hi tim, just wondering, for your software dev course, does it guarantee a remote job or at least you guys can assist me in getting one after i finish the course? im not from the US.
@@lycan2494 yes the program has an entire section that breaks down how to land a job from crafting your resume and linkedin to showing you the types of roles to apply to.
Stack overflow actually has a survey where most professional software engineers have a CS degree. CS degree people are still preferred over people with any other degree or no other degree. People hiring software developers prefer people with CS degree or people with Engineering, Math or Physics degree. You don't need a degree is a myth perpetuated by online influencers and bootcamps to sell their courses.
People that don’t get a college education have to come to these RU-vid pages to learn more often than not. It’s in their interest to convince people that a degree is not necessary lol.
The stats overall demonstrate that people with a degree earn AT LEAST million dollars more over their life time. Even if you took out 100k in debt, you're still earning that money back. Also if you go to college on a campus, just being able to network with people before they've hit their success etc. There's so many opportunities at even mid tier schools to expand your skills and set you up for getting a job it's not even funny. You just have to take the time to actually leverage the career fairs, the clubs etc.
@ceejay1353 I don't actually believe everyone should go to college. Also in Anglo Saxon countries there is a push for everyone to go to college which has lowered standards for everyone. I think it's best to have apprenticeship program even for IT related stuff, and more people should go to that instead of college. Also useless degrees in Arts and sciences should be banned.
@@rkWilson fact is, most people that go to these bootcamps and apprenticeships probably couldn't hack it in a college computer science degree. The amount of math and engineering you need to learn to understand the theory behind this stuff is not something you will pick up easily teaching yourself or in a bootcamp. Hence why people who get their degrees make significantly more money on average than those who don't, especially in this field
It is actually not a myth. We have been instructed by HR to appoint a person if they have the required experience, even if they do not have a degree. I do not have a degree and I am the highest paid developer in our company, where there are some developers with degrees.
Well obviously. If you have 1000 applicants and 200 of them have degrees, beyond that there is no difference then you will focus on the 200 with a degree
As a CS degree holder, this is actually a really good video about the topic. And I really agree with the part of you still need to learn outside the degree
It is because you went to an unremarkable school. If you went to a decent school you wouldn't be making this statement. I have seen the difference between a top tier and a lower tier school first hand in Computer Science. :)
@@gdawg77123 so have I. Even top tier graduates are still learning a lot in the workforce. I’ve actually worked with those top tier grads and they have made things worse because of ego. But that’s okay, we all are learning something in the workforce
@@cody_codes_youtube I can still pick up your insecurity here. What you learn in the field will always be trivial, you get your core in a very good school. And yes, school quality matters, especially in skill jobs like this. A good school doesn't mean you are competent, but it is one of the main pillars. People from unremarkable schools always try to compensate with non-academic field-specific stuff. If you came from a top tier school, you wouldn't think like this. It is as simple as that. Of course, you will learn outside of your degree. But your competency will come from the rigor you've been through in your degree, given that you paid attention in your school..
@@gdawg77123 ha, okay man. I’m just going off my own experience. No need to get weird on RU-vid calling people out for not good enough schools, name calling, etc. You’re not wrong, but your stance is overly aggressive and if you have the experience you’re alluding to, then you should know it’s all nuanced and depends on the situation.
Back in the day....(aka late 70's early 80's). IT gigs were pretty easy to get. I "dropped out" from a "big 10" school with a background in EE and CS. I took a job in Fortune-500 company on the East coast in IT Computer Operations. The shop was implementing DEC systems into their remote locations. I was one of the few people there who had extensive (albeit academic) training on DEC systems. One year later, they promoted me into "development". They kept promoting me...and I stayed there for 4+ years. I was also lucky that my "boss" (aka project leader) was also my technical "mentor". That's when I really learned about development vs. production, platform interfacing, real world "problems" and my favorite...memo writing and user-level communications. Mentoring, speaking&writing and overall "social comfort" (with other peers) are really important in your first job.
You don't need a Computer Science degree per se but it is a lot easier for you to get a job compared to others - all else being equal. Math, Physics, Engineering degrees are somewhat equivalent for most companies. 1. Fundamentals of Programming - It takes a bit of time to actually understand well. Usually, 1 year in a college setting. A 3 month bootcamp is too short for most people. 2. Data Structures and Algorithms - Very important class in tech interviews. 3. Mathematics - A CS program usually requires up to Linear algebra. This is extremely important for machine learning. Statistics is very important for Data Science. 4. Computer Science - Its good to actually know how a computer works from the electrical components, logic gates, memory, machine code, Assembly, operating systems, compilers. Its like having deep knowledge in Biology and Chemistry for a healthcare professional worker. 5. Electives and Specialties - There are programming specialties that are very difficult to obtain without college. Computer Engineering, Bioinformatics, Quant Finance, Physics, Operations Management, Data Science. 6. Networking. Many of your classmates will be your peers. They may help you along your career with advice, referrals, and information. There are clubs that help with tech interviews. There are events like Hackathons, competitive programming. There is also Alumni support, meetups, mentoring.. 7. Career Resources. Establish collegeds are feeders to the big companies like MAANGs, Consulting, Investment Banking, Government, Military, Fortune 500s, etc.
I’d say go to community college first and get the pre-reqs out the way then transfer to a 4 year. At a cc you can easily knock off 60 credits of a 120 credit program fairly quick (just make sure the classes transfer to your desired 4-year). It’s much cheaper and flexible than a 4 year so you have more time to learn additional skills and work a job alongside doing school whilst saving a lot of money.
A portfolio is better than a degree. As a software company owner, I've met with multiple local universities looking for opportunities to hire grads or offer internships. The curricula are generally theoretical or outdated tech where they attempt to be hands-on. Sitting on the sidelines for 4-5 years in a fast-moving field like software is obviously going to leave you behind. To pay $100K-$200K for that downtime could permanently derail your personal finances. I'd only recommend a degree if you do it in parallel with working on learning skills on practical projects which could help you launch a product or build a good portfolio.
You’re correct in some CS programs being antiquated, but also a degree gives you great foundational knowledge, and will allow you to be more flexible in a shifting market. Also, the barrier to entry is rising, due to the influx of new talent. Companies need to filter the applicant pool and unfortunately the self-taught are usually the first filtered out.
Hi, what or which course would you recommend? I’m an Optometrist, but want to learn to code, to improve my understanding of our website and also to have technology working along selling eyeglasses online. Thank you for your help in advance.
I have yet to see a job posting for data science that does not have a degree requirement. A lot of them require a minimum of masters too. Which is dumb because almost all my learning has come from Codecademy and building my own projects. I think no degree is more for SWE.
You can definitely do data science without a degree. The problem is I’m your competition……… The military veteran with a BA Economics and a graduate degree Analytics/Public Administration... Several years of professional experience and an applied point of view… And I’m not even the stiffest competition. So, you’re spot on.
@@jeli780 the basics python crash course. then some freecode camp. then i decided to make projects, using full stack Django. When I was lost, i would see a youtube video, chat gpt or read the documentation. Basically 80% actually building projects, 20% theory.
@@jeli780 80% building projects, 20% studying theory. i started with freecodecamp, then started building projects using fullstack Django. Whenever i stuck, i searched youtube, googling, chat gpt.... I didnt pay for anything. When I created a portfolio, I found a job after 22 days of applications as a backend laravel developer.
I used to think back in january 2021 that I'd take a few CS courses at a local institute of technology and get a certificate and work as a software dev. Turns out after 24 credits, I realized I needed to know WAY more. Now, with 54 credits under my belt, I have a junior dev job, but I still feel I should know more if I ever want to work as a senior dev and plan to finish at least another 21 credits part time. But I'll probably realistically take another 30 credits or more.
1. You don't need a CS degree if your only goal is to find a programming job. 2. But to get into a top company, it's far easier if you have a cs degree from a top tier university. 3. People always say skills trumps degree. I agree, but i'm not sure why not both? It's really competitive to land a job in a top company. You do want every edge you can get. So for me, I want a top cs degree + great skills at the same time.
I don't have a cs degree and never took part in any boot camps and I could never be more thankful to be self taught. I find myself thinking of all the problems we face very differently than those with formalized education. I also do more than fine in the job market and outcompete those with degrees or boot camps. Additionally I've done hiring in software and also prefer those without formalized education. I find that those who are self taught are much better at adapting to the problems they need to handle rather than relying on problems they have been taught to solve. When I hire people, I don't even think it's a question, 99% of the time, I would rather hire someone who spent the 4 university years on building projects of their own and maybe took on a few very entry level jobs (even better if they tried building their own startup). Those people are miles better than people with formalized education
There are colleges in Europe which includes practical work experience as part if their program so once you graduate, you actually have both the degree and experience to land a job and to make it even better it's totally free for EU citizens and in fact many countries here in the EU offer free University degrees such as Germany and Malta.
However, the programs in Germany are exceptionally hard in the first semester, as the college is trying to trim the fat. Alone at TUM the failure expectancy is about 70%
ANY ONE CAN CODE BUT DEGREES PROVIDE PROBLEM SOLVING SKILLS ALONG WITH MATH. plus it provides high demand job security there is wide range of fields in computer science. computer architecture foundations of network and ML and AI and having analytic foundations really matters in problem solving and mathematical solutions in computer science
I am 42 I landed a job that is a hybrid network engineer : software engineer. I started college at 40 because job paying for it. I am almost done 6 months left. I would say I have learned like Tim said about 25% useful things. I also agree it takes a certain person to do this. I don’t think I am a good coder but I am a good network engineer so combining software makes me acceptable.
I love my degree. I learned so much in a great structure. I commuted so not much debt at all. I think I became a well rounded person from it. And I agree you also still need to learn programming outside of school to be valuable.
I went back to college in January of 2023 for a BS in computer software technology. I have zero regrets going back and I know it’ll give me an edge over people without it a degree. Where my hang up will be in my opinion is building my own projects.
Very subjective and based off of the company. I'm a software engineer, without a degree. I don't even have a high school diploma, but I'm being picked over people with degrees due to my experience.
@@ghost9031 that’s awesome, I’m happy for you. I don’t know how I’ll fair after graduation, and as of right now I don’t feel confident enough to actually apply for internships. I’ve had two classes that are specified towards my major.
@@ghost9031 respectfully speaking youre branding an outlier as if its the norm. yes there are people like you but thats not the norm most people in tech that have the high positions paying the big dollars have degress. we all know you can get a job maybe but do people want a job or do they want the top tier career?
Not a great take, a few years ago this was the case when there was jobs for online coursera programmers, but the fundamentals you learn in computer science are far more advanced than what you learn for programming online. Mathematics is another benefit, knowing mathematics helps a lot with making high quality software, anyone can make software but high quality software is completely different. Anyone who is able to learn programming on their own is only going to excel while doing a degree since there's plenty of time to study on your own as well. On average, no CS degree, you'll probably be looking to entry level jobs with little to no growth, and much of which will be replaced soon by AI.
I’m doing a computer science degree. But I’ll still tell people to self study or do boot camps. Employers only care if you can do the job, not what certifications you have. For people that doesn’t want to go the college/uni route, there’s still hope, you just got to grind and find that grit. Good luck my fellow future techs.
Both my husband and I are self taught software developers. Both needed around 6 months of free bootcamps (like freecodecamp and such) and free youtube tutorials to get a first job. We never paid for any courses or degrees. I did it first while being on a maternity leave and now I am 3+ years in the industry. Hubby did it recently and this is his 1st week in a junior software developer role. We are both around 40 y.o. and we both have degrees and careers in Engineering (buildings) - so before coming to IT we were both technical minded. Guys, don't waste your time on degrees, especially if you already have life experience and other careers. Good luck!
I been learning as a self taught software developer. This road is very iffy because as I learn more I realize how much I didn’t learn. Your roadmap is very crucial and I think I missed a lot of logic learning as I learned how to build things where logic is not discussed. I also spent more time learning the framework than the language it was based on. My advice to any new self taught programmer is learn the foundation of your language. Study logic and algorithms before you want to build the next Facebook or RU-vid.
100%agree with Tim on every point made... especially as i worked in University for 5years as a dorm manager with students that fall under all thise points being made upfront and personally... heard all the stories n narratives firsthand
As a mid-level network engineer it's the same with computer science degrees. Most of them still need their CCNA cert in order to be taken seriously in the networking world. And honestly they only really need the cert if they know for a fact they love networking and only want to do that.
Network engineering jobs are diminishing fast. Cloud computing has taken over. Noone is configuring routers and switches anymore. CCNA is pretty much useless and basic networking knowledge is sufficient for you to work around the cloud.
@@nathanliew2103 Agree DevOps is rising fast and more in demand. Still dont think network administration will go away any time soon, many companies still prefer having own server's so need for more switches and route's will stay. However cloud's are still hosted someone in data center's that need to be still operated and mainteined, but considering DevOps relies on server's that are set up in companies like AWS, MIcrosoft etc.. that provide Cloud services the need for actual data center's for general organization's (non-tech related for example) will definitely diminish. So yes, network admin's will still be needed but for companies providing cloud services. Dont think network administrators and engineer's will diminish for hosting providers in every country though. So in the end we can agree that there will be less demand for network engineer's and admins unless companies provides hosting services localy or globably.
You really think that cloud engineers who make a lot of money don’t at least have a CCNA level of understanding of computer networks? The cloud isn’t some magical entity that gets rid of the need for network engineers.
@@domferris9963 I mean you really don't need a CCNA. I used to be a cloud engineer and now a devops engineer and I don't think I'm paid less at all and I think CompTIA Net+ for example is way more than what you need. I don't even take that since AWS SysOps for example covers less that that. Moving to the cloud is essentially getting rid of network engineers because you no longer need people to configure router and switches as it abstracts the physical layer
i did a CS degree, and your points are right, i had to do projects on the side and made sure i did as much internships that i got, and the last intenrship i did i made sure i pursured a full-time at the same company.
To anyone watching and finance is the issue, i highly suggest what Im doing. Uber and Arizona State have a partnership where if you complete 2000 trips and keep good ratings, Uber covers 100% of tuition. The computer science degree requires at least at 24 composite on ACT. Ive been admitted and start in the fall. Super pumped!
Honestly, the 2 year gap sounds great, but I advice against it, it sounds like you would have the time of your life and all the time in the world to develop your passions, but for most people it's just a period of nothing, better then to just go get the degree immediately, I took a gap year, and a job, but I never had any energy pursuing my passions after the job, so it was wasted time
I only has AS degree in cs. It was very harder for me to find the first job compare to bs and master. Now, I am solution architect with 8 years experience, I can handle most of the software engineer position, system admin, data engineer, infrastructure engineer, cloud engineer. It is all about your self learn and year of experience. When you reach enough year of experience and hand on everything, nobody care about your degree. Why I didnt go for BS and Master at this point, first it too expensive, second the knowledge at school right now is behind the market at least 10 years. But for young generation, you do need a degree to find a job. When you jump into the market, it is about how you can present your self. The degree is just a part of the game, employers want to see your experience through intern, self projects. The key to win the game is make your self value in their eyes.
I have done all the bad things in this video. I went to college for comp sci. Didn’t get a job also didn’t graduate. Also took too long. Man if I could do that sh** over again… but now my life is f***’d
As a Bioengineer, from the outside looking in, it’s always felt like the way to really get the most value out of a CS or CEng degree was with people who were actually specialized in another major STEM area first (think Chem/Bio/Nuc/Electrical Eng), and then got the CS specialization. I had a friend describe it as speaking multiple languages: Yes, she could try to become an interpreter or teacher and focus on languages alone, but what sets her apart now is her unique duo of (in her case) Electrical Eng (and controls) + her CS background to empower it.
Could you make a video listing what you need to learn outside of getting your computer science degree? I’m about to graduate with a computer science degree, but you’re right I still feel like I’m missing something.
While I was in college working on a CS major and strengthening my program design and structure knowledge and work to a deadline is to write programs for my accounting class study assignments. To write the programs I had the learn the accounting topic to the point I could create a program for it. The deadline was having completed the program before moving on to the next accounting topic. This really sharpened my computer knowledge and skills, plus making it easy to be prepared for any accounting class tests. Learning to become an effective computer designer/programmer does require self disapline and initiative to succeed in this career.
This is really interesting. Seems to be some weird communication breakdown within your guys industry. I am a mathematics/chemistry major with the intention of going all the way to a PHD. So when I watch videos like this on a different subject it seems like many students who just want to get a job coding are either required or feel they are required to get a degree that would normally be for people pursuing advanced sciences. I would have thought that some kind of software engineering pathway would be better for people who want jobs in coding/programming. I also feel that there is a cool factor that attracts people to the tech industry. These same people may also not be the kinds of people who enjoyed science and mathematics at school.
CS degree is a well sought after degree in this world. Most cybersecurity jobs even prefer someone with CS plus certs. CS teaches a deeper understanding of anything that involves computers in general.
Anyone else here doing Computer Science but NOT planning on becoming a software developer? I'm a Mathematics and Comp Sci major, plan on applying for PhD after I graduate. I feel like getting a CS degree to become a developer is kind of a waste of the theoretical information, better to do a business/engineering degree and teach yourself to code.
same here, incoming freshman for computer science but i plan on going into cybersecurity, getting certs during my 4 years but honestly I don’t know if this is the right route to take :/
Nice video. In Israel, annual tuition is about $3500, for universities. The university tuition is much LESS than college tuition. Most students are veterans of an obligatory military service, so they have a fund for ex-soldiers. That fund can only be used for academic or professional studies, or starting a business. The fund, usually, covers most of the total degree tuition. So, generally speaking, they finish their studies aroung age 26, with no debt. Finding a job, however, is quite difficult without prior experience, even for those who are universitiy graduates.
In the past no degree but experience counted for something. I think a degree shows you have an interest in it, by itself it won’t guarantee you anything. I think having a degree, certifications, and project portfolio is all important. All of it combined shows you have a passion for this.
My very Low Math knowledge will not Be my Downfall in going to school for Computer Science. I’m about to start my Fall semester, and I’ll be Very humbled heading in.
This video is very missleading to be honest. How HR of companies filter applications is that they almost always prefer a someone with a college degree. It is as simple as that. Will they sometimes hire you because there is no better alternative ? Yea sure but if they have two similar candidates one with a degree one without 99% of the time they will take the one with the degree.
Your advice is funny 🤣 There are things called Certificates and Diplomas you can earn from a Community College in 6 months to 12 months. I'm earning an Associates but I get a diploma after two semesters. Four courses (12 transferrable credits) cost $800 and financial aid is covering that. Taking Python, Programming Logic, Information Computing and Database Management, and Windows Operating Systems. Unless you're rich financial aid covers most of Community College expenses. While enrolled as a community college student there are many perks and discounts. Discounted Adobe and Microsoft software, reduced gym membership costs, etc. You are offered internships, work study opportunities, and networks. While learning, I'll also be working with an IT advisor to develop my portfolio. IMO certificates from accredited programs are waaaaaaay better ROI than taking a bootcamp course from a guy like this. That would be a real waste of time and money.
As a senior in my degree, this feels like a good reality check lol I looked at interview questions showing code that we never did for our coding classes, so I'll have to catch up on all the leetcode lol I've recently started on building practical projects too which is a start
I'm a rising Junior and CS major. It feels like I've wasted 2 years of college since I didn't even know I was supposed to be Leetcoding, making projects, etc. It's scary and I feel really behind. Here's hoping we're all alright.
I pretty much understand people landing a job without a degree, everyone needs their own income, but when it comes to specific topics, like machine learning, it is very frustrating to see that, at least where I live, so many people make it to big companies without knowing calculus and with poor statistics knowledge. Nowadays, it seems that knowing a framework has a lot more value than having good theory knowledge. What I mostly see in companies is people doing their "cake recipe" they learn in internet without any idea of what is behind that.
This man is talking a lot about programming and their are programming degrees, where you learn how to code and become developers. Computer Science is a good degree, but looking at CS for coding doesnt seem to be a good comparison. WGU has a degree for coding. Honestly I just don't understand the comparison here.
According to APLU, on average, people with a college degree make $1.2 million dollars more over their lifetime vs someone without a degree. Now what would that say about a person with a CS degree? I imagine it's alot higher. Also you can slash your debt considerably by going through community college for 2 years, then transferring. While there are some people that were able to land a job without a degree, there are many that never landed a job. Something to think about.
the technology in the the manufacturing area is old. there are job advertisements for cs degreed people to work in this area. i knew a person who got a degree in cs in the factory i worked at once. she was doing quality control on documentation. yuc!. she went and got another job at another factory but they wanted her to learn python. i havent found a position in software programming yet. although i have been learning python for the past 4 yrs. i have many years experience in electronics and combining both would be the ideal job.
I'm 30 about go into CS because the route I went is a dead end. I have a lot of office experience and customer service experience. I am company ready, just need a degree that will make me more money.
I just wish I could get a clear sign if all the work I’m putting into learn is going to have a ROI. I am self teaching and it’s coming along. But all the Reddit and RU-vid videos discourage if all this time is going to be wasted if I can not get a job.
In India if we want to get a job we need a Degree most of the Company preferred actually in My state CS degree is cheap $1500max For 4 year but alongside we have to gain Knowledge about Programming,Data Science,AI ML etc to get job ready as CS degree is based on Theory not Practical but at the End Skills Matter.
Hi I love your content and mind set , I want to ask your opinion on my correct state I am 35 years old and I entered this world a year ago , I did a fullstack course and I don't have a degree at all , do you think it's possible to get a job at my state?
Unfortunately a lot of positions requires you to have a bachelors degree to even get at the door. But it is true a bachelors degree (on any field) doesn’t guarantee financial success.
I recommend taking a slower approach to school if you actually want to do it. Spend equal amout of time working on job skills and work on an associates then a bachelor's to save money.
How does one know if they're "too stupid" to learn programming vs needing to work harder to overcome the learning curve? Based on the video if you arent a natural at logic & math then maybe better to become an electrician or contractor?
Question for y’all. I have a bachelors degree already in Communication Science but I wanna switch to IT and I’m thinking to pursue a Masters degree in CS or Software Engineering. Right now I am studying all engineering concepts and basic from CS to be ready for that. Do you guys think is a good idea or should I start from 0 with a bachelors in CS ? Thanks
Companies just want anyone with a bachelor's degree. Preferably in science or math. On top of that have some proof of experience with projects, contributions, or work
Having a degree means you know how to learn. Fast. Without a degree you can also learn fast as well but the employer will have a harder time determining this.
I got my associates in applied science / computer programming this may . I’m still wondering if I should get my bachelors . Currently , working on projects
Get the degree if you have an actual passion for learning, not because you expect Uni/College to carry you off prestige alone - much less because parents told you to do so. People that have a passion or pursuit of an endeavor will continue growing from sheer curiosity, likely leading them to create a lifestyle out of ardor.
Realistically almost everyone in the industry has a degree. Don’t overspend on it and work a part time job while in school. You have a long career and investing in education is smart. Tim is an outlier, and that’s great. But it’s almost never a bad idea to get an education, especially in a field like computer science.
*Laughs in European* My CS University degree cost 2.000 € including public transportation (which is quite good here). No, I did not forget 0s. My Uni was even one of the more expensive ones.
hi bro I recently subscribed to your channel and I will say that I like your content and it is very useful but I have a question: can you do brute force training using Selenium? it would be useful for me
Just remember people: don’t be a sheep! If you need a degree for your vocation then get one. Many, many jobs still have a degree as a baseline requirement and will give you the boot if you don’t have one. Actually research what is best for you instead of blindly listening to the herd.
Degrees, generally speaking, are gatekeeping, an excuse for companies not to train, and a way to ensnare young people into debt. I studied a degree in a different industry, they barely taught what you needed to do a job there too. It's actually quite perverse. YOU pay to have the potential, not even a guarantee, of a job. When really society and companies should invest in us!
The ridiculous thing is after most degrees you end up having to get " trained" on the job 😂😂 ...quite dismal an affair that is. Half the taught material in college ( or more ) is utter putrid useless garbage.
For immigration with Computer science degree, Is the HND pathway degree better or a Thailand private university degree better? (Search Engine and LLM languages can't provide enough information) Thanks for reading.
"...a lot of other b***spit courses." A truism of many applied science degrees. The university system needs to be re-thought, especially the cost - which impacts all college education. BTW the 'shout-out' list includes (from the EE world) Steve Wozinak his achievements were accomplished outside the formal education system.
50 applicants for each position; 25 have a degree; 5 have some experience; 19 others and you, with just some stuff learn on youtube and some random sites. YH, you don't need a degree dude, relax! U gonna get that job all those college graduates are applying for!
Thanks for your story, but it seems like there are too many people opposing Computer Science degrees in videos nowadays. Because negativity gets clicks and so many people, like you, quit. You should encourage people to keep going. Self education takes a lot of drive, is lonely, and can be depressing if you fail.
