etc.
I have a full set of mail which I made years ago when I was in the SCA. when I say full, I mean head to toes. It was made of butted steel welding rod. The hauberk went down to my knees. I fought in the armor, ( sca style) and have done a few tests of my own on my mail. My observations confirm most of what the author of this video is saying. While I was fighting, I would use a light coat of plastic plate underneath my mail ( same as when I didn't wear the Mail), and I would also wear steel arms/ legs/ helm as per SCA norms. A few things I noticed. 1. It was heavy...Heavier than plate... much so. 2. because you were moving, the mail would not sit flat against your body and so when the blow initially hit, it would have to move the mail and would greatly deaden the blow before the blow would connect with your body. This added much greater protection for the lower torso/ leg area. What the author was saying about trying to penetrate the mail with a sword over a stationary object vs a real man is most likely true, but because of the fact that the mail itself was in motion separate from the man underneath it and slightly separated from it. 3. the mail would turn most blows into glancing blows, if the blow was not perfect. this also lessened the force of the blow. the mail was basicly acting a little like ball bearings. In real use, most of the mail most likely would have been worn over a padded gambeson or maybe leather, and hence would offer much great protection then a gambeson alone. The mass of the mail greatly deadening the blow. It would have turned swords into clubs, and poor ones at that. Of coarse, swords were used buy the rich, primarily against the unarmored masses- common foots soldiers ect. Spears, axes and arrows would likely have great affect on mail. just like they did everyone else. Thats where your Kite sheild was of great use and importance. And your conical shaped helm. It was all part of a system. including the mobility granted by your trusty horse. It was used for a long period of time, and did not disappear til the age of gunpowder, and improved metalurgy. And even during the age of plate, it was used to fill gaps under arms ect. and by the way. with modern welding rod steel, the butts held together quite well and did not take much repair. Early mail would likely really need the rivets, do to poor metallurgy. Larger link diameter would make it lighter ( depending on wire gauge) but weaker also. I also noticed that the links would polish the rust away if you wore it a lot. but I would still keep a little oil on it, and it would make everything underneath it black ( oilly metal). It is also possible that they could have case hardened the mail after it was made but heating it up and droping the shirt into a vat of oil. this would have even more improved its performance, especially the lower quality earilier steels they would have been using. Unfortunately, I dont think any of the early mail survived. Most rusted away thru the ages.
Ya ever just start following the youtube sidebar and an hour later think to yourself: How the hell did I get here? Thats how you find the best channels. Like this one :D
Had some friends do some maille experiments some time ago. Dressed a pig carcass in gambeson and maille on a sprung stand. Both butted and rivetted withstood what was dealt out. Against arrows, not to much for the reasons you stated. Mauls and maces were amusing. While they didn't damage the maille they made a good job of tenderising the flesh beneath. But then those weapons aren't about piercing.
Growing up I had a cousin in the SCA. He had a mail shirt, and, being the dumb kid I was, I had slipped it on and asked him how well it worked while he was putting away some dishes. He promptly picked up a butcher knife and wacked me in the chest several times. "That still really stung!" "Yeah, but you're still alive." And that was the butted mail a college student could get his hands on. I think he found a way to harden the rings after placing them though. Not sure on that.
You also need to take into account the padding underneath, such as an ackiton or gambeson or both add this to a good byrnie and the combination is hard to penetrate.
>could I use the same solder from circuit board solder Eeh, you could, it wouldn't be that strong though. You'd be much better off with a silver solder (expensive) or if you're fine going higher temps, brazing. But it'll be time consuming any of the 3 ways. Something I would recommend no matter what you're doing, make half the suit solid rings. Just buy washers, they're a bit more expensive than making rings yourself, but given that only half of the suit needs to worry about solder joints breaking... it makes the thing a hell of a lot stronger.
It is hard to solder to metal, it is too conductive. Also it is SOOO easy to break solder. Nowadays you can 3d print with metal, so you could make complete rings xD
>It is hard to solder to metal, it is too conductive Get a more powerful soldering iron. Like really, are you trying to use a 100w radioshack one? >Also it is SOOO easy to break solder. Depends on the type of solder and how well it's joined. I get the nagging feeling you have some pretty crappy solder joints if you're having "conductivity" problems. Also dependign on the kind of wire you're using you likely need to acid treat the metal before solder will bind to it. If you use the black anodized rebar tie wire that a lot of people use, solder doesn't stick to that for shit. (but its great for making riveted mail) Also there are dozens of ways you could reinforce the solder joint. >Nowadays you can 3d print with metal Can you? Far as I can tell that right is mostly restricted to companies that can afford the hardware (it ain't your $500 desktop 3d printer), and none of them are going to let you use their equipment to make a suit of chainmail. On top of that, 3d printed metal isn't very strong. 3d printing is good for complex geometry, but the majority of processes I've seen generate parts with properties slightly above stamped/sintered powdered metal. IE vastly below what could be produced by machining or forging. It's primarily used for components that need to be metal, but aren't likely to be under a lot of physical stress (usually more for thermal stress as they can build features into the part that could never be machined) >so you could make complete rings xD Probably not. You might manage a flat sheet of rings interlocked, but you'd still have to manually stitch them together with more rings (that'd need to be butted/welded/soldered/riveted) to make a functional shirt. Also you'd have to add expansions and contractions where needed for the thing to fit properly.
I've tested 14 ga. 5/16" 4/1 butted, And riveted. 12ga. Aluminum, and 17ga steel, and period iron. Roman/Celt alternate solid and riveted. As a backing I used Pork meat and fresh bones encased in gelatin, under wool tunic fabric, Gambesson, and maille. It stood up to swords, spear, and lance on the ground not backed by a solid object but laying on a mattress to present some give. Horse at full galloping speed a lance was devastating. Most butted UNDER 6mm was pretty tough. All aluminum was shit. 17ga steel Roman maille was very tough. I did this study on my own 25 years ago trying to get the SCA to go to an as armour worn standard. I only had hand written records that have long since been lost.
Very good, the element of comonsence is priceles, one other thing never mentioned is that no log or pig or post is going to stab or slash you while you are proving how bad mail is.
How well would mail hold up against bites from animals like a wolf or larger ones like bears and tigers ? I'm planning on doing an up close and personal brown bear hunt in Alaska this year, using my halberd to fight it. I was thinking of going with a chainmail coat for protection because plate armor would be far too loud, heavy, and visible.
As someone who made a patch of mail using around 1mm in diameter wire (big pain in the butt for someone new to it) [some 250 rings total]: 1. Riveted 1mm thick (5mm ID ring) is possible... but not by someone lacking a proper tools. I was the fool who lacked said tools all my rings are butted, but they're tiny and I made sure everything was tight so it didn't fall apart immediately 2. Without going into the boring numbers; anyone smaller than the gaps can get through. The main offender is the hole in the rings, You can use different patterns to lessen the gaps, but that means it'll be more of a pain to make. 3. It's tedious as all hell to make no matter the wire or rings size, but its totally worth it if done right 4. History shows every country across Eurasia (Europe and Asia) made mail. In the middle east ans India they used insanely small rings so it was more like flexible steel that felt like air for them. Sorry for the long rant, i had a lot of info to share
often times in battle they were raced by more soldiers behind them. mail was common like you said most all frontli e i fantry wore it there wasnt a lot of movement available in the front ranks and battle seldom opened up for a long time
Any type of very flexible mail, such as and specifically chain mail, of the very best kind even, leaves the individual very much unprotected against ANY and all blows that apply a strong deforming efect to the body. It may be resistant to piercing, BUT the person will be severely injured or stunned by any STRONG force applied to it. Even with underlying gambeson or padding, the blows from blunt weapons such as a mace, heavy hammer, strongly pushed point of halberds, etc, will severely incapacitate the person, because the armor will deform under that pressure, thus applying the pressure to the body - that effect, as you well say being somewhat diminished IF the individual is actively retracting himself from contact. Plate armor, if sufficiently strong and underlied by a softening piece, will effectively disperse such blows by avoiding the quick and dynamic deformation suffered by chain mail. So, there is a possible reason for the generalized replacement of chain mail by plate mail.
great video!!!! man, just think thats why the warriors focus on no armored points, like face, legs or something like that. AND the most important think to me, the warriors train to use weapons since childhood, so the bodys have prepared muscles to hit, and a lot of things
Yes indeed you are correct and my statement regarding the prevalence of historical butted mail was completely wrong. A notation has been added to the video clarifying this oversight. Thank you for pointing it out mate!
Interesting topic. And probably interesting author. But I just can't watch video with "TRUTH" word in title written with capital letters. Too pretentious ._.
I enjoy your insight on mid evil weaponry I’ve noticed many of these so-called experts lump lump all mid evil swords and armor into one category. They don’t take an account the technology of weapon making evolved over the centuries. When someone would make a better weapon in the other would like better armor and vice versa
Crusader mail was very effective against the short composite bows of the Turkish and Saracen horse archers. "Warriors looked like pin cushions," is an oft quoted statement from the chroniclers. Apparently the mail slows the arrow down enough and spreads the force over the mail enough that the aketon can absorb the power of the arrow. (I assume this would work to some extent to thrusts from anti-mail weapons)
I have a friend who makes both types of mail, he does butted for show, and to sell to people (takes a lot less time) and riveted for the real medieval combat challenges around my state. He does two types 4-1 and 6-1 (6-1
I agree in part. Test against medieval weapons and armor-particularly mail-do not take proper physics into account. A braced object is easier to break. HOWEVER, you can’t praise mail too much, because if it was the ultimate armor, why would there have been a need for plate armor? A blow from an axe or a two handed sword at the upper traps (where one is most braced) would undoubtedly cut through mail. A spear to the chest and arrows as well.
There is a reason divers use mail when working around sharks. It is extremely good at stopping nips and bites from smaller sharks, and the sharks that have teeth small enough to get through it lack the strength to inflict any sort of significant damage to you, and the sharks that have that kind of strength are either medium sized sharks that incapable of getting through mail with either teeth size or bite force, such as makos, blues, and sandtigers, or are large sharks with enough bite force to break through with brute force alone, such as tigers, bulls, or great whites, and you really don't want to dive with the first of those, and whites typically don't attack people anyway, and you usually use a cage for them anyway.
Can't say I agree 100% with the stuff you say, but you make compelling arguments for everything and that is worth respecting in itself! I know you love swords, but you tend to be raher bias towards them. Axes can be versatile and effective weapons, and have features that offer aggressive techniques like hooking the shield or leg of an opponent and pulling them off balance. Many maces offer the advantage of all sides being striking sides, so the wielder doesn't have to worry about striking with the flat of a blade and the like.
No Matter how much stabbing you do, no matter what type of chainmail you use, Every person who tests never tests a swing. They only test stabs. chain mail plus shield and sword your job is to turn a direct blow into an angled blow and minimize the rivetted will also minimize arrow damage as it only can puncture not go into and get stuck in your body.
Most people doesnt know HOW Mail works tbh... It has to be fit well to your 'under armor'. It also doesnt have to do with 'riveted' or 'buttoned' mail. IF you want to have a real protection with mail - look on it in the way 'plate works' - the rings were more flexible -> Yes. But if you wear a gambeson under it, the Chain should mostly 'getting hard' BECAUSE of your other armor. Example: If you have a towel and you let it just 'fall down' your hand it cant really hold back anything that goes threw it. But if you 'spread' the towel it gets 'hard'. The same concept also works on chainmail. If the chain can 'hang around' it doesnt give you a good 'Shell' and wont hold back a stab, even when a stab doesnt go threw the armor, it will still hurt your organs by simply bashing them. Also - Chainmail was often used instead of scale-armor. While Scale-Armor mostly gave the better protection right? Now think why chainmail was more common used - and it wasnt because it was 'easier to build'
A hauberk is about 10kg, a full suit is over 20kg. Heavier (reinforced, hardened, dense-linked) types might weigh almost twice as much. Easy enough to lift, but that's lot of extra weight to haul on long marches, a lot of sore backs and legs and shoulders. It's enough weight to slow the wearer in and out of combat. Especially when added to weights of weapon, shield, supplies, etc. Soldiers and armies would not haul this extra weight around for a thousand years if it wasn't useful.
Then there's also mail armour's big brother; scaled armour. The roman legions of the eastern empire absolutely loved the stuff, since it had the same strengths as mail, but was also more resistant against piercing. Lorica Squamata might have been the pinnacle of Roman armour.
Very good analysis about how many people test chain mail wrongly. Totally agree. It seems even highly educated people get these medieval armor strength tests wrong.
Nice to see reasoned perspective with historic foundation. Too bad the less knowledgeable feel compelled chime in, thereby displaying their ignorance. Children are better served once they realize the joy in remaining silent as they gather information. This path leads to knowledge, though the path is long.
Also people seems to always think mail as being the intermediate one, between light and plate, whereas mail is freaking heavy! I think that a lorica segmentata is even 80% ligther. Mail is amazing, but also heavy and costly. Furthermore, I had learnt that the decline of mail in favor of plain steel (through cuirass, harnois, etc) was because arbalest and range weapon where more and more powerful
Chain mail plus gambeson is excellent armour. Chain mail on outside to protect against slashes. Gambeson as inside layer to absorb impact and disperse the force over larger area. Whereas chain mail by itself would transfer the energy of impact for more acutely than padded gambeson resulting in more severe injury. Gambeson alone vulnerable to slashes but better than nothing, Together, they compensate for each other's weak points.
As somebody who makes chainmail, the way you described the process of making butted mail is disgustingly wrong. You NEVER open rings from the center-out like you described, because doing so would warp the rings, and you'd never get a closed gap. What you do is take two pliers on either side, and twist with one going away from you, and another towards you. That way allows you to close the rings back in a fashion that allows you to completely close the rings. Also, butted mail is nowhere near as easy to take apart as you've described. While you *could* theoretically tear through a sheet of it with your bear hands if it was aluminum, you couldn't do so with steel unless you were VERY strong. Then there's also the part where you ignored the existance of soldered, and even welded, both of which can be just as, if not stronger than, riveted.
I just stumbled upon this video. Finally someone who understands physics. Just a point to add, they also try and chop it with the perfect swing with two hands at the perfect angle. I hate so many of the armour tests I see.
Hey! Pretty cool video. Just subscribed. I didn't know about the two types of chain mail. Although I'd be a far way off, I've sort of become interested in making some chain mail. I've only seen the non-riveted before. So, now I took a look at a few videos at how to make riveted chain mail. Before I thought that chain mail took a long time, but now I see it would take a SUPER long time!! Now, a question, I hope you might know the answer too, although maybe we'd have to be back in time to really know. You said that chain mail was widely used, all the time because it was so effective. HOWEVER it takes so long for just ONE shirt, I wondered could they really outfit ALL their knights? I saw a video, about how to make it and they quoted it would take about 900 hours to make just one fully riveted shirt. That's over a months time. And considering that you'd probably need to take the time to eat and sleep and all that, the overall time would be WAY more. My guess would be probably somewhere between two to four months. Granted, it was their livelihood back then I would assume, so they are probably more efficient. But even if they cut off 100 hours off of that, it would still take a very long time. Even if they had 10 makers, they would be pumping out only 10 every two to four months (if my estimate was accurate). So, my questions are, do you think the makers are missing out on some sort of quick trick to make it? Something they knew how to do that we forgot? Do you really think they could outfit all their troops back then? Maybe they worked together and did assembly line? I guess a better question is, do you know anything about the manufacturing history to chain mail?
A better simulation would be to put chain mail on a pig and hang it from a rope or chain so that way it would have an accurate reaction to being struck. Because even a spring type device would have a certain ammount of resistance before being pushed. Whereas if its hanging in mid air, then the only resistence, much like a real person, would be its own weight. So when done correctly, the testing of chai mail should be put with riveted chain mail put onto the body of a pig (or ballistics jelly might also work) along with all the padding and other things used with it and then hung by a heavy chain so as to hang straight down and have the proper give and an accurate reaction to being struck.
Mail was invented by the Celts of Cisalpine Gaul about 400 BC. It went out of favor because munitions plate, that is cheap mass produced plate (not to be confused with the custom made sets of nobles and the aristocracy) was made available in the late middle ages / renaissance. At least he covered the difference between butted and riveted rings.
One should also consider the quality of steel/iron used. In the historical context, many swords weren't as strong as modern reproductions. You can see many different modern steels flex and bend and retain their shape, but historical swords weren't always so.
And vs arrows? Explain early middle age high ogival pavise (protecting from neck to foot) while full plate knights use twho handed weapons with even no shield often.
What people also have to take into account, people didn't just wear mail on its own...they wore it in conjunction with other protective wear, such as layered cloth, leather, plated armor, etc...
chainmail is useful, it was even used by Celts in the Roman Period, and by the Roman Auxilaries (Support troops of Barbarians). The thing is, it takes a long time to repair or even produce when you compare it to a segmented plates. I did like your "gambeson vs leather armor" series, I can see padding being cheaper than metal or leather and much easier to produce. The Lorica Hamtata (Roman Chainmail) was competing against the "Lorica Segmenta" (Segmented plates). Both of course were better than breastplates. But, you work with the tools and materials at your disposal and the demand/need of the industry. Romans going off to war all the time needed more repair of their armor, which meant bends were easier to fix then chainmail. I would love to see a version of you comparing "Chain Mail" to Segment mail, and breastplates.
Cody's lab actually tested this. Only instead of riveted he welded the mail links entirely closed but also tested regular butter mail. The welded mail was significantly stronger.
I actually would use a chainmail as the inner layer and the stronger armor on the outside. so this way here if someone does break through my armor I still have the chainmail for them to work on. sure it would make it more hard for me to fight in combat but at lest I would last longer. I mean that was the point why they still use them for so long. it works as a inner layer armory as years pass by.
