The Truth About HTMX 

I think it’s xylophone.

It's actually Xero

😂😅

Xactly

Its actually HTML Extended.

Yeah, it's excellent for b2b type software.

For your use case and your team*, otherwise fully agree

@@t3dotgg well yeah but some of us still don't have a team so…🤧

Sometimes you’re the one on a team and what was chosen wasn’t a good option lol

That is because a lot of devs are indeed an imposter and have learned to code like this: problem a = answer b, problem z1 = answer z2... etc. etc.. If u do this a lot u can indeed be an effective dev, just like how chatgpt looks convincing, it has "memorized" a lot of paths, this is not true engineering. A true engineer knows HOW and WHY answer b is correct. So instead of problem a = answer b, a true engineer will see problem a = answer, b1,b2,b3 and thinks in terms of pros/cons between each variant. Hate on me for being so direct, this is what IMO should be engineering, not being someone who is good in memorizing answers to problem, but actually understand the answers . A lot of devs are just not good engineers, and a lot of them will deliver good work, because actual good engineers made good libraries, because it can work, but correlation !== causation.

They are pissed off because they feel they missed the ship. It's stupid and childish, but most of us are.

We have lots of dashboards written using react. These are internal only. These are all being rewritten with htmx. JS/react Devs are moving to backend. We are moving souch quicker with our product.

​@RajinderYadav This sounds like cope. I've been using frontend frameworks since Backbone.js. Different problems require different tech. There is no such thing as a silver bullet.

Total cope. Just learn typescript and next.js and leave your ignorance behind. Stop building clunky & crappy interfaces. Level yourself up.

​@@imperi42 next.js has the shittiest dev experience ever.

​@RajinderYadav Mobile development? Probably with HTMX in the near future. It's hear to stay, being developed quickly, and, has already proved itself to me more than a "shitty half-baked solution".

This was very prominent back when jQuery, Backbone and Knockout were introduced. It made sense though; provide an API from backend then load state from backend and store it in the client. There's good reasons to do this, if optimistic updates is what you're after to make actions feel snappier than waiting for a roundtrip. Some actions (especially destructive ones) are best represented by loading indicators, others not so much. The source of truth should always come from the backend, though and you should be able to invalidate stale state.

Laravel can do that

@@coldestbeer Symfony > Laravel* * I don't actually know anymore PHP is a distant memory haha

“State belongs backend” is the part I never understand, can you explain your pov? To me there a million use cases with ephemeral state that should never touch backend until it “matters”, so you need the logic driving those on the frontend

Session, context and global stare comes to mind. And we created insane behemoths like redux toolkit to deal with it. I love the idea to just use htmx and vanilla js or some libs in the front for nice animations and transitions

Absolutely spot on. Django and HTMX are a dream combo. I've sprinkled in some Hyperscript too :)

Or just a dedicated plain vanilla JS vue component :-) which should be feasible for most OOP thinking backend engineers.

It’s always important to understand these things as solutions to specific problems. People often don’t “get it” because they simply don’t have that specific problem. But it can be useful to know what some of the solutions are so that if the problems come up you can be ready.

You are 110% wrong

​@@cristianbiluyou're welcome to elaborate

You mean dank X memes

But it have no javascript

Alpine works well with HTMX. It serves a different purpose.

This is the right mindset

This is great!

Have you tried something like svelte? I'm also a backend dev who sometimes has to write front end stuff and react literally feels like the Java of front-end frameworks, I would rather flip burgers than write react full-time, whereas svelte is a literal joy to work with.

handlebars.. shivers🥶

Yep, it will make just as much of mess...

As a data engineer, besides HTMX, you can use a Python tool like Django or Streamlit or Gradio etc. to build a UI if you ever need one. There are many such tools in Python, some of which are easy to use.

​@vcool Genuine question, as someone that uses Django and then bootstrap + cobbles together vanilla JS for front end...How does what you say deal with ajax and not having to reload the full dom?

@@vcool++ for Streamlit. If you are in a hurry you can skip worrying about client side vs server side as it is abstracted and you can focus on the immediate problems at hand. That being said you need to import streamlit extras and a few other things typically, and that's when you start noticing you are kind of limited. I've done some playing with FastAPI and HTMX, this seemed like a good intermediary step. Probably Django in that mix would be a sweet spot. Lastly would be something like Angular or React with FastAPI if you really need to support a lot of users concurrently and have a GUI that really stands out. All depends on your use case but for 90% of internal apps the tools you mention should get the job done.

You and me both! Working on a fairly involved VueJS project, that I unfortunately inherited, at the moment & it is a wild ride.. finding it so hard to debug, it’s a totally different world, with so much complication 🤯

You're going to need to know css if you use htmx - its just a mechanism for easily requesting and swapping html fragments into the page. HTML needs CSS so as to not look like a black and white grid. The main difference from react/js frameworks is the html part - you deliver fully formed html rather than json, which gets converted into html by the client side framework. Either way, you need css

Lol, these guys are so lost

I mean obviously I can deal well enough with CSS to know that I’m not going to be a very good frontend dev so that’s why I never bothered to dive deep into Frameworks like react. Obviously I know some CSS and it will be enough for a tool that only does one job and if I needed more, I would make sure to work with a fronted dev who knows their tools. It’s considered a strength to know what you’re good at at what you suck at

Yeah, most of what we need from front end (for a big complex app) is just for it to do things like make requests to the backend for filtering, sorting, and pagination, or to post a form and update the page, maybe switch out a class for styling, etc. The rest could just be simple vanilla JS. Using React/Angular/whatever-the-JS-framework-of-the-week-is-this-week is way too much overkill for that. Tons of bloat and dependency hell and added complexity for things that should be trivial. But that's how the industry has been going for awhile, like you're stuck organizing and driving an entire convoy of temperamental 18-wheelers just to go down to the corner store to pick up a soda. So it's nice to have a better alternative. Would like to see it get more industry uptake. For the cases where you're trying to recreate an entire office suite or photoshop or whatever in the browser, sure, pick something else. I agree that the front-end frameworks aren't really good for that either. Maybe a proper application compiled to webasm, if that's developed enough now, but I don't know as much about that.

By the way, I cant believe you can do a project with HTMX and not write any JavaScript-Code. In a simple todo-list-example it is possible for sure, but in reality they will be many cases when you have to customize things.

I think it's a useful wake up call to newer devs who don't have the experience of building websites the old fashioned way.

@@orderandchaos_at_work I think every web-developer (whether backend or frontend) should have in-depth knowledge of JavaScript - knowledge about the dom, the dom-api, event-handling and ajax. This is where every web-developer should start and it is not difficult. I would never hire any developer in a company for web-applications without knowledge about this things.

No one learns CSS properly these days. It makes me sad

Absolutely. These things existed, and we did them for decades. Its an entire spectrum. Htmx seems to just be a framework for what we were already doing anyway.

​@@MrManafoni think react guys can only look at things in react way 😅 Where are the jquery veterans?! 😂

I am from year 2036. Everyone is using PHP again. React is dead.

You gotta understand, this guy probably was like 12 back when everyone was using Wordpress and Jquery. Just like you never had to learn machine code, young devs now don't have to learn the hacks, the optimization, the other things. Everything is "good enough" for 95% of use cases.

@@SandraWantsCoke people never stopped using php. Like it or not, Php is and forever will be the king! 😁