I honk your tests gave a very good insight into how the “Mystery CHT knockoff” nozzle compares to the real version. As always, I love the detail and clearly explained steps and your good humor about everything. You're not alone in videos taking longer than anticipated to finish. We are plagues with that problem here as well!
I'm pretty sure you can use the "tuning_tower" command in klipper to automatically increment the speed at regular intervals - Hope that helps with testing next time. Great video!
Didn’t even think about that. I’m used to using that for Pressure Advance but you could absolutely use it that way. The method I presented could be used in Marlin firmware too though, which was part of my aim. Good call though. I’ll play with that. 👌🏻👌🏻
Yes I was just thinking this and it has the command for manual resonance testing TUNING_TOWER COMMAND=SET_VELOCITY_LIMIT PARAMETER=ACCEL START=1500 STEP_DELTA=500 STEP_HEIGHT=5
@@MandicReally Hey. Nice video. I replicated your test on my Creality printer but used a tuning tower test that comes with klipper. I used the following command to increase feedrate gradually with M220 S command TUNING_TOWER COMMAND=M220 PARAMETER=S START=100 FACTOR=7.14 After that I used my calipers to find the highest Z height where the print still looks good. Use this formula to calculate the highest useable feedrate Feedrate = starting feedrate + FACTOR * Z height measured in mm
A few folks have pointed out that the Klipper "TUNING_TOWER" function could be used to automate the file here. Excellent point that I forgot, check out the Klipper Documentation for more: www.klipper3d.org/G-Codes.html#tuning_tower For this purpose I feel the G-Code I generated still works better as it was a very easy file to just Click "Reprint" to continue using for testing. Great for shutting down, restarting, updating, and anything I needed to do while filming this video. But Tuning_Tower would be faster for 1 or 2 tests.
when I saw the knockoff CHT nozzle after the test.. i wondered to myself what would happen if you filed/countersunk the inlets further to make it like the legit CHT and whammo, you were already on top of it.. I love it!
Man, I know how some people can’t understand or relate with a person who has ADHD. Being up front to let others know is cool. I suffer from ADHD and can relate. I’m also a mechanical engineer that works in the aerospace industry building jets. It’s a struggle with me as well 🤣 but I let people know how my brain works too 😂 keep up the awesome work bro!!
Liked the video, here some interaction: 1. Mod the brass nozzle with a dremel poit tip instead. Put the tool in the drill ( not dremel] and turn it slowly. It has the angle closer to what cht used (i suspect they used 22° cone, dremel has nice tip mills of some 50° IIRC)
Hi, recently discovered your channel. You do such a fantastic job presenting material -- you're extremely thorough without being pedantic, and you're funny and the quality of your content is amazing. You're extremely talented and I'm a happy to give you a sub. I'm looking forward to all the content moving forward--- best wishes and can't wait to see you hit 100k+ subs!
Experimented myself with the clone CHT nozzles. I've compared them to a normal V6 clone. I'm using the 0.6mm variants and the CHT's are the Ali type with the copper slug in the middle. Unmodded the clone CHT was indeed slightly underperforming compared to the V6 clone. did the same mod, and after that, still no real improvement. So yes, I could have known after watching this video 😎. I will be center boring one CHT to do a final test (I have a lathe), but I'm pretty sure I will be going for the following setup; Standard V6 heater block with a clone volcano nozzle, with a extra M6 nut on it (CNC-kitchen showed that in one of his videos). It will perform almost as good as a volcano nozzle in a volcano heater block. Plus side to stay with the standard heater block is, that I san simply switch out my 0.6mm volcano nozzle with a standard 0.4mm nozzle if I want to without having to remove the heater block and its accessories.. Down side is that I have to change the heigth of my 3D-touch to be able to use ABL... 🤔
Honestly that’s part of the problem. Things I’d hoped to achieve while prints were running I couldn’t cause I had to babysit the printers and I was going stir crazy in my own head. 🤣😅
If you want better cooling in a V0.1, I've developed a Mini Stealthburner (unofficial) on TeamFDM that fits an Orbiter 1.5, 2.0 or a LGX Lite extruder.
As someone who just tried to drill out a clone CHT nozzle myself, glad you went the extra mile to try it too. The 0.6mm version I got was worse than a genuine V6 0.4mm which boggled me (using E3d Titan Aero extruder). Drilling it certainly improved the performance, but my drilling was a bit messier and at higher rates (15mm3/s) the filament came out with curls! I went back to my volcano setup.
You're getting crazy good results for the V6 nozzle there, i don't have experince with that brand of ASA but my CHT nozzle hits 40mm3/s in esun abs+ and sunlu and polymaker abs and i can only get 17mm3/s out of a v6 I can do 27mm3/s in anycubic PLA and i can only get 14mm3/s out of the same anycubic PLA in my v6, revo and copperhead, and 13mm3 out of a creality lined hotend. However, I've got the stepper motor current set fairly gentle and so it skips rther than grinds filamant or blows the ptfe tube up into a balloon if somehting goes wrong. I'd want to play with a load cell before being comfortable cranking up the current, and I'm limiting my real world print speed by the amount of die shrink i'm getting. This is worst with PET-G and I'm using this kind of test tower mostly to identify where die shrink is problematic. There's often a change in sheen visible on this kind of test tower that's handy for setting external perimeter speed.
That Polymaker ASA likes to flow. My default profile for it has the Extrusion Multiplier down around .93 to prevent over-extrusion. That said, the test is flawed in that the point of failure and the point of under-extrusion are likely two different things. So it’s likely I’d consider it a failure at a lower value than these tests indicate.
@@MandicReally yeah, I think I linked a test that makes blobs at different flow rates you can weigh elsewhere. I use a very similar tower and look at when they start to twist out of shape as one limit, and use whichever is lower. PET-G gives me the biggest difference and in real world prints I'm dropping the speeds even lower than the towers suggest because of die shrink. Good PLA just works, but if imt chasing flow rate for fast prints I'm always at or near the top of the recommended temperature range. If you're chasing quality then printing cooler might help with some features, but be aware that calibration prints are often layer time limited and give misleading results.
The real world difference of thermal conductivity between the two materials isn't as drastic as the numbers would suggest. I have plenty of Copper printer nozzles, they don't flow better than brass ones on average, just can handle higher temperatures. Couple that with the fact that the copper is in the middle of brass, so the heat would have to transfer through the brass to the copper. I doubt it is done for any reason other than convenience of the production method.
I am presently getting exactly the same kind of results with a cloned CHT with the copper slug. Sharpening that big flat surface in the middle makes a big difference. I am *also* finding that the cloned CHT has more back pressure than a traditional nozzle at lower extrusion speeds even when modded to sharpen the hole edges. It only begins to perform better than the traditional nozzle at high flow rates. You need an extruder with a good grip to get past this limitation.
I saw the same results using the CNC Kitchen volcano CHT adapter with a V6 length CHT nozzle compared to a full length volcano CHT. The pre-melt makes all the difference
Legend has it you can use the tuning_tower command to test anything you want. I'm not programming genius, so you'll have to Google it, but it might save you some time in future.
Running a CHT clone right now. Was like $15 for 6 nozzles. Cheap ones on Amazon. For the future it will be the CHT type nozzles or forget about it. It will be hard to burn through my other non CHT nozzles. I don't even want them in the machine. The cold pulls are clean and form to a point that doesn't require clipping before reloading the filament. If you go to a CHT or clone of it you will never go back to a regular nozzle.
I dremeled the entrance of the nozzle to thin the leading walls. I am using a knock off Bondtech extruder. Scary how fast it flows with smooth satin walls and glossy floors.
I am not Stefan... lmao love it subbed thank for the science I feel a liquefier tube style hot end is coming our way soon (like the stratasys but open source) but do have serval CHT's and can confirm they are 30 flows with 6. your modded one is 3x better than the cht copy as long as the filament is molten upto a 22.5 deg turn is not that bad but the wall is always a wall.... cheers 22.5 deg- 45 deg is the optimal range for taper angles like the real CHT
It's a bit of thread necromancy, but: Prusaslicer and many others have the capability to add speed changes etc. to the gcode. In Prusaslicer, you need to slice the file once, then go to the layer, you want to add the change, click the plus icon on the slider and add the desired change in speed, temp.. whatever... It is kind of what you did manually in the code file, because you need to add the code as well. But: you have a visual help to find the right layer to do the change in.
I was wondering how you managed to get 30mm^3/s out of the genuine CHT, then I went back and saw that you used Polymaker ASA. That's a great filament! 😊
I was wondering what would happen if you drilled a 0.4mm hole from the nozzle end. It would most probably go off course but if it did remain central that would get rid of the flat edge and give another hole for the plastic to flow through.
I think someone pointed out that running a print in Vase Mode & using Tuning_Tower can cause issues due to processing. I’ve not tested it yet as I forgot about it when I did this. Also the the method I showed can be used in any of the big 3 firmwares, so for that I still like it.
Great vid! Throwing it back to Stefan and CNC kitchen, he has a webside where you can make flow test blow patterns. Buy a milligram scale (available below $100) and weigh the blobs. The test is fast to print and the weight of the blobs is directly proportional to the extruded amount. Did one or two for cht nozzle on standard dragon using different temperatures in a single night.
for measuring under extrusion before complete failure, you could have measured the thickness on the samples you made and plotted it against starting line thickness. You would have to cut up the model obviously at the "speed change lines"
I’m fairly sure I said that in the video and noted it would have added a lot of time to the testing procedure that I simply don’t have. It’s doable but time consuming.
@@MandicReally i have a mikd condition of yours so I could have missed it :) great video by the way. Love youre content. I also find my self "just another xy"
Honestly, some of the cht clone nozzles work better than the real deal, the copper core they cut into the cht insert actually works really good and holds a ton of thermal energy. Tell ya what though...thermal paste on a hotend... That's a new one to me. I would have thought copper to copper connection would be about as good as it gets. I've got an idea, what if you cut in a small 1.75mm center hole, directly in the middle, so the edges melt the filament a little before it hits the split. Might help it work better.
The goals of these is to increase flow rate of your 3D Printer hot end. You "need" one when you are running into flowrate limitations. Usually due to using larger nozzle diameters and/or higher speeds printing. I found that a standard E3D V6 nozzle in that budget hotend is good up to 125mm/s print speed (maybe more), so it isn't a very common need. You can see me discuss it a hair more in last week's video: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-GnSyWqZycMw.html
It seems like the other variable is the heat transfer of aluminum versus copper, and brass versus copper. The center of that opening in the clone is likely not keeping hot enough, so the filament is hitting a wall, so to speak.
On paper yes copper conducts better than aluminum or brass. In actuality I think it’s been shown pretty regularly that it is a marginal difference on printer components. I’ve found little to no real benefit between the two myself. My Biqu H2 has an Aluminum heater block from Phaetus and that hotend pushes 50% more flow than it is rated for on a a regular basis.
I just tried a clone with copper insert and all metal heatbreak. The combination was horrible. It clogs constantly. It looks like I’ll have to drill those holes too.
You can quickly measure for a drop in wall thickness on a test print like that by using a dial indicator over a small-radius (I'd recommend something BELOW a 1/8"/3.2mm radius/ 1/4"/6.4mm diameter) base (i.e. a small ball, or piece of round-bar mounter horizontally). Align & adjust the dial indicator so it shows "0" when it is just touching the base, then you can run the test piece over the base & the dial indicator will show you the exact wall-thickness of each layer as it squeezes between the indicator & base. I know this sounds a but complicated, but once you have the dial indicator, you could easily 3d print a stand for it & a base to glue a BB on top of; then spend 3 minutes assembling & then measure test prints at somewhere around 300 layers per minute (depending, of course, on exactly how OCD you want to be about watching the needle move for each individual layer)
As it is printed in ASA and only a single perimeter, minor war page induced by shrinkage is likely. Every one I printed was slightly warped in the wall. The only real way I see would be breaking the layers below the failure and measuring your way down step by step.
@@MandicReally Hmm, I'm thinking of arranging the indicator and base to look kinda like two dull pencils with their tips just touching each other. If you cut a vertical strip out of a test print's wall, it could be easily run in between the two for super-accurate measuring
@@roberthercules3159 sorry I skimmed the comment while I’m working on other things so I misunderstood. Not a bad idea really. Little rigging to make it happen but totally doable. Interesting concept to say the least. Hmmm🤔
@@MandicReally glad I could help. P.S. If you did a little more work in CAD, you could 3D print a rig to hold the BB & dial indicator on 2 towers, with a gap in between the towers that the test print could be pushed down between, that way the print wouldn't need to be cut at all to test it. If you want, I could probably put together something like that on onshape or similar & send you an STL file for it, if you give me some contact info to send it to.
It would be better to test that CHT nozzle can have better layer adhesion. Considering it melts core of filament, may be even clone has better layer adhesion than stock V6 at same flow rate?
Interesting point. I noted zero layer adhesion issues but didn’t test for it. Would require printing different test prints and building a testing fixture. Maybe eventually I can justify that, but I cannot today unfortunately.
I've been researching hard on this topic, I am very curious about Volcano CHT in a old Volcano heatblock. Specifically if a dragon/etc is that much better at that point?
Hello nice video , I think you can add m220 cmd in the slicer if you using superSlicer or prusaSlicer add custom + button like filament color change ( right click / add custom gcode ) .
Simple version: set it to run at some speed. Then sit and watch it and bump the speed up with the klipper pad until it pukes. Then turn it back to where it corrects and runs. The Klipper pad will tell speed real time.
This data shows that a hotend alone does not dictate flow. Technically the entire extrusion portion dictates it. Nozzle, heatbreak, hotend, ptfe tube, extruder, and reverse Bowden if you have one. Resistance in any of them can reduce flow. Getting numbers like these isn’t about just having data points. It’s about testing the useful range of a machine. Data collected on a test stand may relate to that, but will never be a 1:1 comparison.
bimetal cht clone and copperblock does help v6 and mk8 just as much as dragon HF...its more about heat trasfer limit of material difference of aluminium and brass block than just heatbrake ..yes that heatbrake does preheat it but that can also end up as oozing and excess stringing...meanwhile copperblock and copper nozzle does transfer heat better and that way perform pretty damn well :)
Very interesting findings and great in depth research on that weird nozzle. For an easier an more precise way to test hotend flow rate (as you asked for at the end), check out Stefans (CNCKitchen) recentish video on the topic. The general idea is to, instead of printing an actual part, extrude a known quantity of filament at different speeds/flow-rates (just into a blob) and check with a scale whether the requested amount of filament was extruded or underextrusion happened. Much faster _and_ more precise.
Yea you just need a good scale for that and I didn’t have one on hand. Also I like tests that test practically. That is excellent for data points but I wonder how it translates to use. Would shine a light on the under-extrusion I was referring to though.
@@MandicReally When I've done the weight tests, I've found they're good for finding an upper limit but that actual printing will be at a lower feed rate. I'm guessing that's because extruding in the air requires less pressure and loses less heat, while squishing the plastic into the previous, already cooled layer will take some pressure and remove more heat. TLDR, after the weight test you would still want to do the real world print test.
@@Cookiecad Yea, if I start doing weight tests I'll only add them as a secondary test, not eliminate the printing tests. I agree, real world scenarios are just different. Tests for tests sake are valuable for data gathering but need to be viewed in a specific way to see their true value. All of this testing is "Flawed" in that it requires MUCH more testing and control to be truly viewed for just the numbers. Extruder, filament path, the filament being extruded, part cooling, etc. So many factors effect the results.
@@MandicReally I'm actually really curious how much the extruder plays a part. On my direct drive ender style hotends and cheap extruders I only get 17 mm^3. Do you think the 30 you were getting was due to the extruder? Or does that machine have a larger melt zone like a volcano? One of these days I'll need to try using a better extruder with the same setup to see what effect it has.
@@Cookiecad It is just a variable that can cause issue. I doubt it would skew results upward, but possibly down. Yes the results I was getting in the 30+ Range were with the Phaetus Dragon High Flow hotend, which uses a longer melt zone that starts in the heatbreak to generate more flow. Thus why I was saying that the un-modified Knock-off nozzle performed better there. The filament was already melted by the time it reached the nozzle so the "wall of brass" in the knock-off nozzle didn't effect the already molten plastic. I'm running some testing on an entirely Stock Ender 3 right now. The crappy plastic extruder with straight cut single extruder gear is slipping when trying to push the flow higher. These more advanced extruder assemblies all work around pushing more filament with less effort. Either through Gear Reductions or enlarged drive gears (or both). I've not directly tested it but have seen others test and show that just different extruder drives can cause flowrate changes. Not massive ones, not something I'd go changing just based around, but measurable differences. It is a bit hard to articulate why I feel this is the case, but basically it comes down to mechanical advantage pushing non-molten filament into the melt zone. Stronger extruder drives can overcome resistance of filament that isn't melting rapidly enough better than more "basic" ones. Obviously you reach the limit of the hotends ability to melt filament at some point, but combined with all the variables it can change the results of what that limit is. It is kind of like the extruding in thin air test. When all the variables are combined, things will change versus just testing one single component. Which is why tests like this are hard for some folks to relate to. "Well on my machine that hotend flowed way less!", yea because your variables are different.
Requires a good scale (bought one it sucked, didn’t have one to do this video). And I also prefer tests that return results while printing. Stefan’s test is excellent for detailed tests of limits and generating data but I always wonder about tests like that applied to real world work. Actually printing and object and running a test are often different. Granted his method would show the underextrusion I know I’m missing.
been seeing these and similar on aliexpress for a while now and wondered how they perform. I forgot about the klipper tuning tower as well, but can you really not do the gcode post processing in the slicer? it's just called a speed tower in cura
Didn't I see you on BME back in the day? Just getting into 3dstuff in the last while. Thanks for the testing and offering up to the best of your ability, objective results.
@@MandicReally I dunno if you saw me either - Jesse Star - Were all beyond old school these days and turned into ancient, as far as that community goes.
Uhhh there is thermal paste for the nozzles and you tighten it up when its hot to ? Iv done none of this XD well ill add thast to my list of things to do to my printer
I have jyers firm ware on my v2 and i can agust acc and jurk on the printer, says max it 1000 can I push it feather then that just want a a bit faster then stick printer
You got it. OrcaSlicer (SoftFever still then) didn’t have the test when I made this video. I now use the OrcaSlicer version. The only thing I dislike is it isn’t easy to determine the exact value based off the results. But it’s still what I use now.
I'd just drill a 1.5mm-1.7mm step into the entire thing at the top tbh to fix it. that way it almost acts the way the dragon high flow did! but I have another variant of this clone (a hardened one with a brass insert in the hole it has) and it works great! I love it. still not enough for 400mm/s on my poor Prusa mk3s (yes...) so I had to get a volcano and then do a volcano CHT clone! that one can do almost 25-30? I'm confused to. my v6 with a v6 nozzle could only do 12 at best. with the clone CHT mine did 18-20?
I am not convinced🤔 you say Original Bondtech performs better while CNCKitchen's measured results are opposite... even using longer heatblock area will help or even copper nuts... I don't think nozzles have too much quality impact or increase flow rate on prints but heatblock material,heating cartridge power,vibration and slicer settings are things we should look into more😉
I ran these tests at 250C (as is the downloadable G-code). I usually print this material more like 235-245C so I bumped just a bit to give a better chance of flow.
Thanks for sharing this. You and I both are severe ADD. I also medicate with good old Monsters. Its great to see another bald, ADD 3D Printing Nut. Keep up the great work and I will keep looking forward to your next video.
*Most Hardened-Steel clone nozzles need to be run hotter and then they run just fine. I run 10 to 15% hotter. if you get stringing lower the heat a little until it works.*
Yea but they released the source in a form I can’t really work with. I updated the comments on that review but I’ll be ditching the mainboard and building a new machine out of it.
@@MandicReally i tried prusa slicer and superslicer but since i was already used to cura i ended up sticking with cura, plus i didnt like the fact that i couldnt make a shortcut for superslicer.
If they drilled just the center on this nozzle and left the rest it would have essentially "fins" slicing into the material transferring heat deeper inside. We are yet to see the final nozzle design.
I was a little apprehensive about the channel due to knuckle tats and stuff, but you're smart and have good info here - you're not the "80% correct" like a bunch of the other 3D printing RU-vidrs are; you're absolutely spot on with your info. Massive thumbs-up, your stuff is high quality and you're doing good stuff here. Hope to meet you at MRRF/ERRF some day!
i am sitll satt he starrt, i hope he sands/dremels out the middle, as people have improcved it a bunch yaay i am glad he did it, but still wish he did ti inthe high flow hot end,
23.77 cmm/s is way bewond V6 capability. I'd not get higher than 12 cmm/c. Probably you were able to print well up to 23.77 just because your extruders were powerful enough to press unheated meterial into the nozzle. The best methodology I have seen was introduced by the guy named MirageC here: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-dAJlLWX0Few.html
